The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

I focus Wednesday, 19 Apr 2023 at 8:08pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
Look Adam, you are just another muppet that cant stand the fact an indigenous women doesn't think the way you believe she should, it clearly drive's you and others crazy, and you guys sure waste a lot of time dissing her, which only tells me she is doing a lot right.

Come on Indo you are better than that.

truebluebasher Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 12:21am

How did CLP Shadow Indigenous Affairs Minister lose more Vote % than 2022 Fed [L]
Jacinta lost 5,567 Votes...with riggin' a safe seat + $Gazillion News Media + Open [L] Party Bounty

Just wanna share this...20 years ago tbb's wife scored 13,000 votes on own pocket money & leg power!
NT AEC Poll booths wouldn't even amount to 10% of 100's Poll booths we had to cover...not joking.
In other words..NT CLP candidate needs less 90% less funds & effort with 1 of 2 seats locked in.
We had 6 [L] Party Developer funded Candidates to topple & we knocked over Goldie Whiteshoe God.

If tbb was to be brutally honest...families shared a similar life to Jacinta in political way & other.
Media have plastered Jacinta's DV Portfolio over & around the Nation several times...
Like many...our family also copped more continual DV than wot Jacinta has repeatedly shared!
tbb has long continually supported many Oz DV mobs...$1,000's & plenty more again this week' next.
tbb has no income other than wot good folk of Oz provide & tbb shares that with many Oz help groups!
Just copped 6mths abuse in own home...Qld health flick me & still can't get thru to lifeline...Try & fail!
Struggle to leave the House & make excuses to return fast, yet tbb still reckons he lives a charmed life.

Jacinta wears DV like a broken record...wearin' a little thin on we fellow DV sufferers!
Kinda like other VIP TV Sports heroes that smash up people & instantly get a bout of Bipolar...
We fellow Bipolar sufferers have to suffer further stigma each time them VIP creeps strike out!

Just thought to share Jacinta's News Media Message to her 2022 electorate .
Perhaps crew can feel her love & compassion for we sufferers hoping to access Lifeline or other!
Maybe even a kind word for the nice folk of NT.

tbb thought to backtrack & see where CLP Jacinta went off the rails toppling her [L] Federal Train Wreck.
After addressing her Mob at recent 2022 voter backlash...not even one year in politics...
[L] Leader gave her the #1 role of Oz Aboriginal Leadership above The Voice of a Nation!

Jacinta's #1 News Media Message for good people of NT electorate.
Reasons for NT to return [L] Govt.

"When I get to Canberra!" (Shh! Don't tell her you can't say that!) Outta my way tbb!

Open letter pits Leftie LGBTQI kidz (vs) 40% Indigenous truants (Sounds like fair game!)
You (vs) Me behind the Unisex Toilets after our Voice Choir Practice!
Yep! You got it...buckle up & away we go...

* Gender speak is alienating bashed up Grog & Drug Victims (Something Like that?)
* ALL women are Under Attack from Labor Marxist Ideology! (Gets a Repeat Spray)
* Removing Women's Rights & giving them to Men Playing Dress Up!
* Gynophobic Attacks on Katherine must stop! (Refers to barrage of [L] White Coats!)
* Left Marxists want to silence her & bully her into submission!
* They're making an example of her, so no one dares fight back!
* New Wave of Dress Wearing Misogyny!
* Women's rights are now under attack!
* We women won't be silenced!
* 4x Lefties spray >> in Melbourne & Sydney etc... etc...
* Left Wokeness has gone too far
* Left Political Correctness has gone too far
* Repeat spray about Lauren Moss (State Ed minister)
* Repeat spray about Michael Gunner (State Premier)

AEC 2022 Results ...Over 5,000 CLP Aboriginal Voters were Medivac'd from NT Voting Booths!
Jacinta's 2022 open Voice is the most hateful divisive poisonous speech & her Mob abandoned her!

Not even one year on after massive Rant & First Nation CLP Voter Backlash against Jacinta...
Equally unpopular leader Dutto rewards poisonous Jacinta to be our one & only Voice of First Nation!

Wot sorta evil twisted outcast overlords wish this upon First Nation after they just ran a mile from it.
Please won't these Over[L]ords just take a day off & remove their jackboots off Aboriginal's necks!
Why must every [L] Vote be won by further exploiting First Nation inclusion...Please just let them be!

#1 NT Voice Box for Jacinta trolling her dirty laundry ...NT Mother's & Kids would still be in hiding!
Best advice is to poke out yer eyeballs out after reading it & just pretend ya never cried! So sad it is!
https://ntindependent.com.au/a-letter-from-jacinta-price-senate-candidat...

andy-mac Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 6:44am

truebluebasher wrote:
How did CLP Shadow Indigenous Affairs Minister lose more Vote % than 2022 Fed [L]
Jacinta lost 5,567 Votes...with riggin' a safe seat + $Gazillion News Media + Open [L] Party Bounty

Just wanna share this...20 years ago tbb's wife scored 13,000 votes on own pocket money & leg power!
NT AEC Poll booths wouldn't even amount to 10% of 100's Poll booths we had to cover...not joking.
In other words..NT CLP candidate needs less 90% less funds & effort with 1 of 2 seats locked in.
We had 6 [L] Party Developer funded Candidates to topple & we knocked over Goldie Whiteshoe God.

