The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
Hiccups wrote:burleigh wrote:Hiccups wrote:lowinfo probably going into bat for Israel, as one of his "citizen journalist" heroes, a man/cretin that's been in the IDF and is a noted zionist, Avi Yemini, is over there atm, providing the most biased pro-Israel coverage imaginable.
Yet, you're watching. So maybe, just maybe you're enabling the man you dislike.
You still throw like a girl.Avi is a convicted woman beater, and you're trying to insult me by denigrating women. Looks like little fishfood has a misogynistic streak. What a shock.
LMAO. i don't follow Avi. I have made this very clear in many posts on swellnet.
Your throwing is getting worse.
udo wrote:
Geezus. hows the ending. Fuckkkkkk
Itamar Ben-Gvir the current minister for national security of Israel.
While Ben-Gvir’s old high-school classmates served in the Israel Defense Forces, he stayed at the yeshiva, absorbing extremist ideas. The Army had refused to conscript him. “There are only very few that we don’t recruit,” a former senior defense official told me. Why not Ben-Gvir? I asked. The official stared at me and said, “Give someone like that a weapon?”
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/02/27/itamar-ben-gvir-israels-mi...
https://iview.abc.net.au/video/NC2310H024S00
Foreign Correspondent - Before the war Israel.
More hatred per square inch than anywhere else on the planet.
stunet wrote:Because the world would be a better place if leaders only listened to Swellnet commenters, we've created a forum that makes it easy for them to gather our thoughts.
Today's shit talk is tomorrow's policy.
Well, we've already out-predicted the banks on interest rate policy, at least twice...
IDF initially claimed they targeted a Hamas cell at the hospital, When footage began emerging of the devastation they deleted tweets and statements and began saying it was a Hamas rocket gone wrong. They provided intelligence footage of a multiple rocket launch that shows one rocket going off course to substantiate this claim. A NY Times fact checker pointed out that the time stamp of the footage was 40min after the explosion at the hospital. All footage now deleted from those statements.
Given that Hamas store ordnance at hospitals, any hit could cause stockpiled ordnance to blow….causing more destruction and deaths than what a strike usually would.
Haha yes @mugofsunshine
I was sent footage of the initial reports including the idf admitting it hit a hamas stronghold that was at the hospital…
- then all the tweets and official proclamations disappeared.
- and the chosen narrative changed ;)
The propaganda arm is fast, and elusive… but not real ;)
Doesn’t matter how many ‘spokespeople’ try and distort the facts.
Evidence is manipulated, invented, and rarely reliable…
- once again… both sides lie, both sides kill, both sides blame each other.
It’s like a race to see who can sell the dodgy car before they realise we realise it doesn’t work ;)
Hamas are pricks for using the hospital if it is true.
The idea they’ll release all the israeli hostages if the bombing ceases is ambitious but maybe too little too late.
In the meantime… hasbara is in full force ;)
- like the beheaded babies (that one almost worked)
- now the ‘civilian’ hospital (jury still out)
Everyone gets captured by the stories.
Everyone gets reactionary, furious, emotionally invested ;)
After all, it works… remember that wmd story ? ;);)
One thing that doesn’t work, one thing that has never worked, is a ‘military’ solution. This conflict endures and snowballs mainly through military action. Military escalation, on either side, only fuels the fire. We know this.
- and yet off they both go, insisting some kind of military intervention will achieve something. Both should be condemned in equal measure.
And who actually knows ?
Who really knows what happened ?
We do know more civilians died.
And for what ?
For a story ?
- a reminder…
https://m.
It's very clear the Israel bombed the hospital..... Hamas no doubt was there hiding/storing weapons. This is just the beginning. Fuck war
Jelly Flater wrote:Haha yes @mugofsunshine
I was sent footage of the initial reports including the idf admitting it hit a hamas stronghold that was at the hospital…
- then all the tweets and official proclamations disappeared.
- and the chosen narrative changed ;)The propaganda arm is fast, and elusive… but not real ;)
Doesn’t matter how many ‘spokespeople’ try and distort the facts.
Evidence is manipulated, invented, and rarely reliable…- once again… both sides lie, both sides kill, both sides blame each other.
It’s like a race to see who can sell the dodgy car before they realise we realise it doesn’t work ;)Hamas are pricks for using the hospital if it is true.
The idea they’ll release all the israeli hostages if the bombing ceases is ambitious but maybe too little too late.In the meantime… hasbara is in full force ;)
- like the beheaded babies (that one almost worked)
- now the ‘civilian’ hospital (jury still out)Everyone gets captured by the stories.
Everyone gets reactionary, furious, emotionally invested ;)After all, it works… remember that wmd story ? ;);)
One thing that doesn’t work, one thing that has never worked, is a ‘military’ solution. This conflict endures and snowballs mainly through military action. Military escalation, on either side, only fuels the fire. We know this.
- and yet off they both go, insisting some kind of military intervention will achieve something. Both should be condemned in equal measure.And who actually knows ?
Who really knows what happened ?We do know more civilians died.
