The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Sypkan "australia has done a remarkable job in preserving and restoring indigenous culture "
Like the Juukan gorge caves.
GuySmiley wrote:hey Shep, here’s something novel something new why not ask, listen and actually do what our indigenous nations ask. After 200 years deciding what’s best for Aboriginals that starling new approach might just work!
I am
seems your 'listening' is way too focussed...
(much like your wider political viewpoint)
did you see linda burney address peter dutton the other day?
seems to be on a way different trajectory to your baby boomer leftist nuttery
adam12 wrote:Sypkan "australia has done a remarkable job in preserving and restoring indigenous culture "
Like the Juukan gorge caves.
an absolute disaster... heartbreaking...
what struck me most about this, is how most australians thought it an absolute disastrous shame - on so many levels
but then it passed ever so quickly with not much more than a fleeting collective sigh...
such is the nature of modern mining, industry, science, etc... where all the boxes are ticked by high paid consultants - then shit just seems to power on by whatever means...
environmental officers, cultural consultants, and various other buzzy titles... are the box ticking sham that is modern business in australia...
french ceo fall guy - calculation made - problem addressed - business as usual...
you can hardly blame wider australia for that
"but then it passed ever so quickly with not much more than a fleeting collective sigh..."
Totally
"you can hardly blame wider australia for that"
Yeah, I do.
Imagine the French peoples response if Rio had, with govt. approval, blown up Lascaux.
There would be another revolution, heads lopped.
The Juukans were 30,000 years older.
Aussies just went "Meh"
Boils my blood.
Sypkan
My views on this topic don't come from any political ideology but rather from working full-time with Aboriginal communities throughout Victoria and at national forums. Four years that ended with me hiring an Yorta Yorta elder (RIP) to replace me to co-ordinate community health and child care programs throughout the State (as part of a national program to hire 50+ Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff in "community" contact roles). This program was just one of the many national initiatives that stemmed from the Deaths in Custody Royal Commission which my team and the State Office of a Federal Govt Dept needed to respond to.
This isn't some sort of intellectual exercise for me, I can still hear the words of the elders, self determination, respect, genuine consultation that will be acted on fully and in good faith by govt is a non-negotiable first step we must all take. If you want to fail just repeat the mistakes of the past you said above I think, true, let's stop thinking we know best; imposed and simplistic interventions will fail and create more harm. Five years ago we were gifted the Uluru Statement from the Heart and as a nation we need to embrace it and we will all the more richer for it.
adam12 wrote:"but then it passed ever so quickly with not much more than a fleeting collective sigh..."
Totally
"you can hardly blame wider australia for that"
Yeah, I do.
Imagine the French peoples response if Rio had, with govt. approval, blown up Lascaux.
There would be another revolution, heads lopped.
The Juukans were 30,000 years older.
Aussies just went "Meh"
Boils my blood.
yeh, I share your pain
but apathy is our thing... and the french...
I blame the impotence of our leaders
and at risk of sounding like a one trick pony with a bee up his bum... the decades long conditioning of neoliberalism...
and the culture that has developed as result of box ticking sham consultants mentioned above
GuySmiley wrote:Sypkan
My views on this topic don't come from any political ideology but rather from working full-time with Aboriginal communities throughout Victoria and at national forums. Four years that ended with me hiring an Yorta Yorta elder (RIP) to replace me to co-ordinate community health and child care programs throughout the State (as part of a national program to hire 50+ Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff in "community" contact roles). This program was just one of the many national initiatives that stemmed from the Deaths in Custody Royal Commission which my team and the State Office of a Federal Govt Dept needed to respond to.
This isn't some sort of intellectual exercise for me, I can still hear the words of the elders, self determination, respect, genuine consultation that will be acted on fully and in good faith by govt is a non-negotiable first step we must all take. If you want to fail just repeat the mistakes of the past you said above I think, true, let's stop thinking we know best; imposed and simplistic interventions will fail and create more harm. Five years ago we were gifted the Uluru Statement from the Heart and as a nation we need to embrace it and we will all the more richer for it.
with respect guysmiley (and I mean that, I respect what you have done) but you clearly come from a particular viewpoint - a victorian urban one, and all that that entails...
you had much to do with remote communities?
you don't think the community consultation and self empowerment thing you describe has been in place for a while now?
