The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Morning IB.
I’m reasonably serious, that group appear to have the underpinnings of white nationalists and Indo supports them.
As an aside, Indo’s been nailing his colours to the mast here for many years.
AndyM wrote:Indo, supporter of white nationalism.
Why am I not surprised.
Here we go again trying to paint me as some white nationalist when everything I believe in and practice in life completely goes against those ideals, why on earth if i was a white nationalist would i be married to a person of colour with mixed race kids???
You just talk complete nonsense, just endless insults about me or other groups
I havent even clicked the link so havent looked into this group, but where did the "White Nationalism" aspect come from?
I didn't see anything to suggest anything to do exclusively with so called white people?
Id be assuming that like the rest of Australia, the group and follower's are of all kinds of ethnic backgrounds and just proud Aussies, in my experience some of the proudest most patriotic Aussies ive met havent even been white, many people of various ethnic backgrounds are very patriotic because they know how great Australia is compared to countries they have come from.
While many white people like you dont appreciate how lucky we are to live in Australia, and have things like freedom,' 'security’ and ‘prosperity its just endless nonsense of how hard done by you are, because you have to live in a country with free markets and democracy and freedom of speech, just completely detached from how lucky you actually are and how other people live elsewhere in the world, you even crave the very things people flee from like Communism and Socialism.
Maybe its down to interpretation but even something like "western cultural heritage" can be interpreted in various ways, yeah while there is important aspects that have clear roots in aspects of Britain, i think Western culture is also about multiculturalism, arguably one of the most important aspects of Australia's history was the wave of immigrants during the 50s to 70s especially groups like Greeks & Italians, Chinese have always played a part or at least since the Gold rush times, then latter Vietnamese.
These days we have groups like Indians that make up 1.4% of the population, personally i think groups like Chinese or Indians are one of the most important groups in Australia they are groups that have very good culturally aspects in the sense of being high achievers from an education and income perspective and have a very strong culture of family values, low rate of divorce, low faithlessness rates and very lowly represented in prison systems.
BTW. Dont confuse Chinese people with the "Chinese Communist Party" two very different things, most Chinese Aussies would never want to live under the Chinese Communist Party.
BTW. That above should read "Low fatherless rates" not "Low faithlessness rates" damn auto spell thing.
Hey, you’re the one who said that group’s ideas sounded “very positive”.
What else am I supposed to infer from that?
At one stage I worked closely with Phil Garside the author of The Secrets to getting a job, recommended for those struggling with the process.
Anyway, Phil managed a CES office before Howard privatised the function. Phil had many 100s of firsthand hand accounts of people struggling to get a job. He’s basic premise is what he describes in his book as the “like ability factor” in other words people with better skills and/or experience are frequently overlooked in the job market for someone seen to fit in better with the boss or organisation. (He accurately said that this is why the entire front bench of the liberal party at the time were grey haired white men) … little has changed:)). Having established that the “like ability” was a constant in the job market he coached people to be more strategic in the application and interview process about how they present themselves, not to lie or be dishonest but to foresee tricky questions on interests, cultural background, beliefs etc etc and to be prepared for them so as to not make the interviewers nervous.
My respectful point, I hardly think @mrs info would, could or should refer to herself in the terms described above in her daily life outside the house nor the kids life can be a real bitch for those seen as different,so I’m a little confused as to why she is online here; presumably without her knowledge. @info is either brave or stupid risking an arse-whipping from hell.
blackers wrote:Had a look at the crew behind Waveman’s source above. FairAustralia, part of Advance. Their talking points sound eerily familiar. And with 75 000 Facebook likes, truly representative. Unlike those woke folks at getup with only 500 000+.
“The group's website says it was founded in 2018 to fight “woke politicians and elitist activist groups” that were “taking Aussies for a ride with their radical agenda”.
”
I went and checked these groups out.
Your argument that, just because this fair Australia page only has 7,500 likes while Get Up has 500K is pretty silly.