And for what ?
For a story ?- a reminder…
The idea they’ll release all the israeli hostages if the bombing ceases is ambitious but maybe too little too late. Wrong…again.
Hamas said they would release all foreign civilians then changed it to all civilians, because they know the world hates child killers (except those that condone killing kids in the name of the holy way).
They will not release military hostages or those Israeli citizens that they deem as military personnel, ie Israelis of an age that can do military service or could be called up to serve (prior to Hamas starting the whole shit show).
Haha…
Farkn hell dill boy ;)
Keep clutching at straws.
It’s a very fluid situation…
Maybe concentrate on the ‘who actually knows’ bit.
- who really knows what is happening…
A lot of options, ideas, proposals…
Could even say early stage negotiations ;)
But yeah… the road dill info bureau has the answers…
Whatever ‘they’ say or actually do may be very different.
- and really… you’ve got no idea ;)
Jelly Flater wrote:Haha…
Farkn hell dill boy ;)Keep clutching at straws.
It’s a very fluid situation…Maybe concentrate on the ‘who actually knows’ bit.
- who really knows what is happening…A lot of options, ideas, proposals…
Could even say early stage negotiations ;)But yeah… the road dill info bureau has the answers…
Whatever ‘they’ say or actually do may be very different.- and really… you’ve got no idea ;)
Best to keep to the facts. That’s all I’ve done as you post what you hear with zero fact checking.
Oh yeah Jelly, like your genius call yesterday for a hostage swap. As clueless as anyone can be based on what is happening.
Ummm… you’re either bored or just wilfully ignorant ;)
Have you seen the reports of the family members of the hostages who implored the israeli government and idf to consider a hostage swap ?
- that was their request numb nuts.
Are you inferring those poor people riddled with anxiety and fear for what is gonna happen to their loved ones as being clueless ?
Farkn showing your executive dill powers there.
I suggested the halting of further ILLEGAL settlements…
You exclaimed proudly that it’s time for ‘no mercy’ ! (genius call)
So… for a bloke who previously condemned ppl to a proposed murder charge for having covid and going to a cafe and fatally infecting ya mum…
- you’ve got little to no credibility ;)
Explain your ‘facts’ again… go on… pls do ;);)
How exactly are you going anywhere beyond ‘what you hear’ ?
Both sides lie, both sides kill, both sides blame each other.
- facts.
‘Best to keep to the facts’ ;)
https://m.
Jelly, it’s not possible to argue with stupid (road dill)
He will eventually knock you down to his level then beat you with year of experience of stupidity
Jelly Flater wrote:Ummm… you’re either bored or just wilfully ignorant ;)
Have you seen the reports of the family members of the hostages who implored the israeli government and idf to consider a hostage swap ?
- that was their request numb nuts.Are you inferring those poor people riddled with anxiety and fear for what is gonna happen to their loved ones as being clueless ?
Farkn showing your executive dill powers there.I suggested the halting of further ILLEGAL settlements…
You exclaimed proudly that it’s time for ‘no mercy’ ! (genius call)So… for a bloke who previously condemned ppl to a proposed murder charge for having covid and going to a cafe and fatally infecting ya mum…
- you’ve got little to no credibility ;)
Explain your ‘facts’ again… go on… pls do ;);)
How exactly are you going anywhere beyond ‘what you hear’ ?Both sides lie, both sides kill, both sides blame each other.
- facts.
Yesterday you definitely said a hostage swap. Your words.
You have to be naive or Jelly to think Hamas would negotiate a hostage swap in good faith. In a jihad military sense hostages are the only thing they have going for them. If they had no hostages they have nothing.
I replied to a question by flollo and suggested negotiating a hostage swap.
My words. Not my idea.
- so, just to make it clear… my ‘solution’ was about halting illegal jewish settlements in occupied territories.
My response to flollo about what israel should do about their hostages was the hostage swap - an idea already proposed by family members of the hostages… it’s actually an endorsement of their idea. I think it’s a valid request and a humane proposal… get it yet numbnuts ;);)
So, double down all you want. Try accuse others of being clueless… but remember your actual words - your idea was ummm :
- no mercy.
Now, have a look at the images of gaza. If you’re ok with the state of affairs then stick with no mercy and stfu. You offer nothing.
- facts.
Like I said, there are currently 10 wars being fought and except for putins circus they are all Islam jihad wars….
they hate it most when a country stands up to them and fights back….that’s not in their script ….your supposed to submit…and it’s why they hate little Israel….because they keep on fighting and will never submit like many nations cowardly already have.
Fact checking ;)
https://m.
Flopti…
You imbecile, little israel is an occupying force.
The oppressed are supposed to submit ;)
That’s the palestinians…
- how’s playing back to front upside down going for u ;);)
Still trying to pretend it’s only muslims waging war ? Denial is your soup of choice that’s for sure… sluuuuurp ;)
Lovely fantasies you entertain…
Spare a thought for your brethren ;)
https://m.
