The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
"I'm a little perplexed."
most normies are...
(how can you not be with all the bullshit that's flying around?)
Zen, attempting to clear up your confusion. There is a school of thought amongst many FNP that the Voice provides an acquiescence that will make the (legitimate) argument that sovereignty and treaty should be addressed before any enshrining of a Voice redundant. They argue pre-colonial Australia was a sovereign state of FNP and that as such they had a right to self determination that was never ceded by treaty, rather it was ignored and their land was illegally taken by the British. Under international legal principles understood today their argument carries weight, however impractical or radical implementing an outcome on those issues would be in modern Australia.
So there are two types of FNP taking the No position, right wing conservatives that includes the likes of Warren Mundine and Jacinta Price, advocates bought and paid for by the mining and fossil fuel barons seeking to protect their interests and then the other cohort regarded as radicals, that includes Lydia Thorpe and the Tent Embassy FNP who want sovereignty, treaty and self determination resolved first and regard the Voice as tacit approval to ignore those issues and is a means of assuaging white guilt not appeasing colonial injustices. So two groups both saying No but from totally opposite ends of the spectrum.
They both appear to be minorities amongst FNP, Albanese stated the other day that 80% of FNP support Yes which the ABC fact checkers said was correct, fwiw.
There's been so much bullshit, noise and divergent opinion on this issue that it's not surprising it could confuse an expat in Japan. It's only going to worsen as the vote approaches. Australians are the world's greatest procrastinators as well as the biggest gamblers. They won't only bet on two flies climbing a wall but will also argue endlessly about what type of fly it is or even if it is an fly at all, and as tbb states so eloquently above, they will often end up punching on before the flies reach the top.
It's going to be a wild ride to the vote and whatever way it falls, it won't end there. One positive is that these issues, our fractured history and FNP themselves have been thrust into the national spotlight and out of the shadow of ignorance and indifference that has cast over them for too long.
Good grief. None is so blind as he who will not see.
southernraw wrote:Indo, i actually read that one post of yours as a courtesy for you watching the link i posted.
Reading through your post, it quickly dawned on me, that what i can deduce about you, as a person, is that your heart is filled with fear and hatred.
There can be no other reason for the sickly way you spread your venom on this topic.
Anyway, go about your business.
A wise man or two above me a few posts ago, W.H and G.S and a coupla others have shone the light on the best way to deal with you and your energy.
#infoISthevoice
southernraw wrote:Supafreak wrote:Ha!
YES!
Nailed it!!
Thanks Supa.
Haha...
adam12 wrote:Zen, attempting to clear up your confusion. There is a school of thought amongst many FNP that the Voice provides an acquiescence that will make the (legitimate) argument that sovereignty and treaty should be addressed before any enshrining of a Voice redundant. They argue pre-colonial Australia was a sovereign state of FNP and that as such they had a right to self determination that was never ceded by treaty, rather it was ignored and their land was illegally taken by the British. Under international legal principles understood today their argument carries weight, however impractical or radical implementing an outcome on those issues would be in modern Australia.
So there are two types of FNP taking the No position, right wing conservatives that includes the likes of Warren Mundine and Jacinta Price, advocates bought and paid for by the mining and fossil fuel barons seeking to protect their interests and then the other cohort regarded as radicals, that includes Lydia Thorpe and the Tent Embassy FNP who want sovereignty, treaty and self determination resolved first and regard the Voice as tacit approval to ignore those issues and is a means of assuaging white guilt not appeasing colonial injustices. So two groups both saying No but from totally opposite ends of the spectrum.
They both appear to be minorities amongst FNP, Albanese stated the other day that 80% of FNP support Yes which the ABC fact checkers said was correct, fwiw.
There's been so much bullshit, noise and divergent opinion on this issue that it's not surprising it could confuse an expat in Japan. It's only going to worsen as the vote approaches. Australians are the world's greatest procrastinators as well as the biggest gamblers. They won't only bet on two flies climbing a wall but will also argue endlessly about what type of fly it is or even if it is an fly at all, and as tbb states so eloquently above, they will often end up punching on before the flies reach the top.
It's going to be a wild ride to the vote and whatever way it falls, it won't end there. One positive is that these issues, our fractured history and FNP themselves have been thrust into the national spotlight and out of the shadow of ignorance and indifference that has cast over them for too long.
Good comment and explanation...
x2. Great post a12
Agreed, great post, except the abc “fact checking” bit.. The abc only engages in political ideology confirmation bias.
adam12 wrote:Albanese stated the other day that 80% of FNP support Yes which the ABC fact checkers said was correct, fwiw.
.
gsco wrote:Agreed, great post, except the abc “fact checking” bit.. The abc only engages in political ideology confirmation bias.
