cleaning up your act

Sorry convo's moved on a bit, but here's something I half wrote earlier....

He does have a point there zenman, a salient one you might say, if one is prone to academic wanker flowery language...

Salient because humans are apathetic beasts. Always tending towards routine and more of the same, 'suckling up' all sorts of minor nuisances and perceived unfairness whilst things seem okay. It'd be fair to say things don't seem okay atm across the globe for many people, hence our current tensions and darkness.

As brutus points out, that darkness is catalyst for change and our attention. Whilst the establishment desperately pushes for more of the same, more status quo.. more of their ideals ...non negotiable...

The solutions lie in that which unites us, the common good, the things that will benefit the majority into a prosperous future. It's fair to say people aren't feeling that like they did in say the 90s, or even the 70s.

I hate to harp on about it again, ...but I will, ...because that what we do on here...

but identity politics had a clear role through the above periods. To unite minorities and address disadvantage. Most of those evil honkey male types were willing to 'suck it up' through those periods, females too, for the common good. However, such a simple idea became the be all and end all, the default 'go to' for all available funds and attentions. This developed into it's own little 'industrial identity complex', all empowering, and all consuming, ....for a privelaged few - a select few from the minorities that is - leaving the no so privelaged - from the minorities and majorities well behind...

All this wasn't so bad in itself, but this little industrial identity complex (academia and media) just kept steam rolling on... breaking shit down, smaller and smaller, pontificating and postulating, identifying and dividing, until there was no common good left to be found...

just divisions and hatred....

When bob hawke died all the good comments about him came back to one thing, that he loved Australia, the Australian character, and loved Australians, all of them! If one buys into the contemporary indoctrination and dogma of the industrial identity complex, one cannot possibly do this. They must loathe 'white privelage', 'male privelage', and the working class culture that built this country. They must loathe the larrakin character that shaped our psyche. They must loathe the institutions that gave us stability and fairness. They must loathe our christian history that instilled a semblance of fairness and goodwill. And they must loathe all that isn't a part of their rainbow coalition. All the while fetishising the most racist, homophobic, unenlightened, non compromising, unegalitarian religion on the planet. Bizarre to say the least...

And a similar story has unfolded in the US and UK

Bob hawke couldn't happen in the current climate, his idealism is wrong, he's too ozzy, too larrakin, he's too genuine, and void of enough hate. Contemporary labor would reject him... too real for the nanny state professional career pollie world

The darkness is division. The darkness is fear and loathing. The darkness is fear of change to the order, and a willingness to look for new ways. All once the domains of the conservatives, have now become the standards for a new establishment, the new lefty elites...

The solutions are in finding common ground, finding the common good again, that which enriches all, not the privelaged few. From articles I've read, even aboriginal people, women, latino's, and black anericans are saying this ie. there's no equality without economic equality...

New alliances are forming everywhere in the biggest political realignment in a lifetime. and I reckon fracking is a prime example. In northern nsw redneck farmers came together with hippy farmers to fight the common enemy. Business owners and dole bludgers, conservative grandmothers and radical teens, surfers and tourism operators, all came together to fight the beast. Traditional enemies across a range of spectrums found a common goal and enemy and won. And where the fuck is labor on this issue? Pushing the business barrow...

hippys, business owners, cyber punks, farmers, atheists, chistians, doofers, muso's, new agers, old agers, all getting along for a common goal. This is our solution to overcome the darkness.

It's the same with power prices, and the general privatisation of everything - including education!, greens and national party voters coming together to fight the common enemy. But where's the fucken one eyed blindman?

...making excuses for the labor party, that's where he is...

major realignments going on, embrace it, find the common threads that unite us, there's no going back...

especially the way the contemporary left is dealing with it. with their standard MO of dismissals of all that doesn't feather their nests, and feed their ego's, it continues on, oiblivious to change

If they don't change they're done...

confined to the political wilderness for a generation

It appears they don't care, so fucking arrogant, or ignorant, it's hard to work out...

sorry brutus got a bit excited there, and off track, hope you find some answers though...

at the end of the day its about being positive towards each other, christian, muslim, black, white, atheist, hindu.