&t=111s&pp=ygUXQ2hyaXN0aWFucyBpbiBwYWxlc3RpbmU%3D I've found footage that allegedly shows the entirety of the hospital hit:
Full recording from @ajmubasher feed.
— Yousuf (@yousuf_tw) October 17, 2023
You can see outgoing rocket fire some distance away. The rocket is intercepted in the air, and breaks apart into shrapnel.
After this 2 explosions are seen: one smaller one, perhaps on the rocket launcher, and a big one on the hospital. pic.twitter.com/upR4Dnrvsq
As always you be the judge when it comes to the fog of war.
Jelly Flater wrote:I replied to a question by flollo and suggested negotiating a hostage swap.
My words. Not my idea.- so, just to make it clear… my ‘solution’ was about halting illegal jewish settlements in occupied territories.
My response to flollo about what israel should do about their hostages was the hostage swap - an idea already proposed by family members of the hostages… it’s actually an endorsement of their idea. I think it’s a valid request and a humane proposal… get it yet numbnuts ;);)
So, double down all you want. Try accuse others of being clueless… but remember your actual words - your idea was ummm :
- no mercy.
Now, have a look at the images of gaza. If you’re ok with the state of affairs then stick with no mercy and stfu. You offer nothing.
- facts.
“My words. Not my idea” I think it’s already clear you are incapable of having original ideas.
Thanks for confirming you are a copy and paste kinda guy.
burleigh wrote:Jelly, it’s not possible to argue with stupid (road dill)
He will eventually knock you down to his level then beat you with year of experience of stupidity
There you go Jelly…you have a buddy in burleigh. You 2 are similar.
Interesting that Jelly posts similar cartoon drawings of Jewish people that the nazis used….pretty much sums up his character.
And what do they occupy ??? A country that takes a few hours to drive through???
And borders that keep the bad guys out of their country???
But the Islamists don’t get to own it and they hate that.
Go get ‘em Israel, and do whatever it takes to get the Palestinians to fight Hamas themselves and get their own crappy run country in order.
On both sides where there is no guts ….there is no glory.
Oh dill…
Still at it ;)
Accusing others of being ‘incapable of original ideas’ ;);)
- whilst spouting ‘no mercy’ as an ‘idea’…
Cmon dill boy, you love that hole you’re digging ;)
You’ll either be in china soon or busting into a hamas stronghold…
Hypocrisy and idiocy wrapped up in genius calls of cluelessness.
- you and id could form the gumboot road dill coalition.
Flopti can be your info bureau chief of misinformation and bigotry ;)
- no guts, no glory and no mercy (no brains).
so funny big joe flyimg in on his white horse like he could negotiate anything...
last two times he was talking about war / in a war zone he got his good guys and bad guys mixed up or totally mixed up with an enemy that wasn't even there...
what could possibly go wrong?
I know it's largely symbolic... and there will people who don't need aides to change their diapers doing the real talking... but please please keep that man away from the microphone!
sypkan wrote:so funny big joe flyimg in on his white horse like he could negotiate anything...
last two times he was talking about war / in a war zone he got his good guys and bad guys mixed up or totally mixed up with an enemy that wasn't even there...
what could possibly go wrong?
I know it's largely symbolic... and there will people who don't need aides to change their diapers doing the real talking... but please please keep that man away from the microphone!
They need Trump flying in to really make it interesting.
pretty funny the arab leaders have snubbed him already
it's like no one respects the man...
anyway, credit where credit's due, he's putting himself in a very dangerous situation, and every two bit terrorist network in the region must be following flight tracker about now
dandandan wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Explosion hits hospital in Gaza.
Now lets be real.
Whats far more likely?
1. It was Israel that doesnt just fire rockets randomly and can pin point targets with jet fighters and have zero reason to hit a hospital, doing so only favours Hamas and muppets like Jelly who will go see who the bad guys are, the terrorist are the good guys.
.If you are saying Israel doesn't just fire rockets randomly, are you accepting that so far Israel has pin pointed and killed more than 3000 people, at least 750 of them children, wounded 12 800, blown up a UN school that was being used as evacuation shelter? Is that the kind of pin point accuracy you are saying they have? Not to mention that they have cut off food, water, and power to a point that the UN today say they fear people are dehydrating to death. Is it really that impossible to imagine, after declaring they will wipe Palestinians off the map and reduce Gaza to rubble, that they would also fire rockets at a hospital?
Im guessing you missed the Sam Harris post from the other day that everybody should read and everyone needs to understand before even commenting in this thread, so this wont be the last time i repost it.
The reality is most countries keep all military seperate from civilians, but Hamas do the complete opposite they purposely put all bases in the same buildings a civilians live or work even school's, the purposely shot rockets from right next to house, schools etc so that Israel targets these locations, so yes even if at times they give warnings so civilians can evacuate yes sadly some get killed
BTW. The water has been put back on apparently, but have you even thought about how or why a country can cut off the others water or electricity?
Gaza attacks Israel all the time yet it still provides them water and energy in normal times, they could and have every right to just say you see us as your enemy we aren't providing you anything (If you dont know Hamas is actually the Gaza government as well as military ) the deal on water and energy was only suppose to temporary but here we are almost 20 years latter
Rabbits68 wrote:Food for thought....
