Anzac spirit dead ?

No, of course globalisation was premeditated, but not the "attack on the solidarity of our society". That was a byproduct of a country that was moving from isolationism, curious about the world beyond its borders, expanding it's own worldview, and in turn rejecting the small-minded worldview that existed throughout the Menzies years.

Calling it a premeditated attack on our solidarity ignores context and has a tinge of the conspiratorial about it.

Also Blowin, I note you erased my use of the word "forced" preceding "civil servitude".

It's kinda important.

China has a one party system tho so its either nationalism or gulag basically. On the same note i think there used to be more co-operation between both sides of parliament here in oz. These days it seems to be acceptable to practically burn the nation to the ground just to gain government.

Dont the kiwis have the same system? Any kiwis here that can confirm if the system over there is worse/better than oz?

Stu - I left the " forced " out by mistake, its very important.

Not a tinge of the conspirational. It is a conspiracy.

Although the word has now had its meaning altered through constant association with vague and imaginary theories, conspiracies merely refer to the collusion of agents to plot and act without full disclosure.

And that's exactly how most political parties operate.

No one can deny that there is an obvious conspiracy amongst the LNP to operate Australia n the interests of corporations before the interests of the Australian people . But that is what's occurring . The LNP will never openly acknowledge this ideology as they are literally conspiring against us.

I believe that their is an overarching conspiracy to divide and conquer western societies for ease of manipulation and control.

The reduction of national identity to the point where it's a derogatory remark to describe someone as a proud Australian , the division of the community along racial, gender and age lines through identity politics and the emphasis on diversity rather than commonality are all tools to accomplish this end.

Obviously I'm not saying that this is true as practiced by all of society , but the instigation of it all was premeditated.

If you're in doubt whether that's a realistic theory , then read up on the advertisements that Russia had bought on Facebook purportedly to influence the election in the USA.

Turns out the adverts that Russia placed were actually Back Lives Matter , identity politics and other types of social messages that they knew would divide rather than uniting America.

Unless you think that Russia paid for those ads with the intent of empowering black citizens in the USA etc .

Russia wishes to destabilise US society.

And they use the same tactic as modern liberal thinking that originated from ....?

PS Obviously Black lives DO matter, but the campaign of Black Lives Matter is extremely divisive and redefines differences amongst citizens more than it promotes solidarity. Ie - You're either with us or against us.

Maybe the societal divisions amongst voters created through the election of Trump were one of the reasons that the powers that be allowed him to get elected ?

Now there's a potential conspiracy.

Still plenty of co-operation between the majors in Australia Gaz.

"The truth is, there is already an enormous amount of bipartisanship in Australian politics. We saw it most recently when the Labor Party joined with the Government to pass the new data retention laws.

And I dare you to get a cigarette paper between Labor and the Coalition on border security and asylum seeker policy or foreign policy more generally.

More significantly, we see consensus in regard to economic policy. Both major parties - indeed, the entire political class - are committed to an economic platform that we might broadly call neoliberal, a system that seeks to introduce market "discipline" into the workings of government. The privatisation and outsourcing done by governments of both major persuasions are indicative and well known."

"It is a conspiracy."

So you truly believe Keating, Hawke, and Hayden secretly colluded during their reforms of the mid-80s? That their real goal wasn't to mobilise the working class but to divide Australia? Erase our identity etc...

You understand I chose that moment because it's when Australia first peered over the fence, assumed a global outlook, received all the benefits of globalisation. 

Accusations of Matrix-style string pulling seem far fetched.

@Andy - similar ideologies maybe but i think bipartisanship has hit rock bottom.

With regards to public behaviour I'd say you're right Gaz but I'm trying to find stats that show how often they vote together to pass bills in the HOR.

I'm wondering if bipartisanship really has hit rock bottom or if it's just that it's only conflict that makes it into the press, or even that the two majors have their fundamental issues that they engage in a pantomime over to differentiate themselves while the rest of the issues/bills are in agreement.

Stu - I reckon it didn't kick into gear until the Howard years. In fact it's mainly driven by the conservative side of politics . Neoliberalism.

Why else would Howard demonise refugees whilst upping immigration exponentially ?

You can say it was to appeal to the One Nation demographic , but in those days it was tiny . Why not concentrate on the positives of all sides of immigration - regular and irregular - from the get go ?

You may say that there was a wave of disapproval towards a potential flood of refugees and that Howard was responding to this. But there is a current wave of disapproval towards the excessively high immigration policies that are routinely ignored by the same strain of government , or else the issue is massaged into irrelevance by a complicit media .

