Surfing and Veganism
Holy crap........... Uplift and sheepdog.... Like Assad and Isis... or is it Russia and the kurds.... Or Turkey and the sunnis.... Or the yanks and the rebels.... An alliance with guns pointed..... LMFAO.....
Some girl at a party was preaching to me about vegetarianism and the evils of eating meat. I countered that the best thing about meat eating is you take some of the soul of the animal with you after you consume it.
She looked at me in horror for a split second then realised I was taking the piss, but it stopped the conversation pretty quick. Haha
batfink wrote:I was vegetarian for 23 years. No fish, chicken, other animal meat or eggs at all. Not a jot. Even avoided cheeses with animal rennet etc. Pretty pukka. Philosophical reasons.
Huge post there Batfink - your style of writing hints that nothing I say will convince you otherwise, but trust me, no kool aid has been drunk.
At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy nutjob, one thing to always note is that vegans have essentially no agenda when discussing diets other than health, ethical or sustainable ones - whereas groups such as Meat and Livestock Australia have massive financial agendas. Now I'm not suggesting that MLA skew science for financial gain, but I'd be very surprised if they don't put the spotlight on potential health risks of common meat alternatives for their own gain. So I take what I read about soy and veganism with caution.
Regardless, I find it hard to believe soy is that bad. I'm sure it's not perfect (same with all meat and dairy) from a long term health perspective - but I'm not going to shun soy on some minor potential health concerns - probably highlighted by groups such as the MLA. Remember that meat, dairy and eggs have high levels of saturated fats, can cause high cholesterol and colon cancer - just to name a couple of health risks.
Eggs - yes if you've got a couple of hens in the backyard then great - go nuts. Just remember that an egg is part of the menstruation cycle of a hen - so yeah, it's a hen's period essentially. If you feel the need to consume your hen's period then I don't find that unethical, I do find it somewhat hard to stomach. Mmmmm delicious period. Cage eggs are horrible of course, and free range is marginally better than caged.
Good point about marginal land - but the reality is not a lot of marginal land is used for livestock. A lot of livestock around the globe is fed soy. Soy grown from a crop on fertile land. So unless you always eat grass fed meat, then this point is redundant, and if you do always eat grass fed meat - then you're privileged in the sense you can afford it - most of the population can't. Also, we can't sustain the whole human population on grass fed free range meat, we don't have enough room.
Over fishing is very unethical - taking more than we should, not allowing for species to replenish - unethical.
True lifestyle diets are a first world thing. But remember that being an omnivore is a diet too. Most omnivores in Australia eat beef, chicken, lamb, salmon, tuna, prawns, oysters, mussels, yogurt, milk, eggs (scrambles, poached etc.), as well as a host of fruit and vegetables - sound a bit indulgent? Also, it's well known that the amount of food and water required for the livestock industry is huge, food and water which of course could be used to feed starving humans.
I'm surprised people don't see the absurdity in consuming dairy. I mean why do we only drink cows (and maybe goats milk)? What about dog milk, cat milk, possum milk, rat milk, kangaroo milk etc. So, if bull semen for example was nutrient rich would you gladly pour yourself a glass? Speaking of semen, I'm not sure how prevalent it is to be honest - but I've read that dairy cows are artificially impregnated - so they're basically raped - such that they can produce a baby and produce milk. The act of raping, removing the baby to consume the milk is just plain evil, regardless of anthropomorphism claim - it's evil. And I don't buy into anthropomorphism, it's a similar train of thought that I'm sure our early settlers used with aboriginal people.
I made a point previously that physically we may be omnivores - but I believe psychologically we're not - we're not killers. And I guess your definition of success may be different to mine, but I suggest you re-think. We've cleared rain Forrest, spilled oil, exterminated species and on top of that probably around 2 thirds of the population lives in extreme poverty, and 1% of the population controls 90% of the wealth. Also, sounds like we're now moving into an era of antibiotic resistant bacteria. I think we've still got a way to go yet.
I respect that you've looked into this for 30 years - but for me it's just too straight out undeniably the right thing to do in our society. Everyone's different though.
yorkessurfer wrote:Some girl at a party was preaching to me about vegetarianism and the evils of eating meat. I countered that the best thing about meat eating is you take some of the soul of the animal with you after you consume it.