This is a transcript of a recorded podcast.
Sam Harris
The Sin of Moral EquivalenceI want to say a few things about recent events in Israel. I’m sure I will do future podcasts about this and speak with a wide range of relevant experts. But, for the moment, I would like to say something brief that stands a chance of being useful, as we watch the initial expressions of support for Israel begin to decay, as it wages war in Gaza and perhaps beyond.
As many of you know, I spent years talking about the clash, as I see it, between Western civilization and Islam. Specifically, I’ve spoken and written about the connection between the actual doctrines of Islam and jihadist violence. Of course, this violence has fallen out of the news in recent years, especially since the collapse of the Islamic State. Even I have stopped thinking much about it, but I’ve been under no illusion that the problem has gone away. Those of you who have been following my work for 20 years know that I’ve said everything I have to say on this topic, ad nauseam. And I’m sure I’ll periodically just repeat myself for the rest of my life—because eruptions of jihadist violence, and the attendant secular moral confusion about it, will be with us for generations.
However, I don’t want to rehash any of my criticism of Islam here. I’ll just briefly remind you of what I believe, which is that there is no possibility of living in peace with jihadists. So, whether we want to admit it or not, we are perpetually at war with them. And we must win a war of ideas with everyone, both within the Muslim world and outside it, who is confused about that—and there are legions of the confused. And there is no place on Earth where the truth about jihadism is more obvious or excruciating, and moral confusion about it more reprehensible, than Israel today.
But leaving all of that to one side, for the moment I’d like to make a very simple point, that really shouldn’t be at all controversial—because it doesn’t prejudge any of the questions that people might disagree about. You don’t have to agree with me about Islam, or about the role it plays in inspiring conflict. The point I’m making now says nothing about the causes of the recent violence in Israel—and yet it cuts through all the arguments and pseudo-arguments that attempt to paint some moral equivalence between Israel and its enemies, or to justify the actions of Hamas as though they were a response to Israeli provocations—to the growth of settlements, or the daily humiliation of living under occupation. Incidentally, there has been no occupation of Gaza since 2005, when Israel withdrew from the territory unilaterally, forcibly removing 9000 of its own citizens, and literally digging up Jewish graves. The Israelis have been out of Gaza for nearly 20 years. And yet they have been attacked from Gaza ever since.
But even a statement like that wades too far in controversy. I want you to step back… Whatever you think about the origins of this conflict, whatever you believe about the role that religion plays here (or doesn’t play), whatever you think about colonialism, or globalism, or any other ‘ism, whether you’re a fan of Noam Chomsky or Samuel Huntington, you should be able to acknowledge the following claims to be both descriptively true and ethically important.
At this moment in history, there are people and cultures that harbor very different attitudes about violence and the value of human life. There are people and cultures that rejoice, positively rejoice—dancing in the streets rejoicing—over the massacre of innocent civilians; conversely there are people and cultures that seek to avoid killing innocent civilians, and deeply regret it when they do—and they occasionally prosecute and imprison their own soldiers when they violate this modern norm of combat.
There are people and cultures who revel in the anguish of hostages and prisoners of war—who will parade them before cheering mobs, and often allow them to be assaulted, or raped, or even murdered. They will desecrate their bodies in public, and all of this carnage is a cause for jubilation. Conversely, there are people and cultures who find such barbarism revolting—and, again, would be inclined to prosecute anyone on their own side who took part in it.
In short, there are people and cultures who revel in war crimes—and who do not hide these crimes or their celebration of them but, rather, proudly broadcast their savagery for all the world to see. Conversely, there are people and cultures who have given us the concept of a war crime as a sacred prohibition—and as a safeguard in the ongoing project of maintaining the moral progress of civilization.
One point to concede, and this will absorb all the nuance and nonsense that is now percolating in the brains of many listeners: It is, of course, true that we in the West have been on the wrong side of these dichotomies in the past. Most Western armies, including Israel’s, have at one time or another been guilty of war crimes. And if you go back far enough, all of human conflict was just a litany of war crimes. And you don’t have to go back all that far, in fact, to find large pockets of Western culture that were morally indistinguishable from what we now see in much of the Muslim world. If you have any doubt about this, study the photos of white mobs celebrating the lynchings that occurred in the American South in the first half of the 20th century: where seemingly whole towns—thousands of men, women and children—turned out as though for a carnival to watch some young man or woman be tortured to death and then strung up on a tree or lamppost for all to see.
Seeing the pictures of these people in their Sunday best, having arranged themselves for a postcard photo under a dangling, and lacerated, and often partially cremated person, is one thing, but realize that these genteel people—who considered themselves good Christians—often took souvenirs of the body home to show their friends—teeth, ears, fingers, knee caps, internal organs—and sometimes displayed them in their places of business.