Yep the two polls are based on very small numbers one 300 indigenous people see link below and another was from memory 300+ (i posted the figure the iother day)
Its kind of like Swellnet organising a poll on how many Australians surf and then giving you the link or promoting it coming back with 300 replies at 80% and saying 80% of Aussies surf.
Reality is we will never know because its impossible to get an accurate figure, its very clear that many indigenous people dont even know what its about.
https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/2023-01/Ipsos%20-%20TAPC%20Met...
Not going to bother with the misinformation about Jacinta and Warren, i will just let the racist view that all people of one race must think and act the same way pass through.
Well explained a12. If you want to cut through the noise zen just look to those affected most. I ignored pretty much everything in covid except what frontline health workers, and immune-compromised and elderly were calling for. Right or wrong, they wanted me to get a jab, so I got it and moved on with my day.
The 80%+ bell-in-the-curve of FNP certainly think the voice is the gesture they want, and believe it will do good. No brainer.
(what a pathetic joke to put the proof-of-yes-support onto FNPs, like saying 'most gay people don't even want marriage' = noise, noise, noise)
Again this is a more honest take on things
The organisation that does the videos seems to rank highly on Google (so been stablished some time) and be legit, not some site/group set up to deceive.
Centre for indigenous training
https://www.indigenoustraining.com.au/
Again my take is that the majority of those pushing the 'No' campaign really could not give a shit about the Voice. It is a political wedge, attack position for the LNP and their media mates primarily Murdoch (fark the front page of the Australian is pure propaganda shite) to attack Albo and the government.
The LNP never ever offer anything positive, but just create enemies and issues so they have an someone to attack, whether boat people, Muzzies, Unions, FNP, or woke commies and the list goes on. They have no decent policies to talk about so just wish to create division and fear. Bunch of wannabe seppo Republicans.
Agreed. Great post Adam12.
Also wanna pay tribute to TBBs post further above. TBB at his finest.
I.B, not sure if that's a dig at me? I've read your posts regarding NZ's issues on the topic and thought it a fair and balanced, and also valuable analysis of what's been going on there. It's a long way from the 15 paragraphs of 'opinion piece' that no one asked for from you know who.... so no dramas from me on your thoughts.
The funniest thing i got out of that SBS program was when they talked to some 12/13ish year old girls who had no idea what the referendum was about, gave them the run down, and one of the girls said simply, 'who would vote no?'.
Kids eh. Always seeing it for what it is.
@info often says words to the effect of “ … Jacinta and Warren, i will just let the racist view that all people of one race must think and act the same way pass through ….” in an attempt to discredit the rightful criticism of their Murdoch/IPA sponsorship/links. Perhaps he can explain the how this is so when the converse of his position is more accurate
tbb equally enjoys reading crew's comments & salutes all progression in this forum.
That includes largest contributor indo who is across Aboriginal affairs.
indo don't need to plead his case...he's explained his stance in detail.
indo brings more to the table than Albo + Dutto + Aboriginal ministers.
tbb is happy to share that coz the crew knows it's true!
There's a lot being swept under the carpet...
Prime examples being Oz voted 60.66% against First Nation in 1999 preamble.
ALP blamed Land tenure Typo (Howard = "Kinship with land" (vs) ALP ="Custodians of Land")
However! Parliament have ever since supported a Referendum on The Voice. (All report this!)
Scomo last promised to legislate The Voice by May 2022.
In fact March 2022 [L] Budget allows $160m for Referendum + $31.8m for Voice Bodies.
So in effect...
May 2022 Oz [L] voters already voted [Yes] for holding a Voice referendum + Voice Bodies...
[L] Alone argued for Voice Pamphlets $ 10.6m or they would not Vote for Referendum.
So! Again we see [L] Committing / Campaigning to further funding to sign off on their [L] Reffo.
Recap...
$200m [L] Voice Bill / approved & voted on...by Dutto who says he's against the Reffo...Huh!
No...it don't add up but none give a shit that Dr NO is addicted to Reffo Madness.
Already in too deep...
Further onto this...Despite Dutto doublespeak > [L] are #1 Voice Referendum Supporters.
Once again Dutto want's to own the Reffo...it's my baby...
Both [L] [NP] Mandate [NO] Vote in Reffo as Party Policy. ( Vote NO in [L] approved Reffo or else! )
[L] own & exploit this Reffo from head to toe & that will come back to bite them on the bum.
So why did Dutto mandate the NO vote...well that's easy...
Coz he had to agree to participate in Reffo...(Hence the Mandated NO)
Why! To enable [L] to state their NO case on his $10.6m AEC Brochure!
Why is it a problem for [L]...even if their NO vote gets up...
Voice Referendum Costs have blown out & [L] are most responsible for it!
Meaning...if NO vote gets up then Dutto must also cop the Bill.
Albo simply points & says pass the Bill to Dutto who despite saying he loathes it...sucked it dry!
