All Things Religion Thread

seeds wrote:

He doesn’t think for himself anymore RK. He can’t answer from a personal level.

The perfect christian…just the way they love them in the church.

seeds wrote:

He doesn’t think for himself anymore RK. He can’t answer from a personal level.

The most difficult questions such as in my post above are never answered on a personal basis.
You can almost sense the "oh shit" moment when they come across them and then the relief that they can sidestep neatly by quoting mumbo jumbo that obfuscates or resorting to the mysterious ways statement.

Yes that’s it Frog. I like that. The “oh shit” moments. The moments rational thought might start to bubble up from where it has suppressed.

frog wrote:

seeds wrote:

He doesn’t think for himself anymore RK. He can’t answer from a personal level.

The most difficult questions such as in my post above are never answered on a personal basis.
You can almost sense the "oh shit" moment when they come across them and then the relief that they can sidestep neatly by quoting mumbo jumbo that obfuscates or resorting to the mysterious ways statement.

100% agree frog.

The problem with answering personally is that once written down or spoken out loud Christians actually see how stupid and/or bigoted and/or sexist and/or looney tunes they actually are.

Optimist wrote:

Roadkill…you can’t have multiple truths…there can be only one and you have to seek it if you want to find it, And see where it leads you.
Blind boy….Sahih Al Bukhari 5134….. from Islam’s own highly regarded historical records.
He married her at 6 years old and she was considered pubescent enough at 9 for sex. She was never able to have children for obvious reasons. He was 53 years old
…and no, I have no interest in causing trouble but the truth helps to understand people like ISIS, Taliban,and Islamic child brides globally including Australia etc etc and these are just following their prophet to the letter….and peace??…don’t accuse me of not seeking peace with my fellow man, that’s the core of Christianity ….but you won’t achieve it by lying to yourself, you have to face reality and call out evil.

Christian ministers of various denominations have been fucking kids and covering it up right up to the present day. Organised Peodophile rings. Under the protection of various churches, and you want to be a part of that organisation. Personally I’d rather join a bikie gang and sell meth.
To each their own.

Im hedging my bets in afterlife. Im worshiping the god of abraham, all the hindu gods, all the pagan gods, the great juju under the sea and any others im not aware of. I only work three days a week so can spend a lot of time in all the churches.

Once you find an absolute belief in something, anything is possible- https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/conversations/megan-phelps-roper-l...

Roadkill]
brutus wrote:

[quote=Roadkill

wrote:

Brutus you never answer a simple question previously.Is homosexuality normal? Are gay marriages good?

I’m asking you? I don’t care what the bible says.

I Do care!

seeds wrote:

He doesn’t think for himself anymore RK. He can’t answer from a personal level.

there is no personal level.........that's why you can't understand the law is the law!

GuySmiley wrote:

Brutus, much respect - your recent comments on that other topic reflects a good deal of wisdom.

Christians and Muslims may believe in one god based on the words in their devotional books but I would imagine the vast majority of followers of both religions humbly engage in their practice without the need to preach to/convert non believers in a such way - your god wrong mine right.

We aren’t going to agree but I think this “one true” belief thing has caused so much ungodly behaviour and conflict, why can’t religions focus on what’s common?

I agree with you about the ungodly behaviour and conflict , which is man failing .......imagine having to love your enemy , give to others , treat your neighbour as you would have them treat you, look after others..........in other words it's not about the individuals wants and desires , we just screw it up constantly.....but we keep trying to become better through our words and actions!

frog wrote:

seeds wrote:

He doesn’t think for himself anymore RK. He can’t answer from a personal level.

The most difficult questions such as in my post above are never answered on a personal basis.
You can almost sense the "oh shit" moment when they come across them and then the relief that they can sidestep neatly by quoting mumbo jumbo that obfuscates or resorting to the mysterious ways statement.

hahaha , not at all , that's how you see it...do you obey the law of the country , or follow the rule of law?
As Christians we follow the law..........it's so evident you want to troll me into saying ...homosexuality is bad as is gay marriage.........it's easy for me to say ...homosexuality is abnormal as is gay marriage......
So what do you believe in spiritually seed?