(I know, it has shortcomings, huge ones... not least trust... but how long can we wait?)
you ever had much to do with meth.?
'wicked problems' have gotten a whole lot wickeder
there is no time to wait
Im not advocating simple interventions, however...
"they shouldn't need to endure another week!"
but iin a weird twist of irony... or reverse racism... or something so twisted I cannot put my finger on it...
if these women and kids were white, they would not have to endure it for another week!!
something is fundamentally wrong
GuySmiley wrote:Sypkan
My views on this topic don't come from any political ideology but rather from working full-time with Aboriginal communities throughout Victoria and at national forums. Four years that ended with me hiring an Yorta Yorta elder (RIP) to replace me to co-ordinate community health and child care programs throughout the State (as part of a national program to hire 50+ Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff in "community" contact roles). This program was just one of the many national initiatives that stemmed from the Deaths in Custody Royal Commission which my team and the State Office of a Federal Govt Dept needed to respond to.
This isn't some sort of intellectual exercise for me, I can still hear the words of the elders, self determination, respect, genuine consultation that will be acted on fully and in good faith by govt is a non-negotiable first step we must all take. If you want to fail just repeat the mistakes of the past you said above I think, true, let's stop thinking we know best; imposed and simplistic interventions will fail and create more harm. Five years ago we were gifted the Uluru Statement from the Heart and as a nation we need to embrace it and we will all the more richer for it.
This is a great example on why things never gets better and only get worse, the mind boggles to think this goose has worked in this area, narrow minded fake people with fake solutions instead of open minded real people with real solutions.
No sypkan in my time I worked / consulted very closely with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders from all over the country it was the same message everywhere - so rather than assume something I may or may not have done why not ask first? Why don’t we as a nation ask communities for the solutions but only do so if we are truly prepared to listen and act on what they say ....
GuySmiley wrote:No sypkan in my time I worked / consulted very closely with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders from all over the country it was the same message everywhere - so rather than assume something I may or may not have done why not ask first? Why don’t we as a nation ask communities for the solutions but only do so if we are truly prepared to listen and act on what they say ....
Your last sentence is precisely what I said a few pages ago when Indo put up some articles from Price, Dillon and Mundine. Their viewpoint was immediately rejected by a lot of people here because it's not what they want to hear.
We have to listen to all viewpoints from Indigenous people to hopefully come to a solution because nothing has worked. These people are Indigenous and would know a lot more than us about what the problems are and what the potential solution could be. Listen to all sides. Let's not waste this opportunity for change by being tunnel visioned.
"- so rather than assume something I may or may not have done why not ask first? "
errrrr, that's exactly what I did... ask...
there is no such thing as 'remote' in victoria, and that is why I asked...
oxrox wrote:GuySmiley wrote:No sypkan in my time I worked / consulted very closely with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders from all over the country it was the same message everywhere - so rather than assume something I may or may not have done why not ask first? Why don’t we as a nation ask communities for the solutions but only do so if we are truly prepared to listen and act on what they say ....
Your last sentence is precisely what I said a few pages ago when Indo put up some articles from Price, Dillon and Mundine. Their viewpoint was immediately rejected by a lot of people here because it's not what they want to hear.
We have to listen to all viewpoints from Indigenous people to hopefully come to a solution because nothing has worked. These people are Indigenous and would know a lot more than us about what the problems are and what the potential solution could be. Listen to all sides. Let's not waste this opportunity for change by being tunnel visioned.
yep, the cats that make it to guysmiley's little committees (whereever they're from) bring a certain viewpoint - full of assumptions and ideas about what's what...
that's why they are there
breaking the echo chamber seems to be half the battle from what i see
“Little committees”
“Echo chambers”
Really?
At the risk of repeating myself it’s always about self determination, letting each community decide for themselves via genuine consultation and that is why what Price etc say isn’t the answer, it’s more of the same. Her and other’s ideas might have merit but unless it comes from the community it’s doomed to fail.
GuySmiley wrote:“Little committees”
“Echo chambers”Really?
At the risk of repeating myself it’s always about self determination, letting each community decide for themselves via genuine consultation and that is why what Price etc say isn’t the answer, it’s more of the same. Her and other’s ideas might have merit but unless it comes from the community it’s doomed to fail.