Dutto shoulda boycotted the Reffo & distanced himself by allowing free vote for his tribe...
Not my bag...you all go do yer thing...but No...he fucking went in whole Hog & must cop the bill!
Noting...Dutto alone advocates The Voice Pamphlet be printed in Russian / Chinese.
Coz he alone wishes to instruct Russians / Chinese on how to alter our constitution Vote Yes / No.
Nope! None think of allowing the unthinkable...Russian casts deciding Vote for Aboriginal Voice!
Old Joe will flip in his grave...say wot! "Do we got Reds under our Beds & will they Vote for me!"
No matter yer Vote...both partie's policies commit to Legislating The Voice.
But now...both parties must equally share the bar tab...Dutto had an out on that but got greedy!
Bonus : Lost my Voice
NT Largest % of First Nation Voters 32%
Referendum locks out NT in Stately Majority Vote...(They only count in Oz tally)
Naturally Parliament / UN would insist on a preamble to give Largest Indigenous Pop equal Votes.
So if preamble gets up then NT have equal rights on the Score Board...A Legit Reffo...it not...it sucks!
Nope! So we gotta have an Unequal Vote to Vote on unequal Voting rights of Loudest Voice..
Did tbb miss something or did our Parliament get that back 2 front?
Double Bonus Score...
This week both ALP Albo / [L] Wyatt claim 40% of Aussies are Unsure...
In fact the early polls do reflect that total & recent poll shows 22% Unsure
Polls all allow for Unsure Vote
The Voice Referendum Vote [UNSURE] 40%
Just saying if ya want an honest vote...40% would easily out Poll either [NO] or [Yes]
Don't worry...you won't be asked to Vote fairly...still unsure?
We only know for sure that the result won't fairly reflect the will of the majority of Oz Voters
Did tbb miss something or did our PM get that wrong?
Only sitting Fed [L] [np] Vote [NO]
[L] Yes Voter Roll (Shh!)
[L] First Indigenous Fed Senator
[L] Former Aboriginal Affairs Minister
[L] Former Foreign Affairs Minister / Acting Oz PM
[L] Former PM
[L] Premier (Current) & Former Premiers
GuySmiley wrote:@info often says words to the effect of “ … Jacinta and Warren, i will just let the racist view that all people of one race must think and act the same way pass through ….” in an attempt to discredit the rightful criticism of their Murdoch/IPA sponsorship/links. Perhaps he can explain the how this is so when the converse of his position is more accurate
Watch the video above Guy it explains things perfectly
You need to get it through your tiny brain that one ethnic group doesn't all think and act the same way, you know how us white people can share different views, well its no different for indigenous folk.
And i really shouldn't have to point out the obvious AGAIN but conservative's are going to be supported by conservative media organisation's or think tanks, because they sure aren't going to be supported by media like the Guardian or ABC or Get Up are they?????
I mean FFS Jacinta even had to take legal action against the ABC for defamation in 2020-21, ABC settled out of the court and the ABC presenter even made a formal on air apology.
Dumai wrote:-3,278 Aboriginal corporations
-243 Native title bodies
-48 land councils
-35 Regional councils
-122 + Aboriginal agencies
-3 Advisory bodies
-145 Health organisations
-11 Indigenous Federal MPs
-12 Culturally important indigenous days
-Taxpayers give $33 BILLION annually for 984,000 people (3.8% of the population )
-Expenditure per person in 2012-2013 was $43,449 on Indigenous Australian compared to $20,900 on other Australians a ratio of 2.08 to 1 and increase from 1.95 in2009.Australian taxpayers spend at least $100 million a day on direct support for Indigenous Australians every year or $39.5 billion of direct government expenditure every.single.year.
The figures are based on the 2017 Indigenous Expenditure Report produced by the Productivity Comission.Source : Professor Matthew Bennet ,spokesman for the Sovereign Court of International Justice ( SCIJ ) and international Barrister with a 25 + year legal career and an expert on international law.
with all of this w.t.f. do we need a voice for?
imo nepotism and cronyism for the "elite" city fnp, rellies and mates on 6 figure salaries whingeing none stop...fo.
I'll be voting YES as will every Aboriginal person I have spoken to in my workplace. The main gripe that I and my Aboriginal colleagues have with the referendum is that it will be mostly Non-Aboriginal people (the majority of the Australian population) deciding whether Aboriginal people should have some say in policies that affect Aboriginal people.
sameaswas wrote:Dumai wrote:-3,278 Aboriginal corporations
-243 Native title bodies
-48 land councils
-35 Regional councils
-122 + Aboriginal agencies
-3 Advisory bodies
-145 Health organisations
-11 Indigenous Federal MPs
-12 Culturally important indigenous days
-Taxpayers give $33 BILLION annually for 984,000 people (3.8% of the population )
-Expenditure per person in 2012-2013 was $43,449 on Indigenous Australian compared to $20,900 on other Australians a ratio of 2.08 to 1 and increase from 1.95 in2009.Australian taxpayers spend at least $100 million a day on direct support for Indigenous Australians every year or $39.5 billion of direct government expenditure every.single.year.
