Advice for better surfboard durability? Firewire, vs PU 4x4x4 vs 4x6x4

Nil in the way of extra volume - a little heavier with the layer of 6oz [very little]
More prone to snapping or creasing ? nope stronger if anything
Maybe try a 4x4x4 glass job with a 4oz patch if your concerned about the extra weight.

Try 6 &6 & 6 oz deck with 2x 6 bottom &:stop trashing the planet once & for all . Surfers & pollution are hand in hand .

And that combination would make a lovely "lead sled"
Caml I think he wants a short board with a longer lifespan and not a board for life.

Just like a foam coffee cup . Use once then toss it in the trash

Caml what do you get your desert storm glassed at? Also what size stringer do you get in yours?

Wheres my desertstorm thread ? 666 with smaller than average stringer. High density foam too .

Hi mcsc, I'm 93 kg and have had similar issues. Generally these days I'll go for 4 x4 deck and 4 oz bottom but 4 x6 deck is definitely more durable. I always get some carbon round the rails on the tail otherwise I end up blowing out the rail after about 3 months due to being a bit heavy footed. If you thought it was likely to be a bit too heavy then you can cut out the second layer of 4 oz from in front of your front foot because you won't stand there anyway if you're going to order as a custom. That way you can get a bit more durability but pretty much the same weight. I've had a couple of fire wires but haven't really found one that was magic

Heavy footed pooman ? Sounds like lightfooted if you are getting 3 months . You wont dent high density foam with 3x 6 oz on top if your crushing stomp dents badly try something along those lines

Lead sled . I like that .

Interesting topic. I'm interested simply because I too want my boards to last longer. Just got a new one, surfed once and it has dents already. My question is, how long do you think is a good curing time? Shaper told me 10 or so days? I've had a fair few new boards in my time and have always left them for 2 weeks at least. This one was 11 days, but I've subsequently found a lot more dents than usual. Any thoughts?

There's heaps of varying opinions around about this so all I go off is experience and what has worked for me. But in general if the blank is not super hard then deck dents are inevitable. Waiting longer doesn't seem to change that. I've had boards that I've surfed straight out of glassing and they've been good and others that have been on a rack in a store for months that have dented badly. The strongest foam on the blank is the most densest near the surface and so it's important that the shaper not mow all of it off or if it's done by computer that it's set up right. That helps a lot with deck dents. Once again it's only my opinion but I've found boards with a strong blank and lighter glassing last longer than a softer lighter blank and heavier glassing

Hi mcsc,

I ride the FW fst boards as a larger guy and yes they are definitely more durable than pu standard glass (I am 90-95kg and 6'4" so no light foot either). They are susceptible to shatters on the rails and if these go through the glass and allow water to get to the EPS core they can also suck water, so you need to regularly check the board to ensure water tightness and repair any cracks. I have an FST that is now over two years old, not a single compression on the bottom of the board, but one decent compression on top from a knee I think that has the board currently out of the water. The other FST I have is about 3 months old now, looks brand new and not a single mark. Landed on top of it after ejecting from a wave on the weekend, landed on top of it on my back, not a dent that said, michel bourez who rides for FW does seem to snap them at quite a rate so not saying they are indestructible, especially in bigger surf.

Firewire owners always rave about them.............the greatest things ever - but there next boards they are back to PU.

poo-man wrote:

There's heaps of varying opinions around about this so all I go off is experience and what has worked for me. But in general if the blank is not super hard then deck dents are inevitable. Waiting longer doesn't seem to change that. I've had boards that I've surfed straight out of glassing and they've been good and others that have been on a rack in a store for months that have dented badly. The strongest foam on the blank is the most densest near the surface and so it's important that the shaper not mow all of it off or if it's done by computer that it's set up right. That helps a lot with deck dents. Once again it's only my opinion but I've found boards with a strong blank and lighter glassing last longer than a softer lighter blank and heavier glassing

Cheers poo-man, kind of been my experience as well. Is there much weight difference with a denser blank? I might add this board was not from where I normally get them. Feels really good, just not sure it is going to last

100% agree with the more 'dense' foam option ... What I've learned from making boards for myself if that there are 'generally' 3 foam density options for shortboards - comp lite, lite and standard. If you pick up a board and it feels light, it may not be the glassing schedule, but the foam density.