Ironically the diversity anti toxicity positive mindfulness peddlers seem to have lost that ability and are turning into miserable righteous fucks.

I'm actually pretty positive, I just see a rebalancing going on in this realignment... a new movement of the people...

a return to a somewhat natural equlillibrium, the status quo was too artificially inflated and suspended, high energy-ly supported by PC ness and blatant bullshit

we are just seeing the artificialness unravel, we've seen it on here, we're seeing it everywhere, we'll be fine, well some of us will...

some will go nuts

the reactionaries ironically enough. those resistant to change

resistant ....resistance ....haha ....where the fuck are they now?

"at the end of the day its about being positive towards each other,"

Pretty hard to reconcile that with your effort from the other day>. Are you going to give it a go?

“Aaah so are you cool with anti-semitism, racism, and neo-Nazis? Or is it just homophobia you want to make acceptable?” Laurie McGinness

“Nah I'm cool with all of it...
to a degree
It's called the 'battle of ideas’ ” Sypkan

read the rest blindman

you seem to have missed a key point

Once was enough. Explain why you think allowing racist and anti-Semitic hate speech will lead to people being positive to each other ....... or not. Your position is contradictory and hypocritical as well as toxic to sane social policy. It also shows total distegard for the welfare of significant groups in the community.

'hate speech'

wanker

A childish insult? Pretty much what I expected.

Sykan - Overt homophobia and racism are hate speech . Irrefutable.

But you’ve got to watch the insidious bracket creep aplied to the definitions of each term. That’s where the cowardly authoritarian types , who would stifle any opinions contrary to their own , are on the march.

Stay away from them. Like a brown snake on a football field , you can only play around them for so long till someone gets bitten.

The infantilism of the modern male

The further that humanity drifts from the natural order of things , the more that urbanisation removes mankind from the harsh realties of nature , a confected culture of how manhood should be expressed has developed.

Man has been bred through Millenia of trial and hardship to display the necessary stoicism and resilience necessary to combat the constant onslaught of a world which respects only strength.

Unfortunately, the modern deprivation of natural conditioning has permitted the decline in character which is now actively curated amongst urbanites.

Where males were formerly admired for their ability to tolerate extremes in climate , trials of endurance and personal fortitude , now males are told that it’s virtuous to be weak and fragile. Brittle egos are held proudly . The inability to withstand contrary thought or even the slightest sting of personal affront is now accepted amongst those who would expedite the demise of masculinity.

Obviously, this is a devolutionary step . One which nature will not condone.

From Koby Abberton shoplifting to Metrosexuals - this thread's got the lot!!!

Random observations about the meandering stream of political thought...

Identity politics served a purpose by giving minorities strength in numbers and rebalancing power structures. It's had wonderful successes here in Australia, such as the Freedom Ride that kicked off the 1967 referundum, and the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras, and in America with their Civil Rights movement. All victories achieved by Identity Politics.

Always, the goal was to restore the power balance, and ultimately it'd be a limited process: the creation of a society where everyone is on a level footing. When that society is achieved then all IP baggage can be discarded.

The current malaise revolves around the question of whether we've achieved that society.

There's an army of commenters who think we have, and all attempts to redress perecieved imbalances should now stop. Their anger revolves around the fact some groups still get preferential treatment, and it can boiled down to a single statement:

"When people get used to preferential treatment, equal treatment seems like discrimination."

On the other hand, some people think we've got a way to go to achieve that balanced society and they rail against the new commenters pushing for equality.

Freedom of speech gets thrust into the equation because hate speech generally (but not always) targets minorities. Traditionally, they've been the most vulnerable groups, and the least able to speak up

The weird imbalances occur when someone can say something against the dominant group (white, male, financially stable, Christian etc) but if they say the same thing against a minority they get reproached. The new commenters call that hypocrisy, while the Identity Politicians see it as necessary to create social equality.