Why not approach the refugee issue in the same manner ?

Sowing the seeds of discontent into society is why.

The good cop / bad cop routine continues to this day.

PS Matrix style plotting?

I reckon it works like this - Billionares ( trillionares ?) collude, discuss. Find common ground. Fund think tanks to discover ways to implement their plans and provide direction to the corrupt political bodies that do their bidding.

Revolutionary Technology always appears magic until you see the science behind it and so it is with attempting to alter the course of mankind by those with the ambition and resources to attempt it. Utilise the media , social engineering and the education system to attempt create a new societal consensus.

In a world where a war can be running continuously for 16 years against a country that poses zero threat ( Afghanistan ) or where another country ( Iraq ) can be invaded and occupied under the pretence of proven falsehoods and both wars based purely around a profit motive ....is so hard to believe that the powers responsible would employ such Machiavellian tactics against the citizens of their own countries ?

No I haven't .

Somehow I doubt that Naomi Klein is big on the theory of the fractualisation of Nations into ethnic and political subgroups as a way to diffuse the focus of a population so as to diminish its ability to recognise and dispel a common enemy .

An enemy that views democracy and the sovereign rights of nations as anathema to its continued accumulation of world power.

Stu is currently pissing himself at this stylised James Bond arch villain plot of world domination.

But then he's probably never worked for XXXXXXX either. You know the company that arranged for the US government to unnecessarily bomb the water infrastructure of Iraq into ruins so that they could get the US taxpayers to pay for its reconstruction at hideously overpriced rates .

NZ - just wiki'd Shock Doctrine . Does sound like more of the same.

Pissing myself? No, just being pedantic about your use of the word 'premeditated' in the context of globalisation.

Also, Howard demonising boat people while upping the immigrant intake was one aspect of the Liberals famous (infamous?) wedge of Labor. If you're looking for overarching motives then that's it.

I don't disagree with the premise that opportunists prey on disaster, unrest, and tumult; Naomi Klein is bang on, as she almost always is. FFS, Smith & Wesson and Sturm Rutger (another gun company) both surged on the stockmarket this morning.

But even in that scenario the cart is still behind the horse. Unless you think the Las Vegas shooting was also some kind of conspiracy?

So my skepticism hinges upon the belief that corporations are dictating all major events - especially in the Australian context. No doubt they'd like to have more influence, and that their motives are sinister, it's one reason we have to fight tooth and nail when fuckwits like T Abbott erode the power of our institutions.

However, defaulting to conspiracy is to underestimate how random the world can be, how interconnected yet unhinged it is, how tiny events can snowball without underlying design or intention.

And lastly, I did an apprenticeship with XXXXXXXX. Yeah I was grabbing sausage rolls and choc milks while the fellas ran sorties but I still know how the world works.

Was the Anzac spirit ever alive post the 1940's? Any example other than the shared experience of the world wars and a bit of larrikinism?

Bit of disparity between visitors/migrants to Oz and UK as well. Aussies have the run of the NHS, gratis. For people migrating to Australia from the UK its now compulsory for them to take out medical insurance which covers nothing more than you would get without it, if you had the choice not to take it out. Contrary to popular belief migrating to Australia isn't particularly quick, easy or cheap, certainly no red carpet, which is as it should be.

Re nationalism - fear not it is alive and well in Australia. The only other place I've seen as many, hang on, any 'love it or leave' bumper stickers is the US. But the seppos are a confident bunch whereas Aussies are a bit thin skinned when it comes to national pride, bit like the Scots. Doesn't take much of a perceived threat before the locals start tub thumping and herein lies the danger of nationalism, its a very fine line between the harmless and the sinister variety.

A very fine line ?

You think it's a very fine line between a bumper sticker and Nazi style fascism ?

I take it that you didn't love Australia and so you left it . So you agree with the bumper sticker .

That's actually a damn solid point upnorth.

There's a 99.99% chance that the "Anzac Spirit" is just the propaganda we're hanging onto from a hundred years ago. It probably never existed anywhere other than in the news papers and ended with the war.

Most decent people would probably share the same compassion for any of our neighbors if we knew them.

Anzac Day is one of the last vestiges of the Australian identity that many grew up with.

As the demographics of Australia's ethnicity changes through high immigration and the consequent cultural shift that follows , many find that they enjoy the day of solidarity that is Anzac Day.

It's a day to remember the soldiers that have fallen for us and it's also a day that is utterly Anglo Australian.