If tbb was to be brutally honest...families shared a similar life to Jacinta in political way & other.
Media have plastered Jacinta's DV Portfolio over & around the Nation several times...
Like many...our family also copped more continual DV than wot Jacinta has repeatedly shared!
tbb has long continually supported many Oz DV mobs...$1,000's & plenty more again this week' next.
tbb has no income other than wot good folk of Oz provide & tbb shares that with many Oz help groups!
Just copped 6mths abuse in own home...Qld health flick me & still can't get thru to lifeline...Try & fail!
Struggle to leave the House & make excuses to return fast, yet tbb still reckons he lives a charmed life.

Jacinta wears DV like a broken record...wearin' a little thin on we fellow DV sufferers!
Kinda like other VIP TV Sports heroes that smash up people & instantly get a bout of Bipolar...
We fellow Bipolar sufferers have to suffer further stigma each time them VIP creeps strike out!

Just thought to share Jacinta's News Media Message to her 2022 electorate .
Perhaps crew can feel her love & compassion for we sufferers hoping to access Lifeline or other!
Maybe even a kind word for the nice folk of NT.

tbb thought to backtrack & see where CLP Jacinta went off the rails toppling her [L] Federal Train Wreck.
After addressing her Mob at recent 2022 voter backlash...not even one year in politics...
[L] Leader gave her the #1 role of Oz Aboriginal Leadership above The Voice of a Nation!

Jacinta's #1 News Media Message for good people of NT electorate.
Reasons for NT to return [L] Govt.

"When I get to Canberra!" (Shh! Don't tell her you can't say that!) Outta my way tbb!

Open letter pits Leftie LGBTQI kidz (vs) 40% Indigenous truants (Sounds like fair game!)
You (vs) Me behind the Unisex Toilets after our Voice Choir Practice!
Yep! You got it...buckle up & away we go...

* Gender speak is alienating bashed up Grog & Drug Victims (Something Like that?)
* ALL women are Under Attack from Labor Marxist Ideology! (Gets a Repeat Spray)
* Removing Women's Rights & giving them to Men Playing Dress Up!
* Gynophobic Attacks on Katherine must stop! (Refers to barrage of [L] White Coats!)
* Left Marxists want to silence her & bully her into submission!
* They're making an example of her, so no one dares fight back!
* New Wave of Dress Wearing Misogyny!
* Women's rights are now under attack!
* We women won't be silenced!
* 4x Lefties spray >> in Melbourne & Sydney etc... etc...
* Left Wokeness has gone too far
* Left Political Correctness has gone too far
* Repeat spray about Lauren Moss (State Ed minister)
* Repeat spray about Michael Gunner (State Premier)

AEC 2022 Results ...Over 5,000 CLP Aboriginal Voters were Medivac'd from NT Voting Booths!
Jacinta's 2022 open Voice is the most hateful divisive poisonous speech & her Mob abandoned her!

Not even one year on after massive Rant & First Nation CLP Voter Backlash against Jacinta...
Equally unpopular leader Dutto rewards poisonous Jacinta to be our one & only Voice of First Nation!

Wot sorta evil twisted outcast overlords wish this upon First Nation after they just ran a mile from it.
Please won't these Over[L]ords just take a day off & remove their jackboots off Aboriginal's necks!
Why must every [L] Vote be won by further exploiting First Nation inclusion...Please just let them be!

#1 NT Voice Box for Jacinta trolling her dirty laundry ...NT Mother's & Kids would still be in hiding!
Best advice is to poke out yer eyeballs out after reading it & just pretend ya never cried! So sad it is!
https://ntindependent.com.au/a-letter-from-jacinta-price-senate-candidat...

She is coming across as nutty as Lidia. How long until the wheels fall off ...
Has a dig at all the perceived boogy men out there, got to get them teachers teaching Marxism .. moronic....

"A special welcome to the lefties doing opposition research who may have been offended by my introduction."

GuySmiley Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 9:24am

GuySmiley wrote:
hey @info apart from campaigning against the Voice what else should JP be doing in her formal capacity as shadow minister for Indigenous affairs?

