The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Sameaswas reckons he was oblivious to using a racial slur.
What an absolute crock of shit.
Youre a disgrace. Hang your head in shame you racist slime.
@samaswas , so who and what , were they talking about at the rally ? What do I reckon about the voice ? Well considering it has no real power , its an advisory body and the details are decided by parliament if the yes vote gets up , then I believe you have nothing to fear .
burleigh wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Reform wrote:burleigh wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/CxgUygzMivS/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Are you ok Burleigh? I mean Really?? So dark man.. Look the sun is shining, Aboriginal people have suffered long enough! What do you reckon?
Its time to turn this whole concept around.
You and I can be a part of the change.
Get with it mate! You're not on the right path! Neither is Indo, just poor form! Or are you getting sponsored? Or what? I just don't understand you guys.Another day and just more insults from the Yes camp, and then you have gall to say we have poor form, and act all morally superior while supporting dividing our country on race.
Exactly Indo. Who's really dividing the country. It's not the people voting no that's for sure.
Soooo... tell me again how the voice divides the nation based on race? I don't think I've read yet how this would happen...
remembering that there's only one race, the human race...and that race was socially constructed for very specific reasons (superiority, hierarchy, domination, colonialism).
indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Reform wrote:burleigh wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/CxgUygzMivS/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Are you ok Burleigh? I mean Really?? So dark man.. Look the sun is shining, Aboriginal people have suffered long enough! What do you reckon?
Its time to turn this whole concept around.
You and I can be a part of the change.
Get with it mate! You're not on the right path! Neither is Indo, just poor form! Or are you getting sponsored? Or what? I just don't understand you guys.Another day and just more insults from the Yes camp, and then you have gall to say we have poor form, and act all morally superior while supporting dividing our country on race.
@lowinfo deflection champ bullshitter
See there we go again....some just cant help themselves.
RU ok @lowinfo? Deflection not working anymore? Far right politics 101, accuse your opponent of exactly what your dirty grubby little game is, using the ‘race’ card at every opportunity ….. us No camp squeaky clean you Yes camp full of racists: games up @lowinfo
Well there’s the herald sun then there’s the truth, the truth can be found in the comments . https://x.com/theheraldsun/status/1705431811659321662?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe.... Haven’t seen rukshan’s video yet no doubt he will have the truth .
The Age tells a different story https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/anti-voice-crowds-dominated-b...
GuySmiley wrote:The Age tells a different story https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/anti-voice-crowds-dominated-b...
"“I believe Australians on the 14th of October are going to stand up for what they believe in,” Dutton told Liberal Party members in Melbourne. “They’re going to support the position of the Liberal Party because they know that we’ve thought about it."
#duddo #noidea #thoughtaboutitlol
^^^ nothing like listening to a couple of old white blokes whinging in their echo chamber
^^^ wow, well that was revolting. clinging gargoyle-like to God, then the Queen, then the Flag, then a Date, then the Institutions... let it go ffs. nothing is either/or, it's just a shared identity and complex history we can all be proud of. no worries. evolve. it's all good.
Basesix….Ridiculous they claim we’ve lost patriotism. More patriotic in my mind. Leaving behind all that these old twats and their ilk stand for that’s still suckled to England’s teat.
Tots, seeds. Love this country and how we are still evolving, and leading the world in some areas. No iron curtain, qing closed door, fearfully frigid standing still and flaccidly hoping for us! What we will be in 50 years should be stunning. I feel we are strong and adaptable, and in no way will lose what we are or have, if we celebrate and embrace it all. Especially our Indigenous history.
I stood in a town in Japan once looking at a traditional functioning temple, next door was a shiny shop I didn't understand, with an inflatable pink panther on the roof. No-one thought it was weird at all.. the town was proud of all of it. I thought 'what a mature country'.
Yep, they’re a cpl of knobheads that’s for sure…
- there is hope tho… not everyone suckled to the teat are void of sensitivity ;)
https://m.
https://www.sheppnews.com.au/news/briggs-plans-now-forever-concert-bring...
Briggs, Baker Boy, Paul Kelly, Hilltop Hoods, Barkaa, Mo'Jo, Emma Donovan. Co-hosted by Sam Pang
Tickets$21.50 Kids under 12 free Shepparton Showgrounds
AEC : 20 indigenous Languages Voice Booklet deadline...
Deadline was 14 days before Monday 25th Sept Indigenous Voting begins.
11th Sept Deadline = 4 Language Versions of Minimum 1999 Reffo 20 Indigenous languages
24th Sept (13 days after deadline) = AEC hit 13 languages...not that important to First nation is it...
https://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/Translated_information/#download
Unless AEC work Sundays just 13 Main language Groups of 250 Indigenous languages of 800 dialects.
Consider 100,000 staff + $450m budget & couldn't match basic 1999 First Nation coverage.
One must question just how much money does it take to recite Voice Question in all 800 Oz dialects...
Wonder no more...Just an introductory AEC Voice booklet to every one of Oz / Migrant 834 dialects
Just the start up price mind you...let's not aim for the Black Emu...