There's no right or wrong about this . It's not dismissive of other cultures to want to celebrate your own.

Ever noticed the rise in celebration of Anzac Day in parallel with the rise in immigration ?

Every country has a national day of celebration of their culture. Anzac Day fills this void and will become even more prominent with the shift of dates and meaning of Australia Day from a January 26 celebration of the commencement of Anglo Australia to a more inclusive Australia Day reflecting the cultural diversity of modern times.

PS You ask if the Anzac spirit ever existed.

As an Australian I can say that yes , absolutely the Anzac spirit exists.

I've spent a lot of time with a lot of Kiwis and I still feel a kinship that seems to have been present within myself and amongst our cultures since I can remember.

It's in a similar ,though more powerful vein to the kinship we feel with the UK or less so , the USA.

We are culturally very similar and we were almost part of a single country. In Australia , no one is subject to as much derision as those you are close to and no nation attracts as much derision from Australians as New Zealand.

We know theyd have our back in a war.

Anzac Day's origins are Gallipoli . In 1915, King and Country. The first public holiday (Victoria) was 1925. The day gained more importance with WW2. Attendance at the march declined in the 60s and 70s but increased in the 1990s a period coinciding with John Howard's prime ministership.

For another perspective on Gallipoli try Paul Keating.

Don't know about anglo-saxon but it definitely is a day of national pride.

The ANZAC campaign also included indians, maori's, aboriginals to name a few that I know of. I think there was even an army of ghurka's there with the brits too.

"Ever noticed the rise in celebration of Anzac Day in parallel with the rise in immigration ?"

My own view was the resurgence in Anzac Day coincided with Howard ramping up the conservative agenda. As I was growing up Anzac Day was always kinda there, but was also fading in importance. Wasn't relevant to younger people anymore who couldn't connect with the history and were growing into a very different - read: outward looking - world. Bill Hayden advocating economic integration with Asia, Keating's Asian Century etc etc.

When Howard came to power he wrested the old view back. Remember him saying he was the Liberal's most conservative leader ever? Flag waving was all of a sudden popular again, Southern Cross tattoos, a strange ad hoc adoption of 'Australian values'.

Only my interpetation, however I think the Anzac resurgence was a top down response from a new government and nothing to do with immigration.

Agree stu and the exponential popularity of flag waving on Australia Day also coincided with the Howard years.

I recall being jolted when overt forms of nationalism became popular again during the 90s. All of a sudden people were compelled to show public displays of patriotism and those that didn't were accused of not loving their country.

I'd never have said I was anti-Australian yet I didn't get with that attitude, still dont in fact. It reeks of small-mindedness and fear. I fucken hate the "love it or leave it" bumper sticker mentality that forces people to list their commitment to our country in the most banal ways. It's a perversion of patriotism not a manifestation.

You've got the tail waving the dog , Stu.

Howard wasn't a leader , he was a politician that read the mood.

Change the government, change the country.

I agree with the dislike of chest thumping patriotism but I'm just as opposed to the clump that claims if you feel love for our country in its entirety - geographically , culturally and historically - then youre a mindless bigot .

I've never waved or worn an Australian flag in my life and I was as surprised as yourself when the flag became a " thing " as it is in the USA.

But I understand where the sentiment is coming from.

Many people were extremely happy with the way Australia was before our ethnic makeup got so radically altered, doesn't make them bigots either.

No one is calling the Balinese bigots when they wax nostalgically about the days before millions of foreigners and foreign enclaves. It's just that they weren't unhappy before the change and it's debatable whether the new cultural reality has improved their lives.

And the Balinese culture is strong and not susceptible to the white anting that plagues Australian culture and falsely claims it doesn't and never did exist.

Howard never had the cult of personality required to affect the hearts and minds of Australia.

He was elected with a major onus on his economic claims that interest rates would not climb during the first property boom.

Disagree. The two don't coincide: the rise of flag-waving ra ra, and the rise in immigration. Just been checking timeline stats. Would have to go granular to see if the immigration makeup altered - i.e from Euro to Asian - however the flag waving was across the country and not just in places where immigration was felt.

I'll stick with my original assertion.

Either way , it's come full circle now.

Anzac Day before last and they were flying the Irish and Phillipines flags at the Anzac Day dawn service.

Can't have anyone feeling left out.

"Many people were extremely happy with the way Australia was before our ethnic makeup got so radically altered, doesn't make them bigots either."

Really?

