The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Alfred, why not just have a break and come back down the track, too many have left already for similar reasons or have been banned for cracking it big time in frustration.
Kind of pointless replying to individual comment's here.
But i will make some things clear again on my thoughts.
Reality is Indigenous people in remote and even regional areas, need employment, education and all the other services other Australians benefit from, without this the gap will never close and the cycle of issues will continue.
I dont have the answers to how to solve this, but have made some suggestions that might help in a small way, on things like mining operations having to employee and train locals where possible (local being anyone living in 1,000km or 5,000km or whatever of a mine site) or a program where Indigenous people are given the opportunity to be financially supported to move to somewhere where these services exists.
Yeah the problem is it takes them away from country and even family, but at least they should have the option available to them.
In regards to the focus on violence, the hard reality is it's one of if not the biggest problem that faces indigenous people at least in remote areas hence why some communities have even banned alcohol, it's not the actually alcohol itself thats the issue it's the violence that comes as a result from the alcohol, violence is also a huge reason to why indigenous people have such high incarceration rates compared to the rest of the population.
In regard to what part culture plays a part, well if you think it doesn't play a role then hey you're free to believe that, but I'm going to go with all the evidence that shows it plays some part.
Does that mean every aspect of indigenous culture is a negative, OF COURSE NOT, just like any culture there is positive aspects and negative aspects, the aim should be to preserve the good parts and do away with the negative aspects, but i guess if you dont believe there is negative aspects then yeah that might be problematic.
Anyway if some people want to think I'm racist or whatever because of these views then well obviously it's not ideal nobody wants to be labeled a racist, but end of the day it doesn't mater what some guy i dont know online thinks, whats more important is how those that really know me feel especially people of colour, and generally speaking i tend to bond better with people of colour and people of other cultures than white folk, I'm not sure why i think its because my mother lived in Africa and Fiji and was the kid that was frowned done on because she made friends with all the locals so i was brought up with a very multicultural view of the world, even if i wasn't a surfer and hadn't fallen in love with Indo then an Indonesian lady, id still highly likely hook up with someone from another culture and most likely of colour, who knows it might have even been an indigenous Australian lady.
GuySmiley wrote:Alfred, why not just have a break and come back down the track, too many have left already for similar reasons or have been banned for cracking it big time in frustration.
GuySmiley.Immersed myself in water, feel reinvigorated , couldn’t leave you two to carry on the stoush with the ‘head in the sand’ or ‘nothing to see here people, move right along’ folks. Yeah, I’m back, but so is that remora. He must have never got his way as a little kiddie, must have been the runt of the litter. Sure making up for it now with the 100% ‘look & listen to me’ at all times. I laugh, he’s just reminding us for the 100th time that he’s expressing his view again, oh, in case we didn’t understand it the first time. Totally comical. If you dont share our views. Why do you keep responding ?You’d have to be the ‘Zealot of the Century’.
Take a good break off mate and come nice and fresh, cheers
A whitefella who admits he has no answers but is freely pointing out his version of what the problem with blackfellas is, i.e. their culture, is fucken straight up racist in my opinion.
I don't give a fuck how you frame it, or how many "people of colour" you befriend.
adam12 wrote:A whitefella who admits he has no answers but is freely pointing out his version of what the problem with blackfellas is, i.e. their culture, is fucken straight up racist in my opinion.
I don't give a fuck how you frame it, or how many "people of colour" you befriend.
Tick, my friend. They just look through (their own) rose coloured glasses.
adam12 wrote:A whitefella who admits he has no answers but is freely pointing out his version of what the problem with blackfellas is, i.e. their culture, is fucken straight up racist in my opinion.
I don't give a fuck how you frame it, or how many "people of colour" you befriend.
Sorry once again it's not just my opinion it's the opinion of all kinds of people including some Indigenous leaders, there has even been books written on the topic. (written by people who have worked with indigenous people and like myself have absolutely no ill will towards indigenous people)
To believe there is absolutely no culture element is pure ignorance Payback in the form of violence still happens today in some areas and even even Promised brides still happen in some communities, i even provided an article on page 31 where a NT ¬Supreme Court judge that deals with incidents of violence everyday highlighted the cultural links, your basically calling all these people racist.
The debate should be more about to what degree culture is a factor and what degree other aspects are a factor, and then of course things like alcohol and lack of purpose/direction/employment are just like throwing petrol on a fire.
To be honest id love to give this thread a rest as it's all been said, Iike i said before if you want me to shut up because the things i say are too confronting for you, don't reply to my comments, because just calling me names won't work, it's more likely to trigger a reply from me.