Imagine is an excellent word.

Imagine how beautiful and culturally / spiritually diverse the world would be today, rich in the daily use of full indigenous languages and practices had christian missionaries had not travelled to the new world to spread the word of their one true god. This christian based missionary practice continues still today in the 3rd world.

That was RK asking you those questions Brutus. Which you still didn’t answer.
I stated earlier I’m somewhere between agnostic and atheist.

Don’t waste your energy on them Brutus…Matthew 7:6

brutus, I have no problem with religions having beliefs contrary to modern values. The issue occurs when attempts are made to impose those on society as a whole.

GuySmiley wrote:

Imagine is an excellent word.

Imagine how beautiful and culturally / spiritually diverse the world would be today, rich in the daily use of full indigenous languages and practices had christian missionaries had not travelled to the new world to spread the word of their one true god. This christian based missionary practice continues still today in the 3rd world.

An explorer followed some missionaries up hiking to the highlands of New Guinea. One had a backpack of bibles. It rained non stop. When he reached some very isolated tribe way up in a hidden valley who could neither read write or speak English, he proudly opened his backpack. The natives crowded around wondering what marvels these ghost men had to show them.

The rain and endless jolting in the backpack had turned the bibles into mushy brown sludge.

Poetic moment. God had a hand in that I think.

But the missionary took no notice and began a process of scaring the tribe into submission with a hand drawn sketch of the devil below and a bearded man above.
After a few weeks of this deeply spiritual scary stuff and attempts at garbled hym singing in the rain the novelty wore off for the tribe. The fear of the devil picture also faded.

Interestingly, they were more interested in the devil picture than the bearded old man drawing. The missionary was annoyed that they always wanted to know more about him and asked where he lived. Maybe they could visit?

They resumed a semblance of normal life and mostly avoided the missionary man. His Sunday hymns in the rain were only attended by a few to get treats - good old boiled lollies probably.

But a thousand years of culture and general harmony in the tribe was now beginning to erode.

They had been "saved". Praise be...

The Living God allows all understandings of itself. Just as we guide our children not to hurt their siblings and pet friends, but to be gentle, the same applies to how it's best to treat some of the Living God's adult children who are yet to remember/wake up/understand. There is only one thing, Life- The Living God, so love it, treat all parts of it kindly, including yourself and allow it to express it's diversity whilst alway remembering it's unity. Heaven is the awareness of this unity that loves all unconditionally. The physical individual experience is a tool, nothing more. Yes, it appears separate, yes it dies, but it is only one small part of who you really are. It's awesome to have the experience of being a drop, but please remember you really are the ocean.

Hi Frog,
Very busy at the moment between work & looking after the midget so apologies that I probably won't be able to get further drawn into this discussion, but a quick defence of the below (I'm sure we argued about this on the earlier pages of this forum too...)
"Optimist, so how do the long dead aborigines, aztecs, Eskimos, cannibals, etc. avoid eternity of hell fire and damnation if the entry ticket to heaven is professing faith in Jesus? God might know about them but do they get a free pass? If so why and on what basis?"
1. The new testament affirms that salvation is possible for those who could never have heard of Jesus - Hebrews uses several old testament figures who lived thousands of years before Jesus as an example (Abraham, Moses etc). Melchizadek is another interesting example (Job also), being a figure outside of Judaism.
2. Romans ch 1 speaks explicitly about the gentile world (again, people who had no knowledge of Jesus) being under judgement because of their rejection of God as revealed in nature. "They did not glorify him as God or show gratitude". Being written in general terms, this doesn't seem to preclude that individuals/groups that did recognise some hazy idea of a creator god and respond with thanks & would therefore be "saved".

So, doesn't seem too long a bow to draw to say that eternal life is accessible to those who have never heard of Jesus. Rather than simply "professing faith in Jesus" the entry ticket in more general terms seems to be "recognising and responding to god as he has revealed himself at that time and in that place" - which for our particular time and place means "professing faith in Jesus". Otherwise the christian would have to deny the salvation of any old testament figures which seems indefensible.