$27,692,307,992.00 for just 1 limited edition printed Question in all dialects. (How can we be sure!)
Because it was the priority mission for AEC Voice...with record Aboriginal Enrollment boast...
To at least match previous lower enrolled Reffo Language quota...massive First Nation kick in the guts!
That be why they're still chippin' away at it...Go A team!
Sure, can do that...at current rate...AEC require an extra 54,000 staff to hit 20 languages for Mon' Poll.
Albeit 14 days too late...crew can see it's important to AEC crew also...can't knock that!
Watch this space as they hone in on their 20 target...
$27,692,307,992.00 Question is how to convey a message to all of Oz on time for a reasonable cost.
If any know then Please run for Parliament then after 60 years tbb has a reason to enroll to Vote!
Telcos / Media charge us 4x more to halve our communication to now twice as slow as 20 years ago.
Can't imagine anyone noticing let alone protest that this so called Gap has grown to canyon width.
We could pick up the song lines with message sticks to get the band back together...count tbb in.
sameaswas wrote:overthefalls wrote:southernraw wrote:Seems like Sam Newmans calls fell flat. And thats 90000 plus Collingwood bloody supporters of all things.
If theyre cheering the welcome to country, particularly after Newman's deranged comments, you'd have to think the no bombarded is just the very vocal minority.hahaha that photo on the right is the full on wtc ceremony and there were boos in the crowd at that game, so next week there is no full on ceremony just a speach by a clothed fnp of anglo descent, no warpaint, danceing or smokeing ceremony and the whole crowd roared in approval, excellent thats the way to do it.
last nights game was the same and the crowd approved it.
sam newman's opinion was about the smokeing ceremony with all the b.s.; fair comment, abrupt, rude, inflamoratry, offensive(to some) but a lot of ppl agree with him.
Been off the grid for a week + surfing. Can’t believe the above reply. Boofheads.
GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Reform wrote:burleigh wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/CxgUygzMivS/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Are you ok Burleigh? I mean Really?? So dark man.. Look the sun is shining, Aboriginal people have suffered long enough! What do you reckon?
Its time to turn this whole concept around.
You and I can be a part of the change.
Get with it mate! You're not on the right path! Neither is Indo, just poor form! Or are you getting sponsored? Or what? I just don't understand you guys.Another day and just more insults from the Yes camp, and then you have gall to say we have poor form, and act all morally superior while supporting dividing our country on race.
@lowinfo deflection champ bullshitter
See there we go again....some just cant help themselves.
RU ok @lowinfo? Deflection not working anymore? Far right politics 101, accuse your opponent of exactly what your dirty grubby little game is, using the ‘race’ card at every opportunity ….. us No camp squeaky clean you Yes camp full of racists: games up @lowinfo
Mate you are literally wanting people to been seen differently in the constitution and have different rights and say based on ancestry, its pretty much the definition or racism, by voting yes technically you become a racist because you knowingly support racism.
While yes there might be racist No voters, not all no voters are racist
As for i think it was Reforms views
"Get with it mate! You're not on the right path! Neither is Indo, just poor form! Or are you getting sponsored?"
Its such a rich thing to say, again from people who are supporting this divide, and if polls are right most of Australia disagree about what the right path is.
Admittedly i think the polls could change a bit though, as the money and advertising is so one sided, it really is a battle of David and Goliath, but if David wins then the real winner is democracy, because it would be sad if democracy could be influenced so much by money.
BTW. Your view point might be in the majority here, but knowing you are 50+ your view nationally is way in the minority as low as 27-28%
Another valid reason to vote Yes.....
https://www.facebook.com/100044177721896/posts/pfbid02usJGdT7pQWhnLFe8t7...
Fact check: Nine key lies told about the Voice to Parliament https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/indigenous-affairs/2023/09/23/f... I see your hilarious video and raise you a sat paper
Supafreak wrote:Fact check: Nine key lies told about the Voice to Parliament https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/indigenous-affairs/2023/09/23/f... I see your hilarious video and raise you a sat paper
No way on earth im giving my email addy to those wackos
indo-dreaming wrote:Supafreak wrote:Fact check: Nine key lies told about the Voice to Parliament https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/indigenous-affairs/2023/09/23/f... I see your hilarious video and raise you a sat paper
No way on earth im giving my email addy to those wackos
You really aren’t the sharpest tool in the shed are you indo ? Just type in [email protected] or any other fake email you can come up with . Sheesh
Indo says, “by voting yes technically you become a racist because you knowingly support racism.”
In the words of Inigo Montoya, “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
https://humanrights.gov.au/our-work/race-discrimination/what-racism
Lowinfo calling anyone who votes yes as technically racist....you're really opening yourself up for no holds barred future belittling with no end in sight......just so you are aware of the why....dipshit.
“ …. by voting yes technically you become a racist because you knowingly support racism.”
