cleaning up your act

@Brutus

There is only one part of the issue that is related to racial vilification and that was the comment from the little girl, who may or may not of understood the implications of what she was saying, either way it should never have been said and is still racism, (and the parents are the real ones to blame) i agree she should have been dealt with, it was just unfortunate situation in how it looked a grown man pointing a young girl out and then the media blowing it all up and this girls face plastered all across the media..

After that the crowds reaction(or at-least majority) to that incident wasn't about race (but i don't expect you or others to agree)

After that point there is actually a strange irony in that if the crowd was to think, oh shit we cant boo him because we might be perceived as being racist, that in itself is a form of mild racism because they would not be treating the person as they otherwise would if they were of a different ethics background or skin colour, the ideal situation is no matter skin colour or race, people should react the same, ideally we get to a point where we don't even notice skin colour...i think children are often good at this.

Ive noticed my daughter when trying to explain about some boy at school doesn't say the boy with dark skin, she says the boy with black hair.

I have a European ancestry so obviously have only experienced extremely mild effects of racism, like the very odd stranger in Indonesia that has started abusing me just because im a bule (light skinned foreigner)

I have seen my Indonesian wife experience stronger degrees of racism but still only mild compared to many.

One effect i have noticed with her though is, if she does experience some negativity from somebody she will assume it is because she is Asian.

When in reality we all come across people in life that are rude, have attitudes, treat us bad etc

But to be fair i cant really say to her that person isn't treating her like that because she is Asian they are only treating her like that because they are an arsehole.

Because i dont know, maybe that person is treating her bad because she is Asian, there has been case's though were we have both had no choice to get to know that person, and well they are just rude pricks that treat everyone bad.

BTW. You have an indigenous ancestry yeah....do you feel like things are getting better?...do you come across racism against you as much as you previously have say 20 or 30 years ago?

Stu I am wondering about chanding my ID to snarkboy...that'll work....love my sky news and Fox " keep your friends close and your enemies closer !"

@Brutus

You have an indigenous ancestry yeah....do you feel like things are getting better?...

Do you come across racism these days as much as you did previously say 20 or 30 years ago?

Totally agree stunet re. ways forward. The only way it seems

But I will point out the differences (there's always some fucken smartarse). Our history and our indigenous people are very different to new zealand. Maori's are basically pacific islanders, with a very similar culture to pacific islanders.

Our indigenous people have a very different, very unique culture, which should be reason enough for preserving it...

But I agree it's a good model to move forward. Unfortunatly there is much resistance from australians, both black and white, which is a hangover from our different history, and our indigenous people's very different culture

Plus we are way slow just getting into the starting blocks, nevermind getting out of them....

"I seem always to bring up racism , as 1/2 my life I have had to personally deal a lot more than we have mentioned here......but as previously said , the darkness must be exposed and dealt with.....so far so good we are all talking to each other now with respect.....we might have had a win here on SN.....???"

I think it's fair enough you do brutus.

I'm just tired of overpayed honkey's over egging the pudding, and telling me how to think. generally with symbolisn rather than solutions. symbolism that often makes it harder to break down the barriers that need to be broken. symbolism that keeps us in our boxes. It's just not healthy, we need to live together

You feel free egg it up if you wish...

I'll listen to you. But it's best for all if we can keep it moderate, which you are doing a stellar job of right now...

Australia's leading philosopher on Izzy, Hell and Free Speech
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rugby-australia-israel-fola...

Wow!

Finally some reasonable rational analysis from the machine...

I've always liked peter singer

OT: thank you to everyone for bringing the conversation back to a much more civil environment.

FWIW, whilst I personally don’t agree with the content of many posts, I value the opportunity to read, and learn, what everyone else thinks. 

Yep good well balanced sensible article.

he basically copied your meme indod

peter the plageriser?

its always nice though when some academic wanker puts into many words what a normal person can say with a few

Not sure if its still the case back in the early 80's surfing the Bluff etc used to hang out with a lot of indigenous and their families there was a profound sense of shame of being indigenous something most here wouldn't understand.

I’ve spent a fair amount of time with blackfellas from all over the Gascoyne , Pilbara , Kimberly, Great Southern and never felt a hint of that.

Nothing but pride.

No chest beating necessary.

Maybe if they got booed publicly by thousands every week for nearly 2 years they would think about chest beating a bit hey?

I wasn’t referring to some football player.

I was referring to the fact that they’re just people going about their business. Sometimes softly spoken , sometimes not . But they get their pride across without ever discussing it.

I know little about the Goodes deal and I don’t really care. Doesn’t seem like I’m missing much of a good time.