Many remote communities already have extremely high levels of self determination to the point that you cant enter without a permit, some you cant even enter.
Has it helped these communities?
We'll ironically they are often the areas with the greatest problems.
GuySmiley wrote:“Little committees”
“Echo chambers”Really?
At the risk of repeating myself it’s always about self determination, letting each community decide for themselves via genuine consultation and that is why what Price etc say isn’t the answer, it’s more of the same. Her and other’s ideas might have merit but unless it comes from the community it’s doomed to fail.
Yeah well if we are going to referendum on this I'm going to listen to them all. You may think it's doomed to fail but I will sit back and listen to all of the views put across by the people who are affected. Are you saying Price etc don't have links to communities?
I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong but if you're not willing to sit back and listen to all sides objectively, I would suggest that would be doomed to failure as any open minded person would.
Oxrox, whether Price has any community links / backing or not (I understand she and others championed here don’t) is besides the point the one size fits all imposed from the outside simplistic approach she/they present is precisely the repeated error of the past. Each community is different and while they would all share commonalities each should be given the right/respect to decide their own future. Pretty basic/simple really.
excuse my ignorance guysmiley, but are modern indigenous communities across australia made up of a broad range of views and experiences - just like the rest of the world?
or are they just chock full of dogmatic leftists - who share exactly the same views and experiences?
if it is the latter... then please please tell me why the guru of all things indigenous - marcia langton - is happy to share a stage with jacinta price?
you guys go hard trying to dismiss and deplatform jacinta price and co.... constantly...
it seems some of 'the mob' believe she may have something valuable to share
should i respect the voice and experience of marcia langton?
or some baby boomer life long public service honkey who constantly displays his unbelievable proclivities towards censorship - regardless of the issue?
genuine question
https://www.abc.net.au/news/programs/national-press-club/2016-11-17/nati...
an excellent discussion by the way...
where the video has 'expired', but seems to be available elsewhere if anyone is interested
Ive heard Marcia Langton speak many times sypkan and there’s nothing I’ve said above in good faith she would have issue with.
Now if you’re going to be stupid and/or insulting I’m done.
GuySmiley wrote:Oxrox, whether Price has any community links / backing or not (I understand she and others championed here don’t) is besides the point the one size fits all imposed from the outside simplistic approach she/they present is precisely the repeated error of the past. Each community is different and while they would all share commonalities each should be given the right/respect to decide their own future. Pretty basic/simple really.
Did you read the article Indo put up from Jacinta Price? It's on page 26 of this thread. Even if you skim over it, take note of the last sentence. It mentions "Voice" and how ironical it is that a lot of "voice" is not being heard because it's not within the current agenda. This is from an Indigenous person living in the Northern Territory. It must and should carry some weight. We need to hear and listen to all the voices to make a difference.
GuySmiley wrote:Ive heard Marcia Langton speak many times sypkan and there’s nothing I’ve said above in good faith she would have issue with.
Now if you’re going to be stupid and/or insulting I’m done.
there's nothing above I would have issue with
it's just your dismissiveness and obtuseness I find frustrating, sorry, I shouldn't have thrown the H word in there, but it's shorter than 'whitefella' and I do find you incredibly frustrating. the rest of my statement / question stands, your position, location and belief system brings all sorts of assumptions with it that allowed you to fill that position... it is not necessarily wrong... but it does come across as rather dated and dogmatic...
we have agreed in the past before that aboriginal elder women have changed the conversation, and have initiated all sorts of good change in communities...
I just see jacinta price, dillon, and indo's other faves as a continuation of that process, an 'evolution' if you will...
some of you guys clearly see them as a threat - they are - to a 1990's narrative that just goes round and round and around...
https://apple.news/AXKfYSGr5S7uYagsnhay0mg
Bit of self determination.
indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:“Little committees”
“Echo chambers”Really?
At the risk of repeating myself it’s always about self determination, letting each community decide for themselves via genuine consultation and that is why what Price etc say isn’t the answer, it’s more of the same. Her and other’s ideas might have merit but unless it comes from the community it’s doomed to fail.
Many remote communities already have extremely high levels of self determination to the point that you cant enter without a permit, some you cant even enter.
Has it helped these communities?
We'll ironically they are often the areas with the greatest problems.
More horse shit from the ***** shit ****. Look up One Arm Point you stupid ignorant **** shit ****.
