The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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bluediamond started the topic in Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

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burleigh Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 3:52pm
seeds wrote:

Let’s do that Burls. By giving FNP a big fuck you last week! So many (shit) reasons for it. Yours? because of a grievance and no trust with the guvment over something in the past. Shit man, you sound like generations of blakfellas in this country with that story.

I voted yes.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 4:05pm
frog wrote:

Correction,,,, meant 20 points - big lead

Waleed Aly says it well:

"He wrote that while the Yes advocates always insisted it was a “simple, modest proposal” as a “referendum proposal, it wasn’t simple at all”.

“It required you to jump through plenty of hoops…” he continued.

These “hoops” included whether the proposal was a good idea, whether it should be a constitutional body and if it was “prudent to entrench a largely untried institution in this way rather than try it out first?”

Aly argued voters also had to contend with whether there would be any “unintended consequences” from the proposal.

He described each of these “hoops” as “big questions” that voters had to answer yes to if they wanted to land in the Yes camp.

By contrast, to vote No you only needed to disagree with one of those questions, he reasoned."

A self stated "chance of a generation" campaign with feet of clay of FNP leadership and Albo's own making.

Hmmm really good observation, Waleed is 100% on the money here.

Your post before this one was a good one too.

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basesix Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 4:36pm
goofyfoot wrote:

Jelly -
“ Imagine some cunt busted your door in, forced their way into your place, possibly put a rifle in ya face and just upped and left with ya kids. Just farkn stole them.
- imagine you never saw them again, and they never saw their family again.

Wonder what it was like for your kids as they got forced to a new home, were forced to dress and speak and believe in stuff that was, strangely enough, forced upon them…
- going to sleep in a foreign bed, in a place with other kids in the same bewildering, terrifying situation. Must’ve been on their ‘to do’ list right…”

A few years ago before I had kids these couple of paragraphs wouldn’t of made me think twice about them but since becoming a dad every time I’m reminded of this fucked up part of Australia’s history it honestly makes me feel sick.
I just can not begin to imagine what these people went through.
To think it happened in this amazing country is mind boggling.
How could people do this to another family

Ironically, goofy (and it helps to reconcile the disgustingness of it a little), a lot of the people that did this thought they were doing it for humanist/noble reasons. Australia at that time had half the people treating Aboriginal people like 'uncivilisable' animals (that would never learn to appreciate gsco's 'western pillars'), and half the country saying "give them a chance... they can learn to read, write, embrace Jesus, and quote from the '1066 and all that' timeline.." Result: a new form of tragic horror-show for the still-shell-shocked Indigenous people of this land.

Possibly the most ham-fisted, damaging and misplaced act of 'doing the right thing' in human history. Time to learn, grow, and not feel threatened by a socially evolving in Australia.

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tubeshooter Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 4:37pm

"You tell me, what sort of bloke come into someone else's backyard,
And say, 'All this belong to me'.
How you feel? Some stranger, you don't even know, come in your lounge room,
strangle the chooks, rape the television, kick over the barby,
stick up a flag next to the clothes line,
And say, 'All this belong to England.
Then goes out the garage, grab your Torana, drive down to Sydney Cove,
And say 'All that belong him too."

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Pop Down Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 5:09pm

At last half might have been "trying to do the right thing " .
Misplaced ? Why ?
This only happened here , I think .
Perhaps humans had learned a bit over time .
Not the normal way colonised people had been treated through history .
There is a lot more than half ( don't use the ref numbers ) trying to do the right thing now .

I think there is a time and a place to look at horrors of the past .

Would never tell a child about them .

As a father of girls , I have no problem with any enforcement officer , using any means necessary , to remove any child in Australia , if they are unsafe ( my definition will be different to others ) .

For any child , being unsafe is terrifying .
I believe FNP children are more unsafe than other Australian children .
It tears me apart .

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basesix Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 5:11pm

wow @ tubeshooter, interesting archive! White people pedaling gallows humour to get the message across in the 80s was ok.. Briggs now frowned upon.. food for thought. Good post.

@pop, unsafe from what? Historically? Or now? Or both? Doesn't the 'we'll save you from yourselves' edict ring a little hollow?

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Pop Down Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 5:11pm

Safe from harm .
Now .
I hope I'm wrong .

