Vaccinate or not

Yes I did

and can you hurry the fark up coz I need to go to sleep

So then you say:

" X said [insert words/claim at this citation]. This is wrong because of [instert words and citation]"

then

" Y said [insert words/claim at this citation]. This is wrong because of [instert words and citation]"

Than I have something precise to work with.

Whenever you get back..

To give you a heads up:

Basically I am saying that the Australia public has been propagandised with regards to vaccinations. Prof Martin wrote the book on it.

You're claiming he has zero credibility because he oversaw a PhD which you claim has no standing because you claim it links vaccinations to autism.

What ever citation you use to prove your claims, my first port of call is going to be Dr James Lyons-Wieler Editor in Chief- Science, Public Heath and the Law. And demolish what ever you put up by using some of the citation underpinning this: https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/vaccines-and-autism-is-the-scien...

so you may want to focus your claims on what I'm going to hit you with.

The will be the first port of call.

Just to give your a hand.

But you still need to play clean.

You still need to be precise, and cite your claim, because the area is so huge.

Jesus jack it’s not difficult.

You quoted a academic to support your “ argument” I use that word loosely and I’m being generous.
Read this slowly:

So called academic/s has referenced crockpot vaccine=autism sources to argue their case.

If one thinks this argument / citation has any merit then one is clearly unqualified to argue their case. As this argument / claim is bullshit.
If you support this position then your argument is bullshit. You need to find better sources as the above have been disproven time and time again

If you dispute the author supports this position contrary to my links and can show me then great. I am wrong.

If not I call your argument bullshit

Jack do you believe vaccines cause autism ?

Good News...Flu is flat-lining beneath base level in all continents.
Looks certain to be lowest recorded levels ever on Earth.
Did that big Bully Covid beat the fuck outta our Flu!
tbb noticed Oz Flu Stats were base lining...most odd as we hardly vaxed?
Then UK / US / Canada & on & on....

Not too many Nations are onto it & each think they must've got stats wrong & argue against result.
Most likely the lock downs as Low < > High any Vax don't matter....Flu is Low everywhere!
Oz flu vax rollout is lagging behind that other one we don't talk about...so World can't blame us!

Salute Katie Peek from Scientific American...she beat tbb to this worldwide Viral anomaly.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/flu-has-disappeared-worldwide...

tbb is happy to relay to Vaccinate or not... some verifiable Good News in a glum world of despair.
The World has cured the Flu...probably not...but still kinda good news...maybe!

Pretty sure someone's gonna say that's a sign of the Apocalypse...mark of the beast & they'd be right.
Irony is tbb can't shake the Flu...go figure why this idiot probably just proved he had Covid or worse.
Relax...haven't left the house for...how long is Covid incubation again...that & probably 2 years longer?

Anyhow! OZ Flu graph is base lining....maybe when the Gromz shoot up some AZ...we'll get a sneeze!
Pretty sure we can remould into another Health Crisis...somehow! Surely it's too good to be true!
https://www.immunisationcoalition.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/30Ju...

PS : Govt just informed tbb that Oz is growing older real fast with Aged Care Vax & Zero migrants.
States are threatening to close the loophole on Scomo's 100,000 Teenage Mutant Slaves.
So yeah! The Flu was supposed do it's thing on Senior Aussies...you know! Make us all a bit younger!
Looks like 2021 will smash 2020 lowest Deaths on record ...Govt / Treasurer are furious about that.
If flu won't do it's thing then Unvaxed Aged Care breaches & Outbreaks are gonna be front page news.
Pretty sure the crew can script their own ending...

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/panic-porn-dressed-science-exposing-t...

FFS @Bonsa,
Please stay on topic. What does what I think have anything to do with the science?

You've essentially claimed:
a) Martin and Wilyman have claimed that vaccines cause autism, and
b) that this claim wrong.

So to start with, provide your citation for both.

You're the one claiming "Zero credibility in the hard science or area of expertise"

So where is your hard science to back up your claims.

The ball is clearly in your court to do so.

You've made the claim, so make good on the substance.

I even provided you with the olive branch of where my citations will start as to assist you to focus your "hard science" argument, and to get the ball rolling.

Jack can you please stop trying to sound like an academic because you are doing it wrong. Give plain English a go- there's another suggestion for you. At least shortenism can speak coherently.

1. By asking me to provide "citations" that vaccines does not lead to vaccines I am going to assume that you believe vaccines = autism. I am also making this assumption based on the fact that you have avoided addressing it several times. No I am not going to provide you with link after link of evidence disproving this crackpot assertion. it would take a 8 year old 10 mins to determine this.

2. I provided (I am repeating myself now) 2 articles that claim your hero is linked to pseudo science statements, research and organisations. This is my proof. Do you dispute these articles?

