Australian churches, Victoria, Qld, ACT, New Zealand offer sanctuary to asylum seekers

floyd wrote:

Oh please Sleepster don't put words in my mouth ... I'll just raise the issue, ask the question, cast the bait and see what I can drag up, even raise the issue about available birth control in the camps just to add to "implied" accusation that these families are deliberately becoming pregnant without saying so ... Sleepster, you misunderstand me .....

This is what I find most morally repugnant. If you advocate for children being kept in these situations you are someone who advocates for a policy that actually, factually, realistically, pragmatically results in the rape of children.....yet.....yet....have the audacity to question the morality of people in this desperate situation.

Kids being raped = ok

Might have a baby inside detention = morally questionable

tonybarber wrote:

Indo...refreshing to see that you are trying to suggest solutions. That's the hard part.

Sheep and Floyd finally exposed on last night's news -

'Two protesters who suspended themselves from a Melbourne bridge with a banner imploring the federal government to let asylum seekers facing deportation stay in Australia are back on the ground.

Katherine Woskett, 25, and Hannah Patchett, 22, began their protest on the Yarra Bend Road overpass on the Eastern Freeway alongside a "let them stay" banner at 7.30am on Thursday.

They want to stop the imminent deportation of 267 asylum seekers, including 37 babies, from Australia to Nauru.' (9NEWS)

Glad you got down safely fellas, I mean gals.

tim foilat wrote:

floyd wrote:

Oh please Sleepster don't put words in my mouth ... I'll just raise the issue, ask the question, cast the bait and see what I can drag up, even raise the issue about available birth control in the camps just to add to "implied" accusation that these families are deliberately becoming pregnant without saying so ... Sleepster, you misunderstand me .....

This is what I find most morally repugnant. If you advocate for children being kept in these situations you are someone who advocates for a policy that actually, factually, realistically, pragmatically results in the rape of children.....yet.....yet....have the audacity to question the morality of people in this desperate situation.

Kids being raped = ok

Might have a baby inside detention = morally questionable

Tin foil hat

I assume you are talking about this story?

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/02/08/abc-apologises-nauru-rape-...

"The ABC has apologised for wrongly reporting that a five-year-old child was allegedly raped on Nauru."

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2016/02/08/nauru-doctor-stands-story

"Immigration department official Cheryl-anne Moy told a senate hearing on Monday the matter involved a child who was at least 10 and was assaulted by a child two years older. Ms Moy said there was no allegation of rape."

A 10 year old child messes with a 12 year old child and somehow you figure it's authorities fault ?

I think its pretty obvious that our government doesn't want anyone raped or sexually abused, and i sure don't condone these kind of things.

oh this most recent in the ongoing rapes. A 12 year old was raped and a five year old allegedly sexually assaulted, both are being returned to the detention centres to live with the attackers. The abc got the two stories mixed up.

you must have missed the interview with the doctors who risked a jail term to discuss these cases, you should take the time. she mentions something like 1 sexual assault reported every 16 days!

the government condones putting children in this situation, if you don't good for you

I'm reluctant to write this because I can already hear sheepdog "that's just hearsay" but it's bloody good hearsay, so fuck it. met an interesting guy today, iraquii, refugee, been in oz for a long time, family escaped an old conflict, applied to UN, finally got the nod, made it to oz. worked all over the place with refugees, detention centres in oz and the islands. interesting to hear him say his family left with no idea of UN and its processes etc. just escaped the war to another country, only found out after 20 years in a third country about UN, there was no application forms etc. just had to write a letter and put it in a random "magic box" and waited, and waited...., eventually the number came up, processed within a year.

had a lot to say about economic migrants and refugees, with no coaxing from me at all!! he said conservatively at least 50% of people on the islands were economic refugees. he seemed to think when you're fleeing for your life you're not nearly as prepared as the people he worked with. "real refugees are in the camps".