Broad generalisations again. Shit ****!
Hey Soggydog,
I edited a few words out of your post. Emotive topic, no doubt, but not the best way to prosecute an argument.
Happy to discuss it if need be: [email protected]
No worries Stu, I’ll keep it clean, can’t say it won’t be mean though. Cheers.
soggydog wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:“Little committees”
“Echo chambers”Really?
At the risk of repeating myself it’s always about self determination, letting each community decide for themselves via genuine consultation and that is why what Price etc say isn’t the answer, it’s more of the same. Her and other’s ideas might have merit but unless it comes from the community it’s doomed to fail.
Many remote communities already have extremely high levels of self determination to the point that you cant enter without a permit, some you cant even enter.
Has it helped these communities?
We'll ironically they are often the areas with the greatest problems.
More horse shit from the ***** shit ****. Look up One Arm Point you stupid ignorant **** shit ****.
Broad generalisations again. Shit ****!
You know if your aim is to get under my skin, the best way to do it would be to actually prove me wrong somehow, which would be pretty hard in this case.
Otherwise to get under someone's skin with just verbal abuse, the receiver actually either has to have some respect for the abuser or at least be engaged in proper discussion first otherwise with no investment in the conversation from either party its kind of pointless and doesn't have any real impact.
Oh and it also only works for so long so you have to use it very sparingly.
Did you look One Arm Point up? It is pretty much the opposite of your gross generalisations.
LMB Indo
For Fuck sake, its the mouth from the East the West the North and South again, Indo you are never wrong as you’ve mildly convinced yourself. You are persistent, I’m going to start referring to you as The Oracle, the person who knows everything, or thinks they do. You are totally off your head. It’s comical.
@soggydog
Do you know what the meaning of "Many" is?
It's different to "ALL".
The reality is we know by far overall the biggest problems are in remote and very remote communities, it's pretty hard to argue anything else, it's just fact, but yes of course it varies from community too community some have lower levels some much higher levels of problems, many of these communities also often have the highest levels of self determination.
Logic says if self determination was going to bring magical solutions then you would see a pattern where the communities with the most self determination had found solutions but it's not the case.
All that said like i said at the start of this recent conversation the other week, im not against the Uluru statement or self determination, because its a box you need to tick to move forward so you can move on from narratives like Guy spins, otherwise people like Guy will always say the problem is the people need self determination, plus probably more import it also brings a sense of ownership to the issues.
Self-determination is ridiculously more complex and nuanced than recently presented here in exceptionally simple terms ...
https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/rights-and-freedoms/right-self-deter...
Indo, in regards to communities, do you think it’s possible that you only know about the bad outcomes. I think you are generalising to suit your position as I know of many communities that don’t have these problems to the extent that you are trying to tar an entire population of traditional owners with.
I’ve sat with initiated elders and young men in places of cultural significance that very few people will ever see. I’ve listened to their stories, had conversation, and learnt. I’ve traveled with matriarchs to places of cultural significance and had to wait in the car as they where places women held ceremony in private. I’ve walked transects across tenements identifying stone tools, sat in rock shelters with TO’s and archeologists doing excavation work. And never did I think I understand their plight or knew the answers to complex nuanced problems. I was just extremely lucky that I got paid just to hang with people and see the connection with country.
That’s why I find your consistent considered vilification of aboriginal people as a whole pretty offensive. And like I’ve said more than a few times it’s far from helpful.
Jacinta Price has spoken of her experience as an aboriginal woman, and to be honest I’ve often thought that aboriginal women would have to be one of the most disenfranchised demographics in our society as a whole, but vilification of aboriginal men as a whole hardly seems helpful regardless of wether they are from remote communities or not.
I’ve said my piece numerous times and others such as GuySmiley who have spent time working with traditional owners addressing needs have tried to present a counter argument that you have dismissed without, from what I’ve seen, any consideration at all. That’s why I rail against you so hard. In this and every other thread where I see you lack humanity for your fellow man regardless of wether you agree with them or not.
And quite frankly who are we to tell people how to live their lives. Especially aboriginal people.
In regards to remote communities with serious problems, I really don’t know what the answers are. Probably look after those that are looking after the kids as that’s where change will occur. Sit down with a young man that’s been initiated, you will see pride and the importance of tradition and culture in these communities. That’s the best place to start I suppose. Restore that pride and custodianship of the land as opposed to forcibly inter grating them in to a society they may not fit comfortably into.