**crickets**

Optimist Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 10:01am

Personally I can’t see what all the fuss is about. Living side by side with aboriginal families everyone is going really well around here and the same in all the other NSW. Coastal towns I’ve lived.
Most around here are all working in trades , council, public housing , parks, retail just the same as everyone else. Everyone has a house, a nice car, most have a mortgage. They have families and do sport on weekends have barbies with a big crew just like everyone else. They get extra help if needed with housing, work, counselling they even get lunch money for their kids if they want it.
The only aboriginal people who are not doing well are the same as the Aussie bogans who are not doing well. Lazy, drunk, drugs always whining and wanting more for nothing. One of the main problems aboriginal people do face and it is a direct result of a lack of education in a modern world and that is NOT thinking through the consequences of your actions. It’s why prisons have so many people who shouldn’t be there. This applies to everyone not just indigenous people and education helps fix that. I know personally the Koori kids killing it in school with a great future and the ones with the angry lazy parents who wag school and spend their days causing trouble and to see history repeat like their parents is tragic.
My last neighbour was heard yelling one night by me …quote” I’m not letting my FN kids go to any white mans college”….what hope do those little kids have in the modern world they were born into….and born into it they are.
With 51% of the Australian land mass already under native title there are opportunities galore for aboriginal people to live anywhere and any way they please already. I’m sure there are opportunities to ditch British style society and live as their ancestors lived if they like and many I’m sure already do.
I know of beach front land that is under native title right now and nobody lives on it even though they can…..I would be happy to mind it for them and build a little place.
The real truth is that most people like to live in town near the shops, sports grounds, clubs etc. just like the British descendants because most people regardless of race or culture just like it better….most people like comforts and convenience.
So, what’s all the fuss about?

soggydog Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 10:58am

Optimist wrote:
Personally I can’t see what all the fuss is about. Living side by side with aboriginal families everyone is going really well around here and the same in all the other NSW. Coastal towns I’ve lived.
Most around here are all working in trades , council, public housing , parks, retail just the same as everyone else. Everyone has a house, a nice car, most have a mortgage. They have families and do sport on weekends have barbies with a big crew just like everyone else. They get extra help if needed with housing, work, counselling they even get lunch money for their kids if they want it.
The only aboriginal people who are not doing well are the same as the Aussie bogans who are not doing well. Lazy, drunk, drugs always whining and wanting more for nothing. One of the main problems aboriginal people do face and it is a direct result of a lack of education in a modern world and that is NOT thinking through the consequences of your actions. It’s why prisons have so many people who shouldn’t be there. This applies to everyone not just indigenous people and education helps fix that. I know personally the Koori kids killing it in school with a great future and the ones with the angry lazy parents who wag school and spend their days causing trouble and to see history repeat like their parents is tragic.
My last neighbour was heard yelling one night by me …quote” I’m not letting my FN kids go to any white mans college”….what hope do those little kids have in the modern world they were born into….and born into it they are.
With 51% of the Australian land mass already under native title there are opportunities galore for aboriginal people to live anywhere and any way they please already. I’m sure there are opportunities to ditch British style society and live as their ancestors lived if they like and many I’m sure already do.
I know of beach front land that is under native title right now and nobody lives on it even though they can…..I would be happy to mind it for them and build a little place.
The real truth is that most people like to live in town near the shops, sports grounds, clubs etc. just like the British descendants because most people regardless of race or culture just like it better….most people like comforts and convenience.
So, what’s all the fuss about?

Would you also be happy not bring them their one true God, letting them know that the story’s passed for possibly 50,000 years are just silly fantasy and the Jesus will save them, even though the track record of dealing with “men of god” has been a pretty rough ride so far. Something like that?

The Westminster System of government is that of an occupying force, if you are an aboriginal person.

GuySmiley Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 12:46pm

Yesterday we mourned a great christian leader’s death, a very positive man who dedicated his life to the poor.

Let’s all thank our gods while he was a positive christian influencer he wasn’t at all like our Optimist

GuySmiley Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 12:53pm

GuySmiley wrote:
GuySmiley wrote:
hey @info apart from campaigning against the Voice what else should JP be doing in her formal capacity as shadow minister for Indigenous affairs?

**crickets**

@ info got nothing?

andy-mac Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 2:09pm

"Price declined to comment."

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/20/central-land-coun...

Supafreak Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 2:55pm

andy-mac wrote:
"Price declined to comment."

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/20/central-land-coun...

Don’t know how she’s going to go when reporters other than sky after dark hit her with some tough questions.

overthefalls Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 3:30pm

Supa, I don’t think she will fare too well when she is confronted with gritty questions. Last night, I watched the Credlin Report on Sky TV so that I could try to gain some understanding of why the Liberal Party are so vehemently opposed to The Voice, but not much light was shed on the matter. It was just a cringey interview with Jacinta Price (and her husband!) and a corny advertisement funded by Advance Australia, both of which just banged on about how The Voice will divide her family and the nation, without adequately explaining how that could occur. She lost much credibility when she stated that “Australia has to return to being a united country.” WTF? When was modern Australia ever a united country? She seems like a well-intentioned person, but I I think she is out of her depth. Even a constitutional law expert stated recently that opposition to The Voice on the grounds that it is racially divisive is “just too silly for words”.

andy-mac Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 3:45pm

Unfortunately for Australia the primary reason I believe that the LNP (some members) are against the Voice is purely for political wedge purposes. It is seemingly going to back fire badly on them as it has exposed their true colours. Nats also I should add.
Reckon a lot of small l liberals are pissed, the Teal seats are not coming back and their only support is from the sky after dark circle jerk crew
Whether Voice gets up or not, the LNP will look bad.
Interesting times..

andy-mac Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 3:46pm

Supafreak wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
"Price declined to comment."

