Surfing and Veganism

Yep, I was vegan for six months about ten years ago. Like you, I did it for ethical reasons having read some of Peter Singer's books, and although I believed in it (still do) I simply wasn't healthy while vegan. I lost a shitload of weight, had joint problems, and didn't have any endurance. The diet wasn't for me so I gave it up and went back to vegetarian, then vegequarian, then eventually to a normal diet (by societal standards). These days it's everything in moderation and try and ignore the guilt.

Gonna be interesting to see where this thread goes.

I've gone through stages: vegetarian as a kid without really knowing what it was, conscious vegetarianism for most of my teens, vegequarian for most of my early twenties, only tried veganism for short stints. I've never really versed myself in the debate - I innately feel that the meat industry as it is today is undeniably wrong. That's not to say that I think meat eating in all its forms is wrong, but industrial meat is, for me, ethically abhorrent. During all my years in Indo (more than five years by now at least) I've eaten meat less than a twenty or thirty times I'd say.

These days I don't really know how to identify my eating habits. I can't remember the last time I went into a supermarket, or bought meat to cook for myself. I eat meat when I feel like it, which is rarely, and feel my most energetic and positive when I've been eating a mix of rice, beans and seasonal veg with about 400 tonne of chocolate in between. My philosophy to life at the moment has been on reducing waste, which dictates my eating habits a lot. All my food comes from either farmer's markets or bulk stores, which necessitates a healthier diet than I used to have. So far so good - though the chocolate thing is getting really out of hand.

I'm piscatorial vegetarian.

Have been for about eight years.

I've never felt better.

I was full raw ,vegan when I started and that lasted about 8 months till it was unsustainable due to my location at that time. I found my endurance sky rocketed when I gave up meat, but I also gave up sugar, dairy , piss and everything else you care to name, so you can decide where the improvement came from.

I did lose a lot of explosive strength though that caused me to include seafood.

I'm not down on the seafood as I'll catch as much of it myself as possible.

I went down this road due to major health problems in many people close to me and I thought....fuck that.

BTW Stok - that line about humans being destructive bacteria.....utter bullshit.

I've had less offensive things drip out the eye of my cock than that sentiment.

I generally try to be pretty responsible in regards to the environment and other living things etc but i could never be a vegan id go crazy i don't smoke don't do drugs and rarely drink and am pretty healthy but i love my meat, only meat I've eaten that i wouldn't eat again is dog it did nothing for me and I've since seen how bad they are treated in transport etc.

If i got really ethical minded on it all id rather pay double for true free range meat, anyway my wife would kick me out of my home and divorce me if i even suggested becoming vegan.

The way i look at it i have the best of both worlds i get to eat yummy meat meals but also enjoy some yummy vegan food.

I think the concept of being a vegan is interesting its widely believed these days that a large part of what makes us human is that we are the only animal that cooks food, its believed around the time we started cooking food in particular meat was the period we we really evolved our brain power, if this is true i find it ironic that we are where we are today because we eat meat and as a result people now have the choice to become vegans..kinda funny that.

Oh i did give up Cows milk for years and only drank Soya milk but then i read about how bad soya milk is so now I'm back to cows milk.

BTW. Dandan Thats crazy to read…Ive alway seen Indonesian's as huge meat eaters, my wife's family eat so much meat and eggs and when i go up Sumatran islands its all fish i actually crave vegetables and fruit but it's actually often hard to get and quite expensive as most is shipped in from the mainland.

So Stok - when you sit down to a meal with your family do you resemble a bunch of filthy bacteria.

Or was it my family you were referring to ?

Or maybe, you and me , we're both good cunts and it's all those animals we don't know personally that are the destructive problem that needs to be exterminated from the Earth ?

Unfortunately parroting the Matrix doesn't render you a considered person.

Otherwise Braudulio and myself would be president and 2IC of a global government.

BTW Aside from the truth in the old joke : Q How can you tell if there is a vegetarian at your party ?

