All Things Religion Thread

GS, I already know how lobby groups work.....they corrupt the Democratic process ,where we are supposed to have elected reps of the people....which we vote for....then the lobby groups come in and pay for what they want.....Lobby groups are an inherent evil that corrupt our Democratic Process...doesn't matter if it's Labor or the Coalition....lobby groups pay both sides......so our so called Democracy doesn't really exist except in the minds of the sheep/voters!

GuySmiley wrote:

brutus wrote:

BB, can you explain what lobby groups affect on society , eg the fossil fuel lobby???

blindboy wrote:

"So BB , youtube/Google/facebook, now there's some credible sources......a highway of misinformation /information....who owns controls your "thoroughly fact checkers?"

Mate if you want a discussion try reading more carefully. I dismissed Youtube and Facebook as reliable sources. As far as Google goes, it has its uses, but I also use a variety of other search engines such as Duckduckgo. In a democracy the primary actions for creating change are political and economic. Vote for the parties that have the most progressive social policies and put your money where your mouth is on social issues.

I have read this book, recommended if you want to know why lobby groups and lobbyist should be banned.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/476241.Supercapitalism

BB , just had a revelation , most of what discussed here on the forums are the Symptoms of what I call a deteriorating society.....and the hopelessness of a secular future...

I see our current Western society , based on all the symptoms that you guys constantly argue about , as a failing one!

blindboy wrote:

"So BB , youtube/Google/facebook, now there's some credible sources......a highway of misinformation /information....who owns controls your "thoroughly fact checkers?"

Mate if you want a discussion try reading more carefully. I dismissed Youtube and Facebook as reliable sources. As far as Google goes, it has its uses, but I also use a variety of other search engines such as Duckduckgo. In a democracy the primary actions for creating change are political and economic. Vote for the parties that have the most progressive social policies and put your money where your mouth is on social issues.

brutus, I don't see religion solving our problems. Sectarianism has frequently been a driving force of violence through-out history. No justice, no peace is also more true today than ever before. Global and social inequaities are the biggest instigators of violence and social decay. We produce enough to have everyone on the planet living a good life. We choose not to pursue that and generally pass the largest part of the blame onto politicians who, most often, are only delivering what their people want.
One of the things christianity got right is the concept of original sin. From my perspective we are flawed because evolution has selected for a tendency to greed and violence. It helped us survive but also has made us inherently suspicious of others and highly competitive with other groups. There are no easy answers to that beyond the personal one of trying not to surrender to your worst instincts.

BB , we agree on a lot.......I think your point about man being sinners is really relevant....that's where I see greed as being a driving force behind the inequalities that we suffer globally....I mean how many billion does a person need and at what cost to people living marginally ...which is about 1/2 the population of the planet......the real worrying trend is the increasing suicides/homelessness/mental issues in our youth....I mean when I read post Covid ....
https://www.theage.com.au/national/young-broke-and-overwhelmed-life-gets... what I see here in our community is now so much worse than it was a year ago.....that's why I cannot trust our secular world to deliver for everybody.......but if people want to answer to a higher calling such as a God who defines sin from good!

blindboy wrote:

brutus, I don't see religion solving our problems. Sectarianism has frequently been a driving force of violence through-out history. No justice, no peace is also more true today than ever before. Global and social inequaities are the biggest instigators of violence and social decay. We produce enough to have everyone on the planet living a good life. We choose not to pursue that and generally pass the largest part of the blame onto politicians who, most often, are only delivering what their people want.
One of the things christianity got right is the concept of original sin. From my perspective we are flawed because evolution has selected for a tendency to greed and violence. It helped us survive but also has made us inherently suspicious of others and highly competitive with other groups. There are no easy answers to that beyond the personal one of trying not to surrender to your worst instincts.

All good Brutus. We definitely have similar concerns and agree on the essential problems. We just came from different directions.

blindboy wrote:

All good Brutus. We definitely have similar concerns and agree on the essential problems. We just came from different directions.

I think we see the same secular problems /symptoms that our whole civilization is facing with
the Climate /Economic /social crisis's we now face .

I just don't see secular solutions anywhere , addressing what we are currently facing, where scientists/economists keep warning us that we cannot continue the way we are.....so the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poorer seems like a recipe for disaster.