Groundhog Day
Great movie, shit topic.
stunet wrote:GuySmiley wrote:This "tough love" notion @stu, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you serious?
I understand there's a great many people who'd like Aboriginal culture to soak in formaldehyde and remain frozen in time forever - speaking metaphorically of course. Yet like it or not, Aboriginal folk - individually and whole communities - have to find a way to plug into the Capitalist system if they are to succeed.
The crunch, of course, is that it's at odds with their traditional way of life hence we arrive at the intersection of two great civilisations and the challenge of how to mesh them together. I'm not sure we can count the progress so far as a success, therefore I think, as in all significant negotiations, all options should be on the table.
.
I think this actually hits on the real uneasy part of this discussion. Culture.
My original post was aimed at rethinking the perspective from a white fella and the framework of our current society, 200 plus years post settlement.
Something i note in Indo's posts is the continual need in his eyes, for Indigenous culture to be abandoned so as to move into the more successful and prosperous whitefella culture.
But who says this culture is the correct one? And how can we, as the invader (historically speaking) proclaim our culture is the superior one on stolen land and force assimilation to those it was stolen from. Morally, shouldn't it be the other way around? Should we not be the ones embracing Indigenous culture and offering our own culture, but not forcing it?
This was the reason i wrote this. How do we go about merging two cultures and allowing ourselves to question our very own culture and if it is indeed the right way to live, on someone elses land.
And one last thought. I hear that statement, 'close the gap' and i find that the most intolerable and degrading catchphrase of the lot. When the system is set up with the foundations in colonialism, what gap is there to close except to force assimilation or be damned??
Lastly, why do Indigenous Australians have to find ways to 'plug into the capitalist system' when it was introduced to this country from a foreign entity in the first place.
There is surely middle ground here, but in my opinion, which may be wrong, but it has always seemed to me it's all one way traffic and hence, therein lies all the current problems we have.
Paul McD wrote:stunet wrote:GuySmiley wrote:This "tough love" notion @stu, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you serious?
I understand there's a great many people who'd like Aboriginal culture to soak in formaldehyde and remain frozen in time forever - speaking metaphorically of course. Yet like it or not, Aboriginal folk - individually and whole communities - have to find a way to plug into the Capitalist system if they are to succeed.
The crunch, of course, is that it's at odds with their traditional way of life hence we arrive at the intersection of two great civilisations and the challenge of how to mesh them together. I'm not sure we can count the progress so far as a success, therefore I think, as in all significant negotiations, all options should be on the table.
.I think this actually hits on the real uneasy part of this discussion. Culture.
My original post was aimed at rethinking the perspective from a white fella and the framework of our current society, 200 plus years post settlement.
Something i note in Indo's posts is the continual need in his eyes, for Indigenous culture to be abandoned so as to move into the more successful and prosperous whitefella culture.
But who says this culture is the correct one? And how can we, as the invader (historically speaking) proclaim our culture is the superior one on stolen land and force assimilation to those it was stolen from. Morally, shouldn't it be the other way around? Should we not be the ones embracing Indigenous culture and offering our own culture, but not forcing it?
This was the reason i wrote this. How do we go about merging two cultures and allowing ourselves to question our very own culture and if it is indeed the right way to live, on someone elses land.
And one last thought. I hear that statement, 'close the gap' and i find that the most intolerable and degrading catchphrase of the lot. When the system is set up with the foundations in colonialism, what gap is there to close except to force assimilation or be damned??
Lastly, why do Indigenous Australians have to find ways to 'plug into the capitalist system' when it was introduced to this country from a foreign entity in the first place.
There is surely middle ground here, but in my opinion, which may be wrong, but it has always seemed to me it's all one way traffic and hence, therein lies all the current problems we have.
PaulMcD. Hi.mate. It’s a slow grind with this lot. I was flabbergasted by Stu’s comment suggesting that indigenous Australians need to plug in to our so called successful ‘capitalistic system’ yeah, look how well thats done. Half of Australia are filthy rich, the other half incredibly poor, cost of houses, cost of living, basically most families by Friday of each working week need $2K on the kitchen bench to cover all expenses, most don’t even earn anywhere near half that, so its real GREAT.