A. They'll tell you.

I find that a lot of meat eaters can get very defensive and threatened by my choosing to not eat meat.

Lines like " Fuck that , life's too short to not eat bacon " and " You're gonna die from something anyway"
Usually being espoused by the type of life in the fast lane / FOMO / YOLO cunts that think nothing of spending every waking hour in front of the TV when they're not at work......not that there's anything wrong with that.

But I don't judge them on their life choices, why the fuck do they think they've got carte Blanche to tell me what I'm doing that's distasteful to them ?

Whoa - I'm getting upset here, my blood sugar must be down .

Could be time for a nut meat / I can't believe it's not butter sandwich.

Another joke people, I'd rather put a lepers cock in my mouth than any of that over processed faux food that seems to get peddled at Vegoes.

Each to their own though.

I guess everyone has their own idea of what ethical means to me ethical meat exist i think you have to look at each meat type differently then take into consideration different aspects like how the animals are treated quality of life and then environmental impact etc these all vary greatly, from a fish thats caught in the ocean compared to a pig thats restricted to a pretty pointless life with no room to move.

Maybe some would say just the act of ending an animals life to further your own is unethical, but i personally don't feel that way, life and death is just part of life's cycle, watch any wildlife documentaries and you will soon see that, you could even say nature is the cruellest of them all.

I also don't have a problem with killing an animal for food although i do admit that often when i have had to kill an animal to eat thats more than a fish, like a duck or a chicken or a pig, i don't enjoy eating it as much, its almost like i can still feel the animals warmth and smell its smell etc and it gets in the way of me enjoying it, but i get the same thing when i cook, i don't enjoy it half as much as when someone else cooks its like the food is still just ingredients rather than a meal.

I think thats kind of sad though, i think thats just because I'm so detached from the true cycle of life as when i see my Indonesian friends or mother in law kill an animal to eat or cook, they have no problem eating it, i almost feel jealous i can't be like that like I'm further away from the reality of life, i think when people go vegan then it pushes you even further away from who we really are, i guess that's why its a popular lifestyle choice these days for many inner city types.

Ive alway wanted to be put in a situation for a year or so somewhere remote where i had to farm everything vegetables, fruit, animals and be fully self sufficient, it would be really interesting to see how i went and how i felt about things after it.

BTW. For me i only ate dog once to see what it was like, but i have since seen them shipped on boats in Indo legs tied together and thrown in a pile in a heashen bag , to me dogs are different to other animals though as most domesticated animals have been breed for meat or milk and are still almost wild in a sense, while dogs have been an animal that humans have breed for companionship.

Stok, how do you get your protein?

How processed is that protein source, where is it grown and how much storage, transport etc etc does it need?

I and my family are majority fish a quarians or whatever the term is. 99% of the fish I can catch myself less than 5 ks from my house( i haven't bought fresh fish for years, there's always a can of sardines in the cupboard as a backup).
We eat a bit of free range chook, I'm self sufficient in eggs from my own hens. They eat our veggie scraps, bugs and a bit of grain.
I haven't really looked into it very deeply- so theres plenty of room for my views to be modified- but when I see the heavily processed protein sources that vegans eat (particularly soy) it seems to me far less sustainable to me than harvesting/farming my own protein sources locally.

Is meat unsustainable? Depends on how it's done. Seen any of Joel Salatins farming?
http://www.polyfacefarms.com/

Speaking of Soy, this is a great well balanced read on Soy IMO its not something that you should totally avoid but for me its one that i don't want to put to much of it in my body (hence why i went back to cows milk after years of drinking soy) as its in so many things already, you name it and they are in it.

http://authoritynutrition.com/is-soy-bad-for-you-or-good/

Also for people who think by being vegan or vegetarian that means they don't have blood on there hands so to speak, well thats not exactly true either, things just aren't that simple these days.

http://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-anim...

Soy is garbage.

"There's no way it can be healthy. You know it's loaded with pus and mucus right? " Yep and potentially we got the enzymes to consume dairy from the shit and mucus on the cows teats. I don't believe a moderate amount of dairy is harmful, and certainly some fermented dairy is quite healthy.