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/20/central-land-coun...

Don’t know how she’s going to go when reporters other than sky after dark hit her with some tough questions.

If Insiders was any indication, not so good.

adam12 Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 4:35pm

Optimist
"The real truth is that most people like to live in town near the shops, sports grounds, clubs etc. just like the British descendants because most people regardless of race or culture just like it better….most people like comforts and convenience.
So, what’s all the fuss about?"
FMD
You do understand the connection to country inherent in Indigenous culture?
Maybe you don't. Too busy reading the Bible.
You also should know that of the 150,000 convicts sent to Australia not all were British, a great many were Irish and a large number of Scots came as fusiliers (guards), similarly with the free settlers to Australia, and you should know that the first generations of white Australians born here, called the Currency, were nothing like their British forebears or British free settlers (called the Stirling) and in fact hated them. Many Chinese came during the Gold Rush plus various European migrants after the wars and so on. Not everyone had or has "British descendants", and a great many Indigenous Australians don't want to live near the "shops, sports grounds or clubs" but want to live in country. If you can't comprehend what "all the fuss is about" in relation to the Voice then you are part of the problem and should stick to posting Bible passages and talking about your sky fairy.

GuySmiley Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 4:35pm

Supafreak wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
"Price declined to comment."

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/20/central-land-coun...

Don’t know how she’s going to go when reporters other than sky after dark hit her with some tough questions.

Hence my repeated questioning of @info above about her formal role of shadow minister for indigenous affairs.

The fact that he hasn’t come back to me at all supports my view that @info and his fellow FRWNJs (so-called conservatives) can talk you asleep with what they oppose but have absolutely nothing when it comes to what they favour in terms of progressing the country. FFS we have just had 9 years of a policy vacuum from the right and the country finally said no.

IMO this will not end well for JP and the LNP, she’ll not be welcomed on country and will quickly become what she criticised the Voice for ie it will be her role as the token “Canberra voice”.

indo-dreaming Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 5:51pm

GuySmiley wrote:
hey @info apart from campaigning against the Voice what else should JP be doing in her formal capacity as shadow minister for Indigenous affairs?

When in opposition, id expect it would be calling out the pathetic job that Linda Burney is doing, although at least she got a taste of real indigenous issues first hand recently probably for the first time in her life.

BTW. Ive replied to your question, but no im not here at your beg and call to answer every question you ask in real time, sometimes i do actually work, and just because you post or ask a question doesnt mean im going to reply.

Im not interested in replying to every hateful comment aimed at Jacinta, it gets old real quick.

zenagain Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 6:00pm

Hey Indo, for all intensive porpoises it's 'beck and call'.

indo-dreaming Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 6:35pm

zenagain wrote:
Hey Indo, for all intensive porpoises it's 'beck and call'.

ha ha okay

andy-mac Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 7:39pm

He mustn't have looked too hard over at the old commie ABC, as actually quite a few stories on Lidia's strip club shenanigans on their website.
A Murdoch sock puppet wouldn't be lying would he???

https://m.

GuySmiley Thursday, 20 Apr 2023 at 8:18pm

Thanks @info, so you’re confirming my view that JP will have nothing positive to say nor role to play as the shadow minister for indigenous affairs. Classic FRWNJ politics. IMO this will end very badly for JP, she could easily end up a pariah in and out of politics not that Dutton or the LNP would care.

Supafreak Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 4:08am

Don’t think spud spoke with these two shoppers. https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/indigenous-u...

Supafreak Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 5:02am

There’s a reason he’s known as backflip Tony …….Tony Abbott vows to 'sweat blood' for Indigenous referendum …….Tony Abbott wants a referendum to be held in May 2017 to recognise Indigenous Australians in the constitution, but won't commit to a date until he is confident it will succeed.

"I am prepared to sweat blood on this," the Prime Minister declared at a Recognise dinner at Redfern on Thursday night, saying the cause was "at least as important as all the other causes this government has been prepared to take on". "But I do not want it to fail because every Australian would be the loser. It is more important to get this right than to try to rush it through.

"We cannot finalise when the referendum should be held until we are comfortable that we have the proposal with the best chance of success." Mr Abbott told the fundraising dinner he was a supporter of constitutional recognition because he wants our country "to transcend the 'them and us' mindset to embrace 'all of us' in the spirit of generous inclusion that has always marked Australians at our best". "The country we created has an Aboriginal heritage, a British foundation and a multicultural character and it's high time that this reality was reflected in our Constitution.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/tony-abbott-vows-to-sweat-blood-...

andy-mac Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 6:22am

andy-mac wrote:
He mustn't have looked too hard over at the old commie ABC, as actually quite a few stories on Lidia's strip club shenanigans on their website.
A Murdoch sock puppet wouldn't be lying would he???

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wtt5nCOZnb0

I'm sure Sky had intensive coverage of this story however, front page of The Australian???

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/18/fox-dominion-settle-us-d...

sameaswas Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 8:11am

GuySmiley wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
"Price declined to comment."

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/20/central-land-coun...