talked about the fire. how everybody knew stuff was gonna happen well in advance, and the centre was evacuated hours prior. couldn't believe the 100 big strong ex soldier security guy types didn't stop the 20 trouble causing new arrivals, thought it was all a set up, that both sides milked for all it was worth. the fire lead to a smoking ban in the centre. which lead to single women performing sexual favours for cigarettes, offering not forced. said yes there was the sexual assault where locals raped a woman but much of the claims were a beat up for political gain. he was very disappointed the workers made it into a big deal mainly because they were good workers doing a good job and was worried who'd replace them. said the complainants were all young, naive and idealistic, with no refugee experience, also lacking life experience to look at the big picture. said every event we hear about is both sides gaming the system for as much political gain as possible. had damming words for lawyers and advocates seeding ideas in the asylum seekers heads, reckons the social workers wrote the protest signs.

also said it is a horrible place, stinking hot and humid with limited medical care, so while he was dubious about his clients, he still felt it was a terrible way to treat people. said when everyone was in tents, often flooded by monsoon rains, staff would go hide in the bush and cry.

was very dubious about unaccompanied minors, saying most had an older relative not far away. he reckons half of them were not even minors, just clean shaven baby face crew who could pull it off, he knew one of them was 30, but questions were rarely asked once you presented as a minor, reckons they all used to joke about it once they're accepted.

I don't support the detention centres, there's got to be a better way to do stuff, but clearly both sides of this argument play with the truth to make a case. if you've spent real time in a third world village, away from bule bubbles, seeing poor people in real subsistence living, it's hard to accept the advocates beefed up assessments of these places, as we all know, oz government has to provide a reasonable level of food and accommodation. a level probably well above what the local guards go home to after work, which is a recipe for disaster. how can we expect third world guards to behave as we'd expect Australians to act? even with people from the same culture and country in a set up envieronment, that notorious university experiment, showed when you have guards and inmates things get nasty, it's human nature working both ways. put it on an isolated island throw in gross inequalities and various cultures it's gonna get ugly, uglier than fearing for your life in a war zone? well depends how comfortable an existence you're used to, and expecting, I'd take the camp. yep the process times are ridiculous but still better than being dead, a lot of the problems seem to be expectations and people with agendas pissing in their ear.

it's absolutely unacceptable to have kids in detention, but for me it's just as unacceptable that people with money leap frog people who have spent years in refugee camps. their war experience was probably just as bad as any syrian's experience then they have years or decades of uncertainty in a hell hole camp wondering what will happen to them, sounds worse than two years of uncertainty in a fully catered donga, but hey, I've got no compassion.

sypkan wrote:

I'm reluctant to write this because I can already hear sheepdog "that's just hearsay" but it's bloody good hearsay, so fuck it. met an interesting guy today, afghani, refugee, been in oz for a long time, family escaped the old afghan conflict, applied to UN, finally got the nod, made it to oz. worked all over the place with refugees, detention centres in oz and the islands. interesting to hear him say his family left with no idea of UN and its processes etc. just escaped the war to another country, only found out after 20 years in a third country about UN, there was no application forms etc. just had to write a letter and put it in a random "magic box" and waited, and waited...., eventually the number came up, processed within a year.

had a lot to say about economic migrants and refugees, with no coaxing from me at all!! he said conservatively at least 50% of people on the islands were economic refugees. he seemed to think when you're fleeing for your life you're not nearly as prepared as the people he worked with. "real refugees are in the camps".

talked about the fire. how everybody knew stuff was gonna happen well in advance, and the centre was evacuated hours prior. couldn't believe the 100 big strong ex soldier security guy types didn't stop the 20 trouble causing new arrivals, thought it was all a set up, that both sides milked for all it was worth. the fire lead to a smoking ban in the centre. which lead to single women performing sexual favours for cigarettes, offering not forced. said yes there was the sexual assault where locals raped a woman but much of the claims were a beat up for political gain. he was very disappointed the workers made it into a big deal , yes because he lost his job, but mainly because they were good workers doing a good job and was worried who'd replace them. said the complainants were all young, naive and idealistic, with no refugee experience, also lacking life experience to look at the big picture. said every event we hear about is both sides gaming the system for as much political gain as possible. had damming words for lawyers and advocates seeding ideas in the asylum seekers heads, reckons the social workers wrote the protest signs.