I eat a low meat diet, and wild caught or non-factory farmed where able. I personally don't see the need for veganism over vegetarianism as long as ethical/sustainable practices and consumption levels are followed. I also don't really get why people hold hyperstrict labels around their eating habits, its kind of self-flagellation via mental-obsessiveness, it all just sounds like an eating disorder to me actually - there's a huge gulf between "low meat" and "vegetarian" although the diet might be almost identical depending on the individuals.

I believe the major benefits are in going to low meat diets and avoiding factory farming practices for the remainder. That's 85% of the environmental/moral value right there, while going full vego would get you to about 97%, veganism on top just doesn't seem to hold much value. I'd like to see a wider variety of wild/sustainable meat sources (local processed wild rabbit, crocodile, wild bird, insect, jellyfish, various sea creatures, etc) with a lower overall intake made up for by more plants. Heck, just eating more Halal foods would be a start!

ID I agree soy is over processed and usually full of sugars but don't mind a bit, normally mix between soy, almond, coconut, rice/grains milks, mostly they're water anyway. Not into drinking a lot of dairy - save that for the coffee, or yoghurts, cheese etc.

FYI that conversation article has so many logical holes in it, makes you have to wonder about the validity of their whole website. I am not sure how they could publish it to be honest.

This chick at work gave me a soy sushi she found.. i pressed it and it exploded on her back..so funny she said it burnt.

Stok wrote:

It sounds like you live quite sustainably - good work. The problem is though that most people now live in crowded cities, and there's literally just too many people to justify letting everyone have a block of fertile land to raise chickens less than 5kms from the coast - so most people get their food from industries. You're a lucky exception in this case.

Yes and no. Lots of people now signing into small farming co-ops where they can get sustainable free range food both plant and animal in the local area surrounding their city.
This is probably way more sustainable and smaller ecological footprint than eating quinoa flown in from South America.

There is also the issue of our physiology and optimal nutrition. Obviously we are not obligate carnivores but we don't have the massive digestive tract of herbivores either. We've evolved to be omnivores and there's no doubt that animal proteins are far easier for us to digest and assimilate certain nutrients than plant proteins.......try putting a pregnant mum or a kid on a vegan diet and you understand that very quickly.
Not having a go at you Stok, it's a great topic.

I do agree on one thing, most of us eat way too much meat, i think because we are so disconnected from the reality of it and its just so east to get, just buy it at the shop all cut and packaged, we wouldn't eat so much meat if we had to actually kill or put the effort in to getting it, its not natural but then again our diets and just about everything we eat is now far from natural even fruits and vegetables have changed so much from what they were and i guess you could say if you live somewhere cold its not really natural to eat foods that aren't from your climate.

No offence i don't mean this personally it a good topic, I'm just talking in general, i find vegans no different to religious people, they have some good idea's and beliefs on general living, the problem is many seem to think everyone should do the same and almost feel a need to preach and convert.

Personally i couldn't think of anything worse than being a vegan not just because i love meat but i also love food like cheese and eggs so much and things like eggs are in so many different products, i think it would really suck to need to analyse everything you eat especially when traveling food me food is so much a part of enjoying other cultures and a way to even connect with people of other cultures, for example it would really suck going to Indo and not being able to grab some satay or beef rendang or martabak etc.

Personally for me the biggest problem with my diet currently is how much sugar i eat, I'm trying to cut back but I'm fully addicted to it and its in everything, i also hate the amount of waste and plastics we dispose of, i mean most families fill a big garbage bin a week as do we and we still compost and recycle as much as we can, kinda sucks when you think how much rubbish you dispose of in a year.

BTW. For those strict vegans out there, how far would you take you beliefs?….Would you still take anti venom made from a snake if you got bitten?

while we have capitalism, there will minimal sustainability !!!

while we have capitalism, there will minimal sustainability !!!