Don’t know how she’s going to go when reporters other than sky after dark hit her with some tough questions.

Hence my repeated questioning of @info above about her formal role of shadow minister for indigenous affairs.

The fact that he hasn’t come back to me at all supports my view that @info and his fellow FRWNJs (so-called conservatives) can talk you asleep with what they oppose but have absolutely nothing when it comes to what they favour in terms of progressing the country. FFS we have just had 9 years of a policy vacuum from the right and the country finally said no.

IMO this will not end well for JP and the LNP, she’ll not be welcomed on country and will quickly become what she criticised the Voice for ie it will be her role as the token “Canberra voice”.

re the guardian article: one of duttons questions first off was who was going to be on this voice "commitee"?, no reply from any pro voice ppl, well now we know it is these 92 elders who are on the govt payrole (gravytrain).
in the l.h. column of article was "who is price?" so i clicked it, one of her statements was a referral to "aboriginal industries" in a negative view...i recomend reading the appendix so youse get an idea of what i am referring to, fair comment by her imo.
it reminded me of a brief expose on insiders (i think, maybe dateline or the drum?) of how an art gallery was hireing female (white) art grads straight out of uni to go to isolated communities to teach them art.
it showed a video of one of em telling the female aboriginal artist to put another water "feature"in and leaping in to do it allso saying she would do the "filling in". this painting was approx 4mx5m and was an authentic depiction of a dreamtime story .
this is the "industry" price is dismayed about, the $$$ of her culture by uni white ppl for profit and those bought out elders are all for it.
the msm have let this expose go unchallenged or looked into!! imo this is art fraud and can't wait for the artworld to take legal action.

indo-dreaming Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 8:13am

GuySmiley wrote:
Thanks @info, so you’re confirming my view that JP will have nothing positive to say nor role to play as the shadow minister for indigenous affairs. Classic FRWNJ politics. IMO this will end very badly for JP, she could easily end up a pariah in and out of politics not that Dutton or the LNP would care.

Look i know it eats you up that she has made it this far because you have always said she wont have success, but you have to let it go, you were wrong, she has made it in many peoples eyes, anything more from here on is a bonus.

But yes as ive said in a previous post she very well might be the next Peter Garret and get eaten up and spat out, but just like Peter at least she had a go, two very real people that really want to bring change and are/were in politics for the right reasons.

BTW. in reality and in fairness to Linda Burney (i was a little harsh on my comment about her) NO shadow minister or no voice will ever bring real change, change (closing the gap) can only ever be made with the things that all other Australians enjoy elsewhere in Australia, good education, employment, services.

Which is the first key to breaking cycles of poverty, violence, alcoholism, high incaceration rates that are the basis of the gap.

The real issue is these things will never be realistic in communities that real need it generally remote communities with major issues.

And any suggestion of encouraging people to areas with these things is seen as bad and culture destroying, and even if happens it;'s hard because they are starting at the bottom.

BTW. Sorry for such far right wing concepts like education and employment, and service's.

Supafreak Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 9:34am

@sameaswas , maybe you can go and confront the 92 elders about what they’re up too ? Spud certainly doesn’t want to meet with them , he’s to busy getting the goss down at the local shops .

Supafreak Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 9:40am

@indo , These things you speak of have been tried and failed before. Isn’t it time to switch tactics and have a voice to parliament on how to tackle the problems. The type of education they need for a start might not be what you have in mind . You thinking that you know what’s best for them is the problem .

GuySmiley Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 9:44am

@info, my harshest criticism is aimed squarely at Dutton and the LNP. While I also disagree with JP’s approach I see she has been put in an impossible position (personally/politically) with her appointment to shadow minister and hence my pariah call.

andy-mac Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 9:50am

From The Guardian:

""09.42 AEST
Government releases solicitor-general’s opinion on the Indigenous Voice
Josh Butler
Josh Butler
The federal government has released the long-awaited solicitor-general’s opinion on the Indigenous Voice, with the nation’s top lawyer saying the proposed change “will not fetter or impede the exercise of the existing powers of the Parliament.”

The opposition had long-called for the government to release the advice. Peter Dutton has claimed the solicitor-general advised against some of the wording in the proposed constitutional amendment.

In the opinion, released by attorney-general Mark Dreyfus in a submission to the parliamentary inquiry on the referendum, the solicitor-general says he was asked to consider two questions, and provided “short answers” before going on to explain the answer in far more detail. The short answers from the SG are as follows:

Question (1): Is proposed s 129 of the Constitution compatible with Australia’s system of representative and responsible government established under the Constitution?

Answer (1): Yes.

Question (2): Would the power to legislate “with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice” in proposed s 129(iii) of the Constitution empower the Parliament to specify whether, and if so, how, Executive Government decision-makers are legally required to consider relevant representations of the Voice?

Answer (2): Yes.

The solicitor-general states “the Voice’s function of making representations will not fetter or impede the exercise of the existing powers of the Parliament”.

The solicitor-general says that the inclusion of “executive government” in the amendment “would not impose any obligations upon the Executive Government to follow representations of the Voice, or to consult with the Voice prior to developing any policy or making any decision. The text of proposed s 129 imposes no such requirements.”"