The figures are based on the 2017 Indigenous Expenditure Report produced by the Productivity Comission.Source : Professor Matthew Bennet ,spokesman for the Sovereign Court of International Justice ( SCIJ ) and international Barrister with a 25 + year legal career and an expert on international law.with all of this w.t.f. do we need a voice for?
imo nepotism and cronyism for the "elite" city fnp, rellies and mates on 6 figure salaries whingeing none stop...fo.
Sameaswas. What language is that ? I see you can read, write, not so sure.
You sure are speedy at double digit typing, texting. i know your kind, you get the most minute info or background information on anything, whammo instant expert.
Another facsimile poster, we have a few, and in particular one.
Ill sit here awhile and await your reply.
Explain in 25 words or less, less in your case, what you know about the whole referendum for a Voice for Aboriginal people.
To use one of your abbreviations, so we are down on your level IMO, if you vote NO for a voice, why don’t you just leave the country .
Have you ever asked yourself why you live in Australia ? AW.
Let me put it another way @info, who on here has actually said that all FNP should act and think the same? As far as I’m aware no one has remotely mentioned that laughable idea except you in the context of defending their sponsorship/links to the far right and their media cheer squads. It’s entirely legitimate to question Price and CO’s motives and links to the far right’s campaign without then linking that to saying they should be on the same page as the vast majority of FNP.
southernraw wrote:Indo wrote 'Okay im just starting to see privileged successful indigenous now romantcing the past and being totally unrealistic, and just making excuses and talking shit'
Seriously, what is wrong with you?
I just watched the program. Indo, it’s concerning that this was your take on it (the comment SR highlighted). I only saw acknowledgment of past lives that must have been hard and plans to lift their mob up.
GuySmiley wrote:Let me put it another way @info, who on here has actually said that all FNP should act and think the same? As far as I’m aware no one has remotely mentioned that laughable idea except you in the context of defending their sponsorship/links to the far right and their media cheer squads. It’s entirely legitimate to question Price and CO’s motives and links to the far right’s campaign without then linking that to saying they should be on the same page as the vast majority of FNP.
Are you really that stupid?
Mate why cant you get it through your thick head that its natural that conservative media and think tanks support conservatives????
In exactly the same way left leaning media and think takes etc support left leaning media.
Do you see me complaining that Get up support's Labor?
I only complain about ABC favourable bias towards labor and issues like the voice, because its a tax payer funded media outlet, that suppose to be impartial.
And yes, sorry but this whole narrative that you and others always push is people like Jacinta and Warren only hold the views they do because of some conspiracy theory that they get paid too otherwise they would be left wing wanna be victims wollowing in self pity.
Not even going to bother with your idea of what far right is...FFS.
sameaswas wrote:Dumai wrote:-3,278 Aboriginal corporations
-243 Native title bodies
-48 land councils
-35 Regional councils
-122 + Aboriginal agencies
-3 Advisory bodies
-145 Health organisations
-11 Indigenous Federal MPs
-12 Culturally important indigenous days
-Taxpayers give $33 BILLION annually for 984,000 people (3.8% of the population )
-Expenditure per person in 2012-2013 was $43,449 on Indigenous Australian compared to $20,900 on other Australians a ratio of 2.08 to 1 and increase from 1.95 in2009.Australian taxpayers spend at least $100 million a day on direct support for Indigenous Australians every year or $39.5 billion of direct government expenditure every.single.year.
The figures are based on the 2017 Indigenous Expenditure Report produced by the Productivity Comission.Source : Professor Matthew Bennet ,spokesman for the Sovereign Court of International Justice ( SCIJ ) and international Barrister with a 25 + year legal career and an expert on international law.with all of this w.t.f. do we need a voice for?
imo nepotism and cronyism for the "elite" city fnp, rellies and mates on 6 figure salaries whingeing none stop...fo.
This video is basically a similar take on your post.
Its a complete lie that indigenous people don't have a voice or say in things that affect them.
&t=56s @info, to my point, it is NOT racist to question the motives and links Price and Mundine have with the far right as you have often accused their critics here.
Irony alert!
“ … imo nepotism and cronyism for the "elite" city fnp …..”
To which @ info posts a link to a Gold Coast /Brisbane based Aboriginal training institution selling cross cultural awareness training directed at whom precisely?? FFS, based on the Gold Coast and Brisbane!!
@ Guy
I really don't know why you bother picking these silly arguments with me, at least this is just the same old same old one, we have done before.
