The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
Roadkill that’s because Jelly is either a Satanist or a complete clueless moron.
Dill…
All you are saying is that you don’t understand the power of changing approaches ;) … changing methods … and the overall potential and possibilities of change.
That requires courage. Real courage.
- history will repeat if we don’t learn what doesn’t work… and change.
Military ‘solutions’ are not solutions.
Why continue forcing something that will not accomplish anything other than further suffering, heartache… and death.
But yeah… grab ya pop corn, and a beer…
- ground invasion is a GO ;)
https://m.
&pp=ygURQW1lcmljYSBmdWNrIHllYWg%3D yeh, because discrediting avi was the most important part of that post
AP confession anyone? ...yeh nah...
your intersection is broken
indo-dreaming wrote:Great video on the tunnels, this aspect to me is so scary those fuckers are said to have hundreds of kilometres of tunnels, they would known them back to front and be able to appear and disappear and pop up anywhere they want taking Israel soldiers by surprise, they probably have tunnels purposely built just to lure troops in then trap them obviously booby trapped too, hamas would have been planning for this moment for years.
Israel loose any advantage they have in equipment wise, while Hamas gain a huge advantage, it's hard to understand how they can get rid of Hamas from these tunnels.
In a sense going in on the ground is exactly what Hamas want its almost like a trap, but one Israel dont have a choice in entering , scary stuff.
500km + is the Hamas claim..but they will exaggerate it.
That is some scary shit…Israel will lose hundreds if they send troops in…bobby traps galore and I would not put it past them to use deadly gas as a defence.
Optimist, You’re worse than Johnny Farnham with these comeback tours. Hey Peanut!
Edit.. Burliegh I stole your shit.
Notice flopti …
I didn’t include you in the fab 5 ;);)
Coz you’re a sub human bigoted fraud…
- but yeah… clue us into planet heaven ;);)
Ya farkn brain dead fantasy wizard…
- keep making shit up ;)
Jelly Flater wrote:Dill…
All you are saying is that you don’t understand the power of changing approaches ;) … changing methods … and the overall potential and possibilities of change.
That requires courage. Real courage.
- history will repeat if we don’t learn what doesn’t work… and change.Military ‘solutions’ are not solutions.
Why continue forcing something that will not accomplish anything other than further suffering, heartache… and death.But yeah… grab ya pop corn, and a beer…
- ground invasion is a GO ;)https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TmoeZHnOJKA&pp=ygURQW1lcmljYSBmdWNrIHllYWg%3D
You can’t negotiate with indoctrinated clowns that see being martyred and getting the 72 virgins as a reward.
Let me say it again for you. Terrorists don’t negotiate peaceful outcomes.
Of course.
- and crazy zionist indoctrination and fanatical ideology has a place at the table ? That’s the other side of the coin…
No peace there either dill
- it takes two to tango, u know that mr macro ;)
Neither does Israel Roadkill.Give me some examples if I’m wrong.
Seeds, does Israel have the right to defend itself now and in the future?
"Tell me pls... how will escalating anything bring a result ?"
ask hamas maybe...
this was their goal...
their initiation...
pretty easy to take your supposed neutral position jellyman...
oh so so easy...
the hard part is... what should israel do?
just lay down... say that wasn't cool... war is racket... you want to blow us of the face of the earth... but we're cool with that... your whole mission is to blow us of the face of the earth - you said so - in no uncertain terms...
but we're cool with that
because war is a racket
and, sit back and wait...
for the inevitable
BOOM
ratatatat...
again...
interesting 'tactic'
or, you got something else?
too easy to sit in your high tower of supposed impartiality rapunzal
way way too easy...
(fwiw, I don't agree with any of it either... but machine guns at rave parties aren't cool...
neither is the whole corrupt media complex stoking the fire on a lie...
there's no un-doing what they just did... and for me, thay are as nasty, stupid, blind, zealous, religious, complicit and evil as anyone...)