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basesix Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 5:24pm

No argument here. Deal with it all the time, mandatory reporting is heartbreaking, not an issue specifically relevant to this thread. Neglect and abuse knows no cultural, class or racial boundaries.

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indo-dreaming Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 5:26pm

More gold.

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Pop Down Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 5:55pm

6
Individuals have people( think politicians as well ) telling them "we will save you from yourselves" all the time .
When it comes to children safety and it's delivered with the right intensions it's okay imo
They can try anything !
My manager has told me that ( via email ) twice today .

6 Please look "UP:)"
U are right .
They , the people we employ to make these decisions .
There are lots of They's .
They can define anything .
I am desperate for Anything to start now .
Any why should this NOT be in this thread ?? Have a better suggestion ?

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basesix Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 6:05pm

oh, indo..
Hanson casting herself as the gin-sponsored-important-wise-matron figure.. deary me. Cute Bluey reference. The referendum money was money well spent, to my mind, to bring all these conversations to the fore, for all Aussies. Let's not let it all slide now.

@pop, I hear you, lots of us were desperate for Anything to start now. Before anything with emotion or social conscience is deflected as cultural marxism (i.e. there can be multiple sides to an argument exhibiting social conscience), mad mad mad mad world.

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Supafreak Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 5:35pm

Speaking of gold. IMG-5301

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basesix Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 5:42pm
Pop Down wrote:

6
Individuals have people( think politicians as well ) telling them "we will look after you from yourselves" all the time .
When it comes to children safety and it's delivered with the right intensions it's okay imo
They can try anything !

Again, no argument here, though I'd define the 'they' and rein in the 'anything', myself. Why's it in this thread, again?

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Pop Down Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 5:58pm

6 - just in. case U miss it , I replied to your interesting request , personal suggestion and silly question above .

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basesix Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 6:03pm

I added to my post above @pop. It wasn't a silly q, just a plea, we need those more, now that they are so easily batted away : )

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indo-dreaming Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 6:28pm
basesix wrote:

oh, indo..
Hanson casting herself as the gin-sponsored-important-wise-matron figure.. deary me. Cute Bluey reference. The referendum money was money well spent, to my mind, to bring all these conversations to the fore, for all Aussies. Let's not let it all slide now.

I dont think it was a total waste of money because i think its important for Australia to have a direct say in some issues like this.

But what i find frustrating is how so much money is spent for one question, surely for not that much more money we could have been given another seperate sheet of paper and been asked our thoughts on say changing Australia day or a federal Treaty, so we can either put these things to bed or move forward with them, instead every year we will get the whole Australia day debate and then regarding Treaty its kind of a bit blurry, if we say no to the voice the first step to Treaty does that mean Australians dont support a federal Treaty process?.

We dont know, but we could have found out.

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basesix Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 6:47pm

It's a fair point indo, but I have never seen Aussies try to get their head around the complexities of a local issue like this, and I am pleased it was this issue, and people found their own sub-issues and personal questions within it, and were actually TALKING about it.. It sent the online-OCD's into a hell of a scamper for a time ; )
...after covid, and before the middle east, this was our little local Aussie moment of crazy. no-one can take that away...

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indo-dreaming Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 6:49pm

We somehow got through it all without the thread being closed, so it was kind of a success in that way.

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flollo Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 7:02pm

@indo yes, good point. I wish they asked about the Australia Day. Honestly, the current date means nothing to me personally. I love the public holiday in January but other than that, I really don’t care about the first fleet’s arrival. I would vote to change it to something that can unite all our citizens.

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Pop Down Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 7:56pm

6
Perhaps that's the problem ?
U and too many others have never "seen Aussies get their heads around complex issues like this ".
I have .

We are smarter than too many on this thread give us credit for .
Give us a chance and we will show we are quite good at it .
Especially if a good conscious is required .

A proper Ref HAS to cover all bases .
Any vacuums and shit will fill it .

We ALL know the issue is complex !!!

I expected BOTH sides , YES and NO to be VERY prepared for a long campaign .
It is a big decision , they should be the easiest to make .
Australians will make their own decisions in the way they chose .
That is fantastic !
It's a free country .