And to Mr. Cut & Paster, yes, you know who you are. If you’ve ever worked, lived, travelled through N.T. you’d think you were in a Western cowboy movie. Cops look like and behave like cowboys and you reckon those judges in court aren’t racist, give me break. Years ago i was filling up with fuel at a well know roadhouse in N.T., at the pump, two coppers had just finished abusing the fuck out of 3 male aborigines who drove off, one cop turned to me and said ‘they are a fucking chore everyday of the week’ . i said nothing and it just reinforced what i already new, most white people in that state do not like aboriginal people. They kick them, beat them and treat them with scant regard. I suggest many of our readers take a safe holiday in your camper and open your eyes to what’s really going on.
AlfredWallace wrote:I was flabbergasted by Stu’s comment suggesting that indigenous Australians need to plug in to our so called successful ‘capitalistic system’ .
AlfredWallace wrote:Years ago i was filling up with fuel at a well known roadhouse in N.T.
What did you use to pay for your petrol?
Great thought provoking questions Paul, as a frequent visitor to NZ I see the mutual respect of western and Maori cultures you allude to. Perhaps I’m over cooking my tourist experience but NZ’s embracing of their indigenous culture seems decades ahead of AU .... perhaps with the new Labor govt ??
Stu. Cabbage leaves. What a silly question . Another reminder of disparaging behaviour. In 1984 halfway between Geraldton and Kalbarri, all traffic stopped for bitumen works, about a 20 min wait, usual road crew also including 3 or 4 aboriginal lads working away, whilst in the long line of traffic in very hot conditions , the profanities and insulting remarks coming out of the windows directed towards the aboriginal lads was beyond disgusting. I played football in southern WA a year or so before, many a time against teams where the entire team were Aboriginal lads, always great fun and fucking good at their craft, how they even played was beyond me, the despicable language from over the fence was bordering on cruelty.
And you wonder why they don’t want any part of our system Stu, they’ve been ridiculed from day dot, nothing has changed at all. No one here can convince me otherwise.
AlfredWallace wrote:And you wonder why they don’t want any part of our system Stu, they’ve been ridiculed from day dot, nothing has changed at all. No one here can convince me otherwise.
Mate, stop for a moment. You're a whitefella saying every blackfella rejects the current economic system.
Could you be any more arrogant?
EDIT: I regret ever piping up in this thread. Done. The Sanctimony Train can roll on without me.
AlfredWallace wrote:Stu. Cabbage leaves. What a silly question . Another reminder of disparaging behaviour. In 1984 halfway between Geraldton and Kalbarri, all traffic stopped for bitumen works, about a 20 min wait, usual road crew also including 3 or 4 aboriginal lads working away, whilst in the long line of traffic in very hot conditions , the profanities and insulting remarks coming out of the windows directed towards the aboriginal lads was beyond disgusting. I played football in southern WA a year or so before, many a time against teams where the entire team were Aboriginal lads, always great fun and fucking good at their craft, how they even played was beyond me, the despicable language from over the fence was bordering on cruelty.
And you wonder why they don’t want any part of our system Stu, they’ve been ridiculed from day dot, nothing has changed at all. No one here can convince me otherwise.
1984?????? ???????????
stunet wrote:AlfredWallace wrote:I was flabbergasted by Stu’s comment suggesting that indigenous Australians need to plug in to our so called successful ‘capitalistic system’ .
AlfredWallace wrote:Years ago i was filling up with fuel at a well known roadhouse in N.T.
What did you use to pay for your petrol?
exactly!
whilst I'd argue most commenters on here are hardly defenders of the capitalist system...
the endless conga line of cultural cringers / system deteactors on here - probably now for over 8 years or more - have fundamentally failed to offer any alternatives...
anything at all!
aside from vague claims 90 % of australians (non indigenous) should/need to adopt an aboriginal culture and system... they have nothing...
when asked how they might see this system / blend of systems manifest... they have nothing...
when asked to define 'structural racism'... they have nothing...
what are the rest of australia to think?
how can we put trust in such ill formed idealism as a way forward?
are we to adopt the blm gender bending anti nuclear family utopian model?
(doesn't sound very fitting with aboriginal culture for to me... and that's just the beginning!)
are we to adopt the 'defund the police' model?
(anyone been noticing the fall out of this supposed new 'summer of love' scale little revolution?)
I am not pro 'right wing' by any stretch of the imagination... but unless the contemporary 'left' get their shit together, with real alternatives more developed than juvenile cries to tear the the whole thing down... well, they'll just continue to be recievers of ridicule, and not much else...
sad times...
seriously... viable ideas and alternatives ...please!!!
anything!
anything at all!!
oxrox wrote:1984?????? ???????????
exactly exactly!!!