Firstly as you admit it seems to just be an off shot of Advance Australia, that has over 100K followers.
Not to mention Get Up was founded in 2005, Advance Australia in 2018, and this Fair Australia page only appears to have been created this year, any brand or group that got in on Facebook early have a huge first user advantage not only because they have 10 years plus of Facebook exposure but anyone that knows facebook, knows it's now very hard to get Facebook likes for a page unless you pay good money, and pages now get very poor exposure, this wasn't the case in the past, you use to be able to get very good exposure through pages without paying a cent.
Take someone like Pauline Hanson she has over 450K followers, cause she would have also got in early. for perspective Albo is the PM and he only has 350K followers.
So does that make her views more representative of Australian's than Albos? (not my argument)
Not to mention social media is more a young persons thing especially in the early years and the area of the brain that is rational doesn't mature until 25, hence why young people are more likely to be left leaning when young. (including me)
Hence why the old saying, 'If You Are Not a Liberal When You Are Young, You Have No Heart, and If You Are Not a Conservative When Old, You Have No Brain' is so true.
AndyM wrote:Hey, you’re the one who said that group’s ideas sounded “very positive”.
What else am I supposed to infer from that?
Its truely bizarre how you link the beliefs in blackers post from Fair Australia to "White nationalism "
You must truely go down some weird far left conspiracy worm holes.
Like i said i checked out the page and just from the last few days, the voice and views of three different Indigenous people have been shared.
Heres your White nationalist.
indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:Indo if you can't work out by now why so many of your comments have rubbed people up the wrong way, there's no hope.
I know why, because it challenges their beliefs, people dont like that especially when they have no proper counter argument's
It's also the reason why people like you throw around lame insults trying to discredit people instead of having proper debate, it's sadly seen not just here but in wider society and media.
A great example was the whole "Let women speak" womens right rally thing the other week, instead of a mature debate in media and wider society on why women's safes spaces are important, everything was just thrown under a label of transphobia.
Statistically in Australia the most dangerous place for any woman is her own home. It was you talking about public toilets and what not. So was it a woman’s safe spaces rally where domestic violence was high on the agenda? Is Posie Parker a speaker on domestic violence?
Indo, the group behind Fair Australia are called Advance Front and Centre.
On their site they spruik themselves as pro-military, pro-ANZAC, pro-Australia day etc.
Even the name has obvious military connotations.
So they have definite militaristic and nationalist tendencies.
Then they do some racial dog whistling around Muslims and Chinese.
Indo if you support this kind of ideology you're going to get tarred with a certain kind of brush.
Surely this must be obvious?
Johnny Farnham! A visionary for the voice??!! Who would've thought!
Onya Johnny.
Would love to hear a remix of this with the bagpipes and a didge. ;-)
If I ran this site you’d be banned immediately Southern Paul for your latest transgression
adam12 wrote:Waveman, the wording in the interviewers question "until the Voice had been heard" is key, "heard', so a decision that comes within the scope of the Voice, i.e. one that specifically involves indigenous Australians, taken without "hearing" the Voice could be challenged, because the Constitution will say those decisions or laws can't be made without "hearing" the Voice. It doesn't say that the Voice prevails, just that it must be heard. The power to make laws is still contained in s51 & 52 of the Constitution, which can only be exercised by the Australian Government and to be the government you have to win a majority of House of Reps seats in an election. The Voice will not co-govern, it will have the power to be heard in specific areas, and as I said, it can be accepted, modified or rejected by the government. If it is not "heard" in those specific areas then a decision or law can be challenged in the High Court because the Constitution says it should be. Capiche?
You missed the point. Interview concludes “Why would we restrict the voice to making representations that can’t be challenged in court?”
seeds wrote:If I ran this site you’d be banned immediately Southern Paul for your latest transgression
Glad i found your kryptonite Seeds.
I'm doubling down from this point on.
Fun fact. My mum saw little Johnnys first ever show at the Dandenong Town hall some time back in the...