Pretty easy to be a keyboard peace negotiator on swellnet…full of ideas that simply don’t work in the real world.
Aid trucks being unloaded live. plus some extra bombing that the camera shows on occasion
to the Hamas supporters in these forums and rallying in the street today across Australia and the globe, it would pay to remember that:
Also, this is not a conflict of Hamas vs Israel. This, combined with Ukraine, is part of the wider conflict of the West vs Russia, China and Iran. The survival of our very way of life is at risk. It's no longer a fun little game of getting one's head stuck up Chomsky's arse and taking the piss out of the US military-industrial complex.
Oh we’ll wonder why this is happening now. Geniuses perpetuating the status quo. Wonder what would happened without England’s lies. Wonder what would happen without USA bankrolling since 48. Wonder why the West’s latest own goal is turning to shit. Again.
sypkan wrote:"Tell me pls... how will escalating anything bring a result ?"
ask hamas maybe...
this was their goal...
their initiation...
pretty easy to take your supposed neutral position jellyman...
oh so so easy...
the hard part is... what should israel do?
just lay down... say that wasn't cool... war is racket... you want to blow us of the face of the earth... but we're cool with that... your whole mission is to blow us of the face of the earth - you said so - in no uncertain terms...
but we're cool with that
because war is a racket
and, sit back and wait...
for the inevitable
BOOM
ratatatat...
again...
interesting 'tactic'
or, you got something else?
too easy to sit in your high tower of supposed impartiality rapunzal
way way too easy...
(fwiw, I don't agree with any of it either... but machine guns at rave parties aren't cool...
neither is the whole corrupt media complex stoking the fire on a lie...
there's no un-doing what they just did... and for me, thay are as nasty, stupid, blind, zealous, religious, complicit and evil as anyone...)
Shit splinter arse is starting to wobble.
Haha ;)
Yes dill, the real world of warmongering…
- and syp, u go hero, gear up ;) boom! Go get em (while u sit on ya finger in your tower of imagined patriotic pleasure driven retribution)
Still laughing at flopti after I confirmed my anti war stance …
- that makes me… an anti war satanist ;););)
Haha…
Get ya chubs on boys, it’s time for war aaargh… payback yay…
U bunch of farkn heinous hyenas ;);)
Roadkill wrote:Seeds, does Israel have the right to defend itself now and in the future?
I really don’t know. Don’t know if that’s a valid question with their oppression of people. Certainly don’t know when the USA supports this. We support this.
Do Palestinians have that right to not put up with this shit?
Take the blinkers off mate. Blinkers have created this. Self righteous blinkers.
seeds wrote:sypkan wrote:"Tell me pls... how will escalating anything bring a result ?"
ask hamas maybe...
this was their goal...
their initiation...
pretty easy to take your supposed neutral position jellyman...
oh so so easy...
the hard part is... what should israel do?
just lay down... say that wasn't cool... war is racket... you want to blow us of the face of the earth... but we're cool with that... your whole mission is to blow us of the face of the earth - you said so - in no uncertain terms...
but we're cool with that
because war is a racket
and, sit back and wait...
for the inevitable
BOOM
ratatatat...
again...
interesting 'tactic'
or, you got something else?
too easy to sit in your high tower of supposed impartiality rapunzal
way way too easy...
(fwiw, I don't agree with any of it either... but machine guns at rave parties aren't cool...
neither is the whole corrupt media complex stoking the fire on a lie...
there's no un-doing what they just did... and for me, thay are as nasty, stupid, blind, zealous, religious, complicit and evil as anyone...)
Shit splinter arse is starting to wobble.
says the guy that a few a pages back said...
'I'm on the fence with this one'
but shows with every post his broken intersection...
Fuck off dickhead. Context!
jellyman...