A lot of right-minded people think we've already achieved a just society in Australia and can now lay down the tools that elevated the minorities - though the recent Adam Goodes affair, and the MeToo movement show that may be hasty.

Also, they should be aware that the rush to 'absolute equality for all' is being aided by interest groups who know it doesn't exist and don't wish for it to ever exist. Seeing free speech warriors team up with far right groups is to understand their cynicism.

A completely just society would be one who has no dominant group, and hence no minorities, is free of all racism institutionalised and otherwise, and there'd be a statistical spread of 'identities' across every demographic measure.

Not sure we're there yet...

There’s always going to be a dominant group. Humans are hierarchical.

In fact , a stable society depends on the hierarchy being undisputed. A lack of clear domination will be expresssed by conflict. Why do you think China and the USA are only just beginning to joust ?

Jeez Loz, you had the childish insult market cornered for a while there.

Remember this beauty?

'Smug self-righteous prats"

And who could ever forget this golden great -

"'cos that's what you are, a bunch of overgrown fucking adolescents."

It's just incredible how bent out of shape you get when someone questions your (at times highly questionable) opinions.

Out of interest, your outburst there was in response to the idea that exponential population growth will have serious adverse impacts on the environment.

Always appreciate your observations and I'm guessing about 100 years off Stu as far as being a 'completely just' society.

I think this guy below hits the nail on the cross regarding 'Religious freedom'

"There’s always going to be a dominant group. Humans are hierarchical."

I agree with this.

"In fact, a stable society depends on the hierarchy being undisputed."

And firmly disagree with this. 

sypkan , now ya talking , thanx , as you have made some great points and able to provide a deep train of thought...of course there will be those who cherry pick bits and twist them , " The darkness is division. The darkness is fear and loathing. The darkness is fear of change to the order, and a willingness to look for new ways. All once the domains of the conservatives, have now become the standards for a new establishment, the new lefty elites...

The solutions are in finding common ground, finding the common good again, that which enriches all, not the privelaged few. From articles I've read, even aboriginal people, women, latino's, and black anericans are saying this ie. there's no equality without economic equality...

if we recognize there is a darkness invading our personal/ family/cultural space , its important to find like minded people who can come together and be the active solution in fighting , which is usually ,uneducated headline reading people who do not understand or want to ....a generalization , but seems valid?
Equality is the goal , but the elite forces are at work to make sure this doesn't happen as they are the rich....1% of humans hold 50% of the worlds wealth , 5% control 80% of the worlds assets , and getting worse..........
It seems to me there is a fragmentation spiral in society , to the point where the 80% of us bottom dwellers are fighting over the remaining 20% ......there's a fantastic old saying..." united we stand , divided we fall !"

" Explain why you think allowing racist and anti-Semitic hate speech will lead to people being positive to each other ....... or not. Your position is contradictory and hypocritical as well as toxic to sane social policy. It also shows total distegard for the welfare of significant groups in the community.

Ok here's an example......a young girl calls an AFL indigenous player and ape , referring to his color and facial features....major headlines all the trollls come out to troll , LOL , .....hopefully people learnt something by the whole Adam Goodes affair , as racism was at the base of the booing , now 5 years later the doco has been made and is now used in schools etc , as an educational tool against racism , turning a negative into a positive.....was there suffering , angst, hate/love etc yeah , but we keep finding a common goal of decency and build on it!

" Explain why you think allowing racist and anti-Semitic hate speech will lead to people being positive to each other ....... or not. Your position is contradictory and hypocritical as well as toxic to sane social policy. It also shows total distegard for the welfare of significant groups in the community.

Ok here's an example......a young girl calls an AFL indigenous player and ape , referring to his color and facial features....major headlines all the trollls come out to troll , LOL , .....hopefully people learnt something by the whole Adam Goodes affair , as racism was at the base of the booing , now 5 years later the doco has been made and is now used in schools etc , as an educational tool against racism , turning a negative into a positive.....was there suffering , angst, hate/love etc yeah , but we keep finding a common goal of decency and build on it!