The idea and the belief that there is a God , Gods law , true and r tested for 1000's of years gives a moral foundation that is rock solid and not some woke latest fashionable so called modern ideals that come from man......

The first Christmas...
Over 2000 years ago, 3 men from regions around Persia (now Iran) who were well known to each other in their study of science and astronomy, came together due to an astounding event. A star had appeared in the sky, bright and burning and demanding their attention. They knew this was a supernatural event and collaborated and searched historical text and scriptures to find the meaning of this star. They concluded that this was the birth of the Messiah, the son of God foretold hundreds of years earlier and written all through the Hebrew Old testament.
This was the birth of a king and not any king, but the King of all the Kings.
These wise men set out on their journey, following the star and carrying with them gifts fit for a King in gold, frankincense and myrrh. It would be a long journey before they reached the young child.
Meanwhile in a barn in Bethlehem, Mary and Joseph stare down at the feed trough where the baby Jesus lay. There was no room at the Bethlehem Inn due to there being a Roman census and so Mary had her baby in an empty barn.
Joe and Mary and the King, born in a barn, don’t you love the humility that God enjoys seeing. He sees things differently from us and takes the least and makes them the greatest and the sees the high minded and lofty and brings them down low. Meanwhile, angels appear to shepherds who were watching their baby lambs by night and announce to them that their messiah has been born. Fear, wonder and amazement overcome these men and they hurry off to see Him.
The Lamb of God is born and the shepherds are the first to know. God’s son is announced to the basic working man and the rich and powerful science community through the wise men.
The first Adam was born and sinned, bringing death into the world. Jesus, the second Adam, the son of God Himself, would not sin and take all death away upon Himself upon the cross and away from the world. He was the only person in history actually born to die.
God has His way of doing things and that is that.

The world is heading for worsening stormy weather, so set your sails wisely and let God guide you through the coming tempest, after which there will be a great calm to those who trust Him. Your peace and freedom will not come through globalised leaders, technology and modernism; it will come through reverence, simplicity, faith, trust and hope in a son of God who loves you and gave His life for you.

Have a happy and very blessed Christmas with your friends and family. Perhaps read the Christmas story yourself in the New Testament, or attend your local church for a Christmas service which is always a feel good thing, especially if you’re on your own....But, the main thing is to look up, give thanks to Him who gives you life and the closer you draw near, the more abundant that life becomes..... Shalom.

And for anyone considering how Christmas was actually ‘invented’ pls refer to link below… ;);)

- Especially in the true spirit of this thread… the topic is ‘all things religion’.

- Try fill in the gaps for yourself free of belief, delusion or bias ;)

And, of course… merry Xmas to all ;);)

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/topics/christmas/hi...

Merry Xmas Optimist, thank you for your posts.......been an interesting year , and one where faith and belief grew as the secular world seems to be imploding.......

I had a thought yesterday morning about how, we, celebrate Xmas , the birth of Jesus , the joy the hope and finally we have spiritual peace in the knowledge and our relationship with God , with Jesus teaching us love and that he came died for our sins then rose from the dead , so we would have our sins forgiven and eternal life....now that's something worth building on which is our Hope and gives us the parameters of how to live a good life.........meanwhile...

Happy Holidays to all those who see Santa and the idea of feasting/drinking and its all about the presents and what entertainment you can fulfil your life with......

It's rather ironic that we lie to our children about a fat man in a red and white suit called Santa Claus , who if they are good will bring them presents from the North Pole , made by elves , and delivered in a reindeer driven sleigh........WTF.........

when you look at the History of the modern day Santa , he had a make over in the late 1920's by that incredible Health orientated Company ...Coca Cola...ahhh ......now there's something we can all believe in ????

Merry Xmas Optimist, thank you for your posts.......been an interesting year , and one where faith and belief grew as the secular world seems to be imploding.......

I had a thought yesterday morning about how, we, celebrate Xmas , the birth of Jesus , the joy the hope and finally we have spiritual peace in the knowledge and our relationship with God , with Jesus teaching us love and that he came died for our sins then rose from the dead , so we would have our sins forgiven and eternal life....now that's something worth building on which is our Hope and gives us the parameters of how to live a good life.........meanwhile...