She looked at me in horror for a split second then realised I was taking the piss, but it stopped the conversation pretty quick. Haha
Hah! Gold. I'm going to use that in the reverse too.
'why are you vegan'
'well ethical and sustainability reasons, but mostly because I don't want to take all the parts of animal soul from the meat I've eaten with me to heaven'
not enough dilbert on swellnet
Spok - You don't think that humans are born hunters ?
Honestly ?
How do you reckon humanity survived for thousands of years before agriculture ?
Why do you think shooting and fishing are so popular ?
You do realise that the reason consumerism s so rampant is because our biological urge to hunt and gather is being suppressed by modern society , don't you ?
Sorry mate, but when you refer to mankinds detachment from nature, I think your referring more to yourself than anyone .
And you might want to check the definition of anthropomorphism.
PS sorry if you stated before Stok, but how long you been vegan ?
Stok, it sounds like you principally don't like eating animal products - the stuff about whats in cows milk, the hen period stuff. I have no problem with any of that and don't find it off putting in the slightest, more the better I say! I also enjoy hunting animals for food and regret I haven't done it more. One day!
"Most omnivores in Australia eat beef, chicken, lamb, salmon, tuna, prawns, oysters, mussels, yogurt, milk, eggs (scrambles, poached etc.), as well as a host of fruit and vegetables - sound a bit indulgent?"
As long as the above food is sustainable and ethically sourced (and it seems that industrial beef is not sustainable) it doesn't sound indulgent, it sounds like a great diet.
Having said that, for ethical reasons I eat what I catch (bugger all) or eat what I would feel comfortable killing with my own hands (nice theory but I often stray).
Sorry Stok but to say that humans aren't natural killers is a nonsense.
I do think that when fundamentalists start hectoring and laying on the guilt trip it can actually be counter-productive and drive away potential converts.
Sorry I might not have made it clear - generally modern humans are not naturally hunters. Yes traditionally of course humans were hunter gatherers.
These days it's becoming borderline socially unacceptable - except for fishing - which is still widely accepted. When I say socially unacceptable - imaging putting hunting for your own meat down on your resume!
It's in the DNA Stok, it's part of being human. I'm not saying that it's necessary or desirable in a post-industrial society, but it's there.
I think a lot of frustrated and confused kids, specifically boys, would find it very grounding and clarifying to go hunting, even if it's just fishing. I think being detached from the natural environment and from the hunter nature of humans is a problem especially for boys.
Hence why young tearaways can respond so well to boxing and other martial arts, it's about understanding and trying to master that killer instinct in humans.
Your body is a perfect nuclear power plant. It pulls everything apart down to its Molecular level and uses what it wants and chucks the rest away. Don't be a slave to food as it restricts your ability to eat with any person at home and overseas who will often bring out their best food for you and you should eat it with thanksgiving for their generosity. You can have a general healthy and unprocessed food pattern that you prefer to follow, but remember freedom and the fellowship of man is more important. I'm sure Jesus ,who designed us as Vegos in the first place, was OK with Abraham serving him fatted calf for lunch and he ate Lamb for Passover and fish with the disciples but I'm sure he would prefer a good feed of fruit and Veg. The old bodily power plant can chew up anything really, just don't make a pig of yourself and live moderately......followed by a bowl of ice cream....Ha!
Very interesting thread fellas. This stuff sends me down a rabbit hole that is too complex for me to resolve for myself so I tend to avoid it! I find environmental reasons the most convincing for a vego, or possibly vegan, diet but then that opens up issues too.
The amount of land and water required to produce meat is something that I find hard to accept as reasonable but the alternative seems to rely on a fair bit of soy. That's ok I figured but then read how much of the world's soy comes from Brazil, specifically the Amazon. We can't be supporting the clearing of the Amazon as some kind of sustainable alternative.
But then I can't help but think, who am I to tell the Brazilians they can't do whatever the hell they want with their land to make a buck? The rest of us did it, seems rather hypocritical to deny them the chance to grow their economy that way unless we compensate them some other way for preserving the rainforest. We could do that, it's a great idea but it ain't happening.