You have to listen to the ones who don’t already have a soapbox too.
Soggydog, Great reply. The worrying thing is, he’s breeding. I know from all of my encounters with people who dislike aboriginal people, not always, but usually, their parents do as well and also those before them, incredibly pathetic when you break it right down. It says a lot about the ‘haters’ more than anything else. Indo needs therapy IMO, seriously, he is not of sound mind, go get help.
Acknowledging where the problems are and by whom isn't generalising or vilification it's actually truth telling, something everyone these days bang's on about, problem is many people only like truth telling when it makes them feel good and dont like acknowledging aspects that might make them uncomfortable.
If you're not honest about where the problems are and why, how on earth are you suppose to solve them?
BTW. While i dont agree with much of your post that was a much better constructive post on this subject than your others.
AlfredWallace wrote:Soggydog, Great reply. The worrying thing is, he’s breeding. I know from all of my encounters with people who dislike aboriginal people...
I really don't wish to get involved, however I've followed this forum since day dot and not once has Indo Dreaming proclaimed, or even inferred, "dislike for Aboriginal people". What he's done, and at times painstakingly, if a touch clumsily, is forward a solution that runs counter to the popular, long-term model.
You probably don't mean it, but dismissing people as racist only drives further societal division. Sure, some people are racist, but I see no evidence of it here.
I don't wish to get involved so I hold my tongue around forums like this, however I think it pays if everyone stopped the kneejerk reactions and just tried to see what the other person's point of view is before painting them as someone despicable.
For instance, after forty years of failure, is there benefit in trying a different method, perhaps one incorporating 'tough love' where Aboriginal people must strive rather than rely on govt handouts or humbugging? Could that foster success and pride..?
I believe that's part of what Indo has been saying.
On the flipside, is the notion of 'forty years of failure' incorrect and improvements are incremental, meaning symbolic acts (such as the Apology and the coming Uluru Statement) are worthwhile as they slowly chip away at the inequality? I mean, we have two great civilizations and it takes a while for them to align.
There's been a lot of misunderstanding on Swellnet over the years and we've copped shit for harbouring racists, and to be honest I'm getting a bit fed up with it. There are points of view, philosophies to get your head around, and just because someone doesn't share the same belief as yourself doesn't mean they wish ill of the Aboriginal community.
.... I've followed this forum since day dot and not once has Indo Dreaming ...."
Andrew Bolt 18c?
Adam Goodes?
Uluru Statement?
@info has stridently led the charge on these topics and more ....... its the decade long theme here and show us once where he considered or looked at an alternative to his position that you are now asking others to do!
"....dismissing people as racist only drives further societal division ..."
True
"There's been a lot of misunderstanding on Swellnet over the years and we've copped shit for harbouring racists, and to be honest I'm getting a bit fed up with it....".
I see SN forums as a Wild West, pretty much anything goes, that Covid forum topic, FFS, should have been shut down weeks or months before the blow up, or is that cancelling culture?
stunet wrote:AlfredWallace wrote:Soggydog, Great reply. The worrying thing is, he’s breeding. I know from all of my encounters with people who dislike aboriginal people...
I really don't wish to get involved, however I've followed this forum since day dot and not once has Indo Dreaming proclaimed, or even inferred, "dislike for Aboriginal people". What he's done, and at times painstakingly, if a touch clumsily, is forward a solution that runs counter to the popular, long-term model.
You probably don't mean it, but dismissing people as racist only drives further societal division. Sure, some people are racist, but I see no evidence of it here.
I don't wish to get involved so I hold my tongue around forums like this, however I think it pays if everyone stopped the kneejerk reactions and just tried to see what the other person's point of view is before painting them as someone despicable.
For instance, after forty years of failure, is there benefit in trying a different method, perhaps one incorporating 'tough love' where Aboriginal people must strive rather than rely on govt handouts or humbugging? Could that foster success and pride..?
I believe that's part of what Indo has been saying.
On the flipside, is the notion of 'forty years of failure' incorrect and improvements are incremental, meaning symbolic acts (such as the Apology and the coming Uluru Statement) are worthwhile as they slowly chip away at the inequality? I mean, we have two great civilizations and it takes a while for them to align.