Connected!
So you're saying that your mum was, umm, overly familiar with John Farnham and he's your dad?
Cool!
You’re Johnny’s love child?
Ps beat me to it AndyM
Hahahahaha!
blackers wrote:Had a look at the crew behind Waveman’s source above. FairAustralia, part of Advance. Their talking points sound eerily familiar. And with 75 000 Facebook likes, truly representative. Unlike those woke folks at getup with only 500 000+.
Its okay Indo you don't get it. You don't read properly and you selectively quote. We disagree on many things. Time to move on.
Andy M using words i never used...like 'overly'
Seeds jumping in with joy.
What a pair of fuckwits.
To actually go there.
There's online trolls, and then there's you two.
Ovary familiar then?
Disgusting. I'd never write that shit about someone online. What a couple of deadset fuckwits.
Crack another one Paul, she'll be right!
Completely disrespectul fellas.
Though it does explain your fantastic blond hair and divine singing voice!
Just remember, you can't bully me - I'm not gonna sit in silence, I'm not gonna live with fear :)
Thankyou Andy.
FINALLY, we're on the same page :-P
Just remember, Ooh, we're all someone's daughter
We're all someone's son
How long can we look at each other
Down the barrel of a gun?
The best thing about you Andy M and Seeds is you'll go out of your way to try to find a way to belittle me. Even bringing my mum into it in a completely derogatorive way.
You two jump on everything i say. You both have for a long time. Obviously you feel threatened by me.
A couple of online bullie boys. Wow. Who wouldn't be impressed!
Feel free to put your real names to your posts because you know who i am. I've made it clear for a long time.
Good for you for guarding your little safe space, though...swellnet. HA!
I do hope SN could see who the real antagonists on this site are.
I have no doubt in a toe to toe we'd know pretty quickly what's what here.
Pretty hard with anonymity. I've always given you the option.
Keep taking sniper shots....or...put your name to your posts and man up ya know.
Aloha.
Oh dear, not again.
Oh that was gold. Paul, you surely know I was simply joking about you posting a Johnny Farnham song. That’s it!
You certainly do spin a tale out of the most innocuous of comments. Big ups to AndyM the troll fuckwit!!
I had to double check the date today Andy M.
Thought it was April fools day.!!
While Indo and i have both expressed openly we don't agree with each other on this topic, and fark, he does my head in like i'm sure i do his on many of the topics discussed, it was hilarious watching him completely own you today.
With your flakey replies. hahaha.
Keep playing the man and driving the conversation way off track Andy M and Seeds.
A couple of SN icons in that regard.
Imagine swellnet without you!!
Heaven forbid. How would the conversation ever stay on track.
Fuck you’d be a riot at parties, what with that epic sense of humour you have.
This thread is about Indigenous suffering and belittlement...being treated less than humans...and you want to talk about parties?
Why are you even on this thread?
You’ve got the memory of a goldfish it must be all the grog you drink.
I was pulling up Indo on his usual racial indiscretions.
But of course my responses to him were “flakey” right?
As if you’ve got any idea.
Catch ya.
Yes catchya. .. run Andy M!
I would be very cautious labelling someone racist in this current environment.
Indo has his views. I don't agree with them. Don't think he's a racist at all. But there's you, calling someone a racist? With your flakey reasons (see todays posts). Geez, I've seen people banned for less. Much better posters than you too mind you! You actually add nothing.
To be honest, if these forums are about you and Seeds, 'dominating' i'd rather have nothing to do with them.
Enjoy lovebirds.
Waveman said "You missed the point. Interview concludes “Why would we restrict the voice to making representations that can’t be challenged in court?”
Firstly, it is a 30 second grab, not the complete interview. I don't know what was said in the rest of it, nor do you.
Secondly, whatever was said, by her or anyone else, the legislation presented to Parliament by the attorney general this past sitting week, and the detail provided by the government, outline the process exactly as I described. Read that and don't rely on cherry picked 30 second radio interview grabs from dubious partisan sources gleaned from the internet.