Funny how when you let people just get on with their business they tend to do just that. Noone wants to get vocal just for the sake of it.

Just responding to i focus’s post.

I don’t feel the need to chest beat either.

Though I do usually surf in below the knee Aussie flag boardshorts and a long sleeve rashie with a boxing kangaroo on the front .

Blowing depended on the groups there was a wide spread of of different groups / clans / families it was really complex.
An example the indigenous that worked were often called white by groups that didn't then there was the mob who went down to Teades (roo shooter)and brought their purple dyed roo tail or the families from out side the region, it was a conversation I had a few times.
As you say there was pride but scratch the surface and there were much deeper wounds.
I watched the Adam Goodes thing unfold through this lens with the whites booing him and just thought "you fucken ignorant morons".

Indo , interesting to hear that your wife thinks she's being racially vilified and I am sure it's real for her...I have seen surfers over here tell the chinks to fuck off back to where they come from....
Sorry when I asked you the "personal experience with racism questions ," I should have specified re'Australain Indigenous people as I think there is a guilt factor towards Indigenous Australian's and how they have been treated and are still being treated.
This guilt manifests itself as racism and putting a people down is part of you how make yourself feel superior , or you just dismiss the issue at hand as just somebody else's interpretation .......
What I witnessed during the Adam Goodes saga , made me sick to my stomach , as there were team captains begging their supporters to stop as their boos were being taken as an expression of racism by Adam...the boo's increased , drove Adam out of the game , left a dark stain on Australia's reputation .....the good news is next Thursday nite channel 10, in Vicco are screening Adams film , how about we both watch it and get back to each other , or maybe create a post and see if we can discuss the possible ramifications , positive and negative and see what we learn?
your question about have things got better in the last 20-30 years.....? Well in one sense yes as there is a more understanding of the issues , looks like we are making a real effort at understanding the history of failures that have delivered the current situation....but there is also a human cost when people like Adam step forward , his personal pain and others who try and confront the issues also open u old wounds , so instead of just burying the issue deep in their sub conscious........they reopen the wounds , exposing themselves to further pain and misery...now I call that courage!

Lozza...wow is an understatment..."Australia's leading philosopher on Izzy, Hell and Free Speech
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/rugby-australia-israel-fola..."

when you put away the media/haters of Izzy and look at it from an Atheist 's point of view , and a non emotional one ...I think Singers logic , which might end up being the courts view also .....paints a picture of 2 belief systems respecting each other , even if they are at odds on the content , there is still respect and conversation can be started to discuss the issue...no malice on behalf of Izzy ...but damn he's copped a fair bit!

brutus to be honest I think he deserves it. He has every legal right to express his belief but we all have rights which we choose not to exercise out of consideration for the well being of others ....... or our own. One thing to remember is that probably the strongest risk factor for youth suicide is being LGBTI. Izzy's post was potentially a trigger factor for suicide, self-harm or the lowering of self-worth which precedes those events. Given his high profile and the respect from young people that has generated, his Facebook post was, at best, irresponsible and at worst an active attack on some of the most vulnerable people in our community. Having said that, I hope he wins the case. Employers should not be able to restrict the free speech (hopefully) allowed to their employees under law.

Interesting article in the SMH on a somewhat parallel case in the UK...
https://www.smh.com.au/national/folau-s-prospects-bolstered-by-landmark-...

It's an interesting comparison Pops. Given its importance Izzy's case is likely to end up in the High Court. Being wise after the event I wonder if RA might have handled things differently. I think a good mediator might have been able to find some middle ground.

Hopefully it’ll be the start of pushback against profit driven corporate morality and their creeping imposition into the lives of employees.

You’d be hard pressed to find a more graphic example of the latter than the towns surrounding remote mines and private infrastructure. The company’s believe they don’t just lease the tenement, but the surrounding jurisdiction and the souls residing there.

Blowin, although it's a slightly different thing, it's interesting to compare your thought to what's been talked about over on The Good News Thread - seems like on a broad cultural level people are becoming extremely keen to sell themselves body and soul for both money and also social kudos.
I don't see it changing though I really hope it's just a trend.

"Hopefully it’ll be the start of pushback against profit driven corporate morality and their creeping imposition into the lives of employees."

Rainbows and unicorns as well?

The TTP that is being negotiated will put an end to any thoughts of a pushback on corporate greed Blowin. The Australian government won't have any rights let alone the employees

Andy - In my travels I’ve met and befriended a few Insta Influencers.