"the entry ticket in more general terms seems to be "recognising and responding to god as he has revealed himself at that time and in that place" - which for our particular time and place means "professing faith in Jesus"

So those who do are exposed to christian beliefs and specifically reject them are doomed? If so, what about all the children damaged by abusive clergy who end up loathing christianity? Why not just get with the global program and say live a good life and it's all cool. Isn't that the ecumenical message?

BB your last sentence is what it's about I reckon. I'm not religious at all, there's too much contradiction and hypocrisy and corruption and too many bad people involved in religions for my liking. Plus I don't believe in flying spaghetti monsters haha.
IF there is an afterlife, IF some part of our consciousness does carry on when we die, that's where the part about being a 'good person' comes in. If you've done bad things in life, it will stay with your conscience after you die. You have to live with that for eternity. If you've been a good person, you'll spend eternity at peace with yourself. No religion involved.

Prepare yourself BB. Pops is a worthy opponent.

BB, "live a good life and it's all cool"; nah; the message is that you simply can't live a perfectly good life, but god offers forgiveness & eternity despite that.

On kids damaged by clergy, that is a really hard one, and heartbreaking. Difficult to discuss too given the triggering nature of the topic.
Some thoughts that may or may not be helpful... to reject the institutions of christianity/a tainted perspective of christianity is not neccesarily to reject god. If it is possible for a given person to be saved, God will bring about the circumstances necessary for it to happen. And justice will ultimately be served.

Thanks Bonza, but nah I'm just an amateur in this stuff, and I struggle with these questions as much as the next bloke.

BB, I'm going to block swellnet on my browser for the rest of the day; I'm in danger of getting sucked into the discussion & missing my deadlines this week. I'll try to read any other q's later this evening.

Always a good day when we get your perspective on things Dave

Thanks Guy. Trust you are happy and healthy and being blessed with some good surfs or good experiences whatever they may be.

gragagan wrote:

BB your last sentence is what it's about I reckon. I'm not religious at all, there's too much contradiction and hypocrisy and corruption and too many bad people involved in religions for my liking. Plus I don't believe in flying spaghetti monsters haha.
IF there is an afterlife, IF some part of our consciousness does carry on when we die, that's where the part about being a 'good person' comes in. If you've done bad things in life, it will stay with your conscience after you die. You have to live with that for eternity. If you've been a good person, you'll spend eternity at peace with yourself. No religion involved.

Who gets to decide what is bad? One persons bad could be another persons normal. What and whose moral code is applied?

Well Pops had a go at answering a couple of questions on the entry ticket to heaven - nice to see.

"Being written in general terms, this doesn't seem to preclude that individuals/groups that did recognise some hazy idea of a creator god and respond with thanks & would therefore be "saved"."

Some might be saved. Phewww. But sounds like a pretty thin thread to dangle a possible future for tens of millions who were a bit too hazy or not thankful in the right way with an eternity of hell as imagined by one God expert after reading biblical descriptions as:

"This can't be happening!" you scream. Your nostrils are filling with the awful stench of burning souls. Your face ignites from the heat. Flames are now blazing from your eyes, nostrils, ears, mouth — every opening in your body, flames are roaring out. Your body is sizzling and crackling from the flames.
Your body is now madly thrashing and convulsing from the horrible pain. "Why don't I die?", you scream. You begin weeping and gnashing your teeth with the millions. "When will this pain stop?" But you know it will never stop. . ."

Crikey, bit rough for those millions of poor eskimos, aborigines, Egyptians and cave men who sort of got the concept a bit wrong way back before Jesus arrived and then later before the missionaries reached them with a bible they couldn't read.

Oh well, not to worry only another few eternities of pain, weeping and teeth nashing left for the poor souls.