The English convicts hated the Irish convicts.
The Protestants hated the Catholics.
And the CofE's hated them both.
In 1890 we all hated the coloured folk and shut the borders to all but "the white man."
But when we let them in we hated the dagos and the ities.
Then we hated the Vietnamese.
And after them the Chinese.

But in spite of all that Australian culture has remained surprisngly adaptable and resilient. It has its limits of course, but looking back to some fictional Australian Arcadia serves no-one.

Totally agree, Stu.

So you must remember Australia of your early years as a hotbed of racial hatred ?

I remember it as a smattering of Greeks , Italians and Vietnamese with the odd exotica amongst them . Surrounded by acres and acres of people that chose not to like people for differences other than race if they were that way inclined.

I'll honestly say that I preferred Australia in those days and most people I know did too.

Didn't you ?

I feel displaced when I visit most cities these days . Not uplifted by diversity.

That's not fear or narrow Mindedness. Nor is it bigotry.

I'm not afraid or ignorant of what's going down . I just aren't that into it. I like the Australian culture and that's what I choose to surround myself with when I'm in Australia.

No different from most people really. They enjoy being surrounded by the familiar - that's true inclusion.

Why else do you think that ethnic enclaves occur decades after the original arrivals have settled in ?

@Blowin - They have to keep altering the format though just to keep it relevant. The ANZAC Gallipoli campaign was over 100 years ago now. There's been half a dozen wars since with people changing allegiances, occupations, annexing etc etc.

The Russians definitely aren't friends with the Germans anymore.

I'm actually all for the nationalist flag waving and chest beating its just a shame its often hijacked for something more sinister/racist/redneck/bigoted. I agree with Blowin that we're having the euro dream forced on to us but no one has the guts to address it except the redneck politicians.

John Howards views on asian immigration "I do believe that if it is – in the eyes of some in the community – that it's too great, it would be in our immediate-term interest and supporting of social cohesion if it were slowed down a little, so the capacity of the community to absorb it was greater."

Pauline Hansons maiden speech "I believe we are in danger of being swamped by Asians."

I don't necessarily think multi-culturalism is the death of the ANZAC spirit but it seems likely that new citizens to this country probably wouldn't feel any stirring or gratitude to our wartime ancestors. Just as we wouldn't if we migrated elsewhere. Nearly half of all current aussies were born overseas.

So what do you see as the limits of Australian culture Stu?

This thread seems to have gone into history wars territory.

Black armbands v three cheers at 10 paces.

Agree with Stu's point that Australians have seemed to cope with the waves of new settlers. Then again that's easier when there is a bit of space and a full belly

@Blowin,

Yeah I remember plenty of hatred directed toward reffos, boongers, pakis, and wogs. Are you saying you don't?

Yet now many of those who were the victims of racism are pleasantly integrated - excepting the Aboriginals who you have more in common with than you may realise, feeling displaced and all.

The corollary is that Australia is ever-changing. Always has been, or at least since 1788. And I don't share your aversion to modern Australia. On occasions we take our boys to lunch or dinner at Hurstville, Cabramatta, or Campsie to get food we can't eat at home. Order food from menus written solely in another language, talk story with the staff and other trivialities that you may laugh at. I love it. It uplifts me - not in a Herculean sense.

I said in an earlier post that changes have their limits and I'll reiterate it here. Too much change too soon frightens people who aren't aware that culture is changing all the time anyway. For that we need to bring the immigration level down.

However, I can see how much Australian culture has changed over the years and I'm confident it can absorb the changes coming.

"I said in an earlier post that changes have their limits and I'll reiterate it here. Too much change too soon frightens people who aren't aware that culture is changing all the time anyway. For that we need to bring the immigration level down."

Blainey said (IMO) words to that effect and was vilified for it.

Charged words. Emotive subject.

Fortunately we're just a humble surf site.

@inzider - backon the topic, I assume the oz government thought that it might open up a loophole for "economic refugees" who might use NZ as a backdoor entrance into Australian citizenship somehow. Pacific islanders etc but I actually have no idea what the citizenship pathway is in New Zealand.

'John Howards views on asian immigration "I do believe that if it is – in the eyes of some in the community – that it's too great, it would be in our immediate-term interest and supporting of social cohesion if it were slowed down a little, so the capacity of the community to absorb it was greater."

Pauline Hansons maiden speech "I believe we are in danger of being swamped by Asians."

I don't necessarily think multi-culturalism is the death of the ANZAC spirit but it seems likely that new citizens to this country probably wouldn't feel any stirring or gratitude to our wartime ancestors. Just as we wouldn't if we migrated elsewhere. Nearly half of all current aussies were born overseas.'