So I’m not claiming that there are permanent differences between groups of people. I’m talking about the power of ideas that happen to be ascendant at any given time and place. I’m talking about beliefs and whole worldviews that come into being in one culture and have yet to come into being in others. The point, of course, is that if we recognize the monstrosities of the past, we should recognize the monstrosities of the present, and acknowledge that at this moment in human history not every group has the same ethical norms governing its use of violence. For whatever reason. Perhaps religion has nothing to do with it.
Consider just one of these norms: Whenever an armed conflict breaks out, some groups will use human shields, and others will be deterred, to one degree or another, by their use. To be clear, I’m not talking about the taking of hostages from the opposing side for the purpose of using them as human shields. That is appalling, and it is now happening in Gaza, but it is separate crime. I’m talking about something far more inscrutable—it’s astounding, really, that it happens at all—I’m talking about people who will strategically put their own noncombatants, their own women and children, into the line of fire so that they can inflict further violence upon their enemies, knowing that their enemies have a more civilized moral code that will render them reluctant to shoot back, for fear of killing or maiming innocent noncombatants. If anywhere in this universe cynicism and nihilism can be found together in their most perfect forms, it is here.
Jihadists use their own people as human shields routinely. Hamas fires rockets from hospitals and mosques and schools and other sites calculated to create carnage if the Israelis return fire. There were cases in the war in Iraq where jihadists literally rested the barrels of their guns on the shoulders of children. They blew up crowds of their own children in order to kill US soldiers who were passing out candy to them. Conversely, the Israeli army routinely warns people to evacuate buildings before it bombs them.
Of course, during times of war, it common to dehumanize one’s enemy, to describe them as barbarous and evil. And it is natural for ethical and educated people to distrust such politically-charged language. But pay attention: I’m describing concrete behaviors—behaviors that occur on only one side of this conflict.
Just consider how absurd it would be to reverse the logic of human shields in this case: Imagine the Israelis using their own women and children as human shields against Hamas. Recognize how unthinkable this would be, not just for the Israelis to treat their own civilians in this way, but for them to expect that their enemies could be deterred by such a tactic, given who their enemies actually are.
Again, it is easy to lose sight of the moral distance here—which is strange. It’s like losing sight of the Grand Canyon when you are standing right on the edge of it. Take a moment to actually do the cognitive work: Imagine the Jews of Israel using their own women and children as human shields. And then imagine how Hamas, or Hezbollah, or al-Qaeda, or ISIS, or any other jihadist group would respond. The image you should now have in your mind is a masterpiece of moral surrealism. It is preposterous. It is a Monty Python sketch where all the Jews die.
Do you see what this asymmetry means? Can you see how deep it runs? Do you see what it tells you about the ethical difference between these two cultures?
There are not many bright lines that divide good and evil in our world, but this is one of them.
Of course, there is much more to talk about when considering the ethics of war and violence. And there’s much more to be confused about. For instance, as this war proceeds, many people will consider the deaths of noncombatants on the Palestinian side to be morally equivalent to the kids who were tortured and murdered at the peace concert by Hamas, or to the hostages who may yet be murdered and their murders broadcast on social media. But they’re not. There is a difference between collateral damage—which is, of course, a euphemism for innocent people killed in war—and the intentional massacre of civilians for the purpose of maximizing horror.
Simply the counting the number of dead bodies is not a way of judging the moral balance here. Intentions matter. It matters what kind of world people are attempting to build. If Israel wanted to perpetrate a genocide of the Palestinians, it could do that easily, tomorrow. But that isn’t what it wants. And the truth is the Jews of Israel would live in peace with their neighbors if their neighbors weren’t in thrall to genocidal fanatics.
In the West, we have advanced to a point where the killing of noncombatants, however unavoidable it becomes once wars start, is inadvertent and unwanted and regrettable and even scandalous. Yes, there are still war crimes. And I won’t be surprised if some Israelis commit war crimes in Gaza now. But, if they do, these will be exceptions that prove the rule—which is that Israel remains a lonely outpost of civilized ethics in the absolute moral wasteland that is the Middle East.
To deny that the government of Israel (with all of its flaws) is better than Hamas, to deny that Israeli culture (with all of its flaws) is better than Palestinian culture in its attitude toward violence, is to deny that moral progress itself is possible. If most Americans are better than their slaveholding ancestors, if most Germans today are better than the people who herded Jews into gas chambers, if the students protesting this war on your college campus—who are so conscientious that they lose sleep over crimes like “cultural appropriation” or using the wrong pronouns—if they are better than the racists and religious lunatics that inevitably lurk somewhere in their family trees—then we have to recognize that there is no moral equivalence now, between Israel and her enemies.
Fog of war?:
Islamic Jihad struck a Hospital in Gaza—the IDF did not.
— Israel Defense Forces (@IDF) October 18, 2023
Listen to the terrorists as they realize this themselves: pic.twitter.com/u7WyU8Rxwz
ABC interview of ASPI’s Dr Malcom Davis: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-18/palestinian-islamic-jihad-behind-...
sypkan wrote:pretty funny the arab leaders have snubbed him already
it's like no one respects the man...
anyway, credit where credit's due, he's putting himself in a very dangerous situation, and every two bit terrorist network in the region must be following flight tracker about now
Yeah im not a fan of Biden, but credit where credit is due it takes some balls for anyone to go there when at war but especially a president.