Thirdly, the sentence you quote is not inconsistent with the proposition I outlined, if a representation is not "heard", which is a formal process in specific areas related to Indigenous Australians, a decision or law can be challenged in the High Court.
Get it out of your head that the Voice does anything more than give the right to be heard.
AndyM wrote:Indo, the group behind Fair Australia are called Advance Front and Centre.
On their site they spruik themselves as pro-military, pro-ANZAC, pro-Australia day etc.
Even the name has obvious military connotations.
So they have definite militaristic and nationalist tendencies.
Then they do some racial dog whistling around Muslims and Chinese.
Indo if you support this kind of ideology you're going to get tarred with a certain kind of brush.Surely this must be obvious?
Ha ha dude its seriously crazy how you read into things or can paint things
soggydog wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:AndyM wrote:Indo if you can't work out by now why so many of your comments have rubbed people up the wrong way, there's no hope.
I know why, because it challenges their beliefs, people dont like that especially when they have no proper counter argument's
It's also the reason why people like you throw around lame insults trying to discredit people instead of having proper debate, it's sadly seen not just here but in wider society and media.
A great example was the whole "Let women speak" womens right rally thing the other week, instead of a mature debate in media and wider society on why women's safes spaces are important, everything was just thrown under a label of transphobia.
Statistically in Australia the most dangerous place for any woman is her own home. It was you talking about public toilets and what not. So was it a woman’s safe spaces rally where domestic violence was high on the agenda? Is Posie Parker a speaker on domestic violence?
Going off topic but.
No domestic violence is very different, domestic violence is violence in a private space like family home, its an important issue but a seperate issue covered widely and accepted as an issue by pretty much everyone.
This is a very different topic.
While there is an aspect of the threat of physical violence or sexual assault safe spaces dont just mean free from threat of violence.
Its about a biological women having the right to privacy, dignity, feeling comfortable, feeling safe, free from prying eyes, a women or girls right to know men are not in their space this should be a right for all women from young to old, we should all be able to agree on this and in the past society generally has.
For some women like a sexual abuse victim even just the sound of a males voice in a women's safe space could strike complete fear into their heart.
BTW the issue is not so much about suggesting trans women are dangerous or anything like that, much of the issue with letting men who claim to be women into women's safe spaces is that it gives all men unquestioned access to these spaces as its all about self identity and cant be challenged.
So a man with bad intentions be it just a perve or more now has more access to his prey (women and girls). He can enter the space unchallenged and remain in there for as long as he wants. It is up to women to figure out, after they are in an enclosed space with him, whether he is a good person or a bad one.
BTW. i dont think the conversation should end at womens safe spaces, i think its important to be able to talk about what is a women, its important to be able to criticise trans ideology or gender ideology and be able to discuss it freely and civily and not automatically be written off or silenced with slurs that end in phobic.
And it should be noted criticising or not accepting others ideologies, doesn't mean you hate the people who practice those ideologues or mean you have a phobia against them, it doesn't mean you dont respect them as humans or think they are lesser or mean that they shouldn't have rights or right to practice or believe what they want, the problem is when the beliefs they hold affect others or infringe on others rights, like say the right for women to have safe spaces, or the right of women to compete on a level playing field only against biological women .
The best way to understand this is if your not religious, im sure you agree that you should be free to criticise religious beliefs for example Christian ideology, and say i don't agree i don't believe this is true etc and your sure dont want it forced on you to share the belief.
And im sure you can also agree just because you dont share Christian beliefs, that doesn't mean you hate Christian's or feel a need to treat Christians badly, you may even have good friends or family who are Christians
So yeah kinda like that.
BTW. In regard to Posie Parker, i went back and listened to a Triggernomentry podcast with her and i think she pushes things a little hard, i don't agree with all her views/points, i dont think she really is the ideal representative of the movement, this women comes from a similar view point, but i think she is much more measured in how she explains things, moving a little away from just safe spaces though..