I got stories from 1984 too!
i decided they were probably best not shared
not helpful...
'structural/systemic' racism. Exhibit A.
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2021/12/22/sa-traditional-owners-lau....
Some of you need to watch tonight's episode of 7.30 report for some perspective.
Mind you, after reading that we are talking about the 1980's, I can understand some of the viewpoints here. But I'm living in 2022. Massive difference.
Probably won't though. It's too positive for some here.
Just in case you didn't read it @sypkan....here's an excerpt.
A 2019 Australian Electoral Commission ballot found more than 60 per cent of local residents supported the facility.
"However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot.
“After successfully winning Native Title after 21 years of fighting for our Country, we were then excluded from the community ballot,” Mr Bilney said.
“The government has continued to treat us unfairly, including not undertaking heritage assessments with us and abandoning the commitment to ‘broad community support’ at the last minute.”
Does that help to clarify for you what could be classified as systemic/structural racism? Dated 2019 for those that think things are moving forward for the better.
Paul McD wrote:Just in case you didn't read it @sypkan....here's an excerpt.
A 2019 Australian Electoral Commission ballot found more than 60 per cent of local residents supported the facility."However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot.
“After successfully winning Native Title after 21 years of fighting for our Country, we were then excluded from the community ballot,” Mr Bilney said.
“The government has continued to treat us unfairly, including not undertaking heritage assessments with us and abandoning the commitment to ‘broad community support’ at the last minute.”
Does that help to clarify for you what could be classified as systemic/structural racism? Dated 2019 for those that think things are moving forward for the better.
I would argue that things have moved on for the better. Not that long ago it would have just happened. Now, they have the opportunity to present their case to the federal court. I'm sure most Australians would be outraged if they weren't successful in their appeal.
oxrox wrote:Paul McD wrote:Just in case you didn't read it @sypkan....here's an excerpt.
A 2019 Australian Electoral Commission ballot found more than 60 per cent of local residents supported the facility."However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot.
“After successfully winning Native Title after 21 years of fighting for our Country, we were then excluded from the community ballot,” Mr Bilney said.
“The government has continued to treat us unfairly, including not undertaking heritage assessments with us and abandoning the commitment to ‘broad community support’ at the last minute.”
Does that help to clarify for you what could be classified as systemic/structural racism? Dated 2019 for those that think things are moving forward for the better.I would argue that things have moved on for the better. Not that long ago it would have just happened. Now, they have the opportunity to present their case to the federal court. I'm sure most Australians would be outraged if they weren't successful in their appeal.
Yeah i hope so @oxrox.
Here's the latest on the case. It will be a good first test for the Albanese government who i'd assume could hold sway on whether it goes ahead or not. . Regardless it doesn't change the fact, the local Indigenous population were banned from taking part in a community ballot to vote yes or no on the project. A fair snapshot of structural racism in this country??
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-06/napandee-nuclear-waste-storage-fa...
Paul McD wrote:'structural/systemic' racism. Exhibit A.
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2021/12/22/sa-traditional-owners-lau....
well, I was referring to the 'structural racism' phrase banded about extensively for 12 months or more - with no explanation - around the blm 'revolution'...
and around incarceration / deaths in custody / poor outcomes more widely that are often talked of on here...
you wanna define that for me?
having said that, the nuclear waste site there would be a bit of a disaster from my point of view, however, that article, and the fairly typical style of journalism it exhibits, raises more questions than it answers...
for example -
"..A 2019 Australian Electoral Commission ballot found more than 60 per cent of local residents supported the facility.
However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot..."
a little explaining here would of minimum requirement from a real journalist..
how exactly were they excluded?
unfairly ommitted?
are they not on the AEC roll?
or, is it becsuse their residential addresses are not in that area?
a pretty vague emotive statement
anyway, it's going to court...
"“We're going to fight this all the way.”
The Federal Court is expected to list the case early next year."
hopefully it gets rejected
has there been a conclusion?
sypkan wrote:Paul McD wrote:'structural/systemic' racism. Exhibit A.
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/article/2021/12/22/sa-traditional-owners-lau....well, I was referring to the 'structural racism' phrase banded about extensively for 12 months or more - with no explanation - around the blm 'revolution'...
and around incarceration / deaths in custody / poor outcomes more widely that are often talked of on here...
you wanna define that for me?
having said that, the nuclear waste site there would be a bit of a disaster from my point of view, however, that article, and the fairly typical style of journalism it exhibits, raises more questions than it answers...
for example -
"..A 2019 Australian Electoral Commission ballot found more than 60 per cent of local residents supported the facility.