Do you understand what I am saying Jack. I am going to really dumb it down for you. Anyone - especially an academic who suggests, references, associates or is linked with the vaccines=autism claim has ZERO credibility in the field of epidemiology or associated sciences. is def unqualified and is either dumb or believes in dumb shit.

a bit like you.

Clive Palmer's latest mail-out - expecting a recorded voice message and spam txts any day now.

image hosting

Yea Supa, there's always an angle with big Fatty...

the current state of disillusion, fear, confusion etc etc has all come about because of covid escapeing from quaranteened returned citizens, caused by insuficient ppe and training of frontline workers.
they must wear "bio" suits as per "china syndrome" movie, when they knockoff enter a decontamination shower the "dirty water" is decanted into a vessel then sterilysed before dumping in drains.
only then can they have a sense of security and not pass onto housemates etc when they go home at end of shift, at the moment all such brave and stoic covid responders have been let down by our leaders and rulers...full stop no ifs buts whatever.
gsco, i know aged care worker who does'nt want jab and heaps more the same, apparently.
you cannot force someone to take jab and the above ppe will put them all on the same safety level and make a better work environement instead of a divisive workforce.
our university educated ruleing classes are truly inept, 18mnths and they still stuff up!

Bonza anyone with half a brain would know that injecting an infant with a chemical concoction/ vaccine isn’t going to end well all of the time. I mean it’s common sense and a hard decision for any parent about at what point you might introduce into your kids bloodstream. So why are you so staunch anti on the vaccine / autism connection? Science is always right until it’s wrong, then it’s adjusted and right again until it’s wrong and righted again, so on and so forth. There’s every chance that autism is related to vaccines.

Lowest ever Flu Stats come with a shopfront warning...(Too good to be true!)
This article Repeats that Flu is flat-lining worldwide & most likely due to lock-down measures.
Also says not to throw caution to the wind...re: CDC : Vaxerz are free to Superspread USA...
https://abc7news.com/flu-season-2021-how-effective-is-the-vaccine-deaths...

Recent Example : Posh pre Pandemic Flu Strains died off as tuff raw Flu Strains now muscle into Town.

Recent Norovirus / RSV (Reverse) Summer Outbreak Example
Australia All East / South : Started slow from Aug 2020 > (RSV Norovirus Peak) April 2021
Totalled 1,000's Day care centres ending in Hazmat Municipal Pool Chemical Warfare....Kiddie Covid.

US - Feb 2020 - April 2020 (60-80% down) & onwards
13th May 2021 - CDC > Masks Off for Vaxerz > (Bingo!) RSV Outbreaks are Skyrocketing...
CDC "Unmasked Vaxerz" Summer Flu Bug rates are dwarfing Peak Winter Rates...
https://www.cdc.gov/surveillance/nrevss/rsv/natl-trend.html

All can see that graph is skyrocketing off the page...so why No RSV Crisis News Headlines?
It's ripping thru....United States...tbb had a list of states but soon become closer to all than some.
More than that...the word is that seldom is it counted...Yeah! All see the stats are large enough thanx!
https://www.axios.com/doctors-warn-rsv-childrens-health-cases-pandemic-5...

CDC : (Love American Style) Fully Vaxed { Burn your Masks } Feel Free to Spread your Efficacy Rights.
Only Fully Covid Vaxed VIPs are permitted to go maskless to spread this record sickness & disease..
CDC now call for superspreading Unmasked Vaxerz exhibiting Flu like Symptoms to be Tested for RSV.
Soon enough Joe will rope in his Freeloading Vaxerz back into Isolation, just so they don't kill each other.

Just to put a downtown face on the Vaxerz Flu Outbreaks...
These Stats were recorded 13th May (Month Approx) & have not yet appeared on CDC Flu Stats.
If Shopfront stats translate into Flu cases then CDC Mask free loons just released a WR Flu Pandemic.
Kidz Cough Medicine sales spike 564%
Vapourizer sales spike 78%
Adult Cold Remedies sales spike 80%
Chest Rub sales spike 78%

So it seems that all this social isolation has made humans more vulnerable to common Human disease.
CDC's puny free living Vaxerz just got clobbered by the common Cold & are now to weak for Delta.
Clueless CDC should be fronting The Hague...time after time these maniacs line up sheeple as skittles.
They know what they've done alright...Now also gotta Test Unmasked sneezing Vaxerz for RSV.

Double the Crisis & Health resource mid Pandemic just for a laugh...coz it's just play money.
You know...to kinda cement over their CDC Mask Free VIP Vaxerz RSV Pandemic.
https://gizmodo.com/previously-common-diseases-are-bouncing-back-after-a...