I'm not telling anyone to go get anyone
I have criticised israel
as I said, my issue is with the media reporting, that has just justified the nutters to nut...
there's no un-doing that moment of outright extreme recklessness...
these 'journalists' should have known better
but yeh, easy to sit in your tower champ
let down your hair rapunzal, let us in... tell us what you really think
because currently, you're looking more pisa than rapunzal...
hit a nerve broken intersection?
don't hold back
justify yourself... your position...
mr. having it both ways...
(with a clearly broken intersection)
Hilarious. He says… Mr both ways. Haha that’s your MO. Can’t be wrong from your pulpit fence paling no matter what your argument can you. Pissweak as claimed bi-partisan. Lots of words though, to feed your ego.
there is no ego to feed...
not much right or wrong either, from my perspective...
(except the media, academia, the uni's, the activists... again...)
Shit!! How boring. Sucks to be you. You certainly are busy though. All the best.
gsco wrote:to the Hamas supporters in these forums and rallying in the street today across Australia and the globe, it would pay to remember that:
Also, this is not a conflict of Hamas vs Israel. This, combined with Ukraine, is part of the wider conflict of the West vs Russia, China and Iran. The survival of our very way of life is at risk. It's no longer a fun little game of getting one's head stuck up Chomsky's arse and taking the piss out of the US military-industrial complex.
A week ago i would have probably said nah its about history, land, ethnicity with a religious aspect but after binging on all kinds of view points on all kinds of aspects, id say you are kinda right, its really not so much about those things they are more an excuse it's more about an extreme Islamic ideology and in a sense an attack on the West and all that we believe in no matter if you are left, or right or religious or atheist, like it or not Israel represent the West in the middle east and much of what we all believe in and share.
Iran & others support that campaign and fuel Hamas, while China & Russia are just happy to see the West weakened.
Ive heard all kinds of view points on if it will escalate to something bigger and how much others will get involved , obviously USA have concerns and even shot down some missiles heading Israel's way from Yemen but then others (like this Geopolitical guy below) seem to think others wont get involved past opportunistic cheap shots just trying to inflame the situation, although hard to know who or what take to believe.
"Also, this is not a conflict of Hamas vs Israel. This, combined with Ukraine, is part of the wider conflict of the West vs Russia, China and Iran. The survival of our very way of life is at risk. It's no longer a fun little game of getting one's head stuck up Chomsky's arse and taking the piss out of the US military-industrial complex."
yep, sadly that seems to be about where we are at
and the world would actually know about it if it wasn't obama and biden that got iran so wrong...
media still running cover for obama and biden
well, as much as they possibly can...
for now
In Australia, in the USA, in the UK, you can follow and practice any religion, there are no laws against any one cultural group, religious group or ethnic group. You can openly denounce the prime ministers, president and members of parliament, you can create art and music criticising them and taking the piss. Same to the police and military. You can vote and you can start a political party or run as an independent.
In a lot of countries, such as Russia and China, you can't do any of that, or in Gaza.
You can promote communism and socialism and form communes and start worker run enterprises, businesses and factories here... but can you enjoy democratic freedoms in China and Russia? In Gaza? Can you criticise the government? Form your own political party? Start your own newspaper or media account? Create art that you like? Marry who you like? You can here.
As a young punk / anarchist, hanging out in squats, blocking streets, protesting, vandalising, blaming the west for everything, I didn't see how good it is here. I looked for oppression so I could yell 'see, the west is fucked'.
Then I grew up.
I became thankful.
I took responsibility for my actions.
I understood that utopia doesn't exist.
I realised I can't help everyone and that some don't want help (even when they complain).
Life is more enjoyable now :)
This won't change anything in the middle east but it helps me have a clearer understanding and more peaceful countenance when approaching these issues.
There's a reason why people want to move here and the USA and UK. There's not so many people that want to move to Russia or China or Gaza.
Appreciate what you have. Others risk their lives to move to the west.
Patrick - I like U !
U are willing AND able , to learn from experience .
Amazingly , there are a few people moving to Russia .
A small number of Germans and other European countries are sick of the WOKE West .
Decided they want to live in a place that respects family , culture and religion .