However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot..."
a little explaining here would of minimum requirement from a real journalist..
how exactly were they excluded?
unfairly ommitted?
are they not on the AEC roll?
or, is it becsuse their residential addresses are not in that area?
a pretty vague emotive statement
anyway, it's going to court...
"“We're going to fight this all the way.”
The Federal Court is expected to list the case early next year."
hopefully it gets rejected
has there been a conclusion?
Yes i do agree with you there @sypkan.
I was wondering the same.
I'm sure it's out there somewhere but i took a fair knock to the head yesterday with the ocean floor in the surf and have a splitting headache so gonna sign out. Will suss out tomorrow if i can find out a little more about how they decided on who was eligible for the ballot but i'm guessing it has something to do with native title holders excluded due to conflict of interest...which would also be b.s. But that's just an assumption so will see what else i can find.
I imagine it is because of this...
"or, is it becsuse their residential addresses are not in that area?"
but that doesn't sound as outraging as this...
"However, the eligibility criteria for the local government electoral roll meant that Native Title holders were excluded from the ballot."
anyway, even if it's because they are not residents, clearly they should be consulted if they are the owners of that actual land being used, but even this is a bit vague...
it will be an interesting test for the new labor government
it's amazing how long this can has been kicked around the state, it's probably a good 12 years or more since the billa kalina land owners were fighting this very same fight, from memory...
even an NT site was proposed for a while
seems nearly no one wants radioactive waste in their backyard... who would have thought?
Shall we start on the next no consultation or communication with TIWI folk regarding Santos big grab for gas at the top of N.T.
As I said yesterday, it’ll never change.
A bit of cringe news. Wife works with large groups of Aboriginal folk. Last year on a project a company was offering to a fair number of them several pallets with hundreds of Pepsi Max boxes within, subtle bribery. Obviously one of these nuff nuffs saw a few drinking the shit. If Aboriginal people haven’t already got enough rampant diabetes in their populations, this is the kind of childish crap that is thrust upon them. You wonder why I come across negative all the time. This shit just goes on ad nauseam.
On some of her projects corporations with budgets in the hundreds of millions, spend 1 or 2 mill on ecology, botany, zoology etc, and to the people whose land it belongs then offer the local aboriginal group $70,000 and even then they still try and pay as little as possible. So basically these corporations value the aforementioned fraternities more than they value people. . What the fuck is wrong with human beings ?
AlfredWallace wrote:Shall we start on the next no consultation or communication with TIWI folk regarding Santos big grab for gas at the top of N.T.
As I said yesterday, it’ll never change.
A bit of cringe news. Wife works with large groups of Aboriginal folk. Last year on a project a company was offering to a fair number of them several pallets with hundreds of Pepsi Max boxes within, subtle bribery. Obviously one of these nuff nuffs saw a few drinking the shit. If Aboriginal people haven’t already got enough rampant diabetes in their populations, this is the kind of childish crap that is thrust upon them. You wonder why I come across negative all the time. This shit just goes on ad nauseam.
On some of her projects corporations with budgets in the hundreds of millions, spend 1 or 2 mill on ecology, botany, zoology etc, and to the people whose land it belongs then offer the local aboriginal group $70,000 and even then they still try and pay as little as possible. So basically these corporations value the aforementioned fraternities more than they value people. . What the fuck is wrong with human beings ?
I don't think you come across negatively @alfredwallace. Just that you have your eyes open and have seen more than maybe alot of commenters on here have of the realities of what's actually going on in Black and White Australia. There is a clear distinction once you get away from the urban white coastal lifestyle.
GuySmiley wrote:Great thought provoking questions Paul, as a frequent visitor to NZ I see the mutual respect of western and Maori cultures you allude to. Perhaps I’m over cooking my tourist experience but NZ’s embracing of their indigenous culture seems decades ahead of AU .... perhaps with the new Labor govt ??
Yep, NZ is a great example of how a better relationship and coexistence can occur GS. Definitely some things to think about in that respect. I wonder what the key difference is in the two approaches of Australia vs that of NZs over the years.
That's very possibly about to change, guys. Our govt is proposing vast changes to governance which will vest massive powers in unelected iwi (tribal) leaders, i.e. putting an end to democracy as we know it.
This is not going to go well.
Re the above post: Unelected leaders of 13% of the population would have veto rights over decisions concerning 100% of the population.