There's been a lot of misunderstanding on Swellnet over the years and we've copped shit for harbouring racists, and to be honest I'm getting a bit fed up with it. There are points of view, philosophies to get your head around, and just because someone doesn't share the same belief as yourself doesn't mean they wish ill of the Aboriginal community.
Yes of course i don't hate or dislike ingenious people at all, it is a bit annoying to have people say things like that.
The problem is if i reply to the comments like that it will just get in a pointless back and forth, but at the same time others who havent been following the thread might assume it's true.
I intended to stay out of this for a while... but...
"I see SN forums as a Wild West, pretty much anything goes, that Covid forum topic, FFS, should have been shut down weeks or months before the blow up, or is that cancelling culture?"
are you fucking serious?!!!
after all the misinformation that has now been exposed... through a process of extraction of teeth... from good sources from 'the (old) left' of politics no less...
mr proclivity is next level!
@ Guy
I havent started any of those threads, but yes i have commented on them as i have commented on many other threads and yes my comments often go against more popular narratives and yes I'm vocal at times because i get frustrated with people like you, whom cant be critical of people or cultures if they are of colour or even say criticise a religion like Islam, for you it's all off limits and a certain narrative has to be followed, while if its white people or culture you can be as critical as can be hence your obsession with bagging out Christians and Christianity in the religion thread, thats why i find you kind of fake.
But hey each to their own, people having differing views often from polar opposites is just life
Personally i think Swellnet are in a hard position on what to allow and what not too the Covid thread was the best example, if they shut it down many would be saying they are fascist and censoring things too much, while others want it shut down thinking it's spreading misinformation.
Personally i think it was the right call to let it go, and as you know im coming from a position of being pro vax even had my booster shot and got the flue jab the other week for the first time.
That said i think people had a right to question all kinds of aspects of Covid from lockdowns to vax mandates and of course the source of covid and even the vaccines themselves.
BTW. It should noted especially with the Covid thread the people wanting it shutdown were actually the ones commenting five times a day actually fuelling opposing replies.
Stu. I dont know you, ive always read and enjoyed your brief comments. I’ve been part of the Swellnet readership for a long time and always will be.
But, I’m shocked by your statement and you’ve really surprised me with your response on this occasion. For every aboriginal person in Australia who receives some form of welfare whether they are in a remote community or living a suburban or urban life , there are just as many or more non-Aboriginal people receiving handouts on a grand scale. I’d suggest you may need to reassess as to why so many aboriginal people are in this predicament, I’d assumed someone as intelligent as you appear would have a much greater understanding of the machinations that have lead to their ciorcumstances. Just my opinion.
Indo. If you claim you are not racist. Why is it that you are not reporting or writing about the same themes you keep pedalling about violence and handouts for any other community in Australia. Simple answer, Aboriginal matters are just so much easier and more melodramatic and incite derision. We are an amalgam of a lot of the worlds countries and better off for having their contributions to our society. Can you imagine if we still had a nation riding on the back of the ‘White Australia Policy’ an archaic horrible vestige of the past.
Well, no offence, but your opinion is patronising.
I think I read widely on the topic, believe I take in most viewpoints, even have a neighbour and friend who's one of the Stolen Generation, and none of what I wrote would be surprising to them.
stunet wrote:Well, no offence, but your opinion is patronising.
I think I read widely on the topic, believe I take in most viewpoints, even have a neighbour and friend who's one of the Stolen Generation, and none of what I wrote would be surprising to them.
No offence taken Stu. As i stated, just my opinion.
Besides, how would you think your notion of a ‘tough love’ policy to all social security recipients that are non-aboriginal across Australia would be received? There would be uproar.
AlfredWallace wrote:Besides, how would you think your notion of a ‘tough love’ policy to all social security recipients that are non-aboriginal across Australia would be received? There would be uproar.
One example would be putting everyone, irrespective of heritage or birthplace, on similar payment plans. Not really sure why non-Aboriginals would be in uproar.
"Sure, some people are racist, but I see no evidence of it here."
Genuinely surprised you came to this conclusion Stu.
One of the basic premises that got me going was the idea that the closer Indigenous Australians are to their culture, the more violent and disfunctional their communities are.