Debating entry to heaven…is about as stupid and irrational as debating turning water into wine, virgin birth and coming back from the dead, the stench of burning souls etc etc.

worship me or burn in hell forever,even if you never heard about me. have a nice day love God.

Hi Frog,
I think we differ on a couple of key points that mean we're doomed to talk past each other.
First, it seems you pressuppose that God either doesn't know what is required (if anything) for a given person to accept him, doesn't care, or isn't able to bring it about. Or you think that for most people nothing will do it? ("Some might be saved").
I'd go a bit stronger and say that anyone who could possibly be "saved" has been/will be - God knows what is required and is able & willing to bring it about (all that flows from the nature of God). What proportion of people that is I can't pretend to know; I suspect that this world is such that a maximal feasible number of people will be saved; there will be people who are not, but whose existence is necessary in some way for other(s) to be.
Is your objection that salvation is not universal, or that it is not widespread? (I've gathered the latter, apologies if I've misunderstood).
Second: all the fire and brimstone stuff. Most of that comes from passages that are either part of non-literal genres (eg Jewish apocalyptic literature) or figurative language laden parables. This is a topic that christians do take different views on; I'm not convinced that they are to be taken literally, but figuratively describe what an existence in the absence of god is like. On that reading, god gives people what they want - those who want an existence without god receive just that (which we call "hell"). My take is that if anyone who winds up there changes there mind, the door is still open so to speak; but Jesus predicts that no-one will do so.

As an aside, something I neglected to say earlier but should mention; despite what I've said about "salvation" being accessible to those without any knowledge of Jesus, I think it is still effective (for want of a better word) because of Jesus. Justice must be discharged; Jesus offers himself as a proxy to that end.

Time to give the baby a bath.

blindboy wrote:

brutus, I have no problem with religions having beliefs contrary to modern values. The issue occurs when attempts are made to impose those on society as a whole.

BB , I know you like to read and not scared of a bit of philosophy ...society as you know it came from the bible....the lives we lead today could not have happened without the Bible.......

The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization
The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization
Look inside
Understand where we came from. Whether you're an avid student of the Bible or a skeptic of its relevance, The Book That Made Your World will transform your perception of its influence on virtually ever facet of Western civilization. Indian philosopher Vishal Mangalwadi reveals the personal motivation that fueled his own study of the Bible and systematically illustrates how its precepts became the framework for societal structure throughout the last millennium. From politics and science, to academia and technology, the Bible's sacred copy became the key that unlocked the Western mind. Through Mangalwadi's wide-ranging and fascinating investigation, you'll discover: What triggered the West's passion for scientific, medical, and technological advancement How the biblical notion of human dignity informs the West's social structure and how it intersects with other worldviews How the Bible created a fertile ground for women to find social and economic empowerment How the Bible has uniquely equipped the West to cultivate compassion, human rights, prosperity, and strong families The role of the Bible in the transformation of education How the modern literary notion of a hero has been shaped by the Bible's archetypal protagonist Journey with Mangalwadi as he examines the origins of a civilization's greatness and the misguided beliefs that threaten to unravel its progress. Learn how the Bible transformed the social, political, and religious institutions that have sustained Western culture for the past millennium, and discover how secular corruption endangers the stability and …future of us all.

Check out his credentials, an Indian Philosopher.....what do ya think?

Pops, my comments are just pointing out some of the many strange concepts swept under the carpet of belief that make the whole thing seem odd if you ponder them.

They reflect a view that the whole concept of heaven, hell, punishment and worshipping a god supposedly obsessed by whether he gets proper levels of adulation and obsessed by sin is just weird.

It paints him as petty, jealous and vindictive.

The religious construct built up just reeks of a transference of how humans on earth saw kings and how human leaders (priests) worked out how to control small and large groups by ideas rather than spears or swords all the time.

An almighty God sacrificing his son as the best solution he could come up with - is that just not weird and straight out of paganism if you step back and think about it?

I am not searching for answers - more like a building inspector pointing out crumbling foundations, rising damp, the leaking roof, poor design and hidden termite damage in a tarted up house for sale.