It cant get any worse than last weeks plant ID one, that one was just ridiculous, at least it did lead to an interest thread though.
And we learnt the plant ID skills are probably above average with Swellnet crew, even dare i say yours and AlfredWallace native plant Id is very impressive.
Anyway apologies for the name calling, i shouldn't do that, it just creates an environment where other's start doing it too and the thread then gets out of control and shut down.
We need to pace ourselves on this, we dont even have a date yet, plenty of time yet to get real loose and abusive..
Yeah, the indigenous training is an odd one, havent dug around the website yet, at least the guy clearly has some recent indigenous heritage though and seems to be a well established business (not fake set up just for this issue), anyway i think the videos are good.
Guy fir someone who tells other people to not reply to Indo, he’s got you hook line and sinker today! You can’t stop replying to him!
I’m picturing the frustration on your face with every reply ha ha ha
Sadly I have my moments GF when my bull dust metre forces me to comment but my preference is to leave Info to his own devices, yes I know it’s hard to believe!
ha ha i do find that funny, Guy always chrips in "dont talk to him, i dont know why you guys bother" but then follows me around like a lost puppy, looking to debate any post i post.
Also had a giggle that Southern raw yesterday claimed not to read my post etc then gets all upset about them, doh.
I get these picture's in my head, of kids when they do that whole "im not talking to you" you just talked to me "starting now"
Argh its all good..
Worth listening to the interview with the eminent archeologist and anthropologist Dr Scott Cane, at the bottom of the following page. His list of pertinent works and experiences are huge, and he was former Principal Archaeologist with the prestigious Australian National University.
https://www.caama.com.au/2021/08/23/is-this-the-most-significant-legacy-...
Dr Cane has also done presentations with Bruce Pascoe, and vigorously supports his work.
He features in the excellent, extremely revealing and educational documentary series, First Footprints (37min 50 sec mark of part 2), and also authored the book ‘First Footprints’.
In one of his presentations with Bruce Pascoe, it was interesting to hear Dr Cane address then South Australian Premier Steven Marshall, who was responsible for Indigenous Affairs, and highlight his obvious lack of knowledge about Indigenous Australians. Marshall took it very well, admitting that he had much to learn and that he was very enlightened and impressed by the facts presented.
What was also interesting was Dr Cane talking about his long experience regarding dates that the Indigenous Australians were here before invasion. He said that once huge arguments took place with suggestions of 10,000 years, many saying it was ridiculous, then, next, 15000 years, same thing, many in the field refusing to accept it, then 20,000, and so on and so on, until now 50 - 60,000 years is the proven date. He felt 65,000 was the final date, but he laughed heartily as he said it, because he quickly acknowledged that there is a push more towards 80,000.
Very well said overthefalls, I hope this post gives you much hope and support.
Enjoy.
GuySmiley was right to call out the Play School Vidz...[Centre for Indigenous Training]
All one way traffic...What about Constitutional Recognition...
Wes : 'Wot about it mate!'
All recall Howard grooming Anglo Dux AJ to boss CSIRO > Bully BOM to allow US to run our Matrix.
Howard also groomed Wesley Aird thru Duntroon Royal Military College
That's the Qldurr in the Vidz...
Seemingly groomed overlords to run fake Authorities to oversee & stall First Nation Land claims.
http://www.kooriweb.org/foley/news/2000s/2006/september/aust16sep06.html
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/news/australian-government-announcement...
First Aboriginal to meet Johnnie's approval becoming the PM's first loyal lap dog.
He ain't gonna bite the hand that groomed him!
In regard to GuySmiley...Goldie/Brizo snub...guess tbb asked for that.
No secret tbb kicked cousin Dan in the shins then shared our psychopathic Qldurr'z Voice auditions.
In this case GuySmiley sussed out the Blowin.
True! Wesley Aird is seen as an opportunist around the Goldie.
Goldie Dillon's were set in their way when this blowin, overlords the City Claim...mine now! Precious!
Almost like Howard sent him & other Mob bots to launch & stall forever all native title claims.
Swap you a Casino for a cultural Centre on The Spit..."Cool! We both get what we want!" ('Hey guys!')
So wotz it about...
Wesley follows the money trail...
Example : Wesley wanted to copyright the local mob's Com Games...Borobi
Local Mob said it was a Reconciliation Gift for the People...
Wes : "Pigs Arse! That's my local Koala & therefore my Copyright!"
Can imagine wot local Mob said...#@*% Off!
Basically appointed himself as Jabree (Company) Trad Owner of Goldie (He can do that..ask Johnnie!)
Allows him to trophy Hunt ~ creating a Showcase of Culture...Why a showcase!
QPAQ A List (Performing Arts) Power Couple : Wesley Aird / Rebecca White
https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/f595a75d46bc51a7aed9a08bbdbf518a
tbb is not being rude...that's how they're introduced.