How many Aston electorate voters do you reckon would have been triggered enough by this fringe minuscule issue effecting a likely 0.000000001% of Australians to vote LNP last weekend?
Conversely, how many former LNP voters in Aston voted Labor because they are fed up with the LNP culture wars bullshit on fringe minuscule issues like this effecting a likely 0.000000001% of Australians?
The undeniable fact is unless the LNP returns to the centre right from the far right they will be electoral toast indefinitely
Indo, Grrrr> Don't really want to respond to you because firstly this is not an issue for this thread and secondly I don't want to appear to be picking on you or following you around these pages but this shit riles me so I am going to respond. Transgender "invasion of women's safe spaces" is a confected non issue imported here from the far right lunatic fringes of the internet and Republican idiots in the USA. It is designed to trigger people such as yourself into voting for the right in place of formulating sensible alternative policy and is part of the relentless culture warmongering that the lazy faux conservatives seem so enamored with. It is not an issue in Australia except in the minds of fools. There has been only one reported incident here as far as I can tell, a letter to the editor published in the Examiner in Tasmania that stated a transgender person was caught doing something in the girls change rooms of a
public pool. The owners of the pool immediately complained saying no such incident had occurred and that the story was bullshit which the police confirmed. An investigation resulted in the editor's resignation and guess what. he was a former LNP political operative who had previously been an advisor to none other than Katherine Deves, Scott Morrison's handpicked anti-trans candidate for Warringah who made a lot of noise but failed miserably at the last federal election. He resigned he said because he had not confirmed and couldn't find the author of the bullshit (probably because it was him), so had erred in publishing it. In truth he did it for partly the same reason you raise it here.
Posy Parker's tour of Australia and NZ was sponsored by CPAC and far right religious nutter Lyle Sheldon. It was a failed attempt to drum up hysteria about this non issue. She was widely condemned and drew far, far more people protesting against her, so many she failed to make a speech in Tasmania and in NZ had to abandon her appearance under police escort, cancel her tour and fled the country that day. There is plenty of footage available of her shambolic appearances online. She did draw support from the Neo Nazis in Melbourne which shows the type of person who backs the hateful shit she advocates.
Invading female spaces is a non issue here. No one cares, no one is threatened by it other than triggered victims of the fake, far right media trying to emulate far right Republicans and Tories.
Trans people are themselves often highly vulnerable individuals with suicide rates far higher than the general population who are highly attuned to avoiding situations where they may be harassed or challenged and I would suggest far more likely to avoid situations where they may be accused of "perving" as you put it. It is unfair, stupid and cruel of you and those like you to be advocating this nonsense, and for you to be infecting this thread or these pages with this crap in my opinion. Get down off your high horse, have some compassion and maturity and try a bit of love and understanding of your fellow humans who are dealing with highly sensitive, personal and vulnerable things in their lives. These are not matters for a public politically motivated display of hate mongering or fearmongering when there is nothing to fear. Australians don't care, it is an agenda that has failed. The reason why the right are so losing here at present is they persist with these confected culture war issues in place of making policy and finding solutions to the real problems that exist and people are sick of it. You should be smart enough not to get sucked in yourself. God forbid one of your own has gender issues that they have to deal with in their life.
Having said all that, yes there are predators and 'perverts' who do pose a threat to children, but I would highly doubt they would reassign themselves and go thru all that entails to commit their criminal behavior. Probably far easier and less risk to become a Scout master or teacher or sports coach or even a member of the clergy.
So please, this is a surfing website with open forums that discuss a lot of hot topics, and I am just a contributor like you, just let this shit play itself out elsewhere. That's all I wanted to say. Have a good Easter and hope you get some waves.
Indo,So given your own summary and the physical evidence the “Let Woman Speak”
Rally was a rally organised around transphobia with a little bit off Nazism to ice the cake.