More juvenile deflection attempted by @lowinfo
Odious
Spud and his crew seem confused about what the voice is . https://x.com/fyes23/status/1705553278258622689?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzXe7hKRZb...
@ Supa
Ha ha fair call, id forgotten about that tactic.
Claim: The Australian Electoral Commission will improperly confer advantage to the “Yes” campaign by accepting ticks on ballot papers, but discarding those marked with a cross.
Its a real thing, it was an issue last referendum even had a court thing around it and will be an issue next referendum and every other referendum, you would expect one day it will be rectified.
Because to have a truly fair demarcate process you need and equal number of ways to vote yes or no
Although the whole thing could very very easily be avoided by just having two boxes.
Currently in a very close vote it could cause very big issues.
Claim: The Uluru Statement from the Heart is not one page but secretly 26 pages.
Im calling BS on this, Yes the 26 pages have been online previously, on the USFTH website but they are clearly intentionally buried at the end of the report, which makes no sense as they are officially part of the one document that includes the one page intro (all doc 14)
The minutes of meeting doc 1 to 13 ive seen no evidence were always online, they were released as FOI request
Claims: The Voice would weigh in on everything from interest rates to defence spending. And, the Voice would mean every government decision could be taken to the High Court.
They use the word "would" but the flaw is more the fact it can
This is reality and a big flaw, and yes the voice could take decision to high court.
Never heard anyone say every decision will though.
The voice would obviously be very strategic in how it plays and possibly use different tactics to get what it really wants
Claim: The referendum will actually contain two questions.
Okay ive seen people say this on social media, yeah this one is BS, it should be two questions though
On the two very different aspects of voice and constitution recognition but it wont be, because the voice would never get up they need the constitution recognition aspect to try to drag the voice through.
Claim: The Voice will simply fatten bureaucrats.
Probably but i think there is more important concerns than this.
Claim: The Voice will “get rid of the parliament that’s there now and will end up taking over”.
First time ive seen this, dont agree but it definitely has the possibility to cause issues.
Claim: “Aboriginal people will be running this country, and all the white people here will be paying to live here
Ha ha not sure where they got this one from? maybe some random comment on facebook.
Anyway i guess your family and my family would get a 50% discount. :P
Obviously not going to happen but yeah the official USFTH documents do make mention of payments even possibly percentage of GDP even mentioned in full 26 pages
This aspect IMHO is probably the main reason why Albo and the Yes camp were so keen for people not to read it, which probably ensured more did than otherwise would have.
Claim: There is insufficient detail about the Voice.
This is 100% true, very important aspects will be decided after not before.
indo-dreaming wrote:@ Supa
Ha ha fair call, id forgotten about that tactic.
Claim: The Australian Electoral Commission will improperly confer advantage to the “Yes” campaign by accepting ticks on ballot papers, but discarding those marked with a cross.
Its a real thing, it was an issue last referendum even had a court thing around it and will be an issue next referendum and every other referendum, you would expect one day it will be rectified.
Because to have a truly fair demarcate process you need and equal number of ways to vote yes or no
Although the whole thing could very very easily be avoided by just having two boxes.
Currently in a very close vote it could cause very big issues.
Claim: The Uluru Statement from the Heart is not one page but secretly 26 pages.
Im calling BS on this, Yes the 26 pages have been online previously, on the USFTH website but they are clearly intentionally buried at the end of the report, which makes no sense as they are officially part of the one document that includes the one page intro (all doc 14)
The minutes of meeting doc 1 to 13 ive seen no evidence were always online, they were released as FOI request
Claims: The Voice would weigh in on everything from interest rates to defence spending. And, the Voice would mean every government decision could be taken to the High Court.
They use the word "would" but the flaw is more the fact it can
This is reality and a big flaw, and yes the voice could take decision to high court.
Never heard anyone say every decision will though.
The voice would obviously be very strategic in how it plays and possibly use different tactics to get what it really wants
Claim: The referendum will actually contain two questions.
Okay ive seen people say this on social media, yeah this one is BS, it should be two questions though
On the two very different aspects of voice and constitution recognition but it wont be, because the voice would never get up they need the constitution recognition aspect to try to drag the voice through.
Claim: The Voice will simply fatten bureaucrats.
Probably but i think there is more important concerns than this.
Claim: The Voice will “get rid of the parliament that’s there now and will end up taking over”.
First time ive seen this, dont agree but it definitely has the possibility to cause issues.
Claim: “Aboriginal people will be running this country, and all the white people here will be paying to live here
Ha ha not sure where they got this one from? maybe some random comment on facebook.
Anyway i guess your family and family would get a 50% discount. :P
Obviously not going to happen but yeah the official USFTH documents do make mention of payments even possibly percentage of GDP even mentioned in full 26 pages
This aspect IMHO is probably the main reason why Albo and the Yes camp were so keen for people not to read it, which probably ensured more did than otherwise would have.
Claim: There is insufficient detail about the Voice.
This is 100% true, very important aspects will be decided after not before.