One of the constant themes across Australian and US discussions of inequality is the status of white, heterosexual, disability free, males who are genuinely doing it tough. The argument that they belong to the most priveleged group is no comfort to those individuals who have not had access to that privilege. On the other hand the argument that their status justifies removal of targeted support for more disadvantaged groups does not hold water. The old saying that the poor will always be with us is merely the abdication of responsibility by governments that have the resources, but lack the political will, to address the underlying issues; properly funded public education, industry planning for retrenched workers to be retrained, health care, welfare payments above the poverty line etc etc. Unfortunately the debate in both countries has been contaminated by those with the exact opposite agenda; to minimise all forms of government expenditure. Further, in both countries, these groups have used highly targeted propaganda to install governments favourable to their views. The motivation is not money, they already have that, it is power. The usual term for such political movements is fascism.

Andy, they were not childish insults. They were character assessments :)

The Adam Goodes thing and Izzy thing actually have a bit in common really.

Both issues are actually about "time and place" and knowing how to conduct yourself in different situations, knowing where to draw the line between work and personal life.

Adam got booed because he brought race issues onto the field, to be fair that initially wasnt his fault wth that girl incident...but the AFL should have pulled him up after the next game when he intentionally stirred the crowd up and had a word and told him to keep it off the field or he would be finned.

Izzy is similar but in a completely different manner because his views are shared completely out of the football space on his own private profile, if he had shared his views on field or when it was in the space of football, then yeah that would be an issue and the RA would have a right to get upset.

Where it does get hard is that above article where there is no clear line between work and private life.

brutus, your argument boils down to - hate speech is a good idea because sooner or later steps will be taken to prevent it. Nah!

"Adam got booed because he brought race issues onto the field, to be fair that initially wasnt his fault wth that girl incident...but the AFL should have pulled him up after the next game when he intentionally stirred the crowd up and had a word and told him to keep it off the field or he would be finned."

You make it out like the girl was the very first time he copped a racial slur. It's now clear he didn't bring race onto the field but the spectators did, and he finally stood up to them.

I say good on him.

or he would be finned

Like a Indonesian shark?

@ Stu "Random observations about the meandering stream of political thought..."

Stu that was pretty good you do write well, Cheers

ah lozza ,brutus, your argument boils down to - hate speech is a good idea because sooner or later steps will be taken to prevent it. Nah!
your words not mine...the meaning is when negatives come along , how do you turn them into positives....hate ,hmmm ......not prevent it, but kill it?

Indo, "Adam got booed because he brought race issues onto the field, to be fair that initially wasnt his fault wth that girl incident...but the AFL should have pulled him up after the next game when he intentionally stirred the crowd up and had a word and told him to keep it off the field or he would be finned."
So someone in the crowd yelled out racial abuse , how do we deal with that now....you are removed from the ground , lose your membership , and are banned from attending the footy for a period of time.....the next week Adam performed a Junior Indigenous AFL dance...people immediately condemmed him , insulted and booed all because some uneducated Aussies did not understand...now some of us do!

brutus, I think the AFL and Goodes handled things pretty well. My point is that we need to do our best to prevent such incidents before they occur. That means laws, regulations, education etc. By the time incidents happen, the damage has been done. This was in the context of sypkan suggesting that such laws be removed.

"You make it out like the girl was the very first time he copped a racial slur. It's now clear he didn't bring race onto the field but the spectators did, and he finally stood up to them."

Not at all, you clearly don't understand the point of my post, time and place, on field, off field, work, private life.

The reason people booed Adam after that incident was based on two things.

1. How he dealt with the incident with the girl.

2. How he clearly taunted the crowd with race based actions in games after the incident.

The first incident split people, i dont think he should be judged on that incident, it was a bad look from both parties, but after that incident the issue should have remained off the field, he had every right to talk about the issue off the field and do what he pleased, If this had been done the booing would have eased up.