Paul McD wrote:AlfredWallace wrote:Shall we start on the next no consultation or communication with TIWI folk regarding Santos big grab for gas at the top of N.T.
As I said yesterday, it’ll never change.
A bit of cringe news. Wife works with large groups of Aboriginal folk. Last year on a project a company was offering to a fair number of them several pallets with hundreds of Pepsi Max boxes within, subtle bribery. Obviously one of these nuff nuffs saw a few drinking the shit. If Aboriginal people haven’t already got enough rampant diabetes in their populations, this is the kind of childish crap that is thrust upon them. You wonder why I come across negative all the time. This shit just goes on ad nauseam.
On some of her projects corporations with budgets in the hundreds of millions, spend 1 or 2 mill on ecology, botany, zoology etc, and to the people whose land it belongs then offer the local aboriginal group $70,000 and even then they still try and pay as little as possible. So basically these corporations value the aforementioned fraternities more than they value people. . What the fuck is wrong with human beings ?I don't think you come across negatively @alfredwallace. Just that you have your eyes open and have seen more than maybe alot of commenters on here have of the realities of what's actually going on in Black and White Australia. There is a clear distinction once you get away from the urban white coastal lifestyle.
Hi PaulMcD. How is your head ? Yes, very true comment, i use to say once you get away from any coast or on the east coast, behind the Dividing Range, circumstances for Aboriginal people change dramatically.
Look at the recent fuck up with the return of the Mungo remains to the Willandra Lakes system at Lake Mungo. Some tosser at NSW Parks Service coupled with Sussan Ley, the then Federal Environment minister politician just made up their own mind, contrary to what the traditional owners wanted, and just organised the reburial of the remains. The TO’s had been negotiating with the past governments for 40 years to have the remains returned to country in the manner they wanted. Imagine if this happened on the fringes of Sydney or Melbourne, there would be uproar, similarly what if Ned Kelly’s remains for example or any other short time period icon were fucked with, equally their would be uproar. Why cant we be happy to have a culture thats the oldest on the planet.
It infuriates me when i hear people commenting about how they love travelling to Europe or similar because its so much more cultured than Australia, everything is so old, its amazing. What, all 2000 years of existence. Give me a spell. Our nation still looks through British and European eyeballs, particularly when it comes to the management of our land (still treated like a country park or estate) and its original inhabitants. A present day snapshot shows we are doing terrible on both fronts.
Yep, agree with all of the above @Alfredwallace. And heads good again thanks! I think it made me smarter banging it! Can only hope.
Re. culture. I think this point you make is spot on too. The culture as a whole has alot that can be embraced that could make us all better people, especially in the connection to country.
And in response to @islandbays post. That's super interesting. Didn't know much about that. I'll be interested to learn more. Will check it out. Thanks.
Have a good day gents.
Got some more info @IB a link perhaps? cheers
Paul McD wrote:Yep, agree with all of the above @Alfredwallace. And heads good again thanks! I think it made me smarter banging it! Can only hope.
Re. culture. I think this point you make is spot on too. The culture as a whole has alot that can be embraced that could make us all better people, especially in the connection to country.
And in response to @islandbays post. That's super interesting. Didn't know much about that. I'll be interested to learn more. Will check it out. Thanks.
Have a good day gents.
PaulMcD. Always good to chat, also enjoy your interesting comments and wise thought process on these matters. I refrained from commenting on Island Bays comments, my blood just started to simmer but not boil, id also like to know more IB, particularly your comment about the possible erosion of ‘democracy’. Hang on a minute, i think thats what the Māori people first thought when they were clubbed, shot and thumped by the British, maybe I’m wrong !!!!
AlfredWallace wrote:Shall we start on the next no consultation or communication with TIWI folk regarding Santos big grab for gas at the top of N.T.
As I said yesterday, it’ll never change.
A bit of cringe news. Wife works with large groups of Aboriginal folk. Last year on a project a company was offering to a fair number of them several pallets with hundreds of Pepsi Max boxes within, subtle bribery. Obviously one of these nuff nuffs saw a few drinking the shit. If Aboriginal people haven’t already got enough rampant diabetes in their populations, this is the kind of childish crap that is thrust upon them. You wonder why I come across negative all the time. This shit just goes on ad nauseam.
On some of her projects corporations with budgets in the hundreds of millions, spend 1 or 2 mill on ecology, botany, zoology etc, and to the people whose land it belongs then offer the local aboriginal group $70,000 and even then they still try and pay as little as possible. So basically these corporations value the aforementioned fraternities more than they value people. . What the fuck is wrong with human beings ?