I say that thinking it is a mistake for israel to go into gaza...
there's no going back from that shit
and it will set the trajectories of the many dominos that are already lined up to fall...
but hamas has given them little choice
they initiated all this knowing full well what they were doing
really, honestly, interested in hearing jellyman's (and others) real 'solutions'...
I will put one out there... squeeze hamas out of gaza in a slower, more painful, slow burn, isolation technique...
but seems israel - and the world- doesn't have the patience, the will, or the pragmatism for that though...
yep, good onya patrick...
I think a lot of us have been there
technically no squats for me... though I must've done years in the back if a car and bush camps...
some of us grow up
and grow appreciation...
'and then i grew up,....'
and some of us have friends over there..so it ain't so easy when it's..ya know, kinda real life and all.
And some of us put ourselves in other people's shoe's because fark, i'd hope if i was in their situation, they'd do the same for me...and care. Hope to make a small difference somehow...collectively.
I guess i'm just immature though.
Enjoy your new found utopia within though!
If you want some insight how Iran came to be as it is, this is a good read. Very personal perspective of someone who lived over Iran's turbulent times and had very strong ties with USA.
https://www.amazon.com.au/Daughter-Persia-Journey-Fathers-Revolution/dp/...
Patrick wrote:In Australia, in the USA, in the UK, you can follow and practice any religion, there are no laws against any one cultural group, religious group or ethnic group. You can openly denounce the prime ministers, president and members of parliament, you can create art and music criticising them and taking the piss. Same to the police and military. You can vote and you can start a political party or run as an independent.
In a lot of countries, such as Russia and China, you can't do any of that, or in Gaza.
You can promote communism and socialism and form communes and start worker run enterprises, businesses and factories here... but can you enjoy democratic freedoms in China and Russia? In Gaza? Can you criticise the government? Form your own political party? Start your own newspaper or media account? Create art that you like? Marry who you like? You can here.
As a young punk / anarchist, hanging out in squats, blocking streets, protesting, vandalising, blaming the west for everything, I didn't see how good it is here. I looked for oppression so I could yell 'see, the west is fucked'.
Then I grew up.
I became thankful.
I took responsibility for my actions.
I understood that utopia doesn't exist.
I realised I can't help everyone and that some don't want help (even when they complain).Life is more enjoyable now :)
This won't change anything in the middle east but it helps me have a clearer understanding and more peaceful countenance when approaching these issues.
There's a reason why people want to move here and the USA and UK. There's not so many people that want to move to Russia or China or Gaza.
Appreciate what you have. Others risk their lives to move to the west.
100% very well said and put perfectly, along with that sam Harris post the best post of the thread.
Only thing is i would have left out "the i grew up" just because as you see it offends people, and its a process and point that not everyone will ever go through or reach. (just saying that will trigger people)
How do you think you came to that point?
I had exactly the same thing, i think my eyes were awaken through a longer process of seeing how lucky i was compared to how my wife grew up a poorer Catholic family in a Muslim country and seeing real corruption and true poverty in Indonesia and the effects of this like two seperate friends die from child birth in remote communities, then you start looking at the bigger picture of how lucky we really are.
This video is more about methods of how you analysis events like the hospital attack, but it points out aspects of what you are saying too to do with freedoms, governments sand media
&t=2sBTW. I found out this week one of the husbands of the wife's who died at childbirth (as did the baby) A while back got 20 years in prison for corruption, he had become kepala desa (village chief) and pocketed big money suppose to be for community infrastructure projects, i guess being truely dirt poor and never having access to decent money greed got the better of him.
Andy-mac, I have read that book. An interesting personal story but also shows the huge ramifications for Amercian meddling.
The American backed coup derailed so much progress and a path to what seemed a good future for Iran - especially for women. That sowed the seeds for the revolution.
Control of oil was at the heart of it. But when you have agencies such as the CIA and MI6 whose job it is to stir the geopolitical pot, they will do so to justify their existence.