Well I guess you have debunked that article indo , well done .
indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Reform wrote:burleigh wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/CxgUygzMivS/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Are you ok Burleigh? I mean Really?? So dark man.. Look the sun is shining, Aboriginal people have suffered long enough! What do you reckon?
Its time to turn this whole concept around.
You and I can be a part of the change.
Get with it mate! You're not on the right path! Neither is Indo, just poor form! Or are you getting sponsored? Or what? I just don't understand you guys.Another day and just more insults from the Yes camp, and then you have gall to say we have poor form, and act all morally superior while supporting dividing our country on race.
@lowinfo deflection champ bullshitter
See there we go again....some just cant help themselves.
RU ok @lowinfo? Deflection not working anymore? Far right politics 101, accuse your opponent of exactly what your dirty grubby little game is, using the ‘race’ card at every opportunity ….. us No camp squeaky clean you Yes camp full of racists: games up @lowinfo
Mate you are literally wanting people to been seen differently in the constitution and have different rights and say based on ancestry, its pretty much the definition or racism, by voting yes technically you become a racist because you knowingly support racism.
While yes there might be racist No voters, not all no voters are racist
As for i think it was Reforms views
"Get with it mate! You're not on the right path! Neither is Indo, just poor form! Or are you getting sponsored?"
Its such a rich thing to say, again from people who are supporting this divide, and if polls are right most of Australia disagree about what the right path is.
Admittedly i think the polls could change a bit though, as the money and advertising is so one sided, it really is a battle of David and Goliath, but if David wins then the real winner is democracy, because it would be sad if democracy could be influenced so much by money.
BTW. Your view point might be in the majority here, but knowing you are 50+ your view nationally is way in the minority as low as 27-28%
STILL NOT explaining how the voice will divide a nation?? Yr reading too much into it lowinfo
overthefalls wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:overthefalls wrote:AlfredWallace wrote:waveman wrote:https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/indigenous/auditorgeneral-urged-...
Waveman. Hi. Whats your motive here ? AW
Punching down
The article is totally relevant to the conversation.
Saying its punching down to post it is purely just deflection, and just bully type tactics to silence those that you dont agree with.
In what way is it relevant, Indo? Is one of your arguments that Aboriginal organisations cannot be trusted because of the potential for corruption? I thought that stuff occurred right across the political spectrum, regardless of race. As for your accusation of bullying, that’s laughable and misdirected. Waveman’s motive in posting a link to that article was clearly to discredit organisations run by Aboriginal people. Does one corrupt Aboriginal organisation make them all untrustworthy? You’re clutching at straws there, I reckon.
Just a one off you think? Not really…
https://nit.com.au/12-10-2022/4078/corrupt-land-council-officials-plough...
https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/indigenous-charity-head-s-trail-of-...
Would you say Linda Burney was also punching down when just last month she was “very disappointed and concerned” re. NIAA audit findings?
https://nit.com.au/29-08-2023/7329/burney-concerned-over-audit-shortfall...
All the governance and compliance these bodies are meant to be subject to doesn’t seem to count for very much.
@lowinfo. It must be a hollow feeling being an anonymous online attention seeker.
Pity the fool
Nearly everyone in the No camp seems worried that there will be corruption in whoever is appointed if the voice gets up . In their design they have layed out transparency and accountability but this doesn’t satisfy the No voices . Do they hold the same concerns for the government of the day and did they speak up during the 9 years of LNP government when they were in power ? Remember the past and current various aboriginal agencies are government appointed officials , the voice wants representation from those that are elected by the community. If you cant see the difference and how easily corruption can come about when favour is shown by someone the government picks in return for whatever. JP is a prime example of being appointed to a position that wasn’t picked by the FNP community .
overthefalls wrote:“Translation of your post, i dont want people to see this(even paywalled) because its not good for the yes vote.”
No, most people will see it for what it is: a pathetic gotcha attempt.
Here’s Josephine Cashman summing it up - “Aboriginal affairs: state-sanctioned corruption”
https://onevoiceaustralia.com.au/blog/f/state-sanctioned-failure-corrupt...
“Constitutional recognition is an exercise in futility. Unlike the resounding result achieved in
1967 that allowed native Australians to be counted in the Census, and to have laws made on
their behalf, there is no urgency or importance attached to the present undertaking. At best it
appears to be mere semantics, at worst a terrible waste of energy, resources and
misdirection from solving the real issues plaguing the most disadvantaged ‘First People’.
Programs have failed to solve issues that are both destroying lives and, more unforgivably,
taking them, in the most disadvantaged Aboriginal communities and families across
Australia.”
Supafreak wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Supafreak wrote:Fact check: Nine key lies told about the Voice to Parliament https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/indigenous-affairs/2023/09/23/f... I see your hilarious video and raise you a sat paper
No way on earth im giving my email addy to those wackos
You really aren’t the sharpest tool in the shed are you indo ? Just type in [email protected] or any other fake email you can come up with . Sheesh
Supa going deep into the vortex with these d grade articles. Next you’ll find a Rebel news article to back your claims. I share them for fun as I know you blokes love em, you share these being serious.
