Climate Change
Bonza" small, safe, efficient that can utilise nuclear waste ".
Maybe you made a typo mistake ? The nuclear industry has been using the nuclear material from decommissioned war heads for decades . This is running out causing the U308 price to rise . We do have huge deposits of it in Australia .
Nuclear waste has to be put in underground storage . Could be a very lucrative industry if you can talk your greenie mates around . Good luck !
carpetman wrote:Too many items above to address them all.
Each country has their own particular circumstances but as I've said nuclear is cost prohibitive in Australia. No company is going to build it if it doesn't pay off.
Regardless, it's not required. Renewables currently supply around 50% of the required national market demand through the day. That is not a good day, that is an average day.
Check IDs link... https://www.nem-watch.info/widgets/reneweconomy/ right now we're doing over 50%
At night wind supplies approx. 20%.
With the amount of renewable projects forecast to come on board we should be at 100% renewable by 2030 in the electricity grid (thats before a nuclear plant can be design and constructed as well). Gas will play a roll for sure, and well into the future beyond 2030, but only to support the renewables, so I don't think referring to gas as a "transition fuel" is not the right terminology. The transition is already well underway.
Also, re comments on wind power. Offshore farms require wind speed as low as 10-15km/h. They are so good these days that they can effectively be referred to as providing base load.
Power generation is managed by commercial companies, not the fed gov, and they're choosing to do it via renewables because its cheaper. Which is exactly why Adani is a big solar producer - because it makes economical sense. And why France's percentage of nuclear is getting smaller each year.
The point of this rambling is that the tech is so good these days the transition will happen regardless of the fed governments position.
Hydrogen probably deserves another thread in itself.
not rambling carpetman. good post. I listened to a great interview with Ian Lowe the other week also very critical (as you would expect) of Generation 4 nuclear all on the economics. He's an expert Hutch so best steer clear.
I'm just sceptical we have enough drive to each emissions targets quick enough with out nuclear as part of the solution.
Bonza " I listened to a great interview with Ian Lowe the other week also very critical (as you would expect) of Generation 4 nuclear all on the economics. He's an expert Hutch so best steer clear."
Hard to understand what you write but to be clear I am a big fan of Gen 4 nuclear .
I had a quick check of Carpetmans link . It doesn't seem to confirm his comments . Wind does not make up anywhere near 20% of Australians energy . Not even 10% . These ugly bird killers are disgusting .
The figure's did no show day/night production so I am not sure where the 20% night figure comes from .
Solar does a good job during the day but , as most of us know , does not work at night when we get home and turn the lights on .
The French use of nuclear is decreasing but only by a tiny percentage . 72.3% of their energy came from nuclear in 2016 .
Gas will play a role as proved by the huge increase in Chinese plants . It produces CO2 so how do we get to Net Zero ( Carbon neutrality ) whatever that means ( I did look it up ) . Please explain !
Hutchy,
That's the electrical load and demand. It represents real time data. If you want to see what happens at night. Look at it then.
If you don't know how to read a demand graph you probably shouldn't be commenting on this issue.
Now, lets have a look at your savior, Nuclear power;
Frances Flamanville 3, 1,650MW reactor, began construction in 2007. Scheduled to finish in 2022. Cost 19 billion euro, or 30 billion AUD. $18,000/kW just in construction cost.
Compare that to PV around $1,000/kW
or onshore wind $1,600/kw
or coal ~$3-4,000/kW
or battery ~$2,000/kW
Carpetman I am not only having trouble with the Demand and Supply Graph you posted I am having trouble understanding you first sentence .
"That's the electrical load and demand. It represents real time data. If you want to see what happens at night. Look at it then."
I know what real time means . I know what supply means and this statement is wrong . "At night wind supplies approx. 20%." In WA Tassy and Vic wind provides an average around 20% of total power ( night ? ) but not in Australia .
I did look at the chart quickly and had no idea what Demand ( AEMO Operational ) and Demand ( The AEMO don't see ) means . Does "don't see " mean at night ( what about with a full moon ) haha .
Please enlighten me so I am allowed to comment on this issue .
Carpetman
For your information I have never said Australia should install nuclear energy . I agree with Bonza that it is very safe and it produces reliable (24/7) energy without producing CO2 .
I think Australia should concentrate on clean gas fired plants to produce electricity .
Hopefully you find these coal prices of interest .