also said it is a horrible place, stinking hot and humid with limited medical care, so while he was dubious about his clients, he still felt it was a terrible way to treat people. said when everyone was in tents, often flooded by monsoon rains, staff would go hide in the bush and cry.

was very dubious about unaccompanied minors, saying most had an older relative not far away. he reckons half of them were not even minors, just clean shaven baby face crew who could pull it off, he knew one of them was 30, but questions were rarely asked once you presented as a minor, reckons they all used to joke about it once they're accepted.

I don't support the detention centres, there's got to be a better way to do stuff, but clearly both sides of this argument play with the truth to make a case. if you've spent real time in a third world village, away from bule bubbles, seeing poor people in real subsistence living, it's hard to accept the advocates beefed up assessments of these places, as we all know, oz government has to provide a reasonable level of food and accommodation. a level probably well above what the local guards go home to after work, which is a recipe for disaster. how can we expect third world guards to behave as we'd expect Australians to act? even with people from the same culture and country in a set up envieronment, that notorious university experiment, showed when you have guards and inmates things get nasty, it's human nature working both ways. put it on an isolated island throw in gross inequalities and various cultures it's gonna get ugly, uglier than fearing for your life in a war zone? well depends how comfortable an existence you're used to, and expecting, I'd take the camp. yep the process times are ridiculous but still better than being dead, a lot of the problems seem to be expectations and people with agendas pissing in their ear.

it's absolutely unacceptable to have kids in detention, but for me it's just as unacceptable that people with money leap frog people who have spent years in refugee camps. their war experience was probably just as bad as any syrian's experience then they have years or decades of uncertainty in a hell hole camp wondering what will happen to them, sounds worse than two years of uncertainty in a fully catered donga, but hey, I've got no compassion.

Yeah you can guarantee things are often not what they seem, but even when things are quite obvious people choose to ignore them or deny them, the thing is it's often very hard for us to understand the true perspective and reality because we are so detached from it.

Lets assume it is true what he was saying and 50% of those in centres are not genuine and 40% are still passed as being genuine because it can't really be proved they are not.

Every person that is let in is one true refugee that is not given a place.

I really think some sort of system like the Malaysian solution is a key to al this, the reality is those who arrive by boat may not be true refugees, but i think its very safe to assume those in refugee camps are.

Fer chrissakes sheep and tim, please stop posting selfies on this site!

PS For a dose of reality, read sypkan's post (if you can through your tears).

tim foilat wrote:

oh this most recent in the ongoing rapes. A 12 year old was raped and a five year old allegedly sexually assaulted, both are being returned to the detention centres to live with the attackers. The abc got the two stories mixed up.

you must have missed the interview with the doctors who risked a jail term to discuss these cases, you should take the time. she mentions something like 1 sexual assault reported every 16 days!

the government condones putting children in this situation, if you don't good for you

Have you got a link?

If i google the issue those links are the most recent articles.

Sadly these type of incidents are not confined to a detention centre, there is no society in the world that does not have these problems.

Yes true these people are technically in our care, but at the same time these people need to have a degree of privacy, unless you want to take that right of privacy away from them?

indo-dreaming wrote:

tim foilat wrote:

oh this most recent in the ongoing rapes. A 12 year old was raped and a five year old allegedly sexually assaulted, both are being returned to the detention centres to live with the attackers. The abc got the two stories mixed up.

you must have missed the interview with the doctors who risked a jail term to discuss these cases, you should take the time. she mentions something like 1 sexual assault reported every 16 days!

the government condones putting children in this situation, if you don't good for you

Have you got a link?

If i google the issue those links are the most recent articles.

Sadly these type of incidents are not confined to a detention centre, there is no society in the world that does not have these problems.

Yes true these people are technically in our care, but at the same time these people need to have a degree of privacy, unless you want to take that right of privacy away from them?

There's the link ID, the video is about halfway down the page....http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-02-02/boy-allegedly-raped-on-nauru-could...