Had this just sent through to me.
. A long read but something to consider, especially if basing your NO vote on racial inequality.
It's on FB so will copy the text for those not on the evil zuckerberg train...will post the link below for those like me that can't escape.
Van Badham
22h ·
Let me tell you a story about two Australian families, and a house. One of the families is mine.
Get comfortable, it’s a twisty tale - and I’ll tell it as truthfully as I know it, as all the people I talk about in my own story are dead and, alas, can’t interrupt to correct me.
My mother’s side of the family originates from County Kerry, and the west coast of Ireland. They were Catholic, they were poor, they spoke Irish, not English - and because of centuries of British colonialism that had at one point stripped Irish Catholics of the right to own land, they had no property.
With so few prospects in the old country, my mother’s grandfather sought opportunity in a new one; he emigrated to Australia in 1908.
He got work as a sheep-shearer, which was hard and dirty and brutal. His young wife travelled with him, and my grandmother and her four siblings were all born in different places as the family travelled with him from sheep station to sheep station.
It was an unsustainable life, and the family of seven eventually moved back to Sydney, where there was an established Irish community in the inner city suburbs of Surry Hills, Newtown and Erskineville. These places are fancy now, but they used to be poor and rough. As far as I know, my grandmother and all her siblings were out of school and all working by the age of 14.
My grandmother found work as a retail assistant in a department store in Newtown, which is where she met my grandfather - another Irish Catholic boy from the community (and reputedly great fun at a party) who was also a retail assistant there.
The Depression hit, and retail work was suddenly unstable. My grandmother’s brothers went “on the wallaby” (although my family never used that term), going out to the Riverina to live as cheaply as possible off the land and take whatever work was on offer. My grandfather did whatever he had to do and took whatever work he could.
Australia hadn’t quite recovered from the Depression when World War II broke out. My grandfather deployed in the infantry and was gone for years. He never talked to the family about what he saw in active service, but late in life he did one day make a pile in the backyard of his old uniform, medals and war stuff, set it on fire and burn it to ash, which says much.
But what my grandfather and family did receive from his war service was a life-changing act of government policy.
The “War Service Homes” scheme provided veterans with the opportunity of low-cost government home loans with low insurance costs - which enabled my scrappy little working-class Catholic family to finally - finally - own property.
The house they built was barely more than a fibro shack on the grey sand of what was then an outer suburb of Sydney, but it transformed our fortunes. The whole family worked to pay off that loan - my mother left school at 15 - but the permanence of that house meant there was now always a roof over people’s heads whether they were in work or out of it, a place for them to go if their relationships went bad and they needed to get out of them, somewhere to rest if they got sick. Somewhere to be cared for and die when they got old.
All of this took financial strains off our family and enabled other opportunities. As my cousins and I got older, we pursued further education. One of my cousins moved in with our Nanna and studied, from that house, for her university degree.
With the help of that single housing asset, our family went from immigrant, itinerant shearers to University educated in three generations.
Many immigrant Australian families have similar stories of opportunity and transformation…
… But many Aboriginal Australian families don’t.
I told the story of the little fibro house and its role in our family’s class transition on a panel a few years ago. One of the other panellists was a Murri woman from Queensland.
Her family were also working class, and had also weathered the Depression at the rough end. Her grandfather had also served in WW2, and was a veteran like my own, bearing the same, unspoken witness to those unimaginable events.
But her grandfather wasn’t offered a loan for a “War Service Home” - because he was Aboriginal Australian, and Aboriginal Australian veterans were excluded from the scheme. And from the 1940s on - while my family were slowly building some intergenerational wealth with a cheap house subsidised by the government - her family couldn’t even get access to a commercial bank loan. Many families were not even able to open bank accounts, merely because they were Aboriginal Australians.
Remember - the referendum to confer Australian citizenship rights on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians may have passed in 1967… but it took until 1975 for the Racial Discrimination Act to make discrimination illegal.
It’s mind-boggling: in 1974, the year I was born, racial discrimination was still LEGAL in Australia.
So, consider - before you even take in the dispossession of Aboriginal Australians from their land, the stealing of children, the racism, violence and abuse - at the key point in the economic and social trajectory of two Australian families, one single policy decision to discriminate against her family and benefit mine structuralised an ongoing inequality.
Yep, this woman and I sit on the same panels in a society that finally acknowledges our equality through the law… but her family has not had equal opportunities to mine. Her parents died far younger than mine did. Her entire community lives in the legacy of chaos and trauma and hardship provoked by those unequal conditions. She has had a harder fight than I did to get to the same place. And Aboriginal Australian children born today still have that harder fight ahead of them because those old, structural inequalities still - still - have not been redressed.
Material reality doesn’t go away just because our social attitudes change.
No one should be obliged to live life on a higher difficulty setting because they are born an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander Australian. It is morally nonsensical and it actively weakens us as a nation. We should ALL be thriving.
It’s been really hard this week seeing the amount of “no” comments from people who insist that they are opposed to the “Voice” claiming they believe in “equality”.