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burleigh Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 7:54pm
Supafreak wrote:

Speaking of gold. IMG-5301

Supa the meme guy. Do better champ

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Supafreak Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 8:02pm

Better ? IMG-5293

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basesix Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 8:20pm

I don't disagree. What's the problem @pop? Who is 'we'?
I am not a conservative, but I am a traditionalist,
and respect others who are the same, from their particular background.
I agree with conservative points if they are reasoned, fair, and relevant.
But also am open to things that are stupid being addressed, even if messy.
I carry my cultural forebears with me in understandings,
just as I assume others do, which sometimes creates fervent discussion.
Looking outside of ourselves is the greatest freedom.
What's the beef?
(apologies, AndyM, for the last line)

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GuySmiley Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 8:15pm

G’day @supafreak, this approach has served me well over the years with lil buddy, hope you’re doing well btw,

IMG-1397
post picture

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southernraw Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 8:15pm

Great post earlier today @jellyflater.
Cheers

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Jelly Flater Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 8:40pm

This one’s worth another go ;)
- dunno why ppl get so butthurt about music or music vids etc…

https://m.

&pp=ygUSQWJvcmlnaW5hbCBoaXAgaG9w

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southernraw Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 8:49pm

Yeah love this one

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basesix Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 9:04pm

great track. I'd love people with a flo, message, and production like this to embrace the full limitations of the 808 - they got this. Strong, simple samples, but. Great adam12 post earlier ; )

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Jelly Flater Friday, 20 Oct 2023 at 9:49pm

…and this

https://m.

&pp=ygUSQWJvcmlnaW5hbCBoaXAgaG9w

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wax24 Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 6:40am
basesix wrote:

No argument here. Deal with it all the time, mandatory reporting is heartbreaking, not an issue specifically relevant to this thread. Neglect and abuse knows no cultural, class or racial boundaries.

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wax24 Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 6:40am

+1 Base and thanx for the flashlight.

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GuySmiley Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 9:07am

*

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Supafreak Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 12:57pm

The irony. With many Indigenous leaders declaring a week of silence to grieve last weekend's referendum result, Australian politics was largely reduced this week to what the Voice was supposed to address: White people yelling at each other while First Nations people were forced to watch from the sidelines. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/indigenous-leaders-week-silence-p...

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burleigh Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 1:22pm
Supafreak wrote:

The irony. With many Indigenous leaders declaring a week of silence to grieve last weekend's referendum result, Australian politics was largely reduced this week to what the Voice was supposed to address: White people yelling at each other while First Nations people were forced to watch from the sidelines. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/indigenous-leaders-week-silence-p...

Week of silence? stop it champ.

Even your mate Briggs flew himself to Japan.

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seeds Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 1:28pm

Haha Burls is following Briggs’ socials. He might just be starting to like his music.

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burleigh Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 1:30pm

Just calling supa out on his bias bullshit doom and gloom predictions.

I did like his music. But i notice again he's calling Australians racists on his story today.

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Supafreak Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 1:57pm

@burleigh , I find you to be more angry then Briggs , you seem to be angry at just about everything, anything and everyone. Cheer up mate and count your blessings .

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seeds Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 2:04pm

Burliegh
Well I think there might be a bigger element to that then we want to acknowledge. It’s easy to find some other excuse than look deep into your beliefs. Look at all the weird and wacky No arguments. Looked to me like the No camp was like a crazy discombobulated game of twister of excuses. With real beliefs. Crazy what we can convince ourselves of.
keep it simple stupid is the way I looked at it. (Like most things)
Cheers for voting yes. Like you said (in my mind) when push came to shove you
put all that aside

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GuySmiley Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 3:41pm

IMG-1398

as artists do :)

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Pop Down Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 4:32pm

We had a referendum and nothing has changed .
We have a big issue to sort out urgently , imho .
The people of Australia , I believe , want this sorted out properly , once a for all .

The governments have had their chances and have stuffed it up , again .
So , it's time to change things .
Someone else has to do the work .
We need a Group of 9 to do the hard work .
Royal Commission type powers , but on steroids .

Adam 12 ( seems like the sites Lawyer ) - any suggestions ?

Get all the Stakeholders in the 9 .

A Chairperson to have the final vote on ALL contentious and delicate decisions .
This person needs Clout !
Needs to have experience in most of the important issues affecting our FNP .
Someone we can trust .