The real problem was when he kept bringing the issue out on field and taunted the crowd from memory a few times.

I mean to do that and not expect the crowd to react is crazy, he made it about race, people weren't booing him based on race, people were booing him because of how he was acting and trying to make it about race when people just wanted to watch football, some of AFL's most loved players are indigenous and only a tiny percentage of the crowd would ever think of them as anything other than great football players.

IMHO the AFL and media had a big part to play and handled it all terribly, because the AFL didn't step in and give him a warning and then fine him if he continued.

And then the media tried to make him out as the victim and then latter it made it even worse getting Australian of the year which IMHO was a total disgrace seeing how unprofessional he was and how divisive he was, but end of the day i think the AFL are the ones to blame, he was acting on emotion, the AFL just acted unprofessionally letting it all happen.

I know what you are getting at Indo but I disagree. Any indigenous person, or anyone of any race for that matter, has the right to confront racism, anywhere, anytime. As a prominent, respected person it could be argued Goodes also had the responsibility to react.

The first incident yes.

But the problem was how he acted in games following.

The first incident was divisive and controversial just because of the age of the girl, if it had been an adult i think almost all people would have supported Adam including me, but it was confronting to watch because of her age.

1. Seeing a little girl act like that, with he parents allowing it.

2. Having an adult react to a little girl like that on TV.

Well as I said Indo I understand that view but don't accept it. In terms of his response in later games I think he gave crowds the chance to demonstrate their support for indigenous issues ........ and they totally failed.

ha ha...honestly tell me you're not serious.

Im not sure how anyone could expect a different reaction regardless of race, i mean let's remember half the stadium is already looking for a reason to boo the opposition.

boo them for bad play, flopping, not trying hard enough, bad sportsmanship- for sure.

boo them for the colour of their skin?

never.

Have you seen the Final Quarter Indo-Dreaming? I think you should.

Nah, but if it is on Netflix or Popcorn time i will watch it, id be very surprised if it would change my view point, i find it very hard to understand how people can view things differently.

Im actually a little surprised that there is a movie on it, to me i thought with the judgement of time he and others would have viewed things differently.

But im guessing not.

Indo have you ever been racially vilified?
Indo have you ever been racially vilified for a long period of time , like a decade?
Indo do you understand the ongoing pain/hurt and disrespect that is still shown to ...yes another minority group.....but indigenous Australians?
Indo when you talk about the girl who called Adam an Ape , did he know her age , he was worried about her well being in the 24 hrs after the incident , but this became a catalyst for change at Adams expense?
Indo do you know who Nikki Winmar is ?

I am trying to get a grip on whether its my personal experiences wit racism , or your lack of personal experiences , or a bit of both?

Sorry Brutus all that is irrelevant to what played out, right or wrong the start of booing of Adam came after the little girl incident, it divided people, i watched it yesterday on youtube and it still an uncomfortable watch.

It was something that happened very quickly and yes a reaction from Adam after im sure years of racial abuse, and like i said if it was an adult everything would have played out very very differently. (IMHO that should have been the end of it, the cameras shouldn't have even shown it or at least not her face)

Then the media and AFL made a complete mess of it all, Adam tried to do his best in the situation but really it didn't help, possible even made it worse. (her face should never have been shown on TV)

The boos on field really started and his reaction on field didn't help but only made things worse, although possibly the media were the ones that really put fuel on the fire. (latter getting Australian of the year, made things even worse)

If the little girl incident had never happened, and Adam had been a campaigner for anti racism off field he would not have been booed any more than any other AFL player that gets a few boo's from the opposition (generally because they are good players or can get frees AKA Selwood) even if he had called out some adult i dont think he would have got booed.

He could have even done that war dance thing and it wouldn't have mattered after-all it was the indigenous round, but the damage was done, people were divided.