Supafreak Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 10:08am

I don’t believe anyone thinks a voice to parliament is going to magically solve the problems overnight . It’s a small step in the right direction that will firstly lift FNP spirits and restore some lost/ stolen dignity and self esteem. Paying respect where it’s due by including them in the decision making that directly effect them is saying something about us as a nation. It will unite not divide most Australians. Indo speaks of education and good jobs to pull them out of poverty because that’s all ya need ? Restoring those that are broken will take decades and many might not make it . Attitudes need to change for ALL Australians, this won’t happen overnight either, education is needed by many .

sameaswas Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 12:17pm

Supafreak wrote:
@sameaswas , maybe you can go and confront the 92 elders about what they’re up too ? Spud certainly doesn’t want to meet with them , he’s to busy getting the goss down at the local shops .

[ think your being facetious, i would ask them when were they elected and was it by secret ballot? or was it by a show of hands at a community meeting? if the latter is the case then that is NOT a democratic way, but hey we will never know cos this whole yes voice has been secret from day one, everyone i know only heard of it 4 mnths ago? but the yes propaganda media says 12yrs?? sure we all knew about uluru statement and 100% for it eg truth telling and docos etc but the voice? nah never heard it, read anything about it=state propaganda lies in my book.
whats your opinion on the commercialisation of dreamtime artworks by an art gallery? mass production for the sake of profit? sort of trivialises it, questions it's integrity? especially the white puppet masters organiseing it and what about the buyers who thought it was 100% legite? ppl like elton john, "thor" etc etc.
probly lookin at it thinkin crap! did that come from said art dealer? oh yes and i would ask the elders what was their commision if any and then run like hell! ha ha(last bit me being facetious)

Supafreak Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 12:47pm

Have you seen the made in China and Indonesian aboriginal artworks ? Not sure what your point is about art galleries and how it’s got anything to do with the voice. Seems you believe anyone that has anything to do with the voice are just a bunch of grifters trying to get their hands on free money . What do you find so scary about FNP having input into decisions that effect them .

Supafreak Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 1:33pm

Peta is almost single-handedly responsible for the rejection of the Abbott government. She, from within Sky, has a privileged voice and she has *not* had policies affecting her imposed on her without consultation. That's why Indigenous policies have failed - lack of consultation
— TruthSeeker (@VeritasEver) April 21, 2023

indo-dreaming Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 8:02pm

Supafreak wrote:
@indo , These things you speak of have been tried and failed before. Isn’t it time to switch tactics and have a voice to parliament on how to tackle the problems. The type of education they need for a start might not be what you have in mind . You thinking that you know what’s best for them is the problem .

Failed?...thats not true at all.

We know that indigenous people that have access to good education, employment and all other services, generally live exactly the same standard of life's to other Australian's, thats not failing

Because we are just all people and share way more in common than any differences and all have the same basic needs, aboriginal people arent some seperate species with different needs.

Im sure there is also many indigenous people that have moved from communities with issues and without these things to communities with these things and then actually improved their life's.

If you talking about failed assimilation policy from 60 to 80 years ago, i wasn't really suggesting assimilation policy especially forced assimilation just being realistic about human needs and how to close the gap. (education, employment, services)

There is also other ways you can encourage people to areas with better employment, education, etc for instance programs that support and reward those that want to make positive change and better their life's.

In regard tio switching tactics a voice to parliament concept isn't really new, there has been federal aboriginal advisory bodies before and none have worked either, there is also currently something like 50 Aboriginal advisory bodies none have changed much.

The only new concept is enshrining it in the constitution that doesn't make things magically work , it just means it can't be undone when fails to deliver, the only reason to put it in the constitution.

BTW, the idea that Indigenous people and communities aren't consulted is just garbage, they are consulted on all kinds of things.

Supafreak wrote:
I don’t believe anyone thinks a voice to parliament is going to magically solve the problems overnight . It’s a small step in the right direction that will firstly lift FNP spirits and restore some lost/ stolen dignity and self esteem. Paying respect where it’s due by including them in the decision making that directly effect them is saying something about us as a nation. It will unite not divide most Australians. Indo speaks of education and good jobs to pull them out of poverty because that’s all ya need ? Restoring those that are broken will take decades and many might not make it . Attitudes need to change for ALL Australians, this won’t happen overnight either, education is needed by many .

You are seriously in la la land, completely delusional

Supafreak Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 8:04pm

Stay on your side of history indo , it’s where you belong .

basesix Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 8:23pm

Most (l)iberal conservatives I know basically agree with what you have been saying in this forum Indo. They don't like the conversation, they believe all should be seen as equal. They think social inequality battles are important to fight, but singling out a race is not progress. But they are also proud Aussies and value our international standing, and are going to vote 'yes', because a 'no' result would be unthinkable and extremely embarrassing.

indo-dreaming Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 8:44pm

basesix wrote:
Most (l)iberal conservatives I know basically agree with what you have been saying in this forum Indo. They don't like the conversation, they believe all should be seen as equal. They think social inequality battles are important to fight, but singling out a race is not progress. But they are also proud Aussies and value our international standing, and are going to vote 'yes', because a 'no' result would be unthinkable and extremely embarrassing.