The compound looks pretty full on ey?

false dichotomy, look it up, there is no reason people can't have privacy AND safety.

sypkan wrote:

I'm reluctant to write this because I can already hear sheepdog "that's just hearsay" but it's bloody good hearsay, so fuck it. met an interesting guy today, afghani, refugee, been in oz for a long time, family escaped the old afghan conflict, applied to UN, finally got the nod, made it to oz. worked all over the place with refugees, detention centres in oz and the islands. interesting to hear him say his family left with no idea of UN and its processes etc. just escaped the war to another country, only found out after 20 years in a third country about UN, there was no application forms etc. just had to write a letter and put it in a random "magic box" and waited, and waited...., eventually the number came up, processed within a year.

had a lot to say about economic migrants and refugees, with no coaxing from me at all!! he said conservatively at least 50% of people on the islands were economic refugees. he seemed to think when you're fleeing for your life you're not nearly as prepared as the people he worked with. "real refugees are in the camps".

talked about the fire. how everybody knew stuff was gonna happen well in advance, and the centre was evacuated hours prior. couldn't believe the 100 big strong ex soldier security guy types didn't stop the 20 trouble causing new arrivals, thought it was all a set up, that both sides milked for all it was worth. the fire lead to a smoking ban in the centre. which lead to single women performing sexual favours for cigarettes, offering not forced. said yes there was the sexual assault where locals raped a woman but much of the claims were a beat up for political gain. he was very disappointed the workers made it into a big deal , yes because he lost his job, but mainly because they were good workers doing a good job and was worried who'd replace them. said the complainants were all young, naive and idealistic, with no refugee experience, also lacking life experience to look at the big picture. said every event we hear about is both sides gaming the system for as much political gain as possible. had damming words for lawyers and advocates seeding ideas in the asylum seekers heads, reckons the social workers wrote the protest signs.

also said it is a horrible place, stinking hot and humid with limited medical care, so while he was dubious about his clients, he still felt it was a terrible way to treat people. said when everyone was in tents, often flooded by monsoon rains, staff would go hide in the bush and cry.

was very dubious about unaccompanied minors, saying most had an older relative not far away. he reckons half of them were not even minors, just clean shaven baby face crew who could pull it off, he knew one of them was 30, but questions were rarely asked once you presented as a minor, reckons they all used to joke about it once they're accepted.

I don't support the detention centres, there's got to be a better way to do stuff, but clearly both sides of this argument play with the truth to make a case. if you've spent real time in a third world village, away from bule bubbles, seeing poor people in real subsistence living, it's hard to accept the advocates beefed up assessments of these places, as we all know, oz government has to provide a reasonable level of food and accommodation. a level probably well above what the local guards go home to after work, which is a recipe for disaster. how can we expect third world guards to behave as we'd expect Australians to act? even with people from the same culture and country in a set up envieronment, that notorious university experiment, showed when you have guards and inmates things get nasty, it's human nature working both ways. put it on an isolated island throw in gross inequalities and various cultures it's gonna get ugly, uglier than fearing for your life in a war zone? well depends how comfortable an existence you're used to, and expecting, I'd take the camp. yep the process times are ridiculous but still better than being dead, a lot of the problems seem to be expectations and people with agendas pissing in their ear.

it's absolutely unacceptable to have kids in detention, but for me it's just as unacceptable that people with money leap frog people who have spent years in refugee camps. their war experience was probably just as bad as any syrian's experience then they have years or decades of uncertainty in a hell hole camp wondering what will happen to them, sounds worse than two years of uncertainty in a fully catered donga, but hey, I've got no compassion.

So what your trying to say is that in your opinion it's "absolutely unnacceptable to have kids in detention."......and fast tracking your migratory route spending more money is unacceptable in the same sense.

Keeping children in detention = paying for a speedy migration = unnacceptable

Total confusion.

As for the rest of the dribble......"I don't support detention centres, BUT...."

Rape/sexual assault victims are young impressionable, naive and mostly lying?