So that sends me back to eating locally produced stuff only.
But I don't want that badly enough to spend more than a few extra bucks a week on it so I don't follow that through either. In short, I don't have the opportunity to live the sustainable local life described by freeride, and I don't have the funds or motivation to fund a wholly local food source.
So I don't do much about it and don't preach to anyone about environmental issues. I do a small amount in the food choices I do make, but not enough to justify any soap box.
As for the ethics of animal production. It's pretty messed up, a lot of the ways we treat our animals, and some of the arguments batfink proffered are a bit weak I reckon (chickens produce eggs sure but the billions of chooks in cages are only living that miserable life because we put em there to take their eggs. If we don't set up that factory, they aren't there dropping periods in a cage for us). But I then come back to the fact that we're a top predator now. We've gone from middle of the food web to the top and meat eating helped us get there. We're only doing what every species would do if given the chance, enhancing the chances of survival by dominating our prey and eating a diet that makes us stronger.
The emotional statements of chicken periods and cow's milk being full of pus etc...boring and unconvincing. When you get gastro, you've essentially eaten a small portion of someone's shit so I can get over the types of food molecules in these things. And it's demonstrably fine and healthy to eat these things. Bloody tasty too.
So I eat everything but try to recognise The impact it has and minimise it where possible. Telling myself that every day ag scientists are working to produce more with less. I eat meat daily though, so I ain't sustainable and don't pretend to be. I live a lucky and indulgent life in that regard.
But yeah, if you want to work in a job that helps the environment, become an ag scientist. Figure out how to produce more food with fewer external inputs.
Finally, Peter Singer...legend. I admire that bloke's capacity for rational thought and analysis. Such an interesting fella and remarkably non-preachy. But didn't he consider all this and decide veganism is the most ethical choice?
PS. No one's mentioned The Omnivore's Dilemma yet. I'm told that's a good read on these issues.
AndyM wrote:I think a lot of frustrated and confused kids, specifically boys, would find it very grounding and clarifying to go hunting, even if it's just fishing. I think being detached from the natural environment and from the hunter nature of humans is a problem especially for boys.
I see where you are coming from and it could be the case, but I don't think it is a bloodlust or the killing that would be grounding, coming from a pretty wayward and boring suburban youth and having spent time working with similar kids in the past. I think it is the act of being outside under your own resources; walking, hiking, paddling etc. I don't believe there is anything intrinsically human within us that drives us to kill, and I've seen the confusing and directionless of heaps of young kids when their energies are channeled into growing food or hiking the bush. It certainly helped me.
As a straw poll, how often do people here eat meat and how much? It's very common down my way for blokes to eat meat three times a day, in very big portions. Plenty of people I know won't sit down to a meal without meat because they genuinely fear it means they are less of a man. That suggests to me that there is an enormous social element at play, also seen in the way people will pretend to not eat meat when floating different social circles. It's probably talked about a lot in the literature, but I've never really read any of it.
Seems these days lots of people go vegan/vegetarian for environmental reasons or ethical reasons.
I wonder how these type of people would feel about eating smaller type animals like insects and meal worms etc, I've seen programs on how they think we might be eating more of this kind of thing in the future and some places in Asia etc farm these type of animals to eat, from an environmental point of view its very sustainable, from an ethical pint of view you would expect they still have a good quality of life?….but is this enough?
Dan - I normally eat a bit of meat with dinner but will easily go a few days without any. When I do have some its normally in a veg meal so not a steak or chicken breast, more like pieces in a curry/fried rice. And a preference for seafood first, chicken second. I like red meat but it's the worst for sustainability and for health so I tend to choose it occasionally - once every week or two.
ID - I am all for more variety in animal products. Have had ground cricket protein stuff, it was OK.
Hahahaaa ... vegetarian diet more socially responsible?
"But if you want to minimise animal suffering and promote more sustainable agriculture, adopting a vegetarian diet might be the worst possible thing you could do."
From here: https://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-ani...
Worth a read.
Those damned vegetarians, responsible for the death of so many sentient mice - oh the inhumanity!