Scary to think what would happen in the extremely rare chance something happened though.
I personally cant fault Biden or Albo on how they have handed this so far and it seems that 60 Billion to Iran is frozen so thats good too.
Will be interesting to see if the leaders of the Muslim nations that condemn Israel for this strike carry that anger and condemnation over to Hamas if it was their cockup.
indo-dreaming wrote:dandandan wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Explosion hits hospital in Gaza.
Now lets be real.
Whats far more likely?
1. It was Israel that doesnt just fire rockets randomly and can pin point targets with jet fighters and have zero reason to hit a hospital, doing so only favours Hamas and muppets like Jelly who will go see who the bad guys are, the terrorist are the good guys.
.If you are saying Israel doesn't just fire rockets randomly, are you accepting that so far Israel has pin pointed and killed more than 3000 people, at least 750 of them children, wounded 12 800, blown up a UN school that was being used as evacuation shelter? Is that the kind of pin point accuracy you are saying they have? Not to mention that they have cut off food, water, and power to a point that the UN today say they fear people are dehydrating to death. Is it really that impossible to imagine, after declaring they will wipe Palestinians off the map and reduce Gaza to rubble, that they would also fire rockets at a hospital?
Im guessing you missed the Sam Harris post from the other day that everybody should read and everyone needs to understand before even commenting in this thread, so this wont be the last time i repost it.
The reality is most countries keep all military seperate from civilians, but Hamas do the complete opposite they purposely put all bases in the same buildings a civilians live or work even school's, the purposely shot rockets from right next to house, schools etc so that Israel targets these locations, so yes even if at times they give warnings so civilians can evacuate yes sadly some get killed
BTW. The water has been put back on apparently, but have you even thought about how or why a country can cut off the others water or electricity?
Gaza attacks Israel all the time yet it still provides them water and energy in normal times, they could and have every right to just say you see us as your enemy we aren't providing you anything (If you dont know Hamas is actually the Gaza government as well as military ) the deal on water and energy was only suppose to temporary but here we are almost 20 years latter
Rabbits68 wrote:Food for thought....
This is a transcript of a recorded podcast.
Sam Harris
The Sin of Moral EquivalenceI want to say a few things about recent events in Israel. I’m sure I will do future podcasts about this and speak with a wide range of relevant experts. But, for the moment, I would like to say something brief that stands a chance of being useful, as we watch the initial expressions of support for Israel begin to decay, as it wages war in Gaza and perhaps beyond.
As many of you know, I spent years talking about the clash, as I see it, between Western civilization and Islam. Specifically, I’ve spoken and written about the connection between the actual doctrines of Islam and jihadist violence. Of course, this violence has fallen out of the news in recent years, especially since the collapse of the Islamic State. Even I have stopped thinking much about it, but I’ve been under no illusion that the problem has gone away. Those of you who have been following my work for 20 years know that I’ve said everything I have to say on this topic, ad nauseam. And I’m sure I’ll periodically just repeat myself for the rest of my life—because eruptions of jihadist violence, and the attendant secular moral confusion about it, will be with us for generations.
However, I don’t want to rehash any of my criticism of Islam here. I’ll just briefly remind you of what I believe, which is that there is no possibility of living in peace with jihadists. So, whether we want to admit it or not, we are perpetually at war with them. And we must win a war of ideas with everyone, both within the Muslim world and outside it, who is confused about that—and there are legions of the confused. And there is no place on Earth where the truth about jihadism is more obvious or excruciating, and moral confusion about it more reprehensible, than Israel today.
But leaving all of that to one side, for the moment I’d like to make a very simple point, that really shouldn’t be at all controversial—because it doesn’t prejudge any of the questions that people might disagree about. You don’t have to agree with me about Islam, or about the role it plays in inspiring conflict. The point I’m making now says nothing about the causes of the recent violence in Israel—and yet it cuts through all the arguments and pseudo-arguments that attempt to paint some moral equivalence between Israel and its enemies, or to justify the actions of Hamas as though they were a response to Israeli provocations—to the growth of settlements, or the daily humiliation of living under occupation. Incidentally, there has been no occupation of Gaza since 2005, when Israel withdrew from the territory unilaterally, forcibly removing 9000 of its own citizens, and literally digging up Jewish graves. The Israelis have been out of Gaza for nearly 20 years. And yet they have been attacked from Gaza ever since.
But even a statement like that wades too far in controversy. I want you to step back… Whatever you think about the origins of this conflict, whatever you believe about the role that religion plays here (or doesn’t play), whatever you think about colonialism, or globalism, or any other ‘ism, whether you’re a fan of Noam Chomsky or Samuel Huntington, you should be able to acknowledge the following claims to be both descriptively true and ethically important.