And inversely, the more I.A. are "assimilated" in cities etc, the better off they are.
As far as I understand it, this is very close to the textbook definition of racism.
This "tough love" notion @stu, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you serious? FFS how much more tough love do the ATSI communities deserve?
Can I also politely dispel this notion of just because you know someone, or have a mate or neighbour or best man old friend who happens to be Aboriginal it makes you any more an expert on the topic than a rock (not saying you have suggested this @stu) but people who have worked in the field for years are equally clueless apart from starting with genuine consultation, respect and a genuine desire to see people self determine their futures This is an intergenerational issue looking back and forwards and there are no easy one size fits all simplistic solutions.
I read Chris Sarras book a few years ago and he seems to have developed a fairly good program to help the situation and I'd recommend anyone interested in this topic to give it a read.
His idea basically was to ensure kids developed self respect and confidence and to be accountable for their actions. Importantly though, and this is key, he expected the educators to have belief in the kids they were teaching and to put in a genuine and concerted effort into their task. If not, they were out the door
There needs to be a change in expectations so if a treaty helps, all well and good, however at a more basic level, giving kids a good start should be the main focus. Obviously as well, doing everything possible to eliminate poverty and addictions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Sarra#Cherbourg_State_School
https://research.acer.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1310&context=re...
A good story about what happens when kids are given a chance to reach their potential from Cherbourg where Chris Sarra was the principal
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-06-08/selwyn-cobbo-state-of-origin-quee...
GuySmiley wrote:This "tough love" notion @stu, are you playing devil's advocate here or are you serious?
I'll answer this in good faith even though it's my turn to be 'genuinely surprised' that someone who purports to liase with Indigenuous communities doesn't know what I'm talking about.
There's a fairly wide belief that welfare is a double-edged sword so that, while it helps disadvantaged Indigenuous communities get by, and can lay the foundation for advancement, it can also inhibit their progress towards, for want of a better term, upward mobility. To wit: Why strive when you can receive? (Yeah, it's a whitefella problem too, but WGAF about colour? We're all humans with the same psychological drive and proclivities)
As in my spitballing above: I don't know which way is right or wrong, but I get very dispirited when people who claim to be for the cause won't consider other solutions - even when suggested hypothetically - without resorting to racist epithets.
I understand there's a great many people who'd like Aboriginal culture to soak in formaldehyde and remain frozen in time forever - speaking metaphorically of course. Yet like it or not, Aboriginal folk - individually and whole communities - have to find a way to plug into the Capitalist system if they are to succeed.
The crunch, of course, is that it's at odds with their traditional way of life hence we arrive at the intersection of two great civilisations and the challenge of how to mesh them together. I'm not sure we can count the progress so far as a success, therefore I think, as in all significant negotiations, all options should be on the table.
Also Guy, don't take me for a fool. Of course your notion was directed at me. You can repeat your experience ad nauseam, but if one other person dares share theirs...
AndyM & GuySmiley. Good summations. I’m going to wind up my contribution to this discussion because it just keeps feeding Indo’s appetite for trash. Its not a ‘waving the surrender flag’ moment but I clearly have formed a view that very little is or has changed with regards to an understanding of the plight of Aboriginal people, despite what our poorly elected governments tell us that its improving, because it is not.
You only have to look at the recent incident involving Rio Tinto when it blew up a 46,000 year old cave in Juukan Gorge in the Pilbara where remains of human hair with a genetic link to humans dating 5000 years was found to understand nothing has changed.
Imagine if some well known religious icon, church statue etc. or some globally renowned architectural feature was destroyed deliberately or that enormous statue overlooking Rio de Janeiro was wrongfully destroyed, the world would be up in arms. We have a long, long, long way to go as a so called ‘progressive’ nation.
stu, to your first point, I'm familiar with the argument and to the extent a community reach the decision themselves good on them. My only point here is let the community genuinely decide these things and yes sometimes a community might need gentle (and genuine) support (and resources and time) to get to that point of being able to make a decision. if its imposed it will fail, 200 years of history tells us so.
Your 2nd point. In so far as I didn't want your story about your neighbour to add any additional weight to an often quoted justification for being supposedly qualified to comment here by a regular correspondent it was directed at you. Yes unfair in the circumstances as you have occasionally related good yarns of your and his families interactions and all our lives would be the richer for them.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28