Anyway the positive thing in all this Izzy thing is no body trying to use Izzys background in anyway IMHO this is a surprise and a very very good thing.

Intersting convo re. goodes, and good on you all for keeping it civil, even ........

I can see both sides of this argument, as I like to do...

Anyone who's lived in indo has experienced racism, racial villification is a stretch, but racism nonetheless. Its easy to ignore it when you're in a position of power (financial) - which is any bule (westerner) in indo. - but it becomes tedious nonetheless when you experience it everyday, everywhere you go.

However, you probably only would pick up on it if you have some indo language under your belt. And this is where ignorance is bliss....

The interesting thing about the goodes thing is comparing it to the new zealand experience, where the haka is a part of mainstream culture and seems to be celebrated at every public ceremony and event. With white kids even doing it in school. Contrast this with the australian experience, where aside from a bit of dance here and there, and the welcome to country ceremony, white ozzies are pretty ignorant to it all.

Now goodsies' little dance was apparently a war dance, much like the haka, however, it did appear particularly aggresive when he imitated throwing a spear into the crowd. Now I'm sure maori's have an equivelant dance, throwing spears or something like that, but choose not to do it in such situations. And I'm sure aboriginal people have an equivelant war dance to the haka that is not so in your face.

So from my perspective I think goodes made a bad decision doing that particular move in that particular situation. He also either miserably failed in reading the context of the situation, or was deliberately being inflammatory.

Personally I think the latter, and I say good on him if he wanted to pick that fight. But he must have known what the reaction would be, and should've been prepared for the fall out. I think the biggest problem is all the rest of australia assuming their cliche commensurate positions, as we do..., and battling it out to the bitter end, as we do....

This only divided people more, won no one over to the other side of the argument, and fuelled the good ol' culture wars that have been raging forever, and will probably continue to do so...

I think everyone has failed in reading the context of the situation, and as a result, everyone just bunkered down more in their tribal bunkers, as we do...

Now I think the situation has developed somewhat, and I'm encouraged by comnents from brutus, but I've gotta say, there must be a better way to deal with this shit....

"Then the media and AFL made a complete mess of it all, Adam tried to do his best in the situation but really it didn't help, possible even made it worse. (her face should never have been shown on TV)"

How do the afl fuck shit up so much?

Same with the media?

I can't work out if the media deliberately inflame situations (from both sides of politics) to make a story and product, or if they see themselves as so pious and right they must shove their opiniion down people's throats?

The afl do my head in, especially that fuckwit eddie mcguire, how can that fucker be so dumb and ignorant, yet so successful?

I've gotta be honest I don't really follow footy, and I find footyheads rather annoying, especially how they'll idolise aboriginal players but then seem to have questionable attitudes elsewhere...

This used to be the case moreso 20 - 30 years ago and has improved dramatically. But I can see a hangover of this thinking still evident throughout afl and rugby.

Culture is a slow moving tanker to turn I guess....

I guess issues that divide people and bring strong opinions create a lot of interest hence make media money.

I really believe the media were a huge factor in that issue, especially trying to paint the crowd as this or that basically saying anyone who boos is racist, it was either going to shut everyone up, or fire everyone up, and it did the latter.

Im not a huge footty head but i watch all my teams games on TV and i have to admit im a huge fan of indigenous players, sure you get plenty of great non indigenous players but there really seems to be a high number of indigenous players with this crazy x-factor.

IMHO It can only be a good thing though that they make up 10% of AFL players and kids idolise these guys..

Ha ha yes Eddies is unbelievable sometimes always puts his foot in it.