Not very constructive or spiritual I guess but I have concluded the church of man's creation is a house for sale that is not worth buying.

I have encountered that view of the bible before Pops. Not sure that it stands up to much analysis. If you restrict it to the new testament you can make a case that Jesus was a philosopher whose ideas have been profoundly influential.... in western culture. Much less so in Asia. My wife is a Buddhist and, as she knew very little about before coming to Australia, finds christianity bizarre. Man nailed to a cross rises from the dead, rides a cloud up into the sky etc. So a large proportion of the world's population are never going to embrace it. From my point of view claiming it as the only true religion is just cultural arrogance.

True BB but one things for sure, Christianity has won as im not aware of any other relgions that have a calender like 2021. So they have won that.

I am reading a book by a French anthropologist who lived with South American tribes in the 1930s in Brazil. An interesting theme is that the tribal leaders led by consensus and by their ability to hunt, source food and keep everyone on side. No hereditary pass on of power. A poor leader just got rejected or their tribe left them for another better leader in another tribe. Quite unusual and democratic.

Their spiritual beliefs were complex but did not tie in with power or control - they were just a fabric of mainly behaviours and ritual woven into their lives.

The leader led well or badly. If badly they had no fall back onto a god or voodoo type powers to help give weak leaders authority.

A tough gig. Hard work. One leader was deeply depressed by his own failings. Another just oozed competency and leadership.

No wonder leaders down through the ages invented supernatural powers and gods to give them authority and protection.

Gets hard and lonely up the top especially if you aren't a natural leader. But with a god and a devil you've got something they will fear and listen to.

From this seed of an idea - religion gives power - massive trees have grown.

They stand before us but seem like the work of man not god to me.

There is no difference between ones belief of a Christian mythical reincarnation from a dead human to a god and another’s belief of Buddhist mythical reincarnation from one being to another. Both believe in the supernatural.

Exactly.
All things religion…

Being driven by your beliefs is a very different matter than consciously understanding how it is your beliefs are created and what purpose they serve.

Beliefs are not true…

We don’t know who discovered water, but we’re certain it wasn’t a fish ;)

I hate to bang on about the 2021 After Death business again but i'd really like to know when they started saying "ok its now 1 AD".
Drives me mad. Was it hudreds of years later where chinese whispers changed the stories hundreds of times...I dont know but its one thing Christianity has that other religions dont, as far as im aware. Do buddhists believe its the year 2021 AD at the moment or do they go by a different calender?

A little baby is born in Bethlehem in a cattle feed trough. His teenage mum and carpenter stepdad there for the Roman census. The child was unique, He came from outside the world and growing up turned the world on its head. So much so , time is calculated by His arrival globally. Thats some kind of influence.
And groundswell, the Dalai Lama has a collection of Rolex mechanical watches. He has good taste…All with time and date” YEAR OF OUR LORD JESUS 2021”
Have a happy and blessed Christmas…..perhaps think less about Santa and more about the joy of the reason for it , and the lives we have enjoyed because of it.

Optimist wrote:

A little baby is born in Bethlehem in a cattle feed trough. His teenage mum and carpenter stepdad there for the Roman census. The child was unique, He came from outside the world and growing up turned the world on its head. So much so , time is calculated by His arrival globally. Thats some kind of influence.
And groundswell, the Dalai Lama has a collection of Rolex mechanical watches. He has good taste…All with time and date” YEAR OF OUR LORD JESUS 2021”
Have a happy and blessed Christmas…..perhaps think less about Santa and more about the joy of the reason for it , and the lives we have enjoyed because of it.

…he has good taste, lmao.

He is as power hungry as any religious leader. While many of his follower starve and have nothing, he has a collection of rolex watches, has a Patek Phillipe also…do you not find that distasteful?