A hard / heavier glassing schedule over a softer foam core is limited in it's ability to stop deck compression. So, it's the "right" combination of foam density and glassing schedule.

Now, when you say 'longevity', how long do you want the board to last? Keep in mind that the standard PE/PU surfboard deteriorates under UV and use (i.e. loses flex and spring - you know how a board feels 'dead' after a while), so it really is a disposable product.

Option to go with en Epoxy glassing schedule to prolong the life of the board - worth looking into rather than just a heavier 4x6 deck glassing schedule.

Also, FWIW, watch if you drop the second layer of 4 from say your chest forward as it will change the flex of the board in the front half of the board, which is where you use the rail as you start critical turns, so the board may feel and handle differently.

Adding a carbon patch to the rail of the tail? It's an option too, but doesn't help the deck. Also, ask around, anyone who has snapped a board, or creased one, with a carbon rail patch - where did it snap or crease? Rail patch has an impact on flex.

When ya paying what, $700 or more for a board, and they last, maybe 6 months before they go "dead", or get compressions and cracks, yep it starts to hurt ... that's why I started making my own. Computer design, machine cut and glass yourself for around $220 per board - finished, with fin and leash plugs, all consumables, etc. - it's easier to do than you might think. A lifetime skill then that you can pass onto your kids, etc ???

Great info Wingnut. Mate, I have been wanting to try doing my own for a long time, but always talk myself out of it. "Not enough room, don't know how, don't want to blow coin, etc." How many goes did you have before you got one you were really happy with?

Not all boards feel dead as they age . I have old classics that still go off becos the glassing is strong and not much has changed during its 30-40 yr life . I think a lot of that is the rider getting bored and finding the limits of each shape .

mcsc wrote:

Never ridden Firewire but am considering one. Some guys rave about them, others not. What model Firewire have you got? In FST construction?

My bet is Michel Bourez is riding comp strength boards so could be why he's snapping so many. Plus he's riding heavier surf then what I see on the Sunny Coast(!)

I am ridding a board called the hashtag which is a performance hybrid, rounded tail. It's not a full on high performance short board but suits the waves in and around Sydney pretty well. My other older board is more of a groveller called a spitfire, great in small and fat surf. Recently they seemed to have reduced their number of boards on offer, they do two pyzel shapes in fst which are very popular, the tomo boards (not my thing) and quite a few potato/summer boards. Realise they don't suit everyone and some guys will never want to go EPS but I find it a very durable option and will probably keep on buying FST.

Montygoesbananas wrote:

Hi mcsc,

I ride the FW fst boards as a larger guy and yes they are definitely more durable than pu standard glass (I am 90-95kg and 6'4" so no light foot either). They are susceptible to shatters on the rails and if these go through the glass and allow water to get to the EPS core they can also suck water, so you need to regularly check the board to ensure water tightness and repair any cracks. I have an FST that is now over two years old, not a single compression on the bottom of the board, but one decent compression on top from a knee I think that has the board currently out of the water. The other FST I have is about 3 months old now, looks brand new and not a single mark. Landed on top of it after ejecting from a wave on the weekend, landed on top of it on my back, not a dent that said, michel bourez who rides for FW does seem to snap them at quite a rate so not saying they are indestructible, especially in bigger surf.