Johnnie knighted Wes as King of Goldie & King of Qld First Nation Culture
Why!
Don't think the crew needs tbb to explain how PM Johnnie can appoint King of Qld Mob!
Don't need to ask which A list Vote Roll Wes is on...
Politics aside ~
As said...Jabree does trophy hunt & that's got some perks for local history..
Jabree website does share discovery & meaning of local artifacts & sites.
It don't matter if they're not understanding of all ...
eg: They have asked for assist on local Talle fish trap/s...
tbb has studied these traps & may yet assist in that regard.
Can add quite a bit of story to Ceremony / Trap size / placement / access, even ceremony Fish.
So long as it assists local saltwater crew & not transferred to Bne Arts centre forecourt.
Thanks Bud1
That first episode was bonkas. Amazed at the excavated rock shelter and the incredible art adorning the ceiling. Then the face engravings at Murujuga. Wow!!
TBB, are you saying Wes is another conservative stooge?
Ok! seeds...good call...Indigenous Qldurrz boss these Howard Think Tanks, so we gotta put out.
tbb did drag it out onto the table so that's a Fair Cop!
Wesley Aird continued...
He's Duntroon, but also a member of the Bennelong Society Board
Aboriginal Society promotes Assimilation by discrediting all Land Rights & Self Determination.
ONE OF US ONE OF US ONE OF US!
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Bennelong_Society
2004 Howard groomed him for NIC Intervention > Started under Vanstone
Sue Gordon Anti Apologist was the Chair (1st Aboriginal WA Magistrate > Kids Court)
Gotta remember this was the start of the Save the Kids on the Missions...
Pretty sure Sue tabled "Kidz Report" which stoked the Intervention...just saying it rings a bell!
Chosen because 1st Phase was Indigenous Health & Kidz Focus > Wes was always Deputy if ya like!
NIC Facts for Kids...(Yeah! So Howard's a Kook...just go with it!)
https://kids.kiddle.co/National_Indigenous_Council
Nov 2006 Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal said he's sorry for not taking order's from Johnnie's hit squad.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/brough-apologises-to-indigenous-council-...
Dec 2006 NIC > crew may recall the infighting were tearing them apart...(Check the egos in Line up)
Media were pointing out it was merely a "Conservative Kitchen Cabinet."
https://newmatilda.com/2006/12/20/nic-knackered/
Sept 2007 Howard's crack NIC Team launches Intervention "Bennelong Assimilation" ONE OF US!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Territory_National_Emergency_Resp...
2004-2008 ALP winds up Howard's NIC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Indigenous_Council
See also : AEC Aboriginal Employment Covenant...
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Australian_Employment_Covenant
Twiggy's Star Chamber : Marcia / Wazza / Wes / Noel / Mundine + Team.
Pledge 50,000 jobs / 2 years > [Reality Check] : AEC tally 2,800 / 50,000 jobs.
https://caepr.cass.anu.edu.au/research/publications/corporate-initiative...
Jan 2008 Wiki (Above) says Jenny wrapped up NIC
tbb thinks Jenny only "Called" for the end but it went on further...until legals sorted appointments.
June 2008 ALP Intervention Review...possibly here an interim team moved in!
Also recall many board members were retained in some manner...there was debate & board stood firm.
Reckon Jenny just removed the Hard Core Libs...
There was some argument over this...as existing board said established Civic links should remain.
Think the crew will remember it dragged out for a while with some Board mixed into Regional bodies.
Aug 2009 Report for new Model
TBB the John Pilger of SN.
GS loves the Gold Coast, Bris Vages and especially FNQ but as they say there’s only one thing wrong with France and that is its full of the French!!
overthefalls wrote:I'll be voting YES as will every Aboriginal person I have spoken to in my workplace. The main gripe that I and my Aboriginal colleagues have with the referendum is that it will be mostly Non-Aboriginal people (the majority of the Australian population) deciding whether Aboriginal people should have some say in policies that affect Aboriginal people.
OTF. Succinct and to the point. I’m hearing you. I/we hope it all goes the right way, time will tell, I’m in your corner.AW
OTF spot on "it will be mostly Non-Aboriginal people (the majority of the Australian population) deciding whether Aboriginal people should have some say in policies that affect Aboriginal people".
I think it is pertinent to note that the 2021 Census showed 48.2 per cent of Australians have a parent born overseas. As that % of Australian population increases, if the referendum fails this time then the likelihood of it ever been resurrected again in the future is almost nil. Last chance IMO.
As has been noted in a few posts above, why do these Indigenous pricks need one voice!!??
They already have lots of little voices. Isn't that enough??
Anyway, that cave looks pretty useless. Lets blow it up. Progress. Nations gotta keep moving forward somehow. There's money to be made dammit!
In all seriousness, this is fucking outrageous.