All fully vaxed Nations are increasingly masking up against Variants & now even the Common Cold.
The longer the World stays apart ...the more disease prone it becomes to every puny virus...
The longer Big Pharma keeps us apart the more Drugs they can sell to put us back together. Win! Win!
No! The experts never told us or factored in this massive growing isolation immunity cost blowout...

UK are in lockdown - a/h Phoneline....shows some have still been out & about...
20 June 2021 Peak Reporting - 250/day breathing difficulty + 1,200/day Acute Respiratory Infection.
Put that into perspective, these desperate Patient Stats are surpassing UK Peak Covid Stats...
Call it Flu / RSV / Covid but UK are right now sicker than ever & never been more infectious.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Sure the Media can paper mache those stats...& scream for Passports.
Boris is armed with same stats & it's just plain mad to set these sickest ever Brits onto the World stage!

Israel's future population shows Mothers failing to pass " Usual RSV immunity " to babies.
Same as US outbreaks are in reverse season stats...Vaccinated Israel are going back to Masks...
https://middleeast.in-24.com/News/amp/39818

This is no longer just about Covid Passports...Humans are now exposed to all disease like never before.
The longer we lockdown the longer we become more infectious to each other.
Humans can isolate from the virus but our immunity is in stasis as Variants & Diseases mutate...
Almost as if all old school diseases are now presenting as fatal to our less worldly human species.
After a year...as soon as you walk out the door a Butterfly's fart lays you out for 3 weeks...heavy man!
We see the same with Arctic / Space Station crews needing to get their immunity back up to speed.
Earth needs Test Pilot Rock Stars moshing A-Z exotic microbes amongst the masses.
The quest is on for rebuilding immunity / Tests > that account for all disease not just Covid.

No longer a Covid Vax War thingy...this is ramping as a War against our own shadows of former selves.
Pretty soon only those with "Measured Immunity" (Antibodies) against world diseases will travel.

This is a fitting "current" example from tbb's Qld...recall antibiotics resistance was & still is the key!
1999 Whooping Cough Vax ramped Kidz Food Allergies...Qldurrz are trialling an old kick back brew!
If successful will restore immunity to kidz to fight off the Peanut Butter Plague.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/older-version-of-whooping-cough-vaccine-...

Soon have Blue Light test Queues for Dandruff checks > Armpit Sniffers > Deadly Pimple Outbreaks
tbb salutes mentor Poly Styrene {RIP}...The Real Expert...40 years ahead of today's Experts.

there no point arguing with you short. you r in way too deep. lost. i'd have better chances flying to the moon.

i only touched base with jack as I gave him the benefit of the doubt.. reckon he's more stupid then crazy though - there's hope.

all the best on your trip

Shortenism just for one minute let's agree that vaccinations cause autism. What then??? So we stop vaccinating kids and start having to put up with say measles outbreaks again. So during these outbreaks how many pregnant women will become sick, and worse still, have this disease affect their new born. So now we reach a cross roads don't we?? Autistic kids or birth defective or dead kids. So if the autism conspiracy movement can produce scientific data (Andrew Wakefield sure didn't) of what the statistics are on this link then after a few years of the measles doing its rounds we can compare the data and maybe choose the path of least harm for our kiddies can't we.

Great song tbb ! Your post takes me to HG Wells aliens and how they met their end in War of the Worlds

Shortenism, maybe have a squiz here. And that graph only shows the past 30-odd years.
Stats from the past 100 years are something else again.

https://ourworldindata.org/vaccination

I really don't know how anyone can argue with these figures.

There is no evidence of a link between vaccinations and autism, and even if there were, it still wouldn't remotely stack up against the clear success and efficacy of vaccinations.

https://www.phrp.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/NB97025.pdf

Bonsa,

We've both found the way that the other engages to be frustrating. In my view, it is poor form to stoop to name calling.

I find it frustrating that you made the original claims in the name of "hard science", then didn't direct me, or other readers, to the relevant quotes of Martin or Wilyman's that you are referring to.

The contents of which would form the basis of our debate.
Because you claim, that their claims (which you don't provide access to) given them zero creditability.

So I ask you to show me their words that you are referring to. That is a very reasonable and fair request.

I put that request to you several times, and instead of playing clean, you change the goal posts to be about what I personally believe pertaining to the link, or lack of link, between vaccines and autism.

Remember here, I'm originally and essentially talking about the propagandised information environment we're living in. Because it makes it so hard to have respectful and reasonable conversations.

So we've jump from the topic of the propaganda shitstorm we're all living in and trying to have these conversations in , to the topic Wilyman's PhD and the assertion you've claimed that it states that vaccines are linked to autism. This was via linking the supervisor of Wilyman's PhD, whom I referred to regarding propaganda.