Stok "I'm not sure how prevalent it is to be honest - but I've read that dairy cows are artificially impregnated - so they're basically raped - such that they can produce a baby and produce milk. "
Right Ive stayed out of this but this takes the cake artificial insemination of cows is rape is it.
Each to their own stok Eat what you want but everything you have written is based on opinion/emotions not facts.
If you want to make a strong argument provide the evidence, you have not. (its not my place to disprove, as everything stated is unproven or debatable at best)
Stok what about vaccines are you an antivaxer ? you sound like one basing views on nothing but emotion.
Nice posts freeride and batfink nice graphics sheepdog happyass and wingnut
The question needs to be asked why did vegans have to proselytise so much is it a result of hunger lack of amino acids, iron and vitamins
Or like religion to justify the doubt in their own beliefs
Wingnut, that article was posted before, its got so many holes in it, its embarrassing for the publisher in my view.
What are the holes in it MK1 . Dont make the statement provide proof.
one point is the claim we should be eating more kangaroo I agree. look at diapause reproduction for sustainability
"'In Australia we can also meet part of our protein needs using sustainably wild-harvested kangaroo meat. Unlike introduced meat animals, they don’t damage native biodiversity. They are soft-footed, low methane-producing and have relatively low water requirements. They also produce an exceptionally healthy low-fat meat."
Someone showed it to me a year ago, I'm on phone now so won't re-read but off the top of my head:
1. They are comparing calory or protein (can't quite remember) content from beef/animals to plant food but people over eat protein/calories on animal diets so the 1 to 1 comparison is flawed from the outset. vegetarians don't eat buckets of greens each day and are quite OK.
2. They used grains as the major vege food source when it should be vegetables, people don't drop meat and replace with bread. Vegetables don't have the same pest profile as grains.
3. Most of the grain growing now, particularly soy, is for animal feed so the mice deaths are really ontop of the animal deaths caused by meat eating. Dropping meat would clearly radically lower the pest killing levels as grain use would drop massively.
4. Something about Australian rangelands without realising that most of coastal Australia was logged during early settlement and us not necessarily natural range land (although no doubt some is)
Numbers 1, 2 and 3 really make it a null argument to be honest. ( Hope I got the right article!)
Big fan of too meat by the way, we should definitely et more of it.
Roo meat
Realistically, if everyone wants to add any kind of legitimacy to the whole "sustainability " charade that is currently being fantastically superimposed of the current lifestyles of most people, then the reduction of the amount of livestock on marginal or even - maybe especially - verdant land would have to be an essential starting point wouldn't you think ?
Even Sheepdog is alert to the fact that our most realistic opportunity to combat any increase in the heating of the planet, after the increase in the employment of non- carbon based power sources, is to increase the surface area of botanical settlement.
Whether your discussing biodiversity , heat soaks, desalinification, habitat provision or carbon fixation it boils down to increased repatriatin of native species and that mostly requires the removal of introduced livestock.
So maybe those that love a bit of red meat should get used to a bit of roo meat.
Or possum.
I heard koala is nice.
To be honest platypus is a bit tough for my taste though .
It's certainly no Tassie Tiger....now that was a succulent steak !
So if people are vegans or vegetarian for ethical or environmental reasons does that mean that these people also don't have pets, like dogs or cats?
Surely it wouldn't be fair to feed a cat or dog a vegan/vegetarian diet.
Whatever your theoretic calls on volume of food required by vegoes.....most days I'll start with a bit of rice and some eggs.
A few hours later it's pretty much just fruit and veggies till dinner which is a bit of fish and some veggies.
Not in ridiculous quantities either.
And that will sustain me all day, no worries and I am very physically active.
I find I'll get hungry when my body runs out of fuel too, unlike my previous existence where I'd get hungry just because my blood sugar levels were plummeting - though to be fair that was more sugar related.
But that's just me and it's taken - and is taking - a lifetime of experimenting and adjusting to find the diet that makes me feel best physically and mentally.
Each to their own but I don't go in for the guilt associated with meat eating, or even the environmental considerations , though it's nice to be able to reduce the smug factor of your average Enviro Warrior by pointedly revealing their dietary shortcomings where the Sustainable Balance of the Free World (!!!!!) is at stake.