Coaking coal ( steel production ) -$US 120 p/t Nov , $US 225 July now $135 ( China slowing steel production to clean up the air before Winter Olympics ) .
Thermal Coal ( electricity production ) -$US 65 p/t Nov now $US 178 . Gone up in a straight line and never been higher ( previous high was in Feb 2011 @ $US 131 p/t .)
"Overnight coal futures prices a hit record level and are almost +80% higher than a year ago, signalling a desperate need for China to increase domestic production in the short term, notwithstanding the government’s plan to reduce reliance on coal in the long term. As Reuters energy analyst John Kemp writes, "electricity consumption is surging and the country is struggling to import sufficient volumes of competitively priced spot LNG, boosting the need for coal for power generation."
"As Reuters notes, surging prices are an indication of the tension between the country’s surging electricity demand and the government’s stated aim to limit coal output and reduce it over time in favor of renewable energy sources."
No comment . Awaiting carpets explanation of Demand graph .
"Please enlighten me so I am allowed to comment on this issue ."
Haha Hutchy, hold right there, I will be back in a jiffy!
bonza wrote:if that is the case then its exciting. I am of the opinion that we cant realistically reduce our emission targets fast enough without such nuclear technology being a part of the solution. the political will is still not there. introducing gen 4 reactors - small, safe, efficient that can utilise nuclear waste can help bring to the table the dinosaurs and miscreants who have so effectively hampered our action on renewable energy and climate change mitigation.
maybe if we got our shit together 20 years ago on renewables it would not have been necessary - but they Fkd it for us.
I dont agree the narrative that Australia is behind the world in renewable energy really isn't correct.
As i mentioned per captia we lead the world in solar and 4th per captia for wind generation, the rates of uptake are also one of the fastest in the world.
Here is a very recent article
"Renewables could meet 100% demand in Australia at certain times of day by 2025, report says"
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/31/renewables-could-...
The thing is these things are tech driven so sometimes it's not a bad thing to wait for the tech to reach a certain level, 20 years ago a roof full of panels would cost so much more than today and would produce far less energy, when you have millions of rooftops the difference in energy produced would be fairly large.
15 years ago i lived on Fraser island they dont have mains electricity there so everyone has solar with batteries and a generator, those solar systems and especially the batteries we so so crap compared to now, they are ten times better now especially the batteries..
It's the same with electric cars the difference between an electric car 5 years ago to now is huge, they have got to a pretty good stage now especially how much KM you can get out of a charge etc, its only the high prices that are holding them back hopefully in the ext few years prices will come down a bit, im betting once the ball starts rolling the uptake will happen pretty quick.
We haven’t had a coherent energy policy in this country for nearly 15 years. Probably longer. This is due to politicking and vested interest influence. This continues. Over the last 18 months we have seen liberal governments - so called free marketers demanding intervention in markets by subsiding new coal plants.
Uncertainty in energy policy has restricted market innovation and progress in the renewable energy.
Who knows where would be if we had governments with spine (labour) and sense (greens)free from the tit of the mineral industry (libs/lab). I’d say a much better place than now.
Bonza- Labor lost the unlosable " Green Election " by getting smashed in Qld . The main issue was Labor pandering to the greens and trying to stop free markets and jobs . Read Coal (Adani ) .
The average Australian would like to see governments to take a much lower profile . They want to work hard and provide for their families .
97% of sensible Australians think the Greens are senseless .
The only seat they have a chance to win is inner city Melbourne . You could not get a more un Australian electorate . Labor are history ( can still win an election with preferences ) as they have abandoned their heart and soul , workers , to get the preferences of the greens .
Labor stalwarts like Martin Ferguson are furious . If Hawke was alive he would feel the same .
Gee Hutchy, did your summary come entirely from The Australian?
I thought us 'average Australians' were just lazy lay abouts who contribute nothing to the country and just leech off the 'hard work' of wealthier Australians like yourself.
Not from The Australian JQ . From a bloke who came from a working class family who had parents that worked very hard . Went to Mullum High and then to Uni to get a BEc .
Has always worked and ended up doing ok . Will continue to work as I want to continue to contribute to our wonderful country . I love the workers . They don't complain but like me they hate the winging leeches . They give everyone a fair go and can be relied upon when the going gets tough .