At least half of them wind up having a Blinding Moment of Clarity , whereby they realise that they’re not enjoying it at all and subsequently go the entirely other way , basically giving the whole Instagram deal a wide berth.

It blows you away watching these crew in action when they’re caught up in it. Having to plan and curate every activity. Even every meal ! Refusing to go anywhere not worthy of envy. They don’t leave much for themselves. Seems to wear them down,

Unblocking shitters on minimum wage somewhere will wear you down just as much , but at least you get to knock off at the end of the day . Then you can walk around with your gunt hanging over the front of your piss stained trackies down the shops without spoiling the image which pays the bills.

Agree Fliplid , I can’t see it getting better anytime soon, unfortunately.

Speaking of cleaning up your act,

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/vbj7xb/theres-an-entire-instagram-acc...

and here's the insta:

https://www.instagram.com/birdgraveyard/?hl=en

It appears corporations just spammed a heap of ride share scooters all over southern California's waterfront. They are surprised when people torch, ghostie, pile up, bin and generally trash the things.

velocityjohnno unearths a new problem.
E Scooter joins brothers Trolley & Hire Bike- climbing trees & swimming in creeks.
E Scooters are more nasty because their batteries leach...killing all marine habitat.

Lime held Gold Coast to ransom saying they owned our town..."Fuck off yanks!"
Dumbasses heavied the next loser Town... Brisbane..."We'll farken have'm!"

Here's why!
City council limit 1,000 scooters max! (Popular! All get hired...best response yet!)
Qld Transport rego $570/yr per scooter = $570,000 + ($5,000 up front license)
Qld Police, book- 70/day x $150 min = $550,000/yr (helmet shortage = Easy $)

Hospital = 40/mth...Injuries to Heads & Toes.
US has Concrete Canyons vs Bne has Tree-seeds & pods on pavers. eg:(faceplants)
OZ Lime scooter's front wheels lock up wiping the smiles off rider's faces.
Wheels spin up OZ shit to jam wheel against guards. (Dangerous in leafy burbs)
If your city leaders need a quick $Million & more patients then you're town is next.

Just ask the local critters how popular they are...if you can find one!

Lozza , I think the whole Izzy affect on young gay people has, is so overstated , as even a post on here shows that he helped gay rugby players , and even became a mentor to some of the gay rugby players....so I see no hurt or malice...Izzy has not once shown homophobic behaviour...he posts a quote from the bible , offering a solution .........how about all the Christian Kids who now wonder should they play rugby. when you read https://www.theage.com.au/national/folau-s-prospects-bolstered-by-landma................
when you apply The English law of logic......"“The university wrongly confused the expression of religious views with the notion of discrimination. The mere expression of views on theological grounds (e.g. that "homosexuality is a sin") does not necessarily connote that the person expressing such views will discriminate on such grounds.”
"This was about a failure of common sense. At the outset of the matter in 2014, the university had overreached and overreacted. It effectively purported to restrict Ngole from expressing his religious views in any public forum. The implication was that a professional should only express controversial religious views in absolute privacy.

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The court rightly pointed out that, if correct, no Christian would be secure in any profession, let alone Muslims, Hindus or Buddhists. Further, Ngole’s expulsion was disproportionate, given that the posts were expressions of religious and moral views that were based on the Bible.

This an interesting legal opinion , but really what has Izzy done in his life to merit the current hatred being displayed to him and his faith....he's never drunk, gambled , and who are the major sponsors of Sport...hmmmm gambling and booze!

Of course he has drank..random women ..etc
Botany view hotel has a new mural..

"I think the whole Izzy affect on young gay people has, is so overstated "

As someone who spent close to 40 years working with adolescent boys, I disagree. I have known many 13-14 years olds who were well aware that they were gay and were insecure, depressed and absolutely terrified that their peers, or even their parents, would find out. I stand by my previous point. I am no expert on the bible but I thought Jesus brought a message of love and tolerance and said som ething like "judge not that you not be judged". Idiot literalists like Izzy seem to have missed the main message and become obsessed by details that were added later. The only reference to homosexuality being sinful in the New Testament is from Paul, who was not an apostle.

Udo , been reading a lot on Izzy's early life , and nah been a strict Christian because of his father......then again a mural on a pub wall is some kinda proof ......reallly?

Lozza , "Idiot literalists like Izzy seem to have missed the main message and become obsessed by details that were added later. "
there ya go again , I don't think Izzy is an idiot , his religion not him are the literalists , and the fact that Izzy has worked and helped gay people thru rugby ,shows he is not homophobic , it's the media and detractors who have created a storm in a tea cup ..and attacked the person.....at the end of the contentious bible quote ....he offered out of love , the means to repent and save yourself......but if you are not a person of Christian faith it becomes a moot point....so leave it alone as Peter Singer says!