Who knows what the ME would be like without the initial fragmentation of borders by the UK way back to split up the ethnic and religious groups to create some chaos.
If more natural borders had evolved, probably some very strong, wealthy countries would have emerged controlling oil. That could have been good for the people.
But if you imagine the UK/USA money and power class facing say 5 Saudi Arabia type (strong and stable) countries in the ME with all the oil, would they have let that happen? I doubt it. So conflict would have come anyway in different ways - maybe even worse.
Remember, the UK/US strategy for oil rich regions is pretty simple:
Plan A - get neat and tidy control of the resource
if that fails....
Plan B - create chaos - not too hot, not too cold, just enough - to allow .... messier control of the resource and to stuff up those who don't comply
frog wrote:Andy-mac, I have read that book. An interesting personal story but also shows the huge ramifications for Amercian meddling.
The American backed coup derailed so much progress and a path to what seemed a good future for Iran - especially for women. That sowed the seeds for the revolution.
Control of oil was at the heart of it. But when you have agencies such as the CIA and MI6 whose job it is to stir the geopolitical pot, they will do so to justify their existence.
Who knows what the ME would be like without the initial fragmentation of borders by the UK way back to split up the ethnic and religious groups to create some chaos.
If more natural borders had evolved, probably some very strong, wealthy countries would have emerged controlling oil. That could have been good for the people.
But if you imagine the UK/USA money and power class facing say 5 Saudi Arabia type countries in the ME with all the oil, would they have let that happen? I doubt it. So conflict would have come anyway in different ways - maybe even worse.
Remember, the UK/US strategy for oil rich regions is pretty simple:
Plan A - get neat and tidy control of the resource
if that fails....
Plan B - create chaos - not too hot, not too cold, just enough - to allow .... messier control of the resource
Yep.
Very interesting personal perspective.
She was huge fan of USA and felt betrayed by their actions in the end.
Who are the men in the shadows? 30 year old song as relevant today as it was when released.
https://m.
&t=84s&pp=ygUjamFja3NvbiBicm93bmUgbGl2ZXMgaW4gdGhlIGJhbGFuY2U%3D andy-mac wrote:frog wrote:Andy-mac, I have read that book. An interesting personal story but also shows the huge ramifications for Amercian meddling.
The American backed coup derailed so much progress and a path to what seemed a good future for Iran - especially for women. That sowed the seeds for the revolution.
Control of oil was at the heart of it. But when you have agencies such as the CIA and MI6 whose job it is to stir the geopolitical pot, they will do so to justify their existence.
Who knows what the ME would be like without the initial fragmentation of borders by the UK way back to split up the ethnic and religious groups to create some chaos.
If more natural borders had evolved, probably some very strong, wealthy countries would have emerged controlling oil. That could have been good for the people.
But if you imagine the UK/USA money and power class facing say 5 Saudi Arabia type countries in the ME with all the oil, would they have let that happen? I doubt it. So conflict would have come anyway in different ways - maybe even worse.
Remember, the UK/US strategy for oil rich regions is pretty simple:
Plan A - get neat and tidy control of the resource
if that fails....
Plan B - create chaos - not too hot, not too cold, just enough - to allow .... messier control of the resourceYep.
Very interesting personal perspective.
She was huge fan of USA and felt betrayed by their actions in the end.Who are the men in the shadows? 30 year old song as relevant today as it was when released.
https://m.
&t=84s&pp=ygUjamFja3NvbiBicm93bmUgbGl2ZXMgaW4gdGhlIGJhbGFuY2U%3D
Sorry posted video of music clip, did not realise age restriction.
Nothing worse on it than what you would see on news... Please remove if not ok.
That's not correct at all. It's more like anti-US/UK/West conspiracy theory.
Reza Shah Pahlavi was the Shah of Iran from 1925 to 1941. He initiated the revival and regeneration of Iran.