You then accuse me of not sticking to the point.

So I repeatedly return to your original claim by asking you to show the words of Wilyman and Martin that you are referring to.

Instead of doing this, you put words into my mouth, and call me a dumb shit.

How can care about your opinion when, in my view, you're obviously hear to for the purpose of proving that you are right.

What if the area of your concern is science that has intentionally not been done yet?

Your original claim is:

"Prof Brian Martin - supervisor of pseudo (social) science doctorate Wilyman - who links vaccines to autism. Zero credibility in the hard science or area of expertise."

When you are ready to show me their words, and then link peer reviewed articles with authority (that is, not New Matilda or Australian Sceptics) that proves why what they are saying is wrong, then I will be ready to look at that material, and have a go a wrangling with it, with peer reviewed 'hard science' as you put it.

If it takes you a while to do that. That is sincerely ok. my email address is kukuthaypan at gmail.com just drop me a line when you're done.

It's of course cool to be frustrated and to reasonably express those frustrations, but, as a fellow community member, I do request you bring a bit more respect to the space and the people.

Not because I care about what you think of me.

But because, essentially, we are all brothers and sisters in this shitstorm.

One thing I do believe, is that we are all doing our very very best to understand what is going on, as to then act accordingly for our families and community.

I believe we all share a very deep sense of care and responsibility.

And that we are trying to work it out the very best we can in a shitstorm of vested interests, corruption, propaganda, as well as excellent, intelligent, good-hearted, right-minded, medical professionals who are working in a system that many of them find utterly corrupted by big Pharma, and of course, there are many, maybe most, who share a world view that is congruent with the narrative of the establishment.

Personally, when I look across the establishment, I don't see a system that puts the well-being of people, community, and the environment at the centre.

I see an establishment that prioritises profit above all else.

So of course I am skeptical of what the establishment says is the best for my family, our families, our communities.

The planet is burning, and there are barbaric lunatics at the helm.

Hi Andy, I don't assume you've got the time, but if you happen to, would you mind checking this article out and maybe providing some comments, as it is at odds with one of your several points:
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/vaccines-and-autism-is-the-scien...

all good if not of course.

All the best jack

and all the best to you Bonza

Yeah Gary agreed it’s a balance of the risks. My point is though when ya heads so far up your ass like bonza and your a one eyed ‘hard science’ supporter you’ve basically given up your ability to make common sense decisions for yourself. Case in point the millions rushing out to get injected with an experimental vaccine in hope something good comes of it.

It’s spelt “arse”. Thank you

What point is that Jackstance?
The one where I say there is no proven link between vaccinations and autism?

By the way, the article you've put up was written by a managing member of a private investment firm.
He also likes to make money by selling books about the supposed link/s between vaccination and autism.

Not a reputable fella.

Spot on Andy, no proven link at all. Those who peddle this falsehood should be ashamed of themselves and no doubt have blood on their hands. While I don't normally endorse such measures, I hope many business, countries and employers require covid vaccines - stupidity does not have a price frequently enough these days, it should be more expensive more often.

From the Autism Science Foundation, no less.

"Autism and Vaccines - Beyond the Autism/Vaccine Hypothesis: What Parents Need to Know about Autism Research

A decade ago most researchers agreed that we needed to study vaccines in relation to autism.
We had to reconcile the fact that the number of vaccines children were receiving was increasing, and at the same time, the number of children who were being diagnosed with autism also was on the rise.

Fortunately this was a question that could be studied – and answered – by science.

We looked at children who received vaccines and those who didn’t, or who received them on a different, slower schedule.
There was no difference in their neurological outcomes.
Multiple studies have been completed which investigated the measles, mumps and rubella vaccination in relation to autism.
Researchers have also studied thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative, to see if it had any relation to autism.

The results of studies are very clear; the data show no relationship between vaccines and autism."

And their scientific advisory board includes real doctors.
Just one example.

"Joseph Buxbaum, PhD is the G. Harold and Leila Y. Mathers Professor of Psychiatry, Neuroscience, and Genetic and Genomic Sciences, the Head of The Laboratory of Molecular Neuropsychiatry, and the Vice Chair for Research in the Department of Psychiatry at Mount Sinai.
Dr. Buxbaum is the Director of the Seaver Autism Center, and his research focuses on using techniques of molecular genetics and neurobiology to identify, and ultimately characterize, genes that contribute to autism susceptibility.
His laboratory has identified common and rare genetic variants that underlie ASD and has developed model systems in which novel therapeutics can be tested.
In addition, Dr. Buxbaum has taken a lead in several international consortia, most recently the Autism Sequencing Consortium aimed at sequencing 20,000 exomes, dedicated to advancing research in ASD. Dr. Buxbaum is the author of more than 200 publications, and he is co-editor-in-chief of the journal Molecular Autism."

https://autismsciencefoundation.org/about-asf/scientific-advisory-board/

No private investor firms.