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/wa-to-backflip-on-controversial-abo...
truebluebasher wrote:Ok! seeds...good call...Indigenous Qldurrz boss these Howard Think Tanks, so we gotta put out.
tbb did drag it out onto the table so that's a Fair Cop!Wesley Aird continued...
He's Duntroon, but also a member of the Bennelong Society Board
Aboriginal Society promotes Assimilation by discrediting all Land Rights & Self Determination.
ONE OF US ONE OF US ONE OF US!
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Bennelong_Society2004 Howard groomed him for NIC Intervention > Started under Vanstone
Sue Gordon Anti Apologist was the Chair (1st Aboriginal WA Magistrate > Kids Court)
Gotta remember this was the start of the Save the Kids on the Missions...
Pretty sure Sue tabled "Kidz Report" which stoked the Intervention...just saying it rings a bell!
Chosen because 1st Phase was Indigenous Health & Kidz Focus > Wes was always Deputy if ya like!
NIC Facts for Kids...(Yeah! So Howard's a Kook...just go with it!)
https://kids.kiddle.co/National_Indigenous_CouncilNov 2006 Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal said he's sorry for not taking order's from Johnnie's hit squad.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/brough-apologises-to-indigenous-council-...Dec 2006 NIC > crew may recall the infighting were tearing them apart...(Check the egos in Line up)
Media were pointing out it was merely a "Conservative Kitchen Cabinet."
https://newmatilda.com/2006/12/20/nic-knackered/Sept 2007 Howard's crack NIC Team launches Intervention "Bennelong Assimilation" ONE OF US!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Territory_National_Emergency_Resp...2004-2008 ALP winds up Howard's NIC
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Indigenous_CouncilSee also : AEC Aboriginal Employment Covenant...
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Australian_Employment_Covenant
Twiggy's Star Chamber : Marcia / Wazza / Wes / Noel / Mundine + Team.
Pledge 50,000 jobs / 2 years > [Reality Check] : AEC tally 2,800 / 50,000 jobs.
https://caepr.cass.anu.edu.au/research/publications/corporate-initiative...Jan 2008 Wiki (Above) says Jenny wrapped up NIC
tbb thinks Jenny only "Called" for the end but it went on further...until legals sorted appointments.
June 2008 ALP Intervention Review...possibly here an interim team moved in!
Also recall many board members were retained in some manner...there was debate & board stood firm.
Reckon Jenny just removed the Hard Core Libs...
There was some argument over this...as existing board said established Civic links should remain.
Think the crew will remember it dragged out for a while with some Board mixed into Regional bodies.
Aug 2009 Report for new Model
Hhmmm I’m still confused, TBB. Could you possibly elaborate. Hahaha
Onya champ!! Question answered.
southernraw wrote:As has been noted in a few posts above, why do these Indigenous pricks need one voice!!??
They already have lots of little voices. Isn't that enough??
Anyway, that cave looks pretty useless. Lets blow it up. Progress. Nations gotta keep moving forward somehow. There's money to be made dammit!
In all seriousness, this is fucking outrageous.
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/wa-to-backflip-on-controversial-abo...
Southernraw, heard that earlier this morning, doesn’t surprise me at all. WA is not run by people and politicians, it’s run by businesses. So, it backs my point i made several years ago, nothings changed at all, still treating aboriginal people like shit in all aspects of their lives.
And all these so called Twiggy Forest, Gina LardArse and other companies like theirs, boast of programs, where they announce themselves as great corporate citizens, when in reality they are shrewd business people who are reactive to public opinion and not proactive when it comes to treating serious matters pertaining to aboriginal peoples lives and past history.
Those business people I’ve mentioned are just a few who often offer large amounts of money, amounts of like 75-100 million to all menagerie of programs for aboriginal people. They just don’t get it, money is not what they want, it’s their land and ancestry they value. Both are being torn apart on a daily basis and mostly shipped overseas .Besides that, those amounts are a piss in the ocean compared to the billions they make, it’s a joke.
These WA businesses sure use the media when they purport to offer these amounts of money, because “look at me, I’m a great corporate citizen”. It’s all smoke and mirrors.
How would most Australians react if i attended Gallipoli and dug up every grave in Lone Pine, Baby 500 etc. cemeteries, albeit a very very small time frame of history, its still history.
It amazes how many people in our nation wear historical ’blinkers’.
What is wrong with us ? (Australians)
I rest my case. AW
This is a dark day in Australian history.
Labor and Liberal are one and the same over here.
Only interested in appeasing the big mining companies.
This reeks of passing a heritage law at the time to appear to be doing something, all the while knowing they were going to scrap it in the longrun to serve the interests of the powerful.
Also has whiffs of a panicked government and mining groups who see the inevitable Yes vote getting up and their hands being tied on raping and pillaging the land.