Read a bit more brutus theres plenty out there about Izzys boozing days
How he drank and partied to excess.... Whoa...Tai Tuivasa didnt hold back about seeing him Tanked..

Do you have a link Udo , as I am really interested in any negatives?

Peter Singer actually said that the vast majority of Australians would laugh at his beliefs, which is true. My point is that there is a small minority of vulnerable people who are likely to have been damaged by it. So given that he was well intentioned all that does is make him a well intentioned idiot. Plenty of them around, but not many with his celebrity status.

Being offended by something is a choice, like they say.

"Offence can never be given only taken"

As a sinner am i offended that Izzys says I'm going to hell?

No

If someone is gay and offended that Izzy and his religion thinks their sexual choice/ sexual identity is a sin and they are going to some imaginary places called hell if they dont repent then FFS they might as well go live in a hole, because your going to live your life being offended every day for all kinds of BS.

The only difference between the other things on that list and the gay one and why its the only one that people are talking about is most of us don't see being gay as a sin.

It's really just a differing view of morals and what a sin is and what one is not, people are allowed to have different morals and views on what is a sin and what is not.

Sophistry Indo. You are not even addressing the issue which is about vulnerable gay youth, not detached rational heterosexual adults. And absolutely people can have different morals and they have the right to put them out there as Izzy did. But that doesn't justify what he did. We all have rights we choose not to exercise. If we do exercise them then we are morally responsible for their consequences.

There is no consequence, nobody is actually going to hell.

And if we are, well even us heterosexual people are going to be there to support all these offended gay people.

As I have posted a few times now being gay is a huge risk factor for youth suicide. An attack on their self-worth by someone they admire just adds to that risk. So consequences? They are out there, believe me.

lozza , "Peter Singer actually said that the vast majority of Australians would laugh at his beliefs, which is true. My point is that there is a small minority of vulnerable people who are likely to have been damaged by it. So given that he was well intentioned all that does is make him a well intentioned idiot. Plenty of them around, but not many with his celebrity status."

Ok 50% of Australians see themselves as Christian , 30% atheist , 20% believe in a higher power , so actually atheists are the minority...that's if you believe the 2016 census, so both you and Singer are just plain wrong!

Is Izzy and idiot in your eyes , ....because he's
1) Christian?
2) because he played thugby league?
3) because he sued Rugby Australia ?

It’s not just vulnerable gay youth who suffer when people like Folau try and push them to go against their natural inclinations.

I knew of a bloke who married and had kids etc. in his 20’s to try and fit in to society’s expectations only to realise in his 40’s that he couldn’t live a lie any longer. He left his wife and kids and came out as a gay man.

His wife was so devastated she killed herself and as his teenage kids blamed him he had no relationship with them either.

His life and those around him destroyed by a decision he made as a emotionally vulnerable young man listening to someone like Israel Folau.

O.K.so your meant to read izzys BSB and Acc num from the Botany View wall mural upside down...

Folau broke his contract. He was sacked. He is free to believe what he wants. It’s a matter of contract law and his case should be thrown out of court very quickly.

The freedom of speech / belief issue has been grabbed by the usual cultural war warriors. This was always in play after they lost the SSM debate, its the next battle ground linked with the desire to discriminate against gay teaching staff and students and to abolish the safe schools programs.

While the arguments are puerile I see them for what they are; a generational shift away from the past conservative power structures of god, monarch and country and in that sense the same cultural warriors are fighting against climate action, abortion (esp. in the US) and reconciliation with our indigenous culture and history for example. Feel threatened by one you will be threatened by all progressive social change .... reactionaries.

That mural on The Botany View Hotel nails it udo......

Classic!

If i was a young gay dude, i dont think id be too worried about Christians thinking im going to hell.

The hardest part to deal with would be the stereotypes of being gay, and people associating being gay with many of the stereotypes that TV or gay celebrities and especially areas of the gay community seem to fuel.

Imagine people thinking you are anything like the freaks at mardi gra parade, rather than just being a normal guy that likes guys instead of girls.

I prefer to think Izzy is an idiot and was unaware of the potential harm he was doing as the alternative is to believe he's a smug, self-righteous arse who cares nothing about the impact of his behaviour on others. 50% Christian? Well only in the sense they ticked that box, in terms of actual serious belief 20% would be generous and most of them would disagree with Izzy.

If you are a homosexual how do you repent..............didn't god make you that way?