He was succeeded by his son Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, who was the Shah of Iran from 1941 until the Islamic revolution in 1979. The son was pro-Western and continued the positive progress and development of Iran that his father initiated and its path to modernisation.
In the early 50s there was a struggle for power between the Shah and the Iranian nationalist Mohammad Mosaddegh, who held power only between 1951 to 1953.
The US/UK assisted (not backed) coup removed Mosaddegh from power and restored the Shah. Mosaddegh was a hardline nationalist, largely anti-Western, and tried to nationalise Iran's oil industry, thus forcing Western interests out of it and inflicting economic pain on the country. (He was also a lunatic.)
It's also not correct to try to claim that the US was responsible for the 1979 Islamic revolution. Of course there was all kinds of social, religious, economic, political, cultural, etc, dynamics and undercurrents leading up to that.
People really need to stop trying to blame all of the world's problems on the US and more generally the West.
gsco wrote:That's not correct at all. It's more like anti-US/UK/West conspiracy theory.
Reza Shah Pahlavi was the Shah of Iran from 1925 to 1941. He initiated the revival and regeneration of Iran.
He was succeeded by his son Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, who was the Shah of Iran from 1941 until the Islamic revolution in 1979. He was pro-Western and continued the positive progress and development of Iran that his father initiated and its path to modernisation.
In the early 50s there was a struggle for power between the Shah and the Iranian nationalist Mohammad Mosaddegh, who held power only between 1951 to 1953.
The US/UK assisted (not backed) coup removed Mosaddegh from power and restored the Shah. Mosaddegh was a hardline nationalist, largely anti-Western, and tried to nationalise Iran's oil industry, thus forcing western interests out of it and inflicting economic pain on the country. (He was also a lunatic.)
It's also not correct to try to claim that the US was responsible for the 1979 Islamic revolution. Of course there was all kinds of social, religious, economic, political, cultural, etc, dynamics and undercurrents leading up to that.
People really need to stop trying to blame all of the world's problems on the US and more generally the West.
Yeah maybe.
No blaming, just pointing out what was a personal perspective from someone who lived through the time and experienced both cultures.
She wrote a book of her experience and thoughts.
Good that you can comment as you must have read the book.
Meanwhile the trunk of a large animal can be seen at the doorway.
Starts at 27 minute mark.
southernraw wrote:'and then i grew up,....'
and some of us have friends over there..so it ain't so easy when it's..ya know, kinda real life and all.
And some of us put ourselves in other people's shoe's because fark, i'd hope if i was in their situation, they'd do the same for me...and care. Hope to make a small difference somehow...collectively.
I guess i'm just immature though.
Enjoy your new found utopia within though!
Replace with "And then I changed".
On an internet forum not all intent and tone of a sentence or post is easy to read.
Right before the covid malarky I was planning a trip to Lebanon to hike the mountain trail. Meeting a friend who travels to the Middle East a lot (and was kidnappef by Islamic extremists in Kyrgyzstan over twenty years ago, He was held for a week). When we were chatting he was in Oman.
I was keen to then see more of the ME, like Syria, Iran and Palestine/Israel. (A stamp in the passport from some countries will prevent you from being allowed into Israel and vice versa though).
A large motivation of the trip was to get to know culrures and people in far away places that the Aus government shapes forign policy around and that are in the media a lot for terrible reasons like fighting, hatred and destruction. I was going there to connect with people as well as see beautiful architecture and landscapes and view a different world than what is focused on by the media.
Changing from someone who was looking for reasons to justify his anger meant I would have been travelling with peace in my heart. Twenty year old me used to speak with anger in my heart (especially about Israel).
As I said, this doesn't change what is happening over there.
gsco, been a while since I read it so details a bit foggy. The author was pro US and educated there but went back to Iran and put an amazing amount of energy into their education system. The revolution was a tragedy unravelling years of her work and turning student against popular teacher almost overnight. Power, revenge, jeolosy and theft motivated revolutionaruies as much as religion.