Wow Andy. So naive. Autism science foundation is clearly just an arm of the autism - vaccination industrial complex, making money off people with autism.

And pizza shops and stuff.

Thank you AndyM for your contribution to the discussion.

Thank you for letting me know that Dr Handley is a managing member of a private investment firm, and that he makes money by selling books about the supposed link/s between vaccination and autism.

That would appear to be nothing on Dr. Paul Offit.

Dr. Paul Offit of sits on the board of the the Autism Science Foundation and speaks on their behalf. He is also a patent holder for the rotavirus vaccine.

You don't have to look too far to see that he make many many many any many many millions of dollars from vaccines. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-independent-are-vaccine-defenders/

He's also gone so far as to say babies can tolerate "10,000 vaccines at once." (Ibid)

Anyhow, the page from the Autism Science Foundation (ASF), One of Dr Offit's platforms, that you've quoted from, includes the quote:

"Autism and Vaccines - Beyond the Autism/Vaccine Hypothesis: What Parents Need to Know about Autism Research

A decade ago most researchers agreed that we needed to study vaccines in relation to autism.
We had to reconcile the fact that the number of vaccines children were receiving was increasing, and at the same time, the number of children who were being diagnosed with autism also was on the rise.

Fortunately this was a question that could be studied – and answered – by science.

We looked at children who received vaccines and those who didn’t, or who received them on a different, slower schedule.
There was no difference in their neurological outcomes.
Multiple studies have been completed which investigated the measles, mumps and rubella vaccination in relation to autism.
Researchers have also studied thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative, to see if it had any relation to autism.

The results of studies are very clear; the data show no relationship between vaccines and autism."

Here is the link to that particular page for anyone interest:
https://autismsciencefoundation.org/what-is-autism/autism-and-vaccines/

Beneath that quote, is a list of studies provided by the ASF to parents under the heading:
"Read the Science
Literature Reviews: Autism and Vaccines"

In that list is a study titled:

Safety of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines: A Two-Phased Study of Computerized Health Maintenance Organization Database
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dop...
Pediatrics
Thomas Verstraeten, MD
November 2003

The ASF is knowingly misrepresenting this study as conclusive evidence of the lack of association.

Thomas Verstraeten, MD, the author of that study, commonly called the “Verstraeten study,” reached a conclusion, that the study authors could neither prove nor disprove an association between mercury and vaccines, stating:

“The biological plausibility of the small doses of ethylmercury present in vaccines leading to increased risks of neurodevelopmental disorders is uncertain.”

When the Verstraeten study was published, the vaccine industry PR machine went into overdrive, declaring that a new study in Pediatrics had proven vaccines don’t cause autism. In fact, the study author was so irked by the way his findings were being misinterpreted that he took the extraordinary step of penning a letter to Pediatrics to complain. Dr. Thomas Verstraeten, the study author, wrote this letter [https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Reference-10-Verstrae... right before he left his position at the CDC to take a job with vaccine maker GlaxoSmithKline.

In the letter, he wrote:

"Surprisingly, however, the study is being interpreted now as negative [where “negative” implies no association was shown between thimerosal and autism] by many. . . . The article does not state that we found evidence against an association, as a negative study would. It does state, on the contrary, that additional study is recommended, which is the conclusion to which a neutral study must come. . . . A neutral study carries a very distinct message: the investigators could neither confirm nor exclude an association, and therefore more study is required."

It’s hard to understate how irresponsible and inaccurate it is that people like Dr. Paul Offit still routinely cite this study as “proof ” vaccines don’t cause autism, since the study only considered mercury level exposure in fully vaccinated kids, reached a neutral outcome, and recommended more work needed to be done. Further, the study did find that “tics” (a motor disorder) are in fact correlated to mercury levels, writing that “cumulative exposure at 3 months resulted in a significant positive association with tics.”

Lastly, the following quote is from the actual link that the ASF provide to support their reassurance to parents (read this very carefully):

"Results: In phase I at HMO A, cumulative exposure at 3 months resulted in a significant positive association with tics (relative risk [RR]: 1.89; 95% confidence interval [CI]: 1.05-3.38). At HMO B, increased risks of language delay were found for cumulative exposure at 3 months (RR: 1.13; 95% CI: 1.01-1.27) and 7 months (RR: 1.07; 95% CI: 1.01-1.13). In phase II at HMO C, no significant associations were found. In no analyses were significant increased risks found for autism or attention-deficit disorder.