Forgot to mention , I don't really do grains ie bread, pasta or that kind of gear either- doesn't agree with me , literally gives me a rash and fucks with my moods.
Beer and Pringles ?
Fucken oath.
Though I'm pretty sure that Pringles are not literally a food ?
Not sure how that works but fuck they're good.
Though the Oz ones are too salty for my sensitivities.
possum is ok not much meat good feed em fruit before despatch.
Koala is bad would never eat it again , lightly bbq or stewed unimpressive, STILL better than SOY MEAT
Snakes have potential tastes like crocodile without the delectable croc fat.
just reminded me of frogs legs how good are they cannot find them anywhere in OZ.
indo-dreaming wrote:So if people are vegans or vegetarian for ethical or environmental reasons does that mean that these people also don't have pets, like dogs or cats?
Surely it wouldn't be fair to feed a cat or dog a vegan/vegetarian diet.
Like everything else in the world the choice is yours Indo.
Personally , I find the idea of pets fucking abhorrent.
Sure if you wish to have an animal as a companion that you'd treat as an equal then awesome.
Locking a dog in a yard on its own while you're at work , having a bird in a cage with clipped wings or putting a gerbil in a shoebox or a hutch.....fuck that shit.
Cruel, cruel,cruel.
And I love dogs.....though I couldn't eat a whole one .
Boom Tish!
Yeah not a fan of caging a bird or pets like rabbits or cats especially when they are left to roam.
But i am a big dog person, luckily i have a lifestyle where he is rarely left home alone.
Eat some good back straps, that you have actually shot and hunted.
Put on ya back..
Walked home..
Cooked?
Thats real food believe it or not!
Coming from the Hominid himself;)
SurferFuk wrote:Eat some good back straps, that you have actually shot and hunted.
Put on ya back..
Walked home..
Cooked?
Thats real food believe it or not!
Coming from the Hominid himself;)
Are we talking Venison?…now there is a meat that your actually doing the environment a favour if you go and hunt for food.
I never done that, but it something id like to do before i die, i get the feeling hunting these days is becoming almost looked on as a bad thing but if the animal is a pest or sustainable I'm all for it, i think its a big part of who we are as for thousands of years we were hunters, i think that is why many of us including me enjoy fishing so much.
Dorian and some other Hawaiin boys are big on there hunting [bow] ?
indo-dreaming wrote:SurferFuk wrote:Eat some good back straps, that you have actually shot and hunted.
Put on ya back..
Walked home..
Cooked?
Thats real food believe it or not!
Coming from the Hominid himself;)
Are we talking Venison?…now there is a meat that your actually doing the environment a favour if you go and hunt for food.
I never done that, but it something id like to do before i die, i get the feeling hunting these days is becoming almost looked on as a bad thing but if the animal is a pest or sustainable I'm all for it, i think its a big part of who we are as for thousands of years we were hunters, i think that is why many of us including me enjoy fishing so much.
Spot on ID..
You are a legend, Venison back straps on pan, is the best ID, IMO.
Thinly cut and seared at a high temperature in a hot pan is the beez neez....
Wow;)
Has to be fallow tho,...
Best backie's around....
Past my bed time 8.30;)
A meat eater has to get some well earned sleep.
Good night poppets..
This can't go on any longer!!! I'm sure I speak for poor Stuupe when I say this. Poor Stuup, its been a tough week, what, with the joel fitz kookamaximus, zennie conundrum, then learning that the supposedly heavy moment in his life, was nothing more than 2 geeks flapping around in useless, gutless, washed up, feeble sloppy washthroughs. Now he's besieged by reems and reems and reems of ludicrous... dare I say it... childish...ludicrous posturing, gesturing... bullshitting!!!
This thread alone is taking surfeeing to ludicrous depths never seen before... surfees are being represented as a mass movement of jibbering... dare I say it... BULLSHITTING idiots!!! STOP I SAY (speaking for Stuupe, who is no doubt reeling in speechless horror!!!???...