What? Honestly... what? Seriously?

FFS have a look at how long, and how much, and how ever expanding is our culture's love of exploiting 'immigrants' in their own countries. Our culture doesn't give a shit about how much it outsources and exploits labour, as long as it can make a buck. So 'we'll use you all up, and turn a blind eye to atrocious exploitation of overseas people', as much as we like, in fact, more and more and more in any endeavor possible, is ok, but 'immigration is destroying our soul', our 'Anzac Spirit'? Fucking beyond ludicrous. Honestly as ludicrous, no beyond ludicrously freaking about whether or not the 'suss' panel beater is using a good brand of rust proofing undercoat, when you are forever parking your car in a salt swamp. Or watching numbskulls who can't stop stuffing their faces with shit 'jogging' the blubber off. The reality is, we are 'swamping the Asians' with our fucking ever exploding, greed based stupidity and 'values'.

'If there were any doubt that the purported history of the Gallipoli campaign – built on a midden of historical half-truths and outright falsehoods – had fallen prey to contemporary politics and commercialisation, the spate of centennial memorialisation and relentless Anzackery provided ample evidence.'

https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2015/december/1448888400/mark-mckenn...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/factcheck/2014-04-25/five-anzac-myths-put-to-...

https://www.auckland.ac.nz/en/about/perspectives/opinion/opinion-2017/an...

Stu - I fully get your love of foreign culture. Even just dipping your toe into the waters at a foreign restaurant is stimulating and rewarding.

I wont be laughing at the trivialities. That is as much the reason I travel as for waves. As I've said before , I'll often find Australia too homogenous and sterile and I have to leave for a little while at least.

But....I don't enjoy returning to places that were previously familiar in Australia and finding them unrecognisable culturally. Way too much too soon. Change is inevitable but the pace of change is unpleasant.

And it's not driven by anything but the mercantile interests of big business.

Did you ask for such radical change ? I didn't .

I also resent having to defend my opinion on the subject , having to deny accusations of racism and xenophobia.

I'm not afraid of change or foreign cultures , in fact I need them to prevent myself from stagnating and drowning in boredom . But I don't want it thrust upon me at an overwhelming pace and scale.

PS I don't recall any real hatred towards other races from my youth . It wasn't a big deal for someone to get referred to as a fucking wog just as it wasn't a big deal for someone to get referred to as a fat cunt.

An unpleasant exchange between individuals in trying circumstance maybe , but no segregation , enduring persecution or rejection of someone based on race. At all.

just like Tassie, i do feel alittle bit sorry for ya champ........

a school teacher who likesta use big word's. cmon mate, yacando... better than that... surely.

Howard's years and his "battle of ideas" .... as discussed above as well as an on-going assault on the national school curriculum back to a more traditional "terra nullius" English centric view of the world .... well Keating had gone too far with his Redfern speech and the attempted rewriting of Australian history to include an Aboriginal perspective was a bridge too far. Further, under Howard the embracing of Asia as Australia's future during Hawke/Keating for needed to be corrected, the balance reset to one of looking to Europe but particularly the US.

Keating's Redfern Speech

please Herc, please, don't tell me you like that fuckin red head ? for fuck sake don't quote that idiot. as always i like to agree with what ya say, bloody love most of what ya say. but please don't mention that dog's name when your makin a point. or talkin about Australia, that stinkin thing gives our country a bad rep.

Wasn't questioning the importance of Anzac Day to many Aussies and Kiwis, like Armistice Day and VE Day its a time to remember the sacrifice our forebears made so that we could be here.

But is there any more to the Anzac spirit than Anzac Day? Lived in both countries for a while and to me there is little evidence of it. Aussies and Kiwis are poles apart - culture, history (indigenous particularly), values, outlook. Politically there is little favour given. Yes there's a shared language and history of European colonisation but what else?

@blowin
'I take it that you didn't love Australia and so you left it . So you agree with the bumper sticker .'

Trying to illustrate my point? How much would i have to like Australia before you felt i could stay? Or is just liking it not enough.

Fwiw i do love some things about Oz - surfing, exploring and being outside in general - its impossible not to fall for Australia. There's more of course - people, places, pale ale, Frogstomp. But that's only part of my life. We've got a nipper to raise and partly because of the ubiquitous nature of the 'love it or leave' brigade and overbearing Nationalism in general Australia isn't the place we want to do that. We're lucky to have a choice.