Reading that someone thinks that the Greens have sense explains so much to me . I would guess you do to . A party that in an election fought on green issues ( they themselves called it a Green Election ) went nowhere What they gained in the house (+.2% ) they lost more in the Senate ( -.25% ) . A big bunch of nasty losers like their leader Hanson-Young .
Hutch try reading my comment again. Actually ask a friend to interpret for you. Make sure it’s not the friend who doesn’t know how many mm are in a metre. Insert “Lack of”. Ok good chat
I like how your definition of 'workers' is nice and fuzzy, able to exclude or include anyone at a whim. Much like Scottys 'quiet Australians' - I imagine these two nebulous groups have a substantial, near 100% overlap.
See Hutchy, I too hate the whinging leeches, but the biggest leeches are at the top, sooking over how much tax they have to pay while extracting huge wealth from society.
Ultimately it is conservative fiscal policies (implemented by both Liberal and Labor govts) that have and are continuing to undermine the egalitarian society we once had a reasonable approximation of. This will eventually lead to some serious social problems if we continue on this path, just like it is right now for the US.
JQ A quick comment as I have things to do . My defininitions of workers was not meant to be nice and fuzzy . Not my style ! It is probably just like our PM's view of the quiet Australians . The discussion about taxes was caused by people , like you , saying the rich ( which I am not ) should pay more tax .
It was about the high tax rates causing the rich to employ experts to reduce their tax . Some now use all the loopholes like offshore tax havens and Foundations to pay hardly any tax eg Gates and Bono .
I am no blood sucking leech ( I hate mozzies as well ) .
I don't really want to get into politics here, but it should be noted we missed the bus on Nuclear in the 70-90s mostly because of the Green lobby & Greens and it would be a really handy carbon free energy source to support wind and solar right now at least until storage solutions were built up.
And if they had had their way we would certainly have much less Hydro or even none, you can see below hydro is a very handy carbon free energy source (just look at Tassie, it's the main reason they run on 100% carbon free energy 24/7)
"Sense" is not a word id associate with them, but each to their own.
Anyway i thought it would be interesting to see our energy use at various times during the day side by side, these are from yesterday other than the first one from this morning. (sunny windy day in Vic)
Black & brown=Coal
Red=Gas
Green=Wind
Yellow & Orange=Solar
Blue=Hyrdo
Pink=Battery storage
8:15am (today)
12:30pm yesterday
6:20pm yesterday
7:20pm yesterday
10:00pm yesterday
Bozo - I can get a decimal point wrong but I do try to spell correctly . It is Labor not Labour .
Perhaps you can answer ( it has been a few weeks since I asked the question) why we are still paying millions of dollars each year to remove sea slugs from our rivers in Vic . As you pointed out one of the main causes was dredging buy the gold mining industry . "The Tronoh dredge at Harrietville (1942-54) was one of the largest and last bucket dredges to operate in Victoria. "
It is nearly 70 years since the LAST dredge stopped . Is the millions we pay each year having ANY
effect ?
Please try and give a better answer ( one that makes sense ) than the one you gave me when I asked you to name one plant that would be negatively affected by a dam on the Mitchell River . Blue Gum was ridiculous ! You did give me a few fish species but as I pointed out they ( Murray Cod ) don't live in the Mitchell .
I don't chat on this site !
If anyone is interested the debate with Bonza started after he asked me how I could be against wind farms and pro a dam .
I asked him to name ONE species of plant ( not endangered ) that would be negatively impacted by the dam on the Mitchell River ( of course not just where the dam flooded ) and I would give him names of birds that are smashed ( he was agreeing with the word tangled ) by bloody wind mills .
I was going to name the Apex birds like Eagles and Albatross killed .
"Fifteen of the world's 22 albatross species are threatened with extinction, and six others are considered to be 'Near-threatened' by the World Conservation Union (IUCN). Two species – the waved and Tristan albatross – are critically endangered."
i am constantly impressed how stubbornly dumb you are. you r not interested in knowledge. you just want a fight. even when we have shared agreement on a topic - you wanna go in for the kill.
what a sad dumb strange man you are on the internet.. but funny. I'll give you that.
no one is interested.
If I wasn't interested in knowledge why would I repeatedly as you to answer my questions .
May I ask you another question ? Why don't you answer my question ? It is not funny that you avoid the subject and just abuse . We have NEVER agreed on ANY topic other than surfing is good .
Hutchy, are you sure you're not actually Tony Abbott?