Imagine anyone of these jibbering postees, these... these... these... being handed a group of clients, and being asked to produce a favourable result... of course you can't... the result would be a legal,a global ludicrous, nightmarish fiasco the likes of which the planet has never witnessed before!!! STOP IN THE NAME... no, THE HONOUR OF SURFING!!!
I will grant you several gem like clues. Pigs are used to teach medical students about human digestive functions. Survival is different to thriving. Muscle only grows at optimum levels when someone is thriving. Hormones rule. Cholesterol, and thus fat, especially saturated fat, are the cornerstone of hormones. Certain fats and proteins are essential for human life, carbs whilst optimal, aren't. Cholesterol is to humans what cellulose is to plants. Anabolic means healing, thriving, visa versa, catabolic means breaking down.Its normal to have both, but tip the scale. We have a huge water content, think of it as also a catalyst.
Please throw your women's weekly and new idea guide to modern eating in the bin. For Stuupes sake.
Goodnight, sleep in peace, let the nightmares end... ta...
Look, on behalf of Stuupe, for Stuupe's sake, lets not beat around the bush... STOP BULLSHITTING!!!
thats gonna get ya into trouble.
That's what ya get for telling the truth. Load up the big shoulders, and the back... that's what they're for... I'm going to do a workout.
What are your thoughts on eggs Uppy?
Well, it seems most people who responded to this thread are conscious of how their diet effects the environment. Some responses even show people actually live quite sustainably.
One thing I've noticed is, that most responses have been somewhat selfish - and I don't mean to have a crack at anyone by saying this. At the end of the day, as surfers, we are innately selfish humans. Are health is directly linked to our ability to surf well and catch more waves - so if there's any health risk (even an alleged healthrisk), or reduction in performance associated with being vegan, I doubt surfers could live with it.
Oh - and Rule303 - I'm offended you think of me as an anti vaxxer. And I'm not writing a thesis here so I'm not going to waste my time with finding references - you can chose to ignore me or you can do your own research.
Anyway, another reason I became vegan is because if we continue consuming animal products the way we do now, the future is looking bleak. I mean, there's some 16 billion animals now which exist solely for human consumption (born, raised and slaughtered for some obese kid's happy meal!). What's going to happen when the population doubles, or triples (and human meat consumption habits keep increasing)? Just scale up our factory farms? See if we can find quicker ways to slaughter animals? I mean, the cost of labour's going up and machinery is becoming more advanced - the slaugherhouse of tomorrow could have no employees, just an expanse of machinery stunning (hopefully), killing, dismembering etc. so we can continue to get our optimal nutrition. Imagine that, 20 billion + animals living such an existence. We probably should go back to just hunting and killing our own wild food - but we should also be hunted ourselves too - just so we're a part of the food chain (I guess being a surfer we kind of are, I mean there's a small risk of being a shark's meal).
One funny thing I thought of the other day too - I was flicking channels the other day and ended up seeing War of the Worlds on TV (the shit version with Tom Cruise). All I could think about is, what the aliens were doing to the humans in the movie - is already happening to animals here. The attemped horror of the movie was embarassing really.
Hmm, there might be an image problem there somewhere Stok - I was going to make a crack about becoming a vegan, gluten free anti-vaxer and moving to Mullumbimby.
I disagree completely that surfers are somehow innately selfish because of their recreation. How is a person's decision to exercise and relax a selfish thing? It's no more selfish than reading a book, playing tennis or going for a walk.
And I disagree that eating a diet to which you have found your physical body responds best, is selfish.
Some Jains sweep the ground in front of them as they walk to avoid harming even insects. That's admirable but a wholly subjective decision on what is acceptable to the person. We all draw the line somewhere and it's absurd to label an animal as selfish because it eats another animal, in a manner consistent with its evolution.
Sorry stok, you're relying on emotional arguments here. You're suggesting things like we need to imagine 20+ billion animals living and dying for us as though it's self evidently bad, when it clearly isn't. There are lots of arguments of how that's good - eg malnourished kids in the developing world getting better fed as we sort out an equitable distribution framework.
You keep choosing the emotive words like slaughtering and dismembering, chicken periods. That's fine but many people have come to terms with what it means for a cow to go to bovine university. And menstruation isn't icky to grown ups so eating an egg isn't offputting.