My last 2 customs have been EPS/epoxy one 6x4x6 and the other 6x4x4 and both have held up really well. The later being my groveler so it's had lots of use and is 3 years old now. The deck has sunk a bit now with plenty of pressures but still has a bit of life left.
I also have a FW Tomo in FST and the thing is pretty solid, hardly a pressure ding on the deck. It's also taken a few knocks where I've thought "shit! that's not good" only too look and nothing.
Got a couple NPJ's recently so back on PU for now. Curious to see how they hold up in comparison, so far so good.
I'm 90kg for reference.

It feels a fair bit lighter and a bit more lively under foot. As I mentioned above it is my groveler so it's hard to give you a fair comparison as dims are way off my other boards. It's 5'7 x 21 3/4 x 2 7/16 and my other boards are 2 9/16 and 2 5/8 thick and much narrower. Also it's used in much smaller, weaker waves so flex comparison is hard to say.

I bought a foam cup from kirra surf.moved to wa and it lasted 4 weeks never again.got a custom with 6 x 6 x 6 glass. This thing will last till im in a retirement village..

linez wrote:

Great info Wingnut. Mate, I have been wanting to try doing my own for a long time, but always talk myself out of it. "Not enough room, don't know how, don't want to blow coin, etc." How many goes did you have before you got one you were really happy with?

This is going to sound conceited, but, the first one actually worked and surfed quite well.

It took me 3 boards to fully understand how accurate the AKU Shaper software and machine cut process is, and once dialed, it's been refinements to get boards perfect for me, while also playing around with some ideas (fin layout, fin cant, flex, volume distribution, etc.) ... Glassing took a few errors, well actually, it was sanding that was causing the issue(s) before I had it structurally sound. My glassing is nowhere near as aesthetic or 'showroom' as professionals, but they hold up quite well. Each one is better than the last, but I seem to make stupid errors with the laps.

mcsc wrote:

Wingnut, your vote on epoxy/PU vs epoxy/eps? Understand it depends on what waves you're surfing etc etc

I haven't ridden epoxy as yet

I have ventured down the Epoxy path ... yet.

Anyone interested in this stuff, HEAPS of info on swaylocks.

I also add, the boards I did in "lite" density foam, while falling to pieces in less than 6 months ... have been the most fun, most performance boards I've ridden in a long time. The different flex, spring and lightness gave them an edge, a real zip ... was worth doing a few just to understand the impact. I figured at $600-$700 for a new one off the rack, I could do 3 myself and be breakeven. I'm so glad I did them.

Oh, and fin layouts, and fin cant - again, a worthwhile journey to understand what impact it has on a boards performance. Probox fin system was great for this. Throw in different fins and one board has a huge range of performance.

I do all my boards in epoxy,highly recommended.But like others have been saying won't make big difference if Your using low density foams.You can use epoxy over standard pu blanks no worries.Also I reckon it's a good idea to make Your first few boards by hand.gives a great understanding of the process.

mscs, and anyone else interested ...

'shaping' or as I call it 'designing' using computer software is a lot easier than you might think. AKU Shaper have video tutorials on youtube, and the software is free (yes you can get paid versions, but the free version is great for learning). If you get into it and want any help, contact me via the FFW Website and I'll try and point you in the right direction.

Despite what others may say, I do not believe you need to know how to shape by hand to use design software. Play around in it and you'll soon get the hand of it ... and besides, why spend hours covered in foam dust, when a machine will cut it for you for less than the cost of a carton of beer.

Youtube again has heaps of videos on how to glass, sand, install fins, etc ... someone has even put up the shaping 101, glassing 101 video's which were the industry first 'how to' by JC from Hawaii.

or, you can always outsource the glassing...

It is very satisfying when you can produce your own 'custom' surfboard. Better still when it has cost you WAY less then an off the shelf board :)

wingnut2443 wrote:

mscs, and anyone else interested ...

Despite what others may say, I do not believe you need to know how to shape by hand to use design software.

Yes.....but you do need a good understanding of surfboard design , and that knowledge is the domain of experienced shapers who have done the numbers to understand it correctly......using software with out design knowledge will only produce dogs unless you copy someone else's work (which is common these days)......computers are only capable of doing what they're told , and nothing more .