Politely, if you decide to ignore the existence of unequal experiences, unequal opportunities and unequal material realities in front of you, you are helping to perpetuate all of them.
All that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians are asking for is the capacity to “make representations” to government, so that we as a whole Australia can have a meaningful conversation about how our shared trajectories as a people can finally be made fair.
That is what the Voice to parliament is, and that is why I am voting for it.
If you believe that Australia should be a nation of opportunity for all its citizens, I hope that you do, too.
Vote YES
https://www.facebook.com/ThatVanBadham
Post is the first from the top.
burleigh wrote:Supafreak wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Supafreak wrote:Fact check: Nine key lies told about the Voice to Parliament https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/indigenous-affairs/2023/09/23/f... I see your hilarious video and raise you a sat paper
No way on earth im giving my email addy to those wackos
You really aren’t the sharpest tool in the shed are you indo ? Just type in [email protected] or any other fake email you can come up with . Sheesh
Supa going deep into the vortex with these d grade articles. Next you’ll find a Rebel news article to back your claims. I share them for fun as I know you blokes love em, you share these being serious.
Sorry it’s not up to your high standards Burleigh, I’ll scan instagram and facebook and see what I can find for ya . It was actually posted to counter indo’s comical YouTube video .
southernraw wrote:Had this just sent through to me.
. A long read but something to consider, especially if basing your NO vote on racial inequality.
It's on FB so will copy the text for those not on the evil zuckerberg train...will post the link below for those like me that can't escape.
Van Badham
22h ·
Let me tell you a story about two Australian families, and a house. One of the families is mine.
Get comfortable, it’s a twisty tale - and I’ll tell it as truthfully as I know it, as all the people I talk about in my own story are dead and, alas, can’t interrupt to correct me.
My mother’s side of the family originates from County Kerry, and the west coast of Ireland. They were Catholic, they were poor, they spoke Irish, not English - and because of centuries of British colonialism that had at one point stripped Irish Catholics of the right to own land, they had no property.
With so few prospects in the old country, my mother’s grandfather sought opportunity in a new one; he emigrated to Australia in 1908.
He got work as a sheep-shearer, which was hard and dirty and brutal. His young wife travelled with him, and my grandmother and her four siblings were all born in different places as the family travelled with him from sheep station to sheep station.
It was an unsustainable life, and the family of seven eventually moved back to Sydney, where there was an established Irish community in the inner city suburbs of Surry Hills, Newtown and Erskineville. These places are fancy now, but they used to be poor and rough. As far as I know, my grandmother and all her siblings were out of school and all working by the age of 14.
My grandmother found work as a retail assistant in a department store in Newtown, which is where she met my grandfather - another Irish Catholic boy from the community (and reputedly great fun at a party) who was also a retail assistant there.
The Depression hit, and retail work was suddenly unstable. My grandmother’s brothers went “on the wallaby” (although my family never used that term), going out to the Riverina to live as cheaply as possible off the land and take whatever work was on offer. My grandfather did whatever he had to do and took whatever work he could.
Australia hadn’t quite recovered from the Depression when World War II broke out. My grandfather deployed in the infantry and was gone for years. He never talked to the family about what he saw in active service, but late in life he did one day make a pile in the backyard of his old uniform, medals and war stuff, set it on fire and burn it to ash, which says much.
But what my grandfather and family did receive from his war service was a life-changing act of government policy.
The “War Service Homes” scheme provided veterans with the opportunity of low-cost government home loans with low insurance costs - which enabled my scrappy little working-class Catholic family to finally - finally - own property.
The house they built was barely more than a fibro shack on the grey sand of what was then an outer suburb of Sydney, but it transformed our fortunes. The whole family worked to pay off that loan - my mother left school at 15 - but the permanence of that house meant there was now always a roof over people’s heads whether they were in work or out of it, a place for them to go if their relationships went bad and they needed to get out of them, somewhere to rest if they got sick. Somewhere to be cared for and die when they got old.
All of this took financial strains off our family and enabled other opportunities. As my cousins and I got older, we pursued further education. One of my cousins moved in with our Nanna and studied, from that house, for her university degree.
With the help of that single housing asset, our family went from immigrant, itinerant shearers to University educated in three generations.
Many immigrant Australian families have similar stories of opportunity and transformation…
… But many Aboriginal Australian families don’t.
I told the story of the little fibro house and its role in our family’s class transition on a panel a few years ago. One of the other panellists was a Murri woman from Queensland.
Her family were also working class, and had also weathered the Depression at the rough end. Her grandfather had also served in WW2, and was a veteran like my own, bearing the same, unspoken witness to those unimaginable events.
But her grandfather wasn’t offered a loan for a “War Service Home” - because he was Aboriginal Australian, and Aboriginal Australian veterans were excluded from the scheme. And from the 1940s on - while my family were slowly building some intergenerational wealth with a cheap house subsidised by the government - her family couldn’t even get access to a commercial bank loan. Many families were not even able to open bank accounts, merely because they were Aboriginal Australians.