Happy Holidays to all those who see Santa and the idea of feasting/drinking and its all about the presents and what entertainment you can fulfil your life with......

It's rather ironic that we lie to our children about a fat man in a red and white suit called Santa Claus , who if they are good will bring them presents from the North Pole , made by elves , and delivered in a reindeer driven sleigh........WTF.........

when you look at the History of the modern day Santa , he had a make over in the late 1920's by that incredible Health orientated Company ...Coca Cola...ahhh ......now there's something we can all believe in ????

Ho ho ho ;););)

https://m.

I dont know what all you Atheists are on about, there are thousands of people in south and central America named Jesus, some even born today. Also god exists hes on facebook. If you dont believe me because there's no evidence, well religion doesnt work that way pal you have to have blind faith.

Merry Christmas , everybody. Today we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ , who is the son of God, who came down to Earth to preach Love, Joy and to have peace in the knowledge that Jesus is our saviour who died on the cross to save us from our sins ,and then was resurrected defeating death to show us the hope of eternal life in Heaven..........so to live a life based on the teachings of Jesus , we celebrate the Gospel and live by it as this is true hope and direction in a World that is now full of suffering and hopelessness.....

Groundswell , Merry Christmas ....not blind faith , but a faith and facts that has stood the test of time and scrutiny .....whereas sad to see people have faith in our secular World , which is cannibalizing/gorging itself on self indulgence , to a point now we can all see the shortcomings of our secular civilization.....

So what do you believe in ?

groundswell wrote:

I dont know what all you Atheists are on about, there are thousands of people in south and central America named Jesus, some even born today. Also god exists hes on facebook. If you dont believe me because there's no evidence, well religion doesnt work that way pal you have to have blind faith.

I believe religion is holding progress back. I believe religion was started as people couldn't explain life or the universe. Thats why we have hundreds of different religions around the world. They all started by well spoken charismatic people who believed they had the answers to questions everyone was asking.
People believed the stories and everyone in different regions had a different version.
Meanwhile science was discovering truths and religions started changing to suit the science findings..such as evolution.
Can you explain to me why Hindus are wrong and your religion is right?

GS, actually the Bible is responsible for the World we live in today.....already tried to discuss ,"the Book that made your World, how the Bible created the soul of Western civilization" by Vishhal Mangalwadi......yes there are a lot of religions and different versions of Christianity..

I don't believe in religions , I believe in a direct relationship with God through his son Jesus Christ...here's a little passage about Jesus's actions in that all people are equal under God.....

The narrative of Jesus’ birth paints a picture of an alternative future where no one need be uninvited to Christmas lunch or feel distant although they eat the same meal.

All the excluded are embraced. Every person equal and welcomed into all of society.

At a time when it was a public disgrace, the mother of God was an unwed pregnant woman. May your Christmas table, your new years’ resolutions and our society regardless of culture or religion reflect this good news that angels sang about. As Mare of Easttown’s Deacon Mark said, “It is not our job to decide who is deserving, our job is only to love.”

groundswell wrote:

I believe religion is holding progress back. I believe religion was started as people couldn't explain life or the universe. Thats why we have hundreds of different religions around the world. They all started by well spoken charismatic people who believed they had the answers to questions everyone was asking.
People believed the stories and everyone in different regions had a different version.
Meanwhile science was discovering truths and religions started changing to suit the science findings..such as evolution.
Can you explain to me why Hindus are wrong and your religion is right?

OK but why are Hindu's wrong?

Hinduism believes that man and animals are the same as they believe in re-incarnation , so you can get reborn as another human or animal......

groundswell wrote:

OK but why are Hindu's wrong?

I'd rather believe that than what ive read in the bible and got taught in school. I was raised a catholic but the more you look around the more you realize it just isn't true.

So you think the Bible isn't true/Jesus isn't true because of what you see around you?

I agree if you look around and watch how people who claim to be Christians behave , but also you have to look at how Hinduism has untouchables/hates Islam .......

I was Anglican till I was 16....a Choir boy/Altar Boy/Sunday school teacher /Boy scout leader....then my parents gave me the choice of what I could do with my life...I picked up the phone and quit the Church....took me 40+ years to refind God/Jesus in a non denomination Church in Hawaii.....the Catholic church has and is compromised in it's teachings and actions...

groundswell wrote:

I'd rather believe that than what ive read in the bible and got taught in school. I was raised a catholic but the more you look around the more you realize it just isn't true.