Conclusions: No consistent significant associations were found between TCVs and neurodevelopmental outcomes. Conflicting results were found at different HMOs for certain outcomes. For resolving the conflicting findings, studies with uniform neurodevelopmental assessments of children with a range of cumulative thimerosal exposures are needed."

Again, following the PR misreps, Verstraeten wrote:

"Surprisingly, however, the study is being interpreted now as negative [where “negative” implies no association was shown between thimerosal and autism] by many. . . . The article does not state that we found evidence against an association, as a negative study would. It does state, on the contrary, that additional study is recommended, which is the conclusion to which a neutral study must come. . . . A neutral study carries a very distinct message: the investigators could neither confirm nor exclude an association, and therefore more study is required." https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Reference-10-Verstrae...

It would appear that the Autism Science Foundation is a PR mouthpiece for the vaccine industry. I have not even scratched the surface of its conflicts.

Regards.

Hi @Superfreak,

Respectfully, I really wish crew would give me the courtesy of actually reading what I am saying here.

The gist of what I am saying is that we, the public, are downstream from a propaganda shitstorm.

In my view, when I look at the world, I do not see multi-national corporations, or their lobbyists, or their representatives in OUR parliamentary seats, or in University's acting in the interests of families, communities, and the planet. They serve profit.

Like I've said: the planet is burning, and there are barbaric lunatics at the helm.

Further, given a) the accusation of "crackpot conspiracy theorists, and b) the flourishing of disinformation and crew eating that shit up:

The greatest conspiracies are open and notorious — not theories, but practices expressed through law and policy, technology, and finance. Counterintuitively, these conspiracies are more often than not announced in public. They’re dutifully reported in our newspapers; they’re bannered onto the covers of our magazines; updates on their progress are scrolled across our screens — all with such regularity as to render us unable to relate the banality of their methods to their aggressively greedy ambitions.

These conspiracies order, and disorder, our lives; and yet they can’t compete for attention with digital graffiti about pedophile Satanists in the basement of a DC pizzeria.

This, in sum, is our problem: the truest conspiracies meet with the least opposition.

Or to put it another way, conspiracy practices — the methods by which true conspiracies such as gerrymandering, or the debt industry, or mass surveillance are realized — are almost always overshadowed by conspiracy theories: those malevolent falsehoods that in aggregate can erode civic confidence in the existence of anything certain or verifiable.

The recognition of a conspiracy — whether true or false — entails accepting that not only are things other than what they seem, but they are systematized, regulated, intentional, and even logical. It’s only by treating conspiracies not as “plans” or “schemes” but as mechanisms for ordering the disordered that we can hope to understand how they have so radically displaced the concepts of “rights” and “freedoms” as the fundamental signifiers of democratic citizenship.

Especially concerning is the way that false conspiracies absolve their followers of engaging with the truth. Citizenship in a conspiracy-society doesn’t require evaluating a statement of proposed fact for its truth-value, and then accepting it or rejecting it accordingly, so much as it requires the complete and total rejection of all truth-value that comes from an enemy source, and the substitution of an alternative plot, narrated from elsewhere.

The concept of 'the enemy' is fundamental to conspiracy thinking — and to the various taxonomies of conspiracy itself. Jesse Walker, an editor at Reason and author of The United States of Paranoia: A Conspiracy Theory (2013), offers the following categories of enemy-based conspiracy thinking:

1) “Enemy Outside,” which pertains to conspiracy theories perpetrated by or based on actors scheming against a given identity-community from outside of it
2)“Enemy Within,” which pertains to conspiracy theories perpetrated by or based on actors scheming against a given identity-community from inside of it
3)“Enemy Above,” which pertains to conspiracy theories perpetrated by or based on actors manipulating events from within the circles of power (government, military, the intelligence community, etc.)
4)"Enemy Below," which pertains to conspiracy theories perpetrated by or based on actors from historically disenfranchised communities seeking to overturn the social order
5)“Benevolent Conspiracies,” which pertains to extra-terrestrial, supernatural, or religious forces dedicated to controlling the world for humanity's benefit (similar forces from Beyond who work to the detriment of humanity Walker might categorize under “Enemy Above”)

I'm not sure that these can adequately address the often-alternating, dependent nature of conspiracies, whereby a true conspiracy (e.g. the 9/11 hijackers) triggers a false conspiracy (e.g. 9/11 may have been an inside job), and a false conspiracy (e.g. Iraq has weapons of mass destruction) triggers a true conspiracy (e.g. the invasion of Iraq).

Further, most of the categories of conspiracy-thinking are based on the logic that most intelligence agencies use when they spread disinformation, treating falsity and fiction as levers of influence and confusion that can plunge a populace into powerlessness, making them vulnerable to new beliefs — and even new governments.