I think numerous commenters have expressed to you before that these fringe issues are just dog whistling to distract the easily distracted from the issues that will really affect wider Australians every day lives. Posie Parker and her ilk is dealing in what if’s and unsubstantiated fears that create division. No rational solutions or discourse are being offered. A conversation about sport is something that’s sensible. A conversation about public toilets is not. And can be easily addressed.
It’s rabble rousing for the unintelligent.
As far a predatory behaviour of men is concerned. Homes, schools and sporting clubs/youth organisations are top billing.
These are the culture wars that are the legacy of Howard and Murdoch in Australia and only serve to distract. And the voice is going the same way.
Your post is a classic example of where we are at and for me this is the real problem, and i was honestly surprised how media painted these women and how LNP also reacted, i think they missed a very good opportunity to back women and call media out and call for a mature discussion, it would have been high risk but also high reward too, but they took the gutless avenue.
Like it or not its a very real issue one that has the potential to directly affect 50% of the population in some way, and will have to be dealt with moving forward and will be a greater issue moving forwards, especially when you add in the sport issue (already been talked about in surfing) and other issues like around prisons.
We have people (women at that) with real concerns, yet people like your or media, aren't willing to listen or have a mature debate and throw around silly made up words like transphobia a word designed only to shut down debate and discredit people, instead of having the conversation needed.
Or trying to paint them as Nazis obviously Nazi's weren't there to support women's safe spaces and more likely just there to clash with the pro trans activist.
Im crossing my fingers that Nazi's turn up at the next pro Palestine rally, then we can just label everyone who supports Palestine as Nazi's...cause thats how it sadly seems to work now.
In regard to Howard or culture wars, FFS i think we would dream of going back to that era where it was semi sane compared to now there was nothing back then that even compares to today in regard to being culture wars.
Id love to just go back and right my wrongs and vote for him.
As for Murdoch, their media was as bad possibly even worse than others they jumped on the the whole Transphobic angle, it was actually SBS that i saw calling them women's rights protestors.
In regard to " No rational solutions or discourse are being offered" ha ha how on earth would you know????
You clearly aren't listening to those with concerns, there is plenty of solution's, some very obvious, but its an area where you will never keep everyone happy.
Anyway we should get back on topic, kinda ruining the thread for people, and im sounding like Joe Rogan cause he seems to bring the topic up every podcast, i do love him though.
@Adam
Only just saw your post, but i dont even get how you can post what you have after, ive clearly explained in my first post what the issues are.
another ball through to the keeper
Indo... culture wars is the only reason IMHO yourself and others vote for the extreme religious right take that away and remaining is what?
Note all freedoms you experience today were won from action from left wing activists, scary …eh.
"Only just saw your post, but i dont even get how you can post what you have after, ive clearly explained in my first post what the issues are"
This will be my last comment on this. Women don't need men explaining what their issues are for them. They even have a noun for it..
Of course you fucking do you Silverado driving fuckhead
indo-dreaming wrote:im sounding like Joe Rogan cause he seems to bring the topic up every podcast, i do love him though.
I focus wrote:Indo... culture wars is the only reason IMHO yourself and others vote for the extreme religious right take that away and remaining is what?
Note all freedoms you experience today were won from action from left wing activists, scary …eh.
This take is so funny, seeing LNP in Victoria whom i voted for didn't even support this women and so gutless he went along with a click bait media viewpoint.
Just because you dont acknowledge an issue doesn't mean it doesn't exist, even Swellnet wrote an article recently on how the WSL is deciding on who can compete in women's division, WSL are doing this because it has become an issue in many sports, and we already have seen a man win a womens event in Australia.