It is amazing to me that a few uneducated goat herders can have a kid and then bring corruption, murder, abuse and control onto the gullible for the next few thousand years.

blindboy wrote:

I have encountered that view of the bible before Pops. Not sure that it stands up to much analysis. If you restrict it to the new testament you can make a case that Jesus was a philosopher whose ideas have been profoundly influential.... in western culture. Much less so in Asia. My wife is a Buddhist and, as she knew very little about before coming to Australia, finds christianity bizarre. Man nailed to a cross rises from the dead, rides a cloud up into the sky etc. So a large proportion of the world's population are never going to embrace it. From my point of view claiming it as the only true religion is just cultural arrogance.

BB cultural arrogance , because there is only one God and doesn't suit the way you want the World.
The Life you and your wife lead today, is because of the teachings in the Bible and the people who carried out the Law of God to create what we call a civilized society today......

I forgot to put the link yesterday.....here is a critical review of "The book that made your World, How the Bible created the soul of Western Civilization by Vishal Mangalawadi"

https://chriscribariblog.com/2017/06/07/the-book-that-made-your-world-re....

I am sure you know Buddhism is not a religion but a philosophy...so yes I would imagine your wife would find Christianity bizarre as it worships a supernatural deity , where she worships the words of a man!

So BB , it's a really interesting Historic of the affect the Bible had on us today...." the Bible transformed the social, political and religious institution's that have sustained Western Culture for the past millennium and how secular corruption endangers the stability and longevity of Western Civilization."
It's about 400 pages , been peer reviewed ...."the Bible unlocked the Western Mind!!

Brutus, the industrial revolution is responsible for what we are today. Science, not religion unlocked the western mind.

Religion tried to block and stop science because it posed a risk to the control and power religion held over the uneducated masses.

Thankfully, science won.

Thank you science.

Good morning Brutus, I appreciate we are talking about a matter of faith for you but when you just said there is only one god do you expect the reader of your post to also accept that to be true? Why is it important/necessary for christians to constantly assert, as it were, their religious superiority like this?

What faith requires of christians is an interesting concept, something Buddhism doesn’t require of it’s followers as it asks the inquisitive novice to question everything before following the path.

Roadkill wrote:

Brutus, the industrial revolution is responsible for what we are today. Science, not religion unlocked the western mind.

Religion tried to block and stop science because it posed a risk to the control and power religion held over the uneducated masses.

Thankfully, science won.

Thank you science.

Totally wrong RK, go and read history , ....https://chriscribariblog.com/2017/06/07/the-book-that-made-your-world-re....

GuySmiley wrote:

Good morning Brutus, I appreciate we are talking about a matter of faith for you but when you just said there is only one god do you expect the reader of your post to also accept that to be true? Why is it important/necessary for christians to constantly assert, as it were, their religious superiority like this?

What faith requires of christians is an interesting concept, something Buddhism doesn’t require of it’s followers as it asks the inquisitive novice to question everything before following the path.

you can't compare Christianity to buddhism.........one worships a supernatural Deity , the other worships the words of a man!

brutus wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

Brutus, the industrial revolution is responsible for what we are today. Science, not religion unlocked the western mind.

Religion tried to block and stop science because it posed a risk to the control and power religion held over the uneducated masses.

Thankfully, science won.

Thank you science.

Totally wrong RK, go and read history , ....https://chriscribariblog.com/2017/06/07/the-book-that-made-your-world-re....

I’m not going to read biased garbage.
The facts are known.

Brutus Buddhism is generally classed as a religion as it believes in reincarnation and supernatural entities that can aid on the path to enlightenment. It also has the great asset of not being concerned much about excluding other belief systems but concentrates on progress towards enlightenment via whatever works for you.
To be honest I find the arrogance of some christians hard to deal with. I mean someone knocks on my door to tell me that everything I believe, after a large amount of study and significant life experience, is wrong. It is pretty tempting to explain, very briefly, why I find their attitude objectionable but why bother? So I just tell them we are Buddhists.

"The Life you and your wife lead today, is because of the teachings in the Bible and the people who carried out the Law of God to create what we call a civilized society today......"

When you consider the advent of agriculture, domestication of animals, The Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution, progress in science etc etc then the above statement starts to look ridiculous.