Like George Carlin once said, the more you look around the more you realize something is just fucked up, results like these dont belong to a superior being they belong to an office temp with a bad attitude...Or something like that.
Also im quoting myself here but nobody really knows what happens when you die, the priests pope and other religious figures have no experience in ever being dead so what the hell would they know?
They are just making this shit up. And why do people need to donate to the church? God made the universe in 6 days he created GOLD! He created platinum he created everything so why cant he make everyone rich? why are the poorest people in the world religious yet never get rich, well rarely.
I understand people need to be religious when they are close to death but its just a crutch imo. Nobody has ever been to heaven and come back so what the hell would a priest know about heaven or hell?

Its all bogus.

the whole idea that the world is fucked up , is mans sin. God's laws and the Gospels set out a formula for us being part of a wonderful world , where everyone is equal....if the riches of the world were evenly distributed , there would be no poverty and misery , this is mans decisions and actions where 50% of the World wealth belongs to 1% of the population....3 days of the USA's military budget would feed the world population for year...... a very small minority of people control al the riches and 1/2 the world suffers....you can't blame God as he provided this incredible place we call planet earth with more than enough resources for all people....it's mans greed that has created our current situation!

groundswell wrote:

Like George Carlin once said, the more you look around the more you realize something is just fucked up, results like these dont belong to a superior being they belong to an office temp with a bad attitude...Or something like that.
Also im quoting myself here but nobody really knows what happens when you die, the priests pope and other religious figures have no experience in ever being dead so what the hell would they know?
They are just making this shit up. And why do people need to donate to the church? God made the universe in 6 days he created GOLD! He created platinum he created everything so why cant he make everyone rich? why are the poorest people in the world religious yet never get rich, well rarely.
I understand people need to be religious when they are close to death but its just a crutch imo. Nobody has ever been to heaven and come back so what the hell would a priest know about heaven or hell?

Its all bogus.

Merry Christmas all.

thank God and the church groups for the giving to the poor/needy and lonely.....

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/dec/25/pudding-and-ppe-c...

On this day remembering my parents and past family Christmas lunches shared with elderly single neighbours who otherwise would be alone on the day. There was always room at the table and dad always made sure everyone had a good feed and beer or wine. More good samaritan than religious.

Merry Xmas GS....what a great story.....just so you know the Good Samaritan is a parable direct from Jesus....

GuySmiley wrote:

On this day remembering my parents and past family Christmas lunches shared with elderly single neighbours who otherwise would be alone on the day. There was always room at the table and dad always made sure everyone had a good feed and beer or wine. More good samaritan than religious.

Merry Christmas brutus

Merry Christmas everyone including you Brutus despite differing beliefs.
By the way if you are who i think you are i like your shapes. especially the deep concaves ive seen from my standup shark island friends, back when i rode a lid.

Also regarding what you said about the USA military budget, slightly off topic but the spotify CEO just invested millions or billions( i forget which)into the USA military industry and development..so please people dont use spotify.

GS , my point with the military budget was to show how may people are living in poverty , with 1/2 the Global population earning less than $2 a day....yet we in the West waste so much money and resources on well just about everything....which is the opposite to what Jesus preached and the teachings of the Bible....
It is becoming clearer everyday that out excess's and waste have become the normal behaviour of a Secular World cannibalizing itself , with no thought, or very little...that the money and resources we waste is enough to feed/cloth and offer better lives for the people who are not so fortunate as us.....
That's where I personally, with Christian values ( which are tested everyday and I am still working on changing former habits and behaviour ) see humans as a collective, all equal , and I feel and know we could do a lot better....but our society has become incredibly self centred and divisive......so what do you actually believe in ?

groundswell wrote:

Also regarding what you said about the USA military budget, slightly off topic but the spotify CEO just invested millions or billions( i forget which)into the USA military industry and development..so please people dont use spotify.