Yeah sure i get that its not an important issue for many, nobody said it needs to be, i get that not many would vote for someone on this issue alone, but lots of politicians have one issue they focus on some parties one issue, they even call their parties names like legalize cannabis or animal justice parties etc
For me the REAL ISSUE is the demonisation of a view point, and acceptance of an ideology that should be a fringe view point, i mean the NZ prime minister yesterday, got asked by media what a women was and couldn't tell us, because he hadn't been briefed, we are just at a completely ridiculous point. (Video below)
He knows full well what a women is as we all do, but he is just shit scared of being canceled, because its somehow now viewed as being a negative to tell the truth and you will be labeled Transphobic and possibly canceled.
If he had been honest and said what a women is, it would be front page news and he would lose his job, shits just got completely insanely ridiculous.
THIS IS THE ISSUE.
Actually your freedom statements is complete BS, both sides of politics are responsible for freedoms, i mean even recently it was LNP who got same sex marriage passed.
Yeah sure activist and the left have played a role in certain freedoms, they also use to be against censorship, while it was the right who was pro censorship, but in the last decade we have seen a weird flip, where the left is against many freedoms and pro censorship (even a word for it cancel culture)
We saw this really peak during Covid while it wasn't a total left/right issue especially in Australia, more so in USA we did see a clear stance of the right being the ones, fighting for freedoms and the left the opposite.
Not to mention the biggest freedom we have is living in a democratic country with free markets, where anyone can make anything of their life and people do, the opposite of this is communism a left wing ideology that basically takes away all your freedoms.
We have also seen this with just freedom or speech and expression Elon even bought Twitter because he felt so passionate about it. (and went from hero of the left, to the lefts new devil overnight)
adam12 wrote:"Only just saw your post, but i dont even get how you can post what you have after, ive clearly explained in my first post what the issues are"
This will be my last comment on this. Women don't need men explaining what their issues are for them. They even have a noun for it..
This is the funniest most ironic post ever, the rally was called "LET WOMEN SPEAK", run by women and all women, a women politician was demonised for speaking, we are just discussing it here.
Like i said while i do have some concerns for my daughter, the real issue for me is the point we have reached and the fact, these women can be demonised by media and politician's and a discussion that should be had, is off limits to be had.
I think when you reach a point in society, where its up for debate or not know what a women is, then society is going down hill pretty fast, so for me its a real indicator of how screwed up society is heading.
Anyway no promise's but hopefully this is the last post on it, and one that made me laugh
News story from the last week
In Canada a trans women began dominated weight lifting and set a new world record.
The coach of other women weightlifters obviously felt pretty pissed off with the unfairness and ridiculousness of it all.
So he went in identified as a women and broke the weight lifting record by a crazy margin.
Screwing over the trans women's fame, but also making a mockery of it all.
Well said, Indo. (Your post with the NZ PM video.)
Regarding Chris Hipkins and his failure to say "Female adult human", it is worth nothing that NOT ONE SINGLE NZ mainstream media outlet has reported this. It has gone viral (not a fan of that term) internationally, but remains taboo here. Such is the extent of the madness of our media and times.
He could have just said "female adult human, but I acknowledge that some non-biological women identify as women, and we should not denigrate or dehumanise them for that reason", or something along those lines. That would have earned him my respect, and shown that he was "a man".
The whole topic is a complete mess. There's a difference between those who genuinely want to build a healthy, inclusive society where trans, women can realise their full potential and those who are using the topic as a tool to push their postmodernist and Marxist agendas. The same can be said for the other side which usually puts religion (and its lobby) at the forefront.
Thank goodness you’ve brought it back to the indigenous. Southern Paul will be pleased. How did it get onto trans issues?
Oh the. rich irony and gross hypocrisy of the right wing nutters concerned over women's safe places.
The very example trotted out here time and time again of trans men exposing themselves to girls in change rooms was what George Pell was doing back in the 1980s ....
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/jul/28/george-pell-expos...
https://www.9news.com.au/national/pell-exposed-himself-to-boys-in-1980s/...
https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/law-crime/2023/01/14/the-child-...
Did we hear from the far right of politics about George Pell's "indiscretions". Not a fucking word apart from high praise for him when he died. Abbott said he was "the greatest man he had ever known".
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28