Pretty damn sad news and has definitely put a bee in my bonnet today.
https://www.seymourtelegraph.com.au/national/wa-to-scrap-heritage-laws-w...
Cheers AW. Well put.
Yep, no surprises Lardarse Reinhardt was one of the more vocal opponents to it.
Its fucked.
seaslug wrote:OTF spot on "it will be mostly Non-Aboriginal people (the majority of the Australian population) deciding whether Aboriginal people should have some say in policies that affect Aboriginal people".
What a weird thing to say, imagine suggesting the opposite and suggesting only non indigenous people should have a say on non indigenous issues.
Not to mention decision's made in regard to indigenous issue's often affect non indigenous people too (and vice versa), in all kinds of ways, great example is the new laws in WA .
And of course almost all the money raised spent on indigenous issues is money paid by non indigenous people and companies, its only fair in a democracy people have some say in how the money is spent.
Current system is completely fair, in a true democracy all citizens of a legal age should have a say, one country, one people, one system for all.
BTW. to say "some say" is false, indigenous people already have a say in issues that affect them via a long list of means, the voice would be just another in that long list and those who are against it being implemented in policy (not constitution) are a tiny minority not that it needs to be voted on to be put in policy anyway, it could have been operating not long after Albo got voted in if he wanted and we could see how magical it is.
BTW. The irony of some of the above post, seeing mining is ONE OF the biggest employer's of indigenous people, and POSSIBLY the biggest in remote regions where the major issues are, and not petty cash McDonalds type jobs either.
Not to mention the money/income mining companies pay on land leases or even road access etc,
Wilhelm Scream wrote:#One For The SN (Relative) Newbies
#Millionth Times A Charm
@basesix
Sorry mate i wont be bullied into being silenced, by silly nonsense meme's, poke me with a stick and i will just post more.
Haha. Yep!!! @basesix
"i wont be bullied into being silenced, by silly nonsense meme's, poke me with a stick and i will just post more."
karen?.. that you?
Whatever you do, don't poke the chihuahua.
funny, I think the WA backdown/backflip thingy is the smartest thing an incompetent hubris filled contemporay labor has ever done...
rolling it out - right at this time- was either fanciful, just plain stupid, or gross oversight at best
it's own architects and advocates have admitted they "botched it" - a pretty frank assessment in the current climate
...in a political era of absolutely ridiculous political spin, where no one acknowledges error, fault, or even reality - this was a refreshingly pragmatic practical move, where the 'hubes' dropped the hubris for once, in a fleeting moment of rare self refletion...
a little moment of sacrificing the baby to save the village from my perspective
that's not to say some change to these laws isn't needed
but this rollout was a fuck up of mammoth proportions
Yes AW and SR, unfortunately a predictable situation has occurred in WA.
‘They just don’t get it, money is not what they want, it’s their land and ancestry they value. Both are being torn apart on a daily basis and mostly shipped overseas’
Which is why I invite people to really listen to widely respected Dr Cane’s conclusions in his interview at the bottom of the following page, and view the videos on the previous page, videos which feature numerous national and international experts. Conclusions that Dr Cane came to after many decades of study, in depth, wide spread experience, and consultation and discussion with numerous experts.
https://www.caama.com.au/2021/08/23/is-this-the-most-significant-legacy-...
When truly listening to and watching the videos, and understanding as Dr Cane says, the ‘profound’ ‘vastness’ of Indigenous connection to the land, and the stunning success story, it requires ‘a certain amount of intellectual input and alertness on behalf of the listener’. Then the seriousness of saying yes to ‘The Voice’, becomes obvious, as SR and AW highlight, it adds a glaringly, drastically, easily demonstrated as missing, new, protective element to an environment that we all share, and would do well to learn to cherish. It also shows and expresses intellectual flexibility and adaptability, towards shaping a much more contemporary, usefull and successfull ‘constitution’.
There is a contemporary, umbrella terminology that has emerged, ‘environmental apartheid’. What it encompasses is the example of SR’s link.
https://www.seymourtelegraph.com.au/national/wa-to-scrap-heritage-laws-w...
Also tangibly and beautifully highlighted by flollo and I-D in another thread, where he and I-D openly lament wanting to do something in, and about the new, human shaped environment, but simply being unable to afford it. About being priced out. The whole scenario described, including the arguments re effectiveness etc, etc, reduce to, the joy of ‘darwinian capitalism’ in action.
‘This doesn’t make sense to me. Sure, you can charge at home for cheaper, offset with solar panels etc. But that’s obviously not a scalable model. It’s easier for large house homeowners who have the space and can do whatever they want with their homes. But renters, people living in units etc will struggle to find meaning in the EV market. Not sure what the strategy is here but I’m personally struggling to understand it.‘
‘The other concern is re sale vale.’
‘Id love an EV, but the cost is the issue.‘
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28