"These ugly bird killers are disgusting"
I saw that Tony was dobbed in after going for a surf , having a coffee , chatting to a mate and not wearing a mask .
Thanks for the picture Westy . It proves my point to perfection ! Both are ugly but the hole in the ground can only be seen from the air . The ugly wind mills can be seen from miles away .
Hutchy 19 wrote:I saw that Tony was dobbed in after going for a surf , having a coffee , chatting to a mate and not wearing a mask .
Thanks for the picture Westy . It proves my point to perfection ! Both are ugly but the hole in the ground can only be seen from the air . The ugly wind mills can be seen from miles away .
What about if it wasn't a quarry but an oil refinery belching smoke, would that also "prove your point to perfection"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
"Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate". The term originated with a 2014 strip of the webcomic Wondermark by David Malki."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/sealioning-internet-trolling
"Sealioning is a harassment tactic by which a participant in a debate or online discussion pesters the other participant with disingenuous questions under the guise of sincerity, hoping to erode the patience or goodwill of the target to the point where they appear unreasonable. Often, sealioning involved asking for evidence for even basic claims. The term comes from a web comic depicting a sea lion engaging in such behavior."
Sealion = Troll,
Hutchy 19 = Sealion,
∴ Hutchy 19 = Troll
Thanks Thingo.
Glad other people noticed that frankly annoying trait, and also glad it's been labelled.
Sealion it is.
Awesome Thingo.. been looking for a moniker for that kinda behaviour for yonks. Got sick of referencing it as "pain the arse".
I used to like sealions. Great pinnipeds.
How to neuter a Sealion, amongst other things...
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/aug/18/how-to-handle-a-troll...
Sea lioning
Sea lioning is the process of killing with dogged kindness and manufactured ignorance by asking questions, then turning on the victim in an instant. “In this, the perpetrator endlessly nitpicks and relentlessly pursues the topic, but oh so very politely and, when the target finally gets annoyed and retaliates, the sea lion takes on the wronged victim of abuse role,” says Hardaker.
The solution is a simple one: just don’t engage with the troll in the first place. However, this can be difficult to do – a suspected sea lion may in fact just be a genuinely curious individual looking to learn more. So rather than ignoring them outright or devoting precious time to discussing the individual merits and drawbacks of a point with them, courteously directing them to a third-party resource – a couple of links to news stories about the matter at hand – can help nullify their attempts to derail your day.
What to say: “Here’s a peer-reviewed, academically rigorous link explaining all the information you need. Have a great day!” *Block*
Westofthelake wrote:Hutchy, are you sure you're not actually Tony Abbott?
"These ugly bird killers are disgusting"
What your not seeing in this photo is the spoils waste , I saw the spoils from Mt. Whaleback in Newman and couldn’t believe the size of it . Many old mines are never rehabbed, it is cheaper to simply renew the lease. When I worked in the Pilbara, on RDO me and another bloke would go check out the numerous abandoned mines in the area , it was amazing how much crap is left behind, just rusting away . Out of sight out of mind .
The sealion only sees what the sealion wants.
Hello Stu - I thought you may have been busy thinking about the recent High Court decision and not breaking your own Code of Conduct .
"No personal attacks against other users. Make your point without making things personal or insulting other people, even people who don't visit this website (see Point 1)."
"What about if it wasn't a quarry but an oil refinery belching smoke, would that also "prove your point to perfection"?
I am sorry that I have to answer such a stupid question but the answer is NO . You could also see the tower belching smoke from miles away .
As I have already suggested " maybe it is time for you to lead " by example .
No sealion, the point was perfectly clear to those with open minds: that wind turbines are an aesthetic triviality compared to old technology, and the bird-killing properties have been overstated. I mean, I'm sure you understand that but your sealion ways just wont allow you to acknowledge it.
The other thing you haven't acknowledged, you old sealion you, is that in regards to the High Court ruling individuals can be prosecuted too, and also, whether it be individual or organisation, the case is moot if the defendant is anonymous.
Wait till East coast offshore is dotted with rigs……yewww!
Even better when you learn they’re powering the Pool Egg’s wave pond.
COVID-19 vaxx rollout charging to 70% and beyond.
Any word on the development of a HUTCHY-19 vaxx? Exposure to the virus doesn't appear to result in immunity, or reduce spread. Need anti-bodies fast.
Why can no-one here answer this question? I want answers.