It's all a bit predictable and unconvincing. You're going to have to do better than appealing to emotion.
benski wrote:I disagree completely that surfers are somehow innately selfish because of their recreation. How is a person's decision to exercise and relax a selfish thing? It's no more selfish than reading a book, playing tennis or going for a walk.
And I disagree that eating a diet to which you have found your physical body responds best, is selfish.
Some Jains sweep the ground in front of them as they walk to avoid harming even insects. That's admirable but a wholly subjective decision on what is acceptable to the person. We all draw the line somewhere and it's absurd to label an animal as selfish because it eats another animal, in a manner consistent with its evolution.
Sorry stok, you're relying on emotional arguments here. You're suggesting things like we need to imagine 20+ billion animals living and dying for us as though it's self evidently bad, when it clearly isn't. There are lots of arguments of how that's good - eg malnourished kids in the developing world getting better fed as we sort out an equitable distribution framework.
You keep choosing the emotive words like slaughtering and dismembering, chicken periods. That's fine but many people have come to terms with what it means for a cow to go to bovine university. And menstruation isn't icky to grown ups so eating an egg isn't offputting.
It's all a bit predictable and unconvincing. You're going to have to do better than appealing to emotion.
I can assure you I'm not trying to appeal to emotion - I'm just trying to open a discussion with a what if scenario - your response was good in some ways Benski re. improving worldwide nourishment - however the sentence is innately assuming that the more animals we can kill to improve human life - the better we will become. I think it's a bit backwards, particularly due to the massive disconnect most people already have with their food.
I mean, years ago it was completely normal to keep a black slave in USA, and I'm sure a few people would have thought of these people as just that - slaves, nothing more, nothing less. The thought of cows as simply a living breathing food source is not too different.
Anyway, again I'd like to reiterate I'm just opening up discussion, not trying to convert you with emotional words such as slaughter, dismember, periods etc. even though these words are actually exactly correct - we actually use warm fuzzy words such as pork, beef, veal etc than saying what they really are.
A funny thing also is if you said to someone 'I'm going to eat some lamb', you'd get no reaction. Try saying 'I'm going to eat some lambs' and see what happens - the S is a key letter here - it brings the reality.
p.s. I don't find menstruation icky, I just would prefer not to eat it. I've traveled a lot around Asia and have eaten all sorts of weird and wonderful things.
Eggs are part of the reproductive system is true. Calling them hen periods is not strictly true because chickens and human beings don't have the same reproductive system. It's pure emotional language.
Eggs are one of the most nutritious foods that exists in nature, and hence widely prized by very many species, including humans, in almost every geographical location.
Feed a kid a vegan diet and you have to work very hard to avoid malnutrition. Throw eggs into the equation and all problems of malnutrition instantly disappear.
To dismiss their nutritional value is to dismiss the intelligence of almost 2 million years of human evolution....thats a pretty precarious conceit.
Stok,
So basically then, you've started a thread to say, hey you're all eating muscles, chicken periods, dismembered mammals and cute baby sheep that are your slaves, that's cool do what you like, I'm just saying.
And yet you're not trying to appeal to emotion? Come in stok you really do need to do better than that. What is your argument that a vegan lifestyle is preferable? So far I can't see beyond it's bad to eat meat because it's clearly bad. And a little bit gross. When it's self evidently good to many others.
Oh to be fair, you've equated animals with humans by saying keeping an animal is akin to keeping a slave. Fair enough, I disagree, but I can see the argument. So where do you draw the line and why? By living in a house you live on cleared land that otherwise denies a koala a eucalyptus tree. Are you ok with that? New developments that clear land for housing kill native fauna, probably a bad thing, but what about existing towns, are they just as bad? If so where do you draw the line for human existence? Are there any towns or houses that are ethical?
Our very presence causes suffering to other animals. Where do you draw the line at what is acceptable suffering and what isn't? Do you sweep the ground as you walk or are you ok at stepping on an ant or cockroach?
Once you've defined these, can you explain why? So far all you've done is open a thread, declare everyone selfish and that eating animals is bad because. Everyone else has stated what they're ok with and why but I haven't seen a convincing argument for vegan eating beyond emotional words. I'm seriously open minded on this topic so hit me with it man!