I'd seriously recommend Formula Energy surfboards for durability mscs. They're also manufactured in a more environmentally friendly way (although I don't know the details). I've travelled around the world with their boards and found them incredibly tough. Great on airlines and in shallow reef breaks. No increase in weight and I've never noticed any increase in stiffness that some guys have mentioned. You can also option a hemp deck underlay which I've found makes the deck very resistant to depressions. The carbon rails are also highly ding resistant. For travelling and durability, I don't look past these boards. (I don't work for FE by the way, even though this sounds like an advert! )

http://formulaenergy.com.au/

wingnut2443 wrote:

mscs, and anyone else interested ...

'shaping' or as I call it 'designing' using computer software is a lot easier than you might think. AKU Shaper have video tutorials on youtube, and the software is free (yes you can get paid versions, but the free version is great for learning). If you get into it and want any help, contact me via the FFW Website and I'll try and point you in the right direction.

Despite what others may say, I do not believe you need to know how to shape by hand to use design software. Play around in it and you'll soon get the hand of it ... and besides, why spend hours covered in foam dust, when a machine will cut it for you for less than the cost of a carton of beer.

Youtube again has heaps of videos on how to glass, sand, install fins, etc ... someone has even put up the shaping 101, glassing 101 video's which were the industry first 'how to' by JC from Hawaii.

or, you can always outsource the glassing...

It is very satisfying when you can produce your own 'custom' surfboard. Better still when it has cost you WAY less then an off the shelf board :)

Thanks Wingnut, really good info. Might have a proper look at aku and see how it goes.

Hey Wingnut,
I've had a bit of a play around on the software, but haven't stepped up to get a blank cut. Have been a bit unsure I guess with what I'm putting out.
Do you play around much with the rails and with putting in concaves. Or just keep it basic and fine tune these details after its cut.
What AKU package do you think you need to sign up too.
Are the features in the backyarder OK for putting out a few boards.

cheers mate.

caml wrote:

Try 6 &6 & 6 oz deck with 2x 6 bottom &:stop trashing the planet once & for all . Surfers & pollution are hand in hand .

Caml .?

Yes I see . I must have counted wrong

Great research work as usual udo

Ive had six Firewire's and had a few other different epoxy boards and id never buy another new PU/Poly board the only buy PU/Poly boards i buy are vintage or super bargain second-hand boards.

IMO FW FST is about three times more durable than a local or standard made PU/Poly board and even more compared to light glassed boards like most of the big name brands Merricks, DHD,s etc.

Its pretty hard to ding them but they are not indestructible they can and do snap, I've snapped one but it was in a situation where any board would have snapped.

Performance wise from a construction aspect id say they don't feel as good or lively as a very light glassed PU/Poly board, but pretty similar to a standard PU/Poly board and much better than a very heavy glassed PU/Poly board.

Only thing i don't like about them is i guess the stigma that some people have and the logo its damn ugly and the fact i can't get custom sprays anymore.

I have got my last 3 boards with S-cloth. They have help up extremely well with regular 4oz glassing.

Until recently had all my PU/PE boards (lite but not pro lite foam) in S cloth 4+4 and 4
and have been very happy with durability

Switched to epoxy glassing and standard 4+4 and 4. durability a simuilar to S cloth - but lighter and definitely retained a bit more flex

Recent board when EPS and epoxy - ridiculously lite so glassed 6+4 and 6 . Still very lite and am expecting it to be durable
Picking up a PU board in same glass schedule as the EPS today so it will be interesting to see how the decks compare after a few months

I am starting to think you can go too lite

mcsc wrote:

eel wrote:

I have got my last 3 boards with S-cloth. They have help up extremely well with regular 4oz glassing.

Which shaper did you get the boards with s-cloth from eel?

MG (Mauricio Gill) on the Northern Beaches - Brookvale