Developed world is post-capitalism Boltsy!

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/17/postcapitalism-end-of-capit...

"For those strict vegans out there, how far would you take you beliefs?….Would you still take anti venom made from a snake if you got bitten?"

What about a blood transfusion?

mk1....not so sure of this article when there is evidence that in no other time in history is that the balance of wealth is so unequal....when the richest 60 peoples wealth can equal the same as 3 billion peoples poorest and the top 1% of wealthy people have 97% of the wealth

Yes Boltsy, big issue but that doesn't necessarily preclude the arguments in the article. Does indicate the now-failure of capitalism though. I actually started to wonder who those 60 people are, it'd be interesting to find out.

I was vegetarian for 23 years. No fish, chicken, other animal meat or eggs at all. Not a jot. Even avoided cheeses with animal rennet etc. Pretty pukka. Philosophical reasons.

No more, but I would eat less meat than most.

I respect anyone's decision to choose their diets, and there can be all manner of reasons why one decides, be it health, ethics, religion, whatever.

But stok, the standard arguments for vegan lifestyle are emotive, simplistic and wrong. Again, I'm happy for you and others to make that choice, but you have drunk the vegan kool-aid. I urge you to be more sceptical.

Just a few points, don't have time to cover them all.

Soy, as a substitute has significant ethical issues (land taken up for soy farming), and is either well processed to make soy milk, or is significantly processed in the form of tempeh, tofu etc, so any 'unprocessed' arguments are hard to defend.

Soy has significant other issues, particularly for young females, as there is a substance in it which is chemically almost identical to eostrogen, and is taken up by the human body as eostrogen this can interfere with human hormones. Conversely, it can be useful for ageing females as a form of natural hormone replacement therapy.

Eggs, well, the damned chickens lay them every day or two, regardless of whether you eat them or not. They aren't fertilised, they are natural, there is no ethical reason not to eat them.

Meat, sure, make your decision, but plant food can't be grown on marginal land, whereas animals can graze that land. Grazing animals on marginal land increases the total food production.

Fish, sure we're currently over-fishing the ocean, but that doesn't make it unethical, just stupid.

The eating of animals, you're on firmer ground trying to raise an ethical argument there, but eating meat does not necessarily make you a bad person.

Let's remember in all this that 'lifestyle' diets are the privilege of the wealthy westerner, not an option for those struggling to get enough food on a given day.

Dairy, yeah, this one really gets me. The arguments proffered are, dependent on your perspective and given mood, somewhere between pathetic and mind-bendingly stupid. Humans can't drink cows' milk because it was made for cows!!! Is that it? Most of those cows wouldn't exist if we weren't drinking their milk, so does that make vegans cow-hating psychopaths? Hard argument to muster.

Some humans don't have the gene that processes milk and milk products properly, a very small percentage of the human race however. Aside from that, milk is a wonderfully nutritious food, also low fat (4% - full fat milk). Mucus and pus-filled? Oh gawd, the plants you are eating are covered in fungi, bacteria and viruses of all descriptions. Mucus and pus-filled milk? Only if they have mastitis and they can't use that milk for human food during that time. Perhaps a few mL per 100 litres gets through, but whatever amount if any, it is not mucus and pus-filled.

And the real kicker, that it's cruel to take milk from their young. That just takes the cake. Cows, like humans, will continue to produce milk for a long time after the human child, or calf, will need it. There is a point where the calves no longer need it, but if it is still being taken from them they will still produce it. But what about all those poor bleating calves, missing their mother's love??? Well, it's the most unthinking anthropomorphism, and even human babies cry, does that mean all mothers are abusing their children. It assumes about a thousand things, but mostly that they are human, and they clearly aren't. Milk production stops when it's no longer being taken from the animal(or human). Milking just extends the time, and it is an amazingly sustainable product, taking sunlight and turning that into grass and then into milk via the cows 4 stomachs and specific bacteria. It's a wonder! From then then, cheese, yoghurt et al.