Brutus
Morrison and Biden are both committed chrtistians -- and they just rolled out the aukus multi-billion dollar submarine deal. secular ethics have nothing to do with it with waste inequity and inequality.
being a Christian or an atheist is not what make a person and their actions good or bad. being good or bad is what makes a person and their actions good or bad.

chook wrote:

Brutus
Morrison and Biden are both committed chrtistians -- and they just rolled out the aukus multi-billion dollar submarine deal. secular ethics have nothing to do with it with waste inequity and inequality.
being a Christian or an atheist is not what make a person and their actions good or bad. being good or bad is what makes a person and their actions good or bad.

How does ensuring having the defence force needed to protect yourself or protect or help other countries make any leader a bad person though?

It should also be noted most military capacity is not so much about wanting to use it, but more about ensuring others don't use military action against you.

Spotify owned by Swedes pumping $$$ into US military?

Im not sure if it was US military but a lot of artists have pulled their profiles and songs off spotify due to the CEO's decisions. Could be Swedish military weapon development i dont know..read it about a week ago.

chook , Scomo and Biden are not true Christians in the sense that they do not pass the Jesus test.....their actions do not pass the Jesus test.
The Christian World is riddled with different sects that have used the Bible and the worship of Christianity , in becoming the middleman between God and the people who attend various Churches.
It's so easy the Jesus test.....when there is ever a question, or a need for interpretation of the Bible , especially the Gospels which is what Jesus preached.........Politicians fail miserably , as they have to put $'s and their power first........
The whole scam of us getting submarines, spending $2.7B in France ( on what?) then changing and buying off the USA because of China is almost laughable when you think , why would China attack Australia , when all they have to do is stop sending container Ships here, we would be bankrupt in a month, economy and lifestyle decimated....same with the USA , they rely on China to keep their economy going....which pays for the military.....

Being good or bad is exactly what Jesus defines for us.......and the Bible...otherwise who makes up what is right and wrong?

chook wrote:

Brutus
Morrison and Biden are both committed chrtistians -- and they just rolled out the aukus multi-billion dollar submarine deal. secular ethics have nothing to do with it with waste inequity and inequality.
being a Christian or an atheist is not what make a person and their actions good or bad. being good or bad is what makes a person and their actions good or bad.

GS where did you read it....??

groundswell wrote:

Im not sure if it was US military but a lot of artists have pulled their profiles and songs off spotify due to the CEO's decisions. Could be Swedish military weapon development i dont know..read it about a week ago.

Brutus lots of articles online about Spotify CEO Daniel Ek investing €100m in an European artificial intelligence defence startup Hesling.

Nice to hear from you gsco , hope ya had a great Xmas!

Wow just read your link , once again people who are filthy rich come up with their scenarios/ideas and then want to spend incredible amounts of resources indulging their fantasy's , why...because they can...Bezos/Musk...lets go to Mars as an example , now "Daniel Ek commented: “We founded Prima Materia to advance ambitious science and technology to solve the world’s biggest challenges and help society progress towards a better future"

How do you reconcile the empty rhetoric Dan , with whats really going on in the Global society.....or maybe he is just talking about the West?

gsco wrote:

Brutus lots of articles online about Spotify CEO Daniel Ek investing €100m in an European artificial intelligence defence startup Hesling.

Brutus i read it on facebook, i believe it was a post by Dave Clarke, one of my favorite techno dj's page.

hey GS, the link gsco posted tells the story....read my reply above...will also have a listen to Dave Clarke......I love house/techno etc.....

groundswell wrote:

Brutus i read it on facebook, i believe it was a post by Dave Clarke, one of my favorite techno dj's page.

brutus wrote:

I love house/techno etc...

Another day, another revelation.

Always fascinates me to find out what kind of music people are into. I can just imagine Brutus getting out the planer with Ministry of Sound on full clip.

Did you see David Guetta's tribute to George Floyd? A bit cringe.

thermalben....mate am one of the original hard ravers from UK 80's ....had my own night club/cave in MR .....live DJ's ......just listened to Dave Clarke as per Groundswell .....I am afraid nearly threw my back out listening to , " what was her name(feet chicks on speed)....ah gone are the days of dancing non-stop for 8 hrs,LOL!

Epic.

My knowledge of electronica is a little thin on the ground but I've got a couple of go-to albums when required.

brutus wrote:

thermalben....mate am one of the original hard ravers from UK 80's ....had my own night club/cave in MR .....live DJ's ......just listened to Dave Clarke as per Groundswell .....I am afraid nearly threw my back out listening to , " what was her name(feet chicks on speed)....ah gone are the days of dancing non-stop for 8 hrs,LOL!