Most of the children in the detention centres are not actually children?

Social workers and lawyers have an agenda?

Sypkan did you work for the Catholic Church during the 70s ?

sypkan wrote:

I'm reluctant to write.......

thanks for writing that sypkan.

any thoughts on having detention centres run by commercial companies (aka transfield)? is there a such thing as "balance" between profits-for-shareholders and humanity for asylum seekers.

I think it's going to be an interesting year in regard to this matter, we are suppose to go to an election late 2016 or early 2017. ( i think they are saying late 2016 is most likely)

Despite incidents along the way as discussed which have happened under both governments, it can't be denied the liberals policy on this issue has been largely very successful the numbers don't lie, we have less boats departing Indonesia we are not accepting people who arrive by boat hence not making the problem of people in detention bigger, and we have reduced numbers in detention both onshore and offshore which also includes children despite people having babies while in detention..

The only problem we have left in this area of the issue is the detention centres and those left in them, you would think it would be crazy for liberal to not find a solution to this before the next election, as if they did this would actually allow Liberal to be able to claim they have done exactly what they said they would and on top of that due to current events our refugee intake is at a historical high, so they could claim this too.

Its all pretty clever when you think about it. (no no Tim I'm talking politically nothing to do with thinking its clever putting people in detention)

Personally i think their holding off on settling those currently in detention and am expecting this to happen a few months before the election to distract from other issues and keep it fresh in the publics heads, it will be interesting to see where they settle them but it wouldn't surprise me if they end up in OZ and they just increase border control measures up north as a safe guard against the influx risk.

On this issue labour will be in a hard place, they really screwed up last time, perhaps labours last stance on the issue did help but i don't think that's a view most of the public share.

If they labour did get in based on other issues (which is harder now Tony gone), i think they would have to adopt pretty much a carbon copy of the turn boat policy, it would be crazy not too, and then perhaps put another twist in there as a safe guard of what to do if the circumstance did come up where a boat does slip past, a swap agreement like the Malaysia solution would make sense if its legal.

Going to be an interesting year on this issue IMO especially in the latter half of the year.

PS.No i won't be voting liberal, I'm blue collar working class so on other issues it makes more sense to vote Labour.

tim foilhat, take a deep breath....now let it out slowly. now remember how ouraged you were 10 seconds ago that I dared to question refugees and economic migrants, well that's how outraged I feel when I hear another (real) refugees story about the years in a (true) hellhole camp, while some cashed up moron steals their place in Australia.

"So what your trying to say is that in your opinion it's "absolutely unnacceptable to have kids in detention."......and fast tracking your migratory route spending more money is unacceptable in the same sense."

yep that's exactly what I'm saying, especially if the fast tracked migrant is displacing a family with kids living in a real hell hole, aren't these kids important too?

your second question about rape. I didn't say that at all. I said young naive idealistic staff exaggerated the situation.

third question, didn't say that at all either, said unaccompanied minors are questionable, seems to be a well known scam.

fourth question. yes absofuckinglutely, surprised you need to ask.

fifth. nope, why what's the relevance?

happyas

any social service privatised is a travesty of justice, but that's the new neoliberal way. I don'think any shareholder/ profit driven company has the scruples to do it right. I'm all for, and have suggested before, stuff like indo d suggested above where developing countries get benefits and aid for providing services. when you actually know how little real wages are in countries like indo, png etc. you should be able to provide humane services while benefiting the host company. having profit driven oz companies running the show is disastrous. corruption and ill intent is rife

"tim foilhat, take a deep breath....now let it out slowly. now remember how ouraged you were 10 seconds ago that I dared to question refugees and economic migrants, well that's how outraged I feel when I hear another (real) refugees story about the years in a (true) hellhole camp, while some cashed up moron steals their place in Australia."

Nope I wasn't anywhere near that outraged, you seem really butt hurt about economic refugees.

Interesting read.

The Nauru Police Force are sick of the lies told about them and the fabricated allegations of refugees – encouraged by Australian advocates and lawyers - and want the truth revealed.