But this top-down approach fails to take into account that the predominant conspiracy theories today are developed from the bottom-up, plots concocted not behind the closed doors of intelligence agencies but on the open Internet by private citizens, by people.​​​​​​​

In sum, conspiracy theories do not instil powerlessness by persistent instruction, so much as they are the signs and symptoms of powerlessness itself.

This leads us to other types, which classify conspiracies not by their content, or intent, but by the desires that cause one to subscribe to them.
https://edwardsnowden.substack.com/p/conspiracy-pt1

In my view, some people on here are associating those of us doing our very best to work out the truth in a corrupt context with the 'crackpot crew'.

Conversely, to believe in any conspiracy, whether true or false, is to believe in a system or sector run not by popular consent but by an elite, acting in its own self-interest.

Personally, I do believe that Big Pharma are not run by popular consent, but are an elite syndicate acting in its own self interest. And that a prime consequence of that is that public health policy puts profit before people. Otherwise, for example, Ivermectin would be commonly and uncontroversely referred to in the range of solutions in the narrative.

However, the narrative is managed by interests that serve profit, not people and the planet.

Hence Martin's and Wilyman's critiques of propaganda and public health policy.

As to being dragged into the argument as to whether vaccines cause autism or not.

I hope you can appreciate that I am saying "that before we have those conversations, in my view, we need to discuss, acknowledge and address the propaganda shitstorm that is so effective on our human psyches. We then need to work out how to create an information environment based on truth."

Lastly, asking me if I have any stats on percentages of how many kids are getting autism from vaccines, in my view, not only AGAIN pushes words into my mouth and disregards what I am actually speaking about, but perhaps it is potentially the wrong question.

As exemplified above, the point of the letter written Dr Verstraeten letter [https://bolenreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Reference-10-Verstrae...
Is that it makes a very clear distinction between a) a "negative", i.e. "no" association in the link between thimerosal and autism, and b) a neutral study carries a very distinct message: the investigators could neither confirm nor exclude an association. (Noting, that the study did find a "significant increase in "Ties" and delayed speech.)

Which is also a central element to Wilyman critique: the misrepresentation of purposefully Undone Research.

I won't go into it now, as this is a very very long post, but I trust you appreciate the matrix of issues arising for communities when profit is king, and those with all the power own and manage the narratives - it is the power to control our beliefs.

Here is the relevant part of the letter mentioned above:
"Surprisingly, however, the study is being interpreted now as negative [where “negative” implies no association was shown between thimerosal and autism] by many. . . . The article does not state that we found evidence against an association, as a negative study would. It does state, on the contrary, that additional study is recommended, which is the conclusion to which a neutral study must come. . . . A neutral study carries a very distinct message: the investigators could neither confirm nor exclude an association, and therefore more study is required."

love your work jack stance...

(though you are getting a bit wordy for my liking... haha)

autism undoubtably has a genetic componant, passed on from the male of the union from memory...

I think it was steven pinker that said...

genes load the gun, and environmental influences may, or may not, pull the trigger...

those environmental triggers could be anything, including, diet, trauma, drugs, alcohol, medicine, vaccines...

as jack stance's displayed research shows, that trigger is not yet determined, and that inconclusive research is open to interpretation... and it seems some read a lot into their interpretations... which is understandable, people want certainty, people have jobs to do, ...and public policy makers weigh up probabilities to give public directions and assurances...

people want certainty... reasons, causes, things to attribute misfortunes to, ...blame...

a public discussion about what the possible triggers of autism could be would be ideal in a mature society, seems we are not there yet, too many competing agendas for that conversation to take place... and the vaccine part is only one of them...

and fwiw, that autistic gene set isn't nessesarily a bad thing, many gifted people and their children have that gene set, it's how the flower developes from seeding to blooming that matters...

invermectin:

has been shut down, there's no doubt about that...

the causes? ...1/3 tds, ...and 2/3 the 'arrangements' between big pharma, government, media to push vaccines as the only answer to the pandemic, so emergency response rules are actioned, thus protecting and encouraging big pharma... one of supafreak's more legit. links spelled it all out, I'll try dig it out later if I find time

there are competing narratives, there are smart well educated crew on the inner, there are smart well educated crew on the outer...

and everyone is biased by their experiences, education and pay packet.., no matter how much you think you are not...

trying to belittle people with... conspiracy theorist... tin foil hat... qanon... break out the alfoil... etc. etc... isn't really helpful... and I must say, has become incredibly tedious...

especially lately, as the conspiracy / not conspiracy ledger seems to be getting all out of whack over recent incidents

having said all that, statements like this can easily be interpreted as lizard people stuff...