The book gives a snapshot of a time when the US was much more clearly a force for good in the world. Various US organistions assisted and inspired her and others arund tbe world a great deal.
But my observation of the West's core strategy of "get control" by meddling or might (corporate, resources and political) or if that fails and chaos develops that is a good second best option is the only way to make sense of the US approach to the Middle East (plus add in a decent dollop of incompetence and wishful thinking in their plans).
What appears to be an endless stream of incompetent failed wars and meddling (Iraq, Lybia, Syria etc) actually makes more sense once one realises there are benefits from the "failure":
- weak, wrongfooted rivals (regional and larger rivals)
- MIC $$$$
- Pentagon $$$$
- rebuilding $$$$ for the US companies who go in
- sneakier oil control via companies who can operate in semi chaos
Then you have the Lindsay Graham crazies who have no limits to what they advocate in terms of war and death for non Americans adding a dangerous dimension to everything.
Anti West? That assumes I think the alternatives are better. More a picture of reality. But it is brutal stuff. What has been done to Ukraine, for example has been a disaster for the country. Lybia the same.. Syria the same. No destruction seems too much.
The age of Britain, Spain, Portugal etc. duking it out on the high seas and capturing wealth through war and raids was upfront and obvious. Noone pretended it was not a fight for riches. It continues today with much better PR and massive media control - we are promoting freedom / democracy as the threadbare cloak of virtue.
Ok fair enough then. Thanks.
Sounds like you're looking through a lens with some depth.
For perspective, i'm checking in with my friend every day.
She lives less than 50km away from the most dangerous place on the planet at present, but then, having said that, she's probably in the safest place in the whole region....for the moment.
She's scared for her families life, her future, her countries future, how the rest of the world perceives her country, how life looks going forward, and how the trauma of this period will affect her and her country.
She's just an ordinary person like you and i going about her business.
Then on the other extreme i've got a friend in another part of the middle east who i'm in regular contact with who's a vocal Palestinian sympathiser, but who is also finding justification for Hamas.
It's interesting to chat to the two sides of the coin that are currently living in those regions. I'm finding my own views constantly challenged and i'm finding the more i learn, the less i know about the whole conflict.
Like everybody on this thread, no one wants to see innocent people dying.
But they are and I guess reading your post about us living in a lucky country where we're free to do what ever we like, isn't really going to change that too much right now.
I understand. I was posting in response to the broader topic about west vs china, russia etc. that was brought up.
It's good that your friends have someone who is listening. My mate who was held hostage was very traumatised. Partly because he didn't have anyone to talk to during it and after it. A lot of his friends and community didn't believe him (that has now changed).
Having someone to listen is quite powerful. You might feel powerless but I'm sure having you listen is good for them.
This is the terrible reality of war. The trauma that people go throgh. My mate is still dealing with it.
Geez that's full on @patrick. Can't imagine what your mate must have been through.
Yeah good points.
Probably why these threads can be useful too.
Cheers and have a good day.
frog wrote:But my observation of the West's core strategy of "get control" by meddling or might (corporate, resources and political) or if that fails and chaos develops that is a good second best option is the only way to make sense of the US approach to the Middle East (plus add in a decent dollop of incompetence and wishful thinking in their plans).
What appears to be an endless stream of incompetent failed wars and meddling (Iraq, Lybia, Syria etc) actually makes more sense once one realises there are benefits from the "failure":
- weak, wrongfooted rivals (regional and larger rivals)
- MIC $$$$
- Pentagon $$$$
- rebuilding $$$$ for the US companies who go in
- sneakier oil control via companies who can operate in semi chaos
All of the above and more. The US is not just a double-edged sword; it's an infinite-edged one.
I think one way to look at it is we're still just living in the post-WWII unipolar period in which the US rose to be the sole power, and now many countries - particularly China and Russia, even the Islamic kingdom - are seeking to restore their previous standing and power.