Ha, nice one Brutus...rave to the grave!
I was an 80/90s house/techno dj and warehouse party promoter. spent ten years djing in New York.

Here's Dave Clark's remix of Rob Hood....a fave!

And here's one of the my own tracks...

Brutus says…

‘Being good or bad is exactly what Jesus defines for us.......and the Bible...otherwise who makes up what is right and wrong?’

- If you aren’t capable of defining that for yourself as an adult then you’re a tad cooked ;);)

And another unrelated gem:

‘once again people who are filthy rich come up with their scenarios/ideas and then want to spend incredible amounts of resources indulging their fantasy's , why...because they can…’

Brutus people do this regardless of being filthy rich or not…

And, in this context, in your words :

‘mate am one of the original hard ravers from UK 80's ....had my own night club/cave in MR .....live DJ's ......’

Funny shit ;);)
Jesus loves raving too… even been seen racking up and doing pingas ;);)
All things religion indeed !

Maybe time for an actual quote…

‘I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.’

- Susan B. Anthony

Jelly...So where do you get your sense of right and wrong from?

as far as my comment on how rich people indulge in their delusional ideas....5% of the population own 80% of the earths assets.....lets go to Mars and live in bubble/bigger armies and military hardware that never get used........we get to comment but do not have the resources to make any actions......so yeah the mega rich run the World at our expense!

Yeah I have had a very colourful life , not much I haven't done or tried that's why I can understand the secular world and its desires and shortcomings , and learning about Jesus and his teaching makes a shit load more sense than anything I have seen or lived till now.

As far as your quote from ol susy......LOL.....I have had to change all my desires and lifestyle as there's new evolving Brutus that has and is a better person than before..evolution is the revolution!

we don't need god to know what right or wrong.
we all know it's wrong to steal from your grandmother, throw a snake in my back yard over the fence on the neighbours, and sleep with the wife's best friend.
where god helps is with temptation -- we need help doing the right thing, not knowing what is right.

and here's a surfing example of an ethical system not derived from god -- no dropping in, no snaking. I think that we can all agree that this ethical system doesn't derive from god. instead, it comes from a social contract based on rationality. I agree to not drop in on you if you agree to not drop in on me. as surfers it's in our rational interest to follow these rules. we all get more waves and all stay safer.
the hard part of this ethical system is resisting the temptation to drop in. but it's one that we all know.

Summed it up well chook

Father Bob is coming upon Anhs Brush - ABC

chook , any idea where man got his sense of right and wrong? If you believe there is no God/Jesus/Bible that is relevant in your current life and you evolved from monkeys......where did right and wrong come from?

I read that you do believe in God , but he only helps out with temptation?

When you say "we need help doing the right thing, not knowing what is right." if you don't know what is right you ask God to help do the right thing? How would you know what temptation/the wrong thing without knowing what is right?

Your example of surfing is an interesting one as the sense of right and wrong changed from dropping in and as the crowds increased , snaking ( jumping the queue) became a problem as up until 20-30 yrs ago....everybody took turns before legropes , as dropping in was met with a smack in the head , because more likely than not you would lose your board and have to swim to the beach. But the rule were constantly broken if a much lesser surfer wanted the wave of the day and a hot local was in place ...there always was a type of elitism in the old days.....as there is now....more drop ins now than I have ever seen, as we have beginner adult surfers who don't have a clue , so the whole drop in rule is merely a guideline !

chook wrote:

we don't need god to know what right or wrong.
we all know it's wrong to steal from your grandmother, throw a snake in my back yard over the fence on the neighbours, and sleep with the wife's best friend.
where god helps is with temptation -- we need help doing the right thing, not knowing what is right.

and here's a surfing example of an ethical system not derived from god -- no dropping in, no snaking. I think that we can all agree that this ethical system doesn't derive from god. instead, it comes from a social contract based on rationality. I agree to not drop in on you if you agree to not drop in on me. as surfers it's in our rational interest to follow these rules. we all get more waves and all stay safer.
the hard part of this ethical system is resisting the temptation to drop in. but it's one that we all know.

So indigenous Australians did not know right from wrong before the European invasion?