Again, and I have looked at this issue for over 30 years, it's your personal choice, but the ethics of it all are so much more complex than the arguments offered for veganism. It's simplistic at best. That's the nicest thing I can say about the arguments for veganism. Peter Singer examines the complexity of the ethics so much more thoroughly.

And what cannot be argued is that humans are omnivores, and that is almost certainly the reasons we have been so successful in colonising the planet, but not like bacteria.

Best wishes on your dietary journey.

Nice post Batfink.

"Piscatorial Vegetarian"......

Un fucking believable.......

I'm a bovine/poultry vegetarian...

Sure you can raise kids on a vegan diet, but it obviously has pitfalls and comes off way more as a lifestyle indulgence from neurotic parents rather than a healthy choice for a growing kid.

"Paediatric dietician Helen Wilcock, a member of the British Dietetic Association, says she tries not to be judgmental about the rights and wrongs of vegan diets for young children, but any parent wanting to raise their child as a vegan needs to be very well-informed. "Vegan children can be deficient in vitamin D, calcium, iron and possibly vitamin B12, so they need supplements," she says.

Another big issue is that a vegan diet isn't very energy-dense: you have to eat a lot of it to get enough energy. But children typically don't eat a lot, so getting enough calories into them can be difficult. "I recommend adding oil to their food," Wilcock says, "because that gives them more calories."

Another difficulty is protein. "If a child eats meat and fish, it's easy to get all the right amino acids. But if a child is getting protein from pulses, the problem is that one type of bean might not provide every amino acid, so there has to be a good balance of pulses. In other words, a child who only eats chicken will get all the amino acids – but a child who only eats one type of bean won't."

Sheepdog wrote:

"Piscatorial Vegetarian"......

Un fucking believable.......

I don't come up with these labels Sheepy, I just live it.

Like if someone was to label you a non drinking , but thoroughly unhappy , former baker.

Can someone with any idea please describe to me why Gorillas, elephants , hippos , buffalo and giraffes get so large and powerful without animal proteins ?

"I don't come up with these labels Sheepy, I just live it"

Bahahahahahahahaha...... You grab it and run with, it's yours, buddy......
Piscatorial vegetarian........ Bhahahahahahahahahaaaaaah.......
Fuckn tears running down my face....... You made my saturday, bro.......

Btw, gorillas were considered herbivores, but are now considered omnivores...... The most intelligent animals are onmivores or carnivores... Herbivores are the least intelligent ..

Yeah I already assumed I would make your Saturday.

A Saturday spent gurning and fretting over the perilous future of Australia whilst the rest of us are getting barrelled , pissed and sucked off doesn't take much making though does it ?

PS Those tears ? I'm happy for you that you're convinced they're from good humour .

Enjoy the rest of your day cobber.

PS How would you label your diet ?

Sadcuntarian with Xtra scallops ?

Blowin wrote:

Can someone with any idea please describe to me why Gorillas, elephants , hippos , buffalo and giraffes get so large and powerful without animal proteins ?

Bugs Blowin they eat a LOT of bugs.

Actually I think hormones and the animal's DNA dictate how the nutrients are used or stored. Also they eat constantly so their intake is huge, imagine focusing 90% of your day on just putting more food in your mouth, even if it is just lettuce. That's my guess!

Blowin wrote:

Yeah I already assumed I would make your Saturday.

A Saturday spent gurning and fretting over the perilous future of Australia whilst the rest of us are getting barrelled , pissed and sucked off doesn't take much making though does it ?

PS Those tears ? I'm happy for you that you're convinced they're from good humour .

Enjoy the rest of your day cobber.

PS How would you label your diet ?

Sadcuntarian with Xtra scallops ?

Oh no... I'd label myself as a cunt....

Anyhow, just google searched "piscatorial vegetarian", seeings you reckon it's an existing label....

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHWA_enAU...