Police Commissioner Corey Caleb said that the police do an outstanding job and revealed that police resources are increasingly being allocated to dealing with conflicts between refugees.

"We would receive around five call-outs every day for disputes between refugees, and these have nothing to do with locals," he said.

"That's more than the calls we receive daily from the entire Nauruan population."

He said the refugee community consisted of many different nationalities.

"Some fight with each other and even within the nationalities there are different groups who have been at war with each other for generations based on religious or cultural grounds.

"Tensions are rising but it's not between refugees and locals but just between refugees."

The Commissioner said refugees regularly fabricate allegations of assault and sexual assault as they know that Australian advocates and lawyers will publicise the lies as fact through friendly Australian journalists who also have a political agenda.

"They tell us they have been assaulted but their stories seldom add up; there is usually no physical evidence or witnesses or even any details," he explained.

"Not only do police have nothing to investigate except an allegation with no information but even if we had a suspect, no prosecutor can build a case when the only piece of so-called evidence is an unsubstantiated allegation."

Commissioner Caleb said Australian refugee advocates and journalists are encouraging false reporting.

"Even in Australia, these allegations would be dismissed and those making them would be charged with making a false complaint.”

He said many police have been personally distressed over false allegations of police brutality and a lack of willingness to investigate refugee allegations, saying police took complaints seriously, investigated thoroughly, and treated everyone equally under the law.

“We have Australian Federal Police advisors who have day-to-day input into investigations and they know the facts.”

Justice Minister David Adeang acknowledged that the false allegations were simply a ploy to get to Australia.

"Most refugees within our community respect our hospitality but a minority will scheme to bring unrest because they think it will help their objective.”

ENDS///

Source:http://www.nauru-news.com/#!We-wont-cop-it-anymore-Nauru-Police/cjds/56b...

The Government of Nauru has accused sections of the Australian media, refugee advocates and lawyers of double standards, noting that they are more concerned about bashing Nauru than protecting children.

Justice Minister David Adeang revealed that a recent allegation by a refugee that his six year old daughter had been sexually assaulted received no interest from the media or from refugee groups when they discovered the accused was another refugee.

“It didn’t suit their story, because they wanted to once again point the finger at a Nauruan and spread the lies that Nauru is a dangerous place,” he said.

Mr Adeang said that one media outlet ran the headline of a child being assaulted in Nauru but “dropped the story completely” when it was revealed that a local was not the alleged perpetrator.

He said other news outlets, who would “usually be running headline stories and be onto us every day” ignored the story completely, and every refugee advocate and lawyer stopped commenting once they found out there was no political mileage to be gained.

“In every single other allegation of this sort, the media and advocates build these things – which are almost always lies – up so they can trash our country to further their political fight against the Australian Government.

“This proves that they don’t care about the children, but only about how they can exploit the children for their cause. If they really cared about the children why would the nationality of the accused matter?”

Mr Adeang said police in this case did what they always did and investigated the allegation properly. While this matter is still with the Director of Public Prosecutions, he noted that almost all allegations of assault by refuges are unsubstantiated allegations with no physical evidence, witnesses or details.

“It is very unfortunate that advocates and lawyers in Australia are telling refugees here that fabricating allegations of assault will help them get to Australia, because it won’t.”

He also pointed to recent issues of “blatant bias” including a recent media report that showed pictures of a broken-down building in the Nauru hospital the day before a new $27 million hospital facility was opened.

“The journalist had the new pictures but failed to even mention the new hospital, because it clearly didn’t suit the agenda.”

Australian Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young also tweeted two-year old pictures of the old hospital the day before the opening, a move the Government said was “clearly designed to misrepresent the facts”.

http://www.nauru-news.com/#!Nauru-Govt-reveals-proof-that-some-media-and...

Quite a few similar articles here http://www.nauru-news.com

Still trawling for bottom feeders Indo?

So what's your motivation here? Going for Grand Poo-bar of your local chapter of Reclaim Australia or some other collection of extremely dimwitted numbnuts?