Peace Hutchy. You've got my seal of approval.
To be fair to Hutchy, the biggest opponent in Tasmania a few years ago to a very big wind farm(163 turbines) in Tassie's fairly remote NW was ironically Bob Brown, over concerns to birds and even the view???
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-07-25/bob-browns-opposition-to-wind-far...
Personally i dont have any issue with wind farms, better than solar as at least you can produce energy at night.
BTW. right now Australia is running on close to 50% renewable energy, TAS, Vic & NSW all over 50% QLD almost there, but WA is letting us down and on the gas pretty heavy today.
You are right Roker . Currently we need a new vax for every strain of Covid ( like the flu ) .
Sounds like you are happy to have lots of jabs to get rid of any other pests you don't like .
I quite like the Sealion tag . Apex predator , good swimmer ( I wish ) and not on the endangered list yet .
Although Stu might think differently .
Supafreak . Do you know the name of the mine ? By the look of it it looks like a gold/copper or nickel mine .
The waste/tailings are a problem . Luckily they are often in the middle of nowhere and are out of sight .
I do not mind wind farms in this location . Out of sight and away from the coastal birds .Wedgetails/hawks etc maybe live there though .
@hutchy , I don’t know the name of the mine in that photo, I didn’t post it, if you have a look at the dimensions of whaleback mine , you can imagine how much earth has been moved and dumped. Out of sight out of mind doesn’t cut it in my opinion. When you see first hand the environmental impact on wildlife , like wedge tail eagles staggering around after eating a poisoned rat , it is indeed saddening. Call me a hypocrite for working in such places , it was an educational 10 year experience . The Australian government looking at setting up dumping grounds for toxic waste is fcked . But who cares if you can’t see it eh
Supafreak - you did what you had to do and I have no problem with your views .
I would hate to see most animals killed by poison but some would be ok if it didn't kill other animals by getting into the food chain . Rats, mice ,cane toads , rabbits ,feral cats and dogs etc I don't care how we kill them .
I saw the movie Track recently ( enjoyed it ) and it was so sad to see the girls dog killed by poison .
I am happy that miners are now forced to repair the damage they cause . It can be impossible to fill a big hole sometimes . The Iron Ore is dug up ( usually very close to the surface ) and sent to China . What can you replace that with ?
We have dumping grounds all over Australia now . They are called tips . A lot of the waste like plastics are toxic . "But who cares if you can’t see it eh ". In the cities you can see and smell them .
I won't call you a hypocrite but I may call you a bit precious for getting so defensive .
I can understand peoples concerns over mining like run off into rivers or contamination to soils etc
But i never get this thing about being upset somehow about an actual hole, and it seems crazy that these days they are even making them fill them back in to revegetate back to how it was beforehand.
Wouldn't it make more sense to just revegetate the hole, even if you have to cover exposed coal seems (or whatever is being mined) with soil, in the long run its going to be a much better environment for animals than a flat baron landscape.
Or where possible turn then into lakes or dams, or even pumped hydro set ups, they do this type of stuff in other parts of the world.
Seems there has been proposals here.
"An Abandoned Australian Gold Mine Is Being Turned Into A Clean Power Producer"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/timtreadgold/2019/07/16/an-abandoned-austra...
"The Berejiklian government is investigating an ambitious plan to convert open-cut coal mine pits into a vast lake system the size of "multiple Sydney Harbours" to drought-proof parts of NSW.
Three pits in the Hunter Valley are ready to be turned into artificial lakes and, as more mining operations end over the next 10 to 20 years, more voids will become available"
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/multiple-sydney-harbours-plan-to-dro...
I saw a presentation by Genex who are converting the old Kidston Gold mine into a clean energy project . The numbers they presented were very impressive . Indo's first example .
The Townsville area need cheap electricity .
Humans are smart aren't they . Very good at turning a problem into a solution .
@indo , from what I’ve seen they don’t fill them in , they simply turn the pumps off and let the water rise . You wouldn’t want to drink that water . Surely you have flown over and looked down at all the pretty lakes ( Old mines ) with funny coloured water . Like I said it’s cheaper to renew the lease , no need to rehab the land .
Supafreak- That muppet meme was excellent. I know that feeling very well!
hahaha, well that was unexpected, and I don't know why but I had to watch it a few times...
https://nuclear.foe.org.au/waste-import/ Was this ever a good plan ?
.