For ~5,000 yrs this thing loosely defined as "the West" jockeyed for position with "the East" (basically China) as the most powerful and developed "peoples". But this period was a very disconnected and low technology planet. Then the industrial and scientific revolution in the West, the adoption of communism in Russia and China, the great wars, etc, all quickly changed that.
The US, a relatively new nation, then found itself as the hegemon, a role it had no experience with and in a much more connected and technologically advanced world. Also, this hegemon power is continually getting undermined, eroded and dismantled by disgruntled, resentful peoples and nations. Also throw religion into the mix, etc.
Consequently, I think that a lot of what's sold and viewed as US evil is really just well intentioned US mistakes. And in turn, a lot of what's viewed and sold as US mistakes is really US failures, particularly due to being undermined by disgruntled players and their attempts to dismantle US power and backed up by their full blown anti-US/West propaganda machines, which half the people in the West fall for and/or also use as a weapon internally for their own agendas.
I'd challenge any country at all to try to do a better job at being a global hegemon in a scientifically advanced, fully connected planet with antagonistic religions and a whole host of nations and religious and ideological groups eternally trying to undermine and bring down that hegemon.
I'm just no longer buying any of the Chomsky, Klein and other related anti-US/West conspiracy theory stuff anymore.
The Israel situation is just another attempt at a well intentioned solution by the West that got undermined and destroyed by disgruntled, angry religious fanatics and other nations seeking to bring down the US/West, and ironically half the people of the West seem to be falling for the propaganda of these angry nations and groups.
And well said Patrick.
Well done @philosurphizing…
32 - 37 min mark is hard to ignore ;)
I’ve always been curious of the report from egypt that they warned israel days before the attack…
This, like a lot of info, can’t be absolutely verified.
- however, when this is considered with the descriptions of the gaza perimeter security infrastructure, it opens a fair can of worms…
As the lady states, if 25 yrs ago there were systems in place to alert any border activity/ incident/ breach - and the security was sensitive enough to be alerted by the presence of an animal like a cat or pig that has tripped sensors - then one can only imagine what particular types of sophisticated deterrents and alarms are in place nowadays.
Pretty sure bulldozers would be picked up fairly easily ;)
Other than the grotesque amount of weaponry that is supplied to israel from america, billions of dollars of the most advanced technology and cybersecurity aid has supposedly been installed and is operating. It’s wild to imagine an iranian cybersecurity hack affected systems (and wasn’t identified), or that fifteen total breaches were not noticed for hours and hours.
It is on one hand possibly a massive failure on the part of the idf and mossad if this was a successful ambush attack, but also fuels the speculation around questions of the legitimacy of the official narrative.
The fact the details of the original narrative were altered and continue to be modified in regard to the initial response (or lack of) creates more uncertainty…
Lots of unknowns to unpack still.
- and these questions don’t in any way take anything away from the completely unwarranted and despicable actions of hamas.
Patrick Zeihan:
"The only country aside from Israel that Gaza borders is Egypt. And people forget that the Egyptians control all the territory from 1949 to 1973 and hated it. I’d say that the only people that the Palestinians are more disliked by than, say, the Israelis are the Egyptians. And there’s absolutely no love lost. And it took Biden personally interceding to get the Egyptians to agree to allow aid into the southern crossings into Gaza."
Not so warm and cuddly close up it seems.
If we are to bring up well intended ‘solutions’ etc
- it is necessary to further question intentions in general…
…the UN security council deems israeli settlements in the occupied territories as illegal - and to cease - so what is their intent in first disregarding the ruling… but also ignoring it ?
- guessing this doesn’t fit under the banner of good intent.
If another country or state disobeyed such a thing and continued illegally doing something, I imagine there would be consequences / sanctions etc.
- can this behaviour be dismissed as well intended ? And why is this refusal to adhere to the ruling not policed ?
These are the details within the bigger picture that are being bypassed. This is only one glaring anomaly within the ‘rule based order’.
- one that is an obvious fuck you to officially accepting and also abiding by international law.
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