See, no-one spends the time you have dedicated to demonising refugees here, and Adan Goodes previously without an alternative motive.

Come on, man up Indo and come clean

floyd wrote:

Still trawling for bottom feeders Indo?

So what's your motivation here? Going for Grand Poo-bar of your local chapter of Reclaim Australia or some other collection of extremely dimwitted numbnuts?

See, no-one spends the time you have dedicated to demonising refugees here, and Adan Goodes previously without an alternative motive.

Come on, man up Indo and come clean

You know Floyd your starting to really shit me, your coming across as a real fuck wit and not bringing anything worthwhile to the discussion.

I don't have a problem with refugees and i don't have a problem with multiculturalism or different races or religions.

I have a problem with gooses like you not looking at bigger picture, you act all compassionate and take the moral high ground, while your actually part of the problem your as bad as those lawyers and so called human right groups stirring up shit, your doing nothing positive in regard to Australia's future and your compassion is misguided, if it was up to you we would be allowing refugees and god knows how many economic refugees in at the EXPENSE of 100% true refuges who have applied to be resettled years ago.

Wake up to yourself and think about how you would feel if you were in camp or elsewhere and had applied to be resettled five, ten, twenty years ago, while others get processed in front of you because they have basically forced themselves on the government.

Tell me why do they deserve priority?

How can i be against refugees when i actually think a system like the Malaysian solution would have worked which would have seen us swap 800 questionable refugees for 4000 genuine refugees.

And i have actually said in previous post think our refugee intake should be doubled.

BTW. You Obviously have no idea of my character i don't want to big name myself but to give you an idea i actually got approached by an aid organisation a few month back to be employed on the ground overseeing a program because those involved knew my passion for helping those in need in Indonesia and know the time I've spent living in very poor communities, unfortunately as much as i wanted to take the position i had to decline due to family commitments.

As for Adam Goodes thing, he was obviously a great footballer but also a acted like a complete flog, you may think its racist to call out people as wankers just because they are a certain race or skin colour, but sorry i try to treat people the same no matter what there skin colour or race, if you remember i actually happened to agree with an aboriginal on the matter, and funny that one of my best mates is mixed Aboriginal o if your implying I'm racist or anti aboriginal well sorry your wrong.

PS. If you must know I'm probably spending so much time on this issue and Swellnet in general because I'm bored, I've got to look after my two year old daughter a lot of the time these days while my wife works and I'm going crazy watching ABC2/KIDS and just like Sheep dog i like a good discussion/debate…i did just take her to beach but there is only so much time a little kid can spend in the sun.

Sheepdog wrote:

Indo- "The Nauru Police Force are sick of the lies told about them and the fabricated allegations of refugees – encouraged by Australian advocates and lawyers - and want the truth revealed."

Then phone up dutton and get him to change the laws back so reporters, doctors, advocates can visit and report without fear of jail..... Simple, really...

Um how is that going to help?…a lot of them are obviously part of the problem and the reason by the laws.

Indo : You know Floyd your starting to really shit me, your coming across as a real fuck wit and not bringing anything worthwhile to the discussion.

Indo can you please define for me "100% true refugees"? Start your reply with " I don't want to big name myself but..."

In all of this I think it's important not to question the morality or intent of any of these humans in these camps without knowing their story. And without being present with them none of us can know. All I see from here is that we are detaining people for too long in difficult conditions thus eroding slowly all the beautiful things they may have offered our communities in Australia.

I am grateful to see the brave and passionate Australians standing up for the voiceless and challenging our government to find a better way.

Roystein wrote:

Indo can you please define for me "100% true refugees"? Start your reply with " I don't want to big name myself but..."

In all of this I think it's important not to question the morality or intent of any of these humans in these camps without knowing their story. And without being present with them none of us can know. All I see from here is that we are detaining people for too long in difficult conditions thus eroding slowly all the beautiful things they may have offered our communities in Australia.

I am grateful to see the brave and passionate Australians standing up for the voiceless and challenging our government to find a better way.

I think its fair to say unless your a refugee your not going to be staying in a refugee camp..True?.