Thats kind of sad voting not on your beliefs of what is right, but on how you or your country will be perceived :(

indo-dreaming Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 8:54pm

Okay its Bolt im honestly not a fan either, but this interview is classic and provides an interesting insight into Lidia. (kinda sad too)

They say girls often date guys like their fathers, i guess that might be why Lidia is into Bikies, he has that look at least and clearly rough around the edges.

basesix Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 9:03pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
Thats kind of sad voting not on your beliefs of what is right, but on how you or your country will be perceived :(

mm. It is an interesting one. A begrudging vote 'yes'... I guess they feel they've said their piece, but ultimately these things will be looked back at, and if something's heading in a direction you don't like, you get on board with a sigh anyway. Maybe they have a great dislike for divisiveness.. i.e. you can't move forward when divided. I think maybe some curmudgeons did a similar thing with gay marriage.

AndyM Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 9:10pm

In other words, like Indo, deep down they know it's the right thing to do.

Jelly Flater Friday, 21 Apr 2023 at 9:24pm

Bang on ;)

Supafreak Saturday, 22 Apr 2023 at 6:50am

Here ya go indo , you can support poorlean and her party, take a swipe at lidia ( and her mental health issues ) and get behind the No campaign all at once . That’s more than 2 birds with one stone . https://shop.onenation.org.au/products/lidia-thorpe-4-pack-sticker-bundle

adam12 Saturday, 22 Apr 2023 at 7:02am

Indo says he's no fan of Bolt, but he watches his Sky News show, and then thinks it's necessary to platform him here to make some derogatory and irrelevant point about an Indigenous MP, and then passes judgement on her and FFS her father based on how he speaks and looks.
What is the point of doing this? Moral superiority? Racial superiority? To make people vote No?
Indo, you can't spell, you can barely string a coherent sentence together at times, you don't use capitals half the time, are we to make moral judgements on you too? What do you look like? Are you rough around the edges and therefore we consider it necessary to judge you too? What makes you so superior that you can judge people like that?
"They say girls often date guys like their fathers, i guess that might be why Lidia is into Bikies, he has that look at least and clearly rough around the edges."
She denies she ever 'dated" the bikie and even if she did, even if she was married to one, what the fuck does that have to do with the Voice and the discussion of it on these pages?
You say you are no fan of Bolt, I say bullshit, you consume his racist bullshit and re-post it on a surf website discussion of the Voice in a misguided, elitist. racist and pointless attempt to amplify the shit he spews and claim some sort of superiority, a common theme amongst self appointed "conservatives" like you and Bolt, a convicted racist, a drunkard employed to sow hate and division by Rupert Murdoch, an admitted liar. You find it insightful and "interesting", I don't, other than reinforcing the accusation I have previously made that you are the Andrew Bolt of Swellnet. You are entitled to your views on the Voice, like we all are, but grow up and stop the petty judgemental irrelevant point scoring from your high horse and if people want to see Bolt clips from Sky News they can watch them themselves, you don't have to platform them here.

Westofthelake Saturday, 22 Apr 2023 at 8:12am

Supafreak wrote:
Here ya go indo , you can support poorlean and her party, take a swipe at lidia ( and her mental health issues ) and get behind the No campaign all at once . That’s more than 2 birds with one stone . https://shop.onenation.org.au/products/lidia-thorpe-4-pack-sticker-bundle

oh geezuz someone's weeping...4 sticker pack for only $12!

sameaswas Saturday, 22 Apr 2023 at 8:51am

Supafreak wrote:
Have you seen the made in China and Indonesian aboriginal artworks ? Not sure what your point is about art galleries and how it’s got anything to do with the voice. Seems you believe anyone that has anything to do with the voice are just a bunch of grifters trying to get their hands on free money . What do you find so scary about FNP having input into decisions that effect them .

supa i think this voice is a scam, govt beauracrats creating another deptment so their children can jump on the govt gravy train...nepotism and cronyism, and have said so several times on sn.
there are allready numerous agencys to cater for welfare of fnp.
my sympathy is with homeless ppl, this is what should be top of agenda.
6 more months of this voice bs keeps the plebs distracted and divides us as this forum proves.
but hey the advertiseing agencys and media are reaping in millions of$$$ for churning out propaganda in print, digital tv etc, money that could help homeless ppl.
the art fraud has been ignored hushed up, it has trivialised the authenticity of fnp artworks and the voice proponents think it's ok, their silence confirms this.