Some possible suggestions for the 8 .
That terrible Senator woman who gets in trouble lying in front of things .
Mundine .
Rosie Batty
Finance - to Set up a $20B Future Fund with ALL mining royalties feeding it .
Sacred Site Expert
Building and Mining Expert to stop all the unnecessary bureaucracy and delays .

FNP can have all 9 positions , IF , the best person for the job .

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sypkan Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 5:04pm
burleigh wrote:
Supafreak wrote:

The irony. With many Indigenous leaders declaring a week of silence to grieve last weekend's referendum result, Australian politics was largely reduced this week to what the Voice was supposed to address: White people yelling at each other while First Nations people were forced to watch from the sidelines. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/indigenous-leaders-week-silence-p...

Week of silence? stop it champ.

Even your mate Briggs flew himself to Japan.

a bit like the snow white hillsong crew of political movements... GetUp...

acknowledge the call for a week of silence... and said... yeh nah

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sypkan Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 5:24pm
Pop Down wrote:

We had a referendum and nothing has changed .
We have a big issue to sort out urgently , imho .
The people of Australia , I believe , want this sorted out properly , once a for all .

The governments have had their chances and have stuffed it up , again .
So , it's time to change things .
Someone else has to do the work .
We need a Group of 9 to do the hard work .
Royal Commission type powers , but on steroids .

Adam 12 ( seems like the sites Lawyer ) - any suggestions ?

Get all the Stakeholders in the 9 .

A Chairperson to have the final vote on ALL contentious and delicate decisions .
This person needs Clout !
Needs to have experience in most of the important issues affecting our FNP .
Someone we can trust .

Some possible suggestions for the 8 .
That terrible Senator woman who gets in trouble lying in front of things .
Mundine .
Rosie Batty
Finance - to Set up a $20B Future Fund with ALL mining royalties feeding it .
Sacred Site Expert
Building and Mining Expert to stop all the unnecessary bureaucracy and delays .

FNP can have all 9 positions , IF , the best person for the job .

and that's why the referendum failed...

it offered nothing tangible for the electorate to support

just more same same... with another layer of bureauracy...

they needed to actually offer something like above

or, at a minimum, acknowledge what is not working... ie. 50+ NGO groups operating in wilcannia

it isn't popular amongst the blackfella establishment and their white knights...

but many blackfellas call for an inquiry into the land councils and the like. these are little hotbeds of corruption and the seeds of much violence

the NGO megacomplex also needs investigating, this isn't pointing the bone at blackfellas, but at all participants! ... and how it just is not working!

a massive multi million dollar rec. centre in alice springs... whilst there are people living on concrete slabs and without water...

makes no sense!

it ain't only jp and mundine saying this, but a heap of dissident blackfellas, who have had, and seen enough...

and as kos samaras pointed out, if the referendum had a class aspect to it, many more people could have seen it as a step in the right direction... but it was the exact opposite... big business, big banks, celebrities, and the aboriginal elite...

why was that?

why no talk of poverty and class issues?

hmmmmmm....

a massive own goal

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Pop Down Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 5:29pm

SYP

So many people have a Vested Interested in NOT having this issue sorted out .
I imagine how many pissed off lawyers and advocates ( from all sides ) there would be IF we could achieve , what NO other country , that I can think of , has achieved ( most never had the chance ) .

A true and proper reconciliation with our FNP brother and sisters .

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Pop Down Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 7:47pm

Listening to PBS , again .
Just heard the most beautiful song .
Had no idea who it was .
Was thinking the Voice could have used it .
"Marching " together , or something .
Texted into the presenter and said OMG ( and I am not religious ) as was so impressed ( twice that's happened today ) .

I had a huge smile when she said it was a name I was introduced to on this thread , only a few days ago .

Briggsy !!! Spinefex Gum playing at the Sydney Opera House .
Some Cat Empire ( love them ) input to , apparently .

Life is soooo interesting .

It was brilliant !

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Pop Down Saturday, 21 Oct 2023 at 8:20pm

Checked out Briggsy arguing the National Anthem issue .
Guessing other Australians , generally , will agree that his music is wonderful .

It is a bit negative to try smash the view that our country is not free .
Most Australians , probably , believe our legal system is impartial .
Pointing out incarceration rates makes them think that FNP commit more crimes , maybe ?
Not the way to successfully argue your case , imo . I stopped listening to him after that intro .