I still disagree Indo. I watched that video also and I think he did exactly the right thing. He heard the comment and pointed out the person responsible in a non-threatening manner as I imagine they have been told to do. Security then removed her. The second incident was during the AFL indigenous round when he celebrated a goal with an indigenous dance, which was completely appropriate. The response of the crowd was a reminder that Australia remains a deeply racist country that still has no treaty with its indigenous people and has elected another government that has no interest in dealing with the deep injustices imposed over the last 200 years: widespread massacres, refusal of citizenship, considered as "fauna" , total discrimination over the majority of our history in employment, housing, education and access to health services, the attempted destruction of a sophisticated, continent wide culture that had endured and managed the land sustainably for 60,000 years etc etc etc.
So I would urge you to think a bit more about this and how profoundly racism threatens indigenous people. To tolerate it is to risk the advances that have been made. i don't think you can expect that of any indigenous person, let along a high profile footballer in a code with explicit anti-racist policies.

"I really believe the media were a huge factor in that issue, especially trying to paint the crowd as this or that basically saying anyone who boos is racist, it was either going to shut everyone up, or fire everyone up, and it did the latter."

Yep.

I reckon the vast vast majority that were booing were not doing it from a racist perspective. It was the tribalism of team sports combined with mob mentality...

Read jim morrisons biography and how he used to play with mob mentality, manipulating the audience, often turning the doors concerts into a riot.

It's a dangerous game (playing with it) and all humans are prone to falling for it.

Saw a great docco on indo soccer violence that covered the same theme. Crazy shit those indo soccer crowds, and it showed a mob turn on one poor soul and beat the poor fucker to death. heavy shit

Ross kemp has done a similar docco on polish crowds, crazy shit, next level again....

relatively, we are all so lucky to live in oz, black, white, benchong, raving homosexual, so lucky...

media are dogs!

media of all colours and stripes...

@Laurie

Answer these questions honestly.

If it was an adult he had pointed out in the crowd, do you think the same situation would have unfolded in the coming weeks?

And do you think the crowds reaction to the war dance would have been the same in any other point of time?

Indo, people felt sorry for the girl and that is fair enough, it was a harsh lesson at 13, but what she did was appalling and had to be called out. To flip it a bit further what if one of the non-indigenous players had pointed her out for her comment on Goodes? My guess is that there would have been much less interest.
As far as the war dance goes, the crowd's reaction was shameful. Presumably they chose to display intense hostility to an indigenous person for calling out racism. As I said, the whole incident, from beginning to end, just demonstrates that this country is still deeply racist.

Indo , as you wouldn't or couldn't answer the questions I put to you ,re "your experiences with racial vilification " , It really makes me wonder do you really have a comprehension of the pain that can be caused?
Maybe you only see one side of the argument?

Sypkan mentioned NZ and the haka earlier and it's something I think of occasionally. It's place in NZ culture, that is.

We all know it's origins, yet the haka is now proudly done by all Kiwis, Maori and pakeha. For mine, it's a symbol of cultural co-operation, of joining forces and working towards the bigger project.

And yeah, I know there are some hardline Maori who oppose pakeha involvement but I also know they're well in the minority.

The haka, and other initiatives such as Maori language in NZ parliament, have been tools of co-operation by fostering pride in Indigenuous culture without excluding other cultural groups. Every New Zealander can be a part of it.

I know people will point out the differences, and the Sky News subscribers will endlessly dismiss it, but I think that style of cultual adoption is the model for advancement. White Australia isn't quite ready to adopt Indigenuous traditions into our own, but thinking how far we've come since 1967 gives hope.

Sypkan re your comment on Eddie Maguire....its rather ironic that Eddie called out Adam to play King Kong in Melb , Eddie brought the game into disrepute , more racist comments ....he still works in the industry and Adam was driven out....go figure which one is white??
I seem always to bring up racism , as 1/2 my life I have had to personally deal a lot more than we have mentioned here......but as previously said , the darkness must be exposed and dealt with.....so far so good we are all talking to each other now with respect.....we might have had a win here on SN.....???

Shit Stu , I am a subscriber to Sky and Fox news ......??

Luckily no-one knows who you are!

Let's hope so brutus! Stu, I agree that there is hope but given we have had over 50 years since the referendum, most of them prosperous, our achievements in reconciliation and closing the gap are extremely modest.