So did the group accept the pepsi max? It wasn't forced down their throats was it? They have a choice just like every human on earth. You don't have to accept what is being offered.
I have friends who work with these corporations with one in upper management of an aboriginal construction company set up through native title money. It is hundreds of millions of dollars.
From what I can gather if you aren't a part of the three tribes involved with the native title money you won't get a cracker. Happy to be corrected.
They also have a contract with Rio Tinto. Rio has a 25% indigenous worker policy. They were confronted by Rio as they weren't conforming to the policy. Told Rio they aren't required to conform as they are an indigenous company. No further action taken.
I live close to where your encounter with road workers occurred in 1984. In the 25 years I have lived here and driven those and other roads, I have never encountered this. There is a lot of road works going on all around here. I am driving to Perth today and most likely will be stopped by the road workers. Some are highly likely to be indigenous. The only time I have seen anyone wind down their windows to these people is to wave or say Gday. Society in so many ways is vastly different to 1984.
Watch the 7.30 report from last night re a couple of older indigenous boys who fought in the vietnam war. They had their struggles when young with racism but have an outlook on life we should all take note of.
Same as the interview with the aboriginal rap artist put up here. Yeah she had a lot of struggles due to her mother being apart of the stolen generation etc but I mostly took positives away from that interview. Example being when she gave birth to her child whilst in prison. She there and then decided she wasn't doing drugs and stealing anymore as she wanted the best for her child. The guy interviewing her asked if the father of her child was going to do the same. She replied and this one got me. "No. You have to want to help yourself. No one is going to do it for you. If you don't help yourself it's not going to happen. He didn't want to help himself so he stayed on the drugs"
She has changed her life dramatically. All because she wanted to. Great story. Even got herself a billboard in the US.
We are all human beings who should be striving to live happily with one another. Impossible probably but we should give it every chance. Thing is, you have to help yourself and have a positive outlook to achieve this. No one will do it for you.
Paul McD wrote:stunet wrote:GuySmiley wrote:This "tough love" notion @stu, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you serious?
I understand there's a great many people who'd like Aboriginal culture to soak in formaldehyde and remain frozen in time forever - speaking metaphorically of course. Yet like it or not, Aboriginal folk - individually and whole communities - have to find a way to plug into the Capitalist system if they are to succeed.
The crunch, of course, is that it's at odds with their traditional way of life hence we arrive at the intersection of two great civilisations and the challenge of how to mesh them together. I'm not sure we can count the progress so far as a success, therefore I think, as in all significant negotiations, all options should be on the table.
.I think this actually hits on the real uneasy part of this discussion. Culture.
My original post was aimed at rethinking the perspective from a white fella and the framework of our current society, 200 plus years post settlement.
Something i note in Indo's posts is the continual need in his eyes, for Indigenous culture to be abandoned so as to move into the more successful and prosperous whitefella culture.
But who says this culture is the correct one? And how can we, as the invader (historically speaking) proclaim our culture is the superior one on stolen land and force assimilation to those it was stolen from. Morally, shouldn't it be the other way around? Should we not be the ones embracing Indigenous culture and offering our own culture, but not forcing it?
This was the reason i wrote this. How do we go about merging two cultures and allowing ourselves to question our very own culture and if it is indeed the right way to live, on someone elses land.
And one last thought. I hear that statement, 'close the gap' and i find that the most intolerable and degrading catchphrase of the lot. When the system is set up with the foundations in colonialism, what gap is there to close except to force assimilation or be damned??
Lastly, why do Indigenous Australians have to find ways to 'plug into the capitalist system' when it was introduced to this country from a foreign entity in the first place.
There is surely middle ground here, but in my opinion, which may be wrong, but it has always seemed to me it's all one way traffic and hence, therein lies all the current problems we have.
I actually thought Stu's post hit the nail on the head.
There seems to be some people who want indigenous people and traditional culture as something to be preserved like an exhibit in a museum.
The idea that this is what indigenous people want isn't supported by any real evidence, there is no real movement to go back to living a traditional lifestyle 99.9% of indigenous people anywhere in Australia embrace modern life even people in the most remote communities don't reject things like money, electricity or any modern mode cons no mater how basic, because they are no different to you and me and enjoy things that make life easier or more comfortable.