"...Personally, I do believe that Big Pharma are not run by popular consent, but are an elite syndicate acting in its own self interest. And that a prime consequence of that is that public health policy puts profit before people..."

that 'elite' word is so loaded nowadays...

I know what you mean, but...

Im sure these big pharma goons think they are doing the right thing, same with the WHO, faucci and co... a public service, whilst turning a buck, ...mutual benefit, some symbioisis, bettering the world through science etc...

but clearly, sometimes... humans just get stuff wrong...

The answer is zero. Vaccines lead to ZERO cases of autism. Those that promote or support otherwise are wrong.
Which begs the question. If they are wrong on that. what else are they wrong about. I can answer that too. Pretty much all their crackpot theories.
If you can be bothered to actually get the nutter to stick to each and every one of their argument's point - and then systemically work your way through the plethora of crazy claims - you can easily demonstrate they are wrong on each and every point.
Jack's comments above are a good example. he is unable or unwilling to provide evidence that vaccines = autism - so he avoids the point with feigned insult, but will support narratives that they do linking irrelevant stories together to support that notion. This is despite AndyM earlier refuting his claim or support of with clear evidence. Jack will be upset that I said this.

Hold on to your hat - they all start out nice and polite happy to mock your evidence and the 'system', but get very, very thin skinned when something they claim is refuted. it shakes their whole world view. they feel insulted. "you don't know me!!" is an oft heard response. they don't deal well with criticism of them or their heroes
....but in the end you come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter how many articles, authority sources, papers and citations you provide as your proof. The nutter simply will not, cannot believe it. This is because they don't believe or trust any authority. They only see conspiracy.

They think because we have been lied to before by authority it thus means everything they tell us now is also lies.

There is really interesting psychology why conspiracy believers think the way they do- fear, refusal of authority, past trauma etc. The sheer arrogance is impressive. They think they know more about these matters than the experts. More often than not they are well educated. but intelligent people can and do believe in dumb shit.

a lot of the dumb shit is funny

The vaccines = autism one is dangerous though and we are seeing real damage across the globe in the influence of this conspiracy. There's probably a new or future parent right now reading this crap above and feeling scared about what to do. Its particularly disheartening, actually it really pisses me off when parents in the safe comfort of having vaccinated their kids and have been vaccinated themselves entertain such conspiracies.

Entertain and promoting such ideas to the vulnerable and stupid makes you complicit in the consequences of not vaccinating your kids in my view.

complicit in what? google kids and babies with whooping cough and measles.

Thanks for the posts Bonza. Appeciate the time and patience put in.

About time Australia changed its approach and detailed a (phased) plan to restore sanity, sensibility and normalcy. This week seems to have been a tipping and turning point. Reason and intelligence may in fact prevail after all...

Yep bonza, you've taken the stage and got some clapping, cheers, whistles and ass slaps from the SN team! Nothing short of an OSCAR nomination they are suggesting...

While that's happening I'm throwing cabbages and banana peels at the screen.

How about this theory. The human body has a miraculous immune response system, nothing short of perfect. But the propaganda machine has done a fantastic job at eroding confidence in man and wombman (remember a hu-man is a shade or shadow of a man but you overlooked that bit from the day you were introduced to the word), through relentless fear campaigning, through a limited scientific lens, through acidification of the body and through very targeted funding and narrowing of the public information field.

So you can rave on all day with your SN fan club about the fear propelled by those questioning the view of modern hard core science but in reality like history shows, its all smoke and mirrors to get you into a system of fuckery.

I sound like a negative fck a lot of the time but i'm not really.. Its just this shit show you are shovelling needs some checks and balances:)

the truth is bonza the science is inconclusive...

I think an adult conversation about drugs and alcohol while pregnant would be much more productive than talking about vaccines, ..
but for those looking for blame, that's a most confronting conversation...

I think talking about food and preservatives might be a more productive one too...

it's all about probabilities and risk...

and currently the probabilities and risk say you'd be fool not to vaccinate your kids, doesn't mean we can't talk about it...

as to corona vaccines...

we most certainly should be talking about it, they're new and unproven, the last thing you want to do is silence questions coming from people in the field, doctors on the front line

for the record

had the AZ vaccine recently, didn't want to really, in certain parts of oz I would have avoided it to the bitter end... but on a risk benefit analysis... I had it, and tbh, a small part of me is happy I had that one over the MRNA technology...

(and I think the get scotty crowd have totally overeacted to his seeming backflip that was a result of a change in conditions... reacting to a change in conditions is a good thing from where Im coming from...)

child all vaccinated too

and I have no idea what half of them are for

risk benefit analysis...