At this moment in history, there are people and cultures that harbor very different attitudes about violence and the value of human life. There are people and cultures that rejoice, positively rejoice—dancing in the streets rejoicing—over the massacre of innocent civilians; conversely there are people and cultures that seek to avoid killing innocent civilians, and deeply regret it when they do—and they occasionally prosecute and imprison their own soldiers when they violate this modern norm of combat.
There are people and cultures who revel in the anguish of hostages and prisoners of war—who will parade them before cheering mobs, and often allow them to be assaulted, or raped, or even murdered. They will desecrate their bodies in public, and all of this carnage is a cause for jubilation. Conversely, there are people and cultures who find such barbarism revolting—and, again, would be inclined to prosecute anyone on their own side who took part in it.
In short, there are people and cultures who revel in war crimes—and who do not hide these crimes or their celebration of them but, rather, proudly broadcast their savagery for all the world to see. Conversely, there are people and cultures who have given us the concept of a war crime as a sacred prohibition—and as a safeguard in the ongoing project of maintaining the moral progress of civilization.
One point to concede, and this will absorb all the nuance and nonsense that is now percolating in the brains of many listeners: It is, of course, true that we in the West have been on the wrong side of these dichotomies in the past. Most Western armies, including Israel’s, have at one time or another been guilty of war crimes. And if you go back far enough, all of human conflict was just a litany of war crimes. And you don’t have to go back all that far, in fact, to find large pockets of Western culture that were morally indistinguishable from what we now see in much of the Muslim world. If you have any doubt about this, study the photos of white mobs celebrating the lynchings that occurred in the American South in the first half of the 20th century: where seemingly whole towns—thousands of men, women and children—turned out as though for a carnival to watch some young man or woman be tortured to death and then strung up on a tree or lamppost for all to see.
Seeing the pictures of these people in their Sunday best, having arranged themselves for a postcard photo under a dangling, and lacerated, and often partially cremated person, is one thing, but realize that these genteel people—who considered themselves good Christians—often took souvenirs of the body home to show their friends—teeth, ears, fingers, knee caps, internal organs—and sometimes displayed them in their places of business.
So I’m not claiming that there are permanent differences between groups of people. I’m talking about the power of ideas that happen to be ascendant at any given time and place. I’m talking about beliefs and whole worldviews that come into being in one culture and have yet to come into being in others. The point, of course, is that if we recognize the monstrosities of the past, we should recognize the monstrosities of the present, and acknowledge that at this moment in human history not every group has the same ethical norms governing its use of violence. For whatever reason. Perhaps religion has nothing to do with it.
Consider just one of these norms: Whenever an armed conflict breaks out, some groups will use human shields, and others will be deterred, to one degree or another, by their use. To be clear, I’m not talking about the taking of hostages from the opposing side for the purpose of using them as human shields. That is appalling, and it is now happening in Gaza, but it is separate crime. I’m talking about something far more inscrutable—it’s astounding, really, that it happens at all—I’m talking about people who will strategically put their own noncombatants, their own women and children, into the line of fire so that they can inflict further violence upon their enemies, knowing that their enemies have a more civilized moral code that will render them reluctant to shoot back, for fear of killing or maiming innocent noncombatants. If anywhere in this universe cynicism and nihilism can be found together in their most perfect forms, it is here.
Jihadists use their own people as human shields routinely. Hamas fires rockets from hospitals and mosques and schools and other sites calculated to create carnage if the Israelis return fire. There were cases in the war in Iraq where jihadists literally rested the barrels of their guns on the shoulders of children. They blew up crowds of their own children in order to kill US soldiers who were passing out candy to them. Conversely, the Israeli army routinely warns people to evacuate buildings before it bombs them.
Of course, during times of war, it common to dehumanize one’s enemy, to describe them as barbarous and evil. And it is natural for ethical and educated people to distrust such politically-charged language. But pay attention: I’m describing concrete behaviors—behaviors that occur on only one side of this conflict.
Just consider how absurd it would be to reverse the logic of human shields in this case: Imagine the Israelis using their own women and children as human shields against Hamas. Recognize how unthinkable this would be, not just for the Israelis to treat their own civilians in this way, but for them to expect that their enemies could be deterred by such a tactic, given who their enemies actually are.
Again, it is easy to lose sight of the moral distance here—which is strange. It’s like losing sight of the Grand Canyon when you are standing right on the edge of it. Take a moment to actually do the cognitive work: Imagine the Jews of Israel using their own women and children as human shields. And then imagine how Hamas, or Hezbollah, or al-Qaeda, or ISIS, or any other jihadist group would respond. The image you should now have in your mind is a masterpiece of moral surrealism. It is preposterous. It is a Monty Python sketch where all the Jews die.
Do you see what this asymmetry means? Can you see how deep it runs? Do you see what it tells you about the ethical difference between these two cultures?
There are not many bright lines that divide good and evil in our world, but this is one of them.