PS. I don't say I'm eating some lambs. I say, quite regularly, I'm eating baby sheep, an engorged goose liver, cow's milk and the cheek meat from a cow. Yum.
Most people react with a yum, let's get some. Except maybe not the goose liver, pass on forced feeding a bird. Emotional words don't really make a difference. People understand that meat comes from animals kept for slaughter.
Very true Benski and thats my main beef with the Peter Singer argument.
He conveniently ignores that to be a human, especially a modern human who flies in a plane from New York all around the world to deliver lectures and lives in a house and relies on agriculture and uses a computer etc etc is to be part of a system that involves a massive ecological footprint that destroys millions and millions of animals plants etc etc.
Veganism is really a salve for that guilt, a self attempted but futile attempt at removal from the facts of human evolution and modern human existence. Fundamentally, it's a deception, what John Galbraith would call an innocent fraud.
Good points Benski and Freeride - being vegan really is a way to deal with guilt. I kind of feel that something is a lot better than nothing. Personal choice of course.
freeride76 wrote:Eggs are part of the reproductive system is true. Calling them hen periods is not strictly true because chickens and human beings don't have the same reproductive system. It's pure emotional language.
Eggs are one of the most nutritious foods that exists in nature, and hence widely prized by very many species, including humans, in almost every geographical location.
Feed a kid a vegan diet and you have to work very hard to avoid malnutrition. Throw eggs into the equation and all problems of malnutrition instantly disappear.To dismiss their nutritional value is to dismiss the intelligence of almost 2 million years of human evolution....thats a pretty precarious conceit.
A quick google search of 'eggs nutrition' shows that you only get 13g of protein and 373mg of cholesterol (125% of your daily intake) per 100g of egg. Compare that to say, walnuts which give you 15g of protein and no cholesterol (plenty of fat though). Are eggs really that great for you? (not trying to be sarcastic - honest question).
Another thing I think about - our diets have changed massively within modern times. People now eat for fun, social reasons, luxury and flavour more often than they eat for sustenance I reckon. I mean, of course they still eat for sustenance, but a lot of people won't eat bland or boring food. So people it foods which are tasty, varied and filling. Compare that with the 2 million years of human existence where eating foods have been pretty much about sustenance only and it makes a massive difference.
For example, we subconsciously want to eat an egg for dinner over say a banana because we crave foods high in fat and protein - back in the past our next hit of protein and fats may be days or weeks away. We ate for sustenance. Now people struggle to get through a day without getting their fats and protein fixes - but they're not doing it for sustenance, they're doing it because they like the taste (and the feeling) and basically, beacuse they can.
Surely this can't be healthy?
I think surfers, by their nature, are generally pretty in tune with the environment - more so than the general public.
We regularly get to fully immerse ourselves in the raw, unforgiving ocean, sometimes that ocean may be hours away from civilisation. We get to see sides of the ocean many don't, and all surfers feel somewhat connected to it.
Surfers are usually concerned about climate change, dwindling natural resources, excessive human population increase, exploitation of sea animals (Bali Dolphins, Seaworld etc), Tuna cages (Victor Harbor) and shark diving - hell even general littering (I've never seen a true surfer litter).
So I thought I’d put it out there – is anyone on this forum vegan? If not, have you ever considered it?
Living a vegan lifestyle is pretty much as close as you can get to being sustainable in our modern society. Aside from the health and serious and significant ethical reasons to become vegan (and there are so, so many of ethical reasons available), sustainability is a huge one. Human demand for seafood is straight out killing our oceans. Livestock is also killing them – directly through creating ‘ocean dead zones’ near farmland and indirectly through agriculture’s massive carbon footprint.
As a lifelong surfer, and only a recent vegan (6 months) I encourage you to watch this, and consider if you want to continue being a part of one of the most destructive ways of life the earth has ever seen.
p.s. I became vegan only for sustainable and ethical reasons – I actually don’t think eating meat is necessarily wrong, and I do believe in the food chain and apex predators – But the way humans consume is not what I would consider part of the food chain. We’re not an apex predator – we’re a destructive bacteria.