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southernraw Sunday, 22 Oct 2023 at 9:29am

I would say this would be the next logical step for mainland indigenous groups moving forward.
Would be interested in the thoughts of the crew who voted No if they support this form of autonomy?
I for one, obviously am 100 percent behind it.
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/the-point/article/torres-strait-islanders-wo...

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Pop Down Sunday, 22 Oct 2023 at 9:51am

s/r

U highlight a major issue .

DO FNP need different Laws than other Australians ?

I say they may need them in some specific cases , but can't HAVE them , so I say No !

U ?

If U say Yes , we need Adam12 to try and work out HOW . perhaps .

So U think Torres Straight Islanders should start their own country ?
Really , how will they fund it ?

Mainland ????
Oh My Stars !
How many new countries will be inside Oz ?
Funding ???

I think , IF , some Islands WANT to go it alone , Australians will agree .
Some will think it is a great way to get rid of a problem .
Not Tasmania , of course .

Funding for these countries will then come from China .

What could go wrong ?

indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming's picture
indo-dreaming Sunday, 22 Oct 2023 at 10:47am
southernraw wrote:

I would say this would be the next logical step for mainland indigenous groups moving forward.
Would be interested in the thoughts of the crew who voted No if they support this form of autonomy?
I for one, obviously am 100 percent behind it.
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/the-point/article/torres-strait-islanders-wo...

Depends what they mean by autonomy and sovereignty, being isolated with a population of only 4,5400 people, and their own council, its fair to expect they have control over most things

Id be betting that state and government funding is also much much higher than other areas of Australia.

Its fine to want more or total autonomy and sovereignty but if you want that you also need to take more responsibility financially and stand on your own feet, which then gets into the area of a seperate state or country as Pops touches out. (which isn't realistic or sustainable)

You cant have it both ways where you expect all this outside funding but also expect those providing the funding to just say here you are do what you want with it.

In regards to the article about it always being others coming in a starting small business, this isnt just a thing there, id expect it happens all around the world in more remote areas, i see this in Indonesia go out to the port towns of Mentawai or Telos for example its not locals who own all the business/shops its dominated by people who have moved there from the mainland from Padang and Medan, you can tell because they have very different facial bone structure and features and are often muslim or Chinese or just by the name of the shop or even food served etc.

Id expect it has to do with not just money but also mind set/culture and just understanding of business, practice & development and knowledge and connections to suppliers from outside the area.

Best way to tackle these types of things and get locals more involved in business is through education and development program's, the problem here is often the children do go off to further education outside of the region but they rarely come back they either get a taste of the new exciting outside world and dont want to give it up or met a partner from this outside world and settle down. or there is just much more opportunity in the outside world especially when educated.

southernraw's picture
southernraw's picture
southernraw Sunday, 22 Oct 2023 at 12:27pm

Yeah cheers for your feedback @indo and @popdown
@Popdown i'd imagine autonomy within existing mainland communities and cities could be reached without 'giving them their own country'.
Logistically, way beyond me to even try to explain the whats and hows but all i know is the current way isn't working out too well for alot of people in these places. I guess it's always going to come back to that same old chestnut...who's country is this legally? Or who rightfully belongs to this country and holds claims over it's management and their own social and economic structures(hint, legally it's probably the people who had the land stolen from them)?
And, legally, what rights do they have to self determination and how does that look? But you have to be willing to answer that first question honestly to move any further than that.
Would it be too far fetched and idealistic to imagine autonomy can be achieved with coexistence of both indigenous and non indigenous communities? It is 2023. We are living in an age of evolving technology and communication. We're capable of working through problems alot more effectively than in the past.
@indo, i posted something yonks ago about an island off the oz coast that was already going along this route of autonomy but i can't for the life of me find the link. I'd be interested to see how this 'experiment' has gone as it's probably been 3 years or so now.

Supafreak's picture
Supafreak's picture
Supafreak Sunday, 22 Oct 2023 at 12:40pm

https://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com/2023/10/22/peter-dutton-jacinta-pri... Peter Dutton, Jacinta Price and her mother Bess Price exposed conspiring to loot $million from Indigenous funding via a school grant
BY SHANE DOWLING ON OCTOBER 22, 2023