indo-dreaming Saturday, 22 Apr 2023 at 8:57am

adam12 wrote:
Indo says he's no fan of Bolt, but he watches his Sky News show, and then thinks it's necessary to platform him here to make some derogatory and irrelevant point about an Indigenous MP, and then passes judgement on her and FFS her father based on how he speaks and looks.
What is the point of doing this? Moral superiority? Racial superiority? To make people vote No?
Indo, you can't spell, you can barely string a coherent sentence together at times, you don't use capitals half the time, are we to make moral judgements on you too? What do you look like? Are you rough around the edges and therefore we consider it necessary to judge you too? What makes you so superior that you can judge people like that?
"They say girls often date guys like their fathers, i guess that might be why Lidia is into Bikies, he has that look at least and clearly rough around the edges."
She denies she ever 'dated" the bikie and even if she did, even if she was married to one, what the fuck does that have to do with the Voice and the discussion of it on these pages?
You say you are no fan of Bolt, I say bullshit, you consume his racist bullshit and re-post it on a surf website discussion of the Voice in a misguided, elitist. racist and pointless attempt to amplify the shit he spews and claim some sort of superiority, a common theme amongst self appointed "conservatives" like you and Bolt, a convicted racist, a drunkard employed to sow hate and division by Rupert Murdoch, an admitted liar. You find it insightful and "interesting", I don't, other than reinforcing the accusation I have previously made that you are the Andrew Bolt of Swellnet. You are entitled to your views on the Voice, like we all are, but grow up and stop the petty judgemental irrelevant point scoring from your high horse and if people want to see Bolt clips from Sky News they can watch them themselves, you don't have to platform them here.

Dude you are clearly butt hurt by me challenging your BS of late, calm the farm.

Firstly If i was a Bolt fan i would just say nothing and post the video, but im not a fan i get why people don't like him he is a bit over the top and grating at times, just the question's he asked and how he asked them IMHO was a little disrespectful to me and her father could have taken offence but didnt seem to at all

If you want to know how i ended up on the Bolt video, its very simple.

I saw this article on social media https://www.news.com.au/national/politics/senator-lidia-thorpe-hits-back...

So i wanted to see the video to see exactly what was said, I did a search on YouTube which got me the video.

Obviously i shared the video because it was just released in the last few days and relevant to recent events as we have all seen the Lidia show play out over the last few months and we can all agree she has kind of lost the plot.

Personally i found the interview with her father super interesting, firstly that he doesn't agree with her at all and two because i can see where Lidia gets her rough around the edges aspect from.

In regard to her father firstly just judging from this video i actually liked him, he just came across as a super genuine, you can tell he isn't giving answers just to please bolt or diss Lidia to me he was super real, and despite the topic still some how respectful to his daughter,id have a beer with this bloke any day of the week

Being a father i honestly felt for him, obviously he loves his daughter who has become an activist at a vulnerable age and basically gone down some crazy rabbit hole, while we dont know exactly their personal issues, no dobout her crazy political activist views have divided them.

The flip side for her is i guess money wise she would have done very well, but money aint everything especially if getting it ruins relationships with close family, I mean imagine not being able to see your grand children, its super sad.

BTW. Just because i observed him being rough around the edges, doesnt at all mean im dissing him, my father worked in the SEC at Morwell open cut mine as did his father, i grew up in a very working class area, went to school in housing commission areas with friends from low social economic backgrounds, mates fathers in teens yearts were proper bikies, we use to go to crazy bikie parties as grommet's , and ive been mates and worked with some complete rough nuts, basically bogans, even guys that have been in and out of jail.

So suggesting im some elitist or judge people on social status oir education is silly especially coming from you, the guy that seems to do it all the time (dissing my grammar etc)

People are people good and bad people in all aspects of life, so im the last person to judge someone in that way

PS. cant be farked fixing up text mistakes, so deal today your just going to deal with it.

indo-dreaming Saturday, 22 Apr 2023 at 8:58am

AndyM wrote:
In other words, like Indo, deep down they know it's the right thing to do.

Clearly your projecting.

Because feep down im sure you know its wrong to give any group extra power or say based on race/ethnicity, because by definition its racism.

You and others justify you decision/position because you believe it will change the life's of disadvantaged indigenous people.

It's that simple.

indo-dreaming Saturday, 22 Apr 2023 at 9:10am

indo-dreaming Saturday, 22 Apr 2023 at 9:17am

Supafreak wrote:
Here ya go indo , you can support poorlean and her party, take a swipe at lidia ( and her mental health issues ) and get behind the No campaign all at once . That’s more than 2 birds with one stone . https://shop.onenation.org.au/products/lidia-thorpe-4-pack-sticker-bundle

Ha ha the things you come up with.

BTW. Mental health issues?

Thats kinds of a diss in itself, you obviously didnt watch her fathers interview, Im with him, i dont think she really has mental health issues as such, more just gone down some crazy rabbit holes and some terrible influence's and a very strong outspoken women and just that whole crazy look at me activist type mentality.

sypkan Saturday, 22 Apr 2023 at 11:09am

I think the most interesting thing about the lidia thorpe thingy, is that she literally speaks in linked sentences of cliched slogans with barely an unloaded word in between...

you know, bad man, bad whitey, bad colonists, oppresion, patriachy, blah blah blah...

then gets booted out of a strip club at 3 in morning

that, and what the security said... "very animated' but "not intoxicated'

hmmm

'mental health issues'

some now call it that...

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