Nothing.... Nadda..... Zilch.....
Rather be a cunt than full of shit mate ;)

ps - actually, there are 2 references, one of which is yours..... Really popular label bro.... lol

'Can sumwun wiv eny idear pleese dezcrybe two meeee wheye Gurillers, ellafants , hippows , bufferlowz and jirrarfs gett sew larj an' powrfool wivouwt aminal prowteens ?'

Its very basic. Because their digestive system is designed to extract protein, energy and nutrients from huge amounts of plant sources.

'Fanks 'eaps mmmaaaaayyytee... bra... nouw culdya tewll arze 'ow cum a fisch cun breave warta n stuff... aaayyeee!!!'

Idiot. Swillnut.

Sheepdog wrote:

Blowin wrote:

Yeah I already assumed I would make your Saturday.

A Saturday spent gurning and fretting over the perilous future of Australia whilst the rest of us are getting barrelled , pissed and sucked off doesn't take much making though does it ?

PS Those tears ? I'm happy for you that you're convinced they're from good humour .

Enjoy the rest of your day cobber.

PS How would you label your diet ?

Sadcuntarian with Xtra scallops ?

Oh no... I'd label myself as a cunt....

Anyhow, just google searched "piscatorial vegetarian", seeings you reckon it's an existing label....

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHWA_enAU...

Nothing.... Nadda..... Zilch.....
Rather be a cunt than full of shit mate ;)

ps - actually, there are 2 references, one of which is yours..... Really popular label bro.... lol

Yeah who knows ? I thought it was a thing , turns out its PESCETARIAN.

Shows how much I know.

All I know is that eating fish as opposed to terrestrial meat makes me feel good.

Maybe you should figure out what makes you feel good.

And Sorry to have misinformed you and wasted your time searching on the Internet for shit when you could have been.....searching on the Internet for shit.

Maybe it's your diet making you unhappy mate ?

Surely it's worth looking into ?

You can't continue as you are ?

The bullshit talk stops here.

Hope that sounded real Clint Eastwood-like, though if it it didn't it doesn't matter 'cos the result will be the same. Anymore aggro trolling (Sheepdog) or playground level payouts (Uplift) they'll be deleted.

.

stunet wrote:

The bullshit talk stops here.

Hope that sounded real Clint Eastwood-like, though if it it didn't it doesn't matter 'cos the result will be the same. Anymore aggro trolling (Sheepdog) or playground level payouts (Uplift) they'll be deleted.

Fair call.

This shit is dull.

My guess is dung beetles have an impressive digestive system, they eat the shit of herbivores.

AndyM wrote:

"For those strict vegans out there, how far would you take you beliefs?….Would you still take anti venom made from a snake if you got bitten?" What about a blood transfusion?

I imagine the answer to that would involve their initial motivation for becomeing vegan. As other have said, there are many reasons for making dietary choices, but my choice to become vegan had nothing to do with animal welfare - sorry Gandhi! - and everything to do with environmental issues.

So by that rationale antivenom would present no issue.

Stunet.... Are you for real?

Here's what I wrote....
" "Piscatorial Vegetarian"...... Un fucking believable....... I'm a bovine/poultry vegetarian..."

Obvious humour...... Thought I'd get a laugh with the bovine/poultry vegetarian........

I then wrote;
"Bahahahahahahahaha...... You grab it and run with, it's yours, buddy......
Piscatorial vegetarian........ Bhahahahahahahahahaaaaaah.......
Fuckn tears running down my face....... You made my saturday, bro......."

So seriously stunet...... Are you for fuckn real? Where were you when I or others have had the shit ripped out of us far worse than this? Munching popcorn?

If you can't tell the difference between a bit of Aussie shit stir humour and trolling, then god help us all...

Am I allowed to say bullshit, if I say I retract the bullshit... after I said the bullshit...

And what if I spell bullshit properly, or is that bullshit?

And, so is the banned video up... or down? Is Joel Fitz a kook... like you(s) said and showed... or is that proper bullshit...

Does anyone know how come trees get so big without eating protein???

And, can a drone film bullshit... is that classified as bannable bullshit???