Remember - the referendum to confer Australian citizenship rights on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians may have passed in 1967… but it took until 1975 for the Racial Discrimination Act to make discrimination illegal.
It’s mind-boggling: in 1974, the year I was born, racial discrimination was still LEGAL in Australia.
So, consider - before you even take in the dispossession of Aboriginal Australians from their land, the stealing of children, the racism, violence and abuse - at the key point in the economic and social trajectory of two Australian families, one single policy decision to discriminate against her family and benefit mine structuralised an ongoing inequality.
Yep, this woman and I sit on the same panels in a society that finally acknowledges our equality through the law… but her family has not had equal opportunities to mine. Her parents died far younger than mine did. Her entire community lives in the legacy of chaos and trauma and hardship provoked by those unequal conditions. She has had a harder fight than I did to get to the same place. And Aboriginal Australian children born today still have that harder fight ahead of them because those old, structural inequalities still - still - have not been redressed.
Material reality doesn’t go away just because our social attitudes change.
No one should be obliged to live life on a higher difficulty setting because they are born an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander Australian. It is morally nonsensical and it actively weakens us as a nation. We should ALL be thriving.
It’s been really hard this week seeing the amount of “no” comments from people who insist that they are opposed to the “Voice” claiming they believe in “equality”.
Politely, if you decide to ignore the existence of unequal experiences, unequal opportunities and unequal material realities in front of you, you are helping to perpetuate all of them.
All that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians are asking for is the capacity to “make representations” to government, so that we as a whole Australia can have a meaningful conversation about how our shared trajectories as a people can finally be made fair.
That is what the Voice to parliament is, and that is why I am voting for it.
If you believe that Australia should be a nation of opportunity for all its citizens, I hope that you do, too.
Vote YES
https://www.facebook.com/ThatVanBadham
Post is the first from the top.
Yay lets look back 50+ years to the wrongs of the past to justify creating wrongs and inequities today.
Only a Guardian writer could justify such a mindset.
Heres an idea how about forgetting race and treat people based on need instead.
southernraw wrote:@lowinfo. It must be a hollow feeling being an anonymous online attention seeker.
Pity the fool
Most people here are anonymous but you know who i am, many people here do i dont try to hide it like some do(not you) Ive pretty much said who i am without actually putting my name here.
There is nothing said here i wouldn't put my name too, these are my views and belief's and i stand by them, however not everything i say today might be something i always hold, ive changed my views and mind on things over the years, but i doubt i could ever on an idea like this.
BTW. Just because im vocal in sharing my view doesn't mean im seeking attention, i just feel strongly on the issue like you or others do.
This issue has an end date so im willing to go hard on it, not that i expect or aim to change anyone's mind, but i still thinks it good to have the views i support represented here.
Fark wrong txt
Supafreak wrote:Fark wrong txt
Ha ha go pick her up :D
Just got back from the beach myself cracker of a day.
waveman wrote:overthefalls wrote:“Translation of your post, i dont want people to see this(even paywalled) because its not good for the yes vote.”
No, most people will see it for what it is: a pathetic gotcha attempt.
Here’s Josephine Cashman summing it up - “Aboriginal affairs: state-sanctioned corruption”
https://onevoiceaustralia.com.au/blog/f/state-sanctioned-failure-corrupt...
Josephine Cashman?! What a grubby track record she’s got: disputing Bruce Pascoe’s claims to Aboriginality and accusing him of profiting from it; getting Dutton to refer the matter to the AFP (who found no crime had been committed); getting Andrew Bolt to publish a letter written by an Aboriginal elder that backs her accusation; getting sacked by Minister for Indigenous Affairs, Ken Wyatt, after he discovered the letter was fraudulent; joining Pauline Hanson’s One Nation; and now pushing the narrative that Aboriginal organisations cannot be trusted with money. What next?
indo-dreaming wrote:Supafreak wrote:Fark wrong txt
Ha ha go pick her up :D
Just got back from the beach myself cracker of a day.
Raining up here , seeing the black cockatoo’s last week brought some rain relief, not much but better than nothing .
indo-dreaming wrote:southernraw wrote:@lowinfo. It must be a hollow feeling being an anonymous online attention seeker.
Pity the foolMost people here are anonymous but you know who i am, many people here do i dont try to hide it like some do(not you) Ive pretty much said who i am without actually putting my name here.
There is nothing said here i wouldn't put my name too, these are my views and belief's and i stand by them, however not everything i say today might be something i always hold, ive changed my views and mind on things over the years, but i doubt i could ever on an idea like this.
BTW. Just because im vocal in sharing my view doesn't mean im seeking attention, i just feel strongly on the issue like you or others do.
This issue has an end date so im willing to go hard on it, not that i expect or aim to change anyone's mind, but i still thinks it good to have the views i support represented here.
Can you believe i've actually run out of insults for you!? The well has run dry.
Seems like this is your happy place, so go your hardest.