To suggest the rest of Australia embrace the main aspects of indigenous culture which is a hunter gatherer lifestyle is completely unrealistic anyway. (as is most aspects housing, diet, system of law, language that was not universal, transport etc)
Hunter gather lifestyles are only sustainable with very low populations, i was reading more about the bone studies on indigenous bones i linked the over day and they even found some indigenous populations pre colonisation had high levels of bone stress due to poor diets/malnutrition the conclusion being the population even at that point in these areas had reached a capacity limit of what the local resources could provide.(even though they moved around)
BTW. I never suggested indigenous people should abandon their culture, i clearly said the aim should be to abandon negative aspects of culture while keeping positive aspects of culture, instead of some blanket idea that all cultural aspects are good and should be preserved.
Non indigenous Australia respects and acknowledges positive aspects of indigenous culture more than ever, be it arts, ceremony, cultural lands/sites, use of native plants for food or medicine, even local dialects are taught in some schools, even use of fire to maintain the landscape has been something talked about a lot on recent years.
Also there is no such thing as white culture in the same way there is no such thing as black culture, and capitalism isn't a white thing its a global aspect of the modern world.
Theres also isn't just two cultures to merge in Australia there is already possibly hundreds* of different cultures that sit side by side as Australia is made up of all kinds of ethnic groups many still strongly embrace all types of cultural aspects.
Some of these groups have actually preserved aspects of their culture more than where they immigrated from, for example there was a great discussion on ABC radio a while back on how many Italians in Australia hold onto tradition and way they do things(culture) much more strongly than they do in Italy, so many italians in Australia have presevered the Italian culture of the period they immigrated while back home things have changed and evolved to be very different (generally less traditional )
* Hundreds might sound like a stretch but considering there is 300 ethnic groups just in Indonesia that often have very different cultural aspects, housing design, food, language dialect, traditional beliefs etc, it's not a stretch, it's the same deal for Indigenous Australians they aren't really one set group as such with one set culture, many cultural aspects vary from different regions, even cliche things we think of as being Aboriginal like didgeridoos were only used in certain areas.
Couple of good movies on world movies and NITV tonight. Mad Bastards and Radiance.
In June 2018, the Australian Electoral Commission renamed the federal Division of Batman to Division of Cooper in Cooper's honour.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cooper_(Aboriginal_Australian)
Unreal!! @supafreak. Looks like a natural footer to me.
Supafreak wrote:
Supafreak. What a great timeless photo. The look of no urgency, we could all take a lesson from this fella, Gotta admire the amount of initiation scars on his breast and lower abdomen.
AlfredWallace wrote:Supafreak wrote:
Supafreak. What a great timeless photo. The look of no urgency, we could all take a lesson from this fella, Gotta admire the amount of initiation scars on his breast and lower abdomen.
I’m curious to when they first started this mode of transport .
Out the back...!
Cheers for sharing that photo...These tide riders surf off the Moon.
All see the Moon burns fuel from full to empty as it blazes across the sky.
As Full Moon wanes the tides drain which drifts or (drains) their ocean craft to the next Island.
First nation could surf the tidal trade delegations to China (Moonshine / Tobacco + Yams / Rice)
Island hopping from Tassie to Antarctica onto South America.
First Nation are indeed the colonizers of our Oceans...just none care to notice...Hence this Forum!
These top end tides measure 11m wave face or (Front) of complete sea volume.
Basically, this cool cat casually surfs an 11m high wall of water between islands.
Yes! Indeed...pure surfers of the largest longest tidal waves!
Surf big clockwise seas wide'n'slow then trim Anti Clockwise fast'n'tight thru the Strait Shories.
These original pioneering ocean navigators also had 5x better vision than us folk.
Pretty much navigate around all oceans spotting a land outcrop.
This is why Empires valued & sought indigenous navigators.
First Nation peoples were the best island spotters & hoppers...
Can view next destination to plan accordingly.
This in turn cuts down on loading extra resource, so craft design & integrity is 100% true & assured.
No need for a flurry of fluffy white sails or VIP upper & hesitant lower class decks...
That's why all of us here instinctively & instantly see a fellow true surfer at one with the sea.
So long as Moon was visible thru the clouds or reflected in nature...Surf just Surf the tidal waves!
We can see these return phenomenal Oz / Indo tide effects
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-15/why-the-kimberley-has-australias-...
6th Dec 2021 Bono Bore wave front of equal power...
Crew can see & feel this powerful natural force shaping our worlds...only comes natural to surf it!
All say Aye! Exactly...The only way to travel!
Tip : (Can click 2x speed to raise the fear factor!) or just chill.
Unreal. Thanks TBB. I was actually wondering about alot of the stuff you just posted above. Fascinating. Cheers.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28