Of course, there is much more to talk about when considering the ethics of war and violence. And there’s much more to be confused about. For instance, as this war proceeds, many people will consider the deaths of noncombatants on the Palestinian side to be morally equivalent to the kids who were tortured and murdered at the peace concert by Hamas, or to the hostages who may yet be murdered and their murders broadcast on social media. But they’re not. There is a difference between collateral damage—which is, of course, a euphemism for innocent people killed in war—and the intentional massacre of civilians for the purpose of maximizing horror.
Simply the counting the number of dead bodies is not a way of judging the moral balance here. Intentions matter. It matters what kind of world people are attempting to build. If Israel wanted to perpetrate a genocide of the Palestinians, it could do that easily, tomorrow. But that isn’t what it wants. And the truth is the Jews of Israel would live in peace with their neighbors if their neighbors weren’t in thrall to genocidal fanatics.
In the West, we have advanced to a point where the killing of noncombatants, however unavoidable it becomes once wars start, is inadvertent and unwanted and regrettable and even scandalous. Yes, there are still war crimes. And I won’t be surprised if some Israelis commit war crimes in Gaza now. But, if they do, these will be exceptions that prove the rule—which is that Israel remains a lonely outpost of civilized ethics in the absolute moral wasteland that is the Middle East.
To deny that the government of Israel (with all of its flaws) is better than Hamas, to deny that Israeli culture (with all of its flaws) is better than Palestinian culture in its attitude toward violence, is to deny that moral progress itself is possible. If most Americans are better than their slaveholding ancestors, if most Germans today are better than the people who herded Jews into gas chambers, if the students protesting this war on your college campus—who are so conscientious that they lose sleep over crimes like “cultural appropriation” or using the wrong pronouns—if they are better than the racists and religious lunatics that inevitably lurk somewhere in their family trees—then we have to recognize that there is no moral equivalence now, between Israel and her enemies.
Dandandan how dare you question Indo!
Indo the arrogance in your replies is astounding.
@ Goofy
Mate all you have been doing the last few weeks is following me around throwing in sly remark's, heres an idea how about you either start commenting on the topic being discussed in threads or just fark off.
Here’s an idea you free-loading, tight arse, know it all cnut, pay for a subscription to the place you spend half your waking life at and maybe, just maybe I’d take what you say on board.
I’m off to work, enjoy your day.
burleigh wrote:It's very clear the Israel bombed the hospital..... Hamas no doubt was there hiding/storing weapons. This is just the beginning. Fuck war
Well it now seems this post of knowledge and fact didn't travel very well.
Is this the “The Current Thing” thread?
This is the 'get your popcorn' thread M.A.
Michael Adam wrote:Is this the “The Current Thing” thread?
Yes but as per the title it's also the problem solving thread. I'm sure it'll all be over quick smart and we can go on to other things.
Roadkill wrote:burleigh wrote:It's very clear the Israel bombed the hospital..... Hamas no doubt was there hiding/storing weapons. This is just the beginning. Fuck war
Well it now seems this post of knowledge and fact didn't travel very well.
Oh dear. The dill has been watching abc news again this morning
Gotta love the University Of Social Media. All those people trained as infectious diseases experts two years ago have now been able to retrain themselves as Middle East experts.
The Facebook algorithms would be working flat stick at the moment trying to work which side of the horror story it wants to educate and entertain you with.
stunet wrote:Michael Adam wrote:Is this the “The Current Thing” thread?
Yes but as per the title it's all the problem solving thread. I'm sure it'll all be over quick smart and we can go on to other things.
Ya reckon?
Biden has it sorted. He pulled out the big triple D
"Don't Don't Don't" to the bad guys the other night.
Or maybe the teleprompter got stuck?
Hamas’s whole hospital blast narrative is now being questioned:
🧵Now that day has broken, and we're getting better evidence, I'm willing to share some PRELIMINARY thoughts on the al-Ahli hospital explosion. The photos of the scene are, to me, not consistent with an airstrike and are not consistent with claims that 500+ people were killed. pic.twitter.com/dzA3Bx71hr
— Nathan Ruser (@Nrg8000) October 18, 2023
https://www.news.com.au/world/middle-east/us-president-joe-biden-visits-...
Hamas put a death toll out 15 mins after the explosion. And most media outlets ran with it. Hamas said Israel bombed the hospital and most media outlets ran with it.
Unfortunately , it doesn't matter who did it .
Hamas is using the people as shields .
Would they be willing to destroy a tiny bit of their shield to Save the rest ?
In a heart beat .
garyg1412 wrote:Gotta love the University Of Social Media. All those people trained as infectious diseases experts two years ago have now been able to retrain themselves as Middle East experts.
The Facebook algorithms would be working flat stick at the moment trying to work which side of the horror story it wants to educate and entertain you with.
Well we were basically right about Covid and the yes23 ref, so i'll take this as a compliment.
Roadkill wrote:Hamas put a death toll out 15 mins after the explosion. And most media outlets ran with it. Hamas said Israel bombed the hospital and most media outlets ran with it.
media outlets run it. The Dill swallows it
Because the world would be a better place if leaders only listened to Swellnet commenters, we've created a forum that makes it easy for them to gather our thoughts.
Today's shit talk is tomorrow's policy.