I just feel for any young indigenous surfer that happens to stumble across this thread and your pages of dribble that ultimately puts them back in the box you believe they belong in.
Enjoy your little platform lowinfo. It's not a thread i'm willing to put my name alongside while you continually drown out any reasonable conversation with your, buffoonery. There ya go. One last insult for you.
harrycoopr wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:GuySmiley wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Reform wrote:burleigh wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/CxgUygzMivS/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
Are you ok Burleigh? I mean Really?? So dark man.. Look the sun is shining, Aboriginal people have suffered long enough! What do you reckon?
Its time to turn this whole concept around.
You and I can be a part of the change.
Get with it mate! You're not on the right path! Neither is Indo, just poor form! Or are you getting sponsored? Or what? I just don't understand you guys.Another day and just more insults from the Yes camp, and then you have gall to say we have poor form, and act all morally superior while supporting dividing our country on race.
@lowinfo deflection champ bullshitter
See there we go again....some just cant help themselves.
RU ok @lowinfo? Deflection not working anymore? Far right politics 101, accuse your opponent of exactly what your dirty grubby little game is, using the ‘race’ card at every opportunity ….. us No camp squeaky clean you Yes camp full of racists: games up @lowinfo
Mate you are literally wanting people to been seen differently in the constitution and have different rights and say based on ancestry, its pretty much the definition or racism, by voting yes technically you become a racist because you knowingly support racism.
While yes there might be racist No voters, not all no voters are racist
As for i think it was Reforms views
"Get with it mate! You're not on the right path! Neither is Indo, just poor form! Or are you getting sponsored?"
Its such a rich thing to say, again from people who are supporting this divide, and if polls are right most of Australia disagree about what the right path is.
Admittedly i think the polls could change a bit though, as the money and advertising is so one sided, it really is a battle of David and Goliath, but if David wins then the real winner is democracy, because it would be sad if democracy could be influenced so much by money.
BTW. Your view point might be in the majority here, but knowing you are 50+ your view nationally is way in the minority as low as 27-28%
STILL NOT explaining how the voice will divide a nation?? Yr reading too much into it lowinfo
STILL NOT...
The Voice divides the nation into two groups based on race/ethnicity/ancestry/indigeneity (whatever words or terms one wants to dress it up and parade it around in).
It is wrong to do this because Australia is multicultural and diverse, comprised of peoples from many different backgrounds, all of equal worth and value, and all with equal freedom and rights.
The Voice is also racist and discriminatory by legally enshrining in the constitution privileged or elevated political rights to one particular racial/ethnic/ancestral/indigenous group. It doesn’t matter which group is being given the privileged rights - it’s still racism and discrimination.
It’s wrong to do this because a basic tenet of our society and way of life is equality in freedoms and rights, particularly political participation, which every Australian already has. FNPs can already vote like the rest of us. They are also equally free to run for parliament either within political parties or as independents, set up lobby groups, or even set up whole political parties.
The Voice is a charade.
In doing the above, it goes against the last few hundred years of political, legal, philosophical, sociological, etc, thought, progress and development. To continue this progress, we should be focused on removing any remaining institutional privilege and discrimination, not creating it.
.
great post SR, reminding us it is not just about today's perceived social attitudes.
As for people who don't think the Constitution is designed for change; deny that we are still racially divided; don't think FNP deserve to make structured recommendations that affect them (giving a more direct voice to grassroots work and smaller nations); don't think FNP should have a go at getting rid of system-rorting and corruption that has plagued the past, or have a go at delivering some long-term strategies (without controlling funding, just recommending to parliament) in what will be the most scrutinised advisory-body in our history, I simply don't know what to say any more.
If jumping at ghosts/what-if shadows, and hiding in silos that believe in principles-not-people, and documents that have been used to punish Aboriginal people for being Aboriginal for generations, is your thing... I guess vote NO. The world will move on without us, and we can cling to some deluded egalitarian utopian dream, that is far-and-away from being a reality yet.
gsco wrote:The Voice divides the nation into two groups based on race/ethnicity/ancestry/indigeneity (whatever words or terms one wants to dress it up and parade it around in).
It is wrong to do this because Australia is multicultural and diverse, comprised of peoples from many different backgrounds, all of equal worth and value, and all with equal freedom and rights.
The Voice is also racist and discriminatory by legally enshrining in the constitution privileged or elevated political rights to one particular racial/ethnic/ancestral/indigenous group. It doesn’t matter which group is being given the privileged rights - it’s still racism and discrimination.
It’s wrong to do this because a basic tenet of our society and way of life is equality in freedoms and rights, particularly political participation, which every Australian already has. FNPs can already vote like the rest of us. They are also equally free to run for parliament either within political parties or as independents, set up lobby groups, or even set up whole political parties.
The Voice is a charade.
In doing the above, it goes against the last few hundred years of political, legal, philosophical, sociological, etc, thought, progress and development. To continue this progress, we should be focused on removing any remaining institutional privilege and discrimination, not creating it.
Your argument assumes that there is a level playing field.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28