However those that arrive by boat are often not refugees but rather economical refugees, to determine this is very hard especially when you have little to go on, although people throw the figure of 90% around because its on the government website, obviously its something that can vary and as sypkan was told by a refugee who has already been settled hence has no reason to make up BS or have agendas estimated it at closer to 50% (I have also heard this through similar accounts)

To me every spot on our refugee intake should count, if even a small percentage of these people are not genuine but still accepted because it can't be proven otherwise, that is to much.

There is a very simple way to ensure every spot does count and that is to ideally have our intake taken from refugee camps.

Now I've answered your question, please answer mine.

Can you give a good reason why somebody that arrives by boat should be processed and resettled before someone that has applied to be processed and resettled five, ten, twenty years ago?

i don't think it a orderly, linear, queuing situation. Ie it' can't be that you were waiting longer so you are next up.

It's like having 10 different full waiting rooms in a hospital but only a couple of doctors, and everyone is desperate to get in but their injuries arent clear or obvious. How do you decide?

It's such a complex problem

Roystein wrote:

i don't think it a orderly, linear, queuing situation. Ie it' can't be that you were waiting longer so you are next up.

It's like having 10 different full waiting rooms in a hospital but only a couple of doctors, and everyone is desperate to get in but their injuries arent clear or obvious. How do you decide?

It's such a complex problem

There is two ways you decide and this goes for most scenarios in life.

1. You give priority to those in most need for example if it was an emergency room a guy with serious life threatening injures would have priority over someone with a broken leg.

Are refugees that arrive by boat in more need than those stuck rotting in camps?

I think its fair to say no (if you can find a reason then please share).

2. The second is first in first served rule, If the first rule doesn't apply and two guys have broken legs one has been waiting since early morning and one just came in, its quite obvious you would process the guy that arrived in the morning but hasn't been processed because of other more serious cases.

I thought this is a how our society naturally works and what we call fair?

Its quite obvious the person who has applied, 5 , 10, 20 years before gets priority over the recent refugee who may not have applied but has turned up on your doorstep expecting to bypass everyone else.

Unfortunately in many societies there is a third equation that often comes into play to gain priority or be fast tracked, and thats who can afford to pay the most or pay when no payment should be needed, this is generally called corruption.

And no I'm not implying anyone is paying to be fast tracked, but money does come into the equation because money is generally needed to travel and pay people smugglers and many in camps do not have the advantage of having money to do this, so in effect if you give priority to those who arrive by boat, you are also creating a system where priory is based on wealth .

BTW. In your scenario of ten different waiting rooms, those waiting rooms would be refuge camps, but the people who arrive by boat would be the people who just arrived and by pass the waiting room and start banging on the surgeons door demanding they be treated immediately despite the fact their condition is no different or no worse than those who have been waiting patiently..

Sheepdog wrote:

"Tell me why do they deserve priority?"

I have told you why 12 times, Indo.... FFS......... Bottomline is why should a kosovan refugee who has been waiting for 10 years have priority over someone running from OUR war? OUR war, Indo..... Shouldn't those who displaced the kosovan man up? When that sinks into your head, you wont be asking these ridiculous questions anymore.... France has displaced a lot of Syrians with it's toppling of Gadaffi... They went to the U.N and got permission to bomb.... Now because of the new murderous regime, THANKS TO FRANCES ACTIONS, France should man up and take Libyans..... Same with us re' Iraq/Syria.... Under that fucking Howard, and that cunt of a thing Abbott, we are up to our eyeballs in the creation of ISIS, we supported rebels (who are ISIS ) in the Syrian civil war.... So those fleeing the region are OUR RESPONSIBILTY...
Do you even get it?

Sheepdog if you want to look at it like that, then why not process people who have applied to to be processed long ago and have been waiting in camps from other wars we have been involved in???

Or are you telling me there is no refugees in camps as a result of all the previous wars we have been involved in?

Or is there an expiry date on our moral responsibility or some other weird logic?

Sometimes i think you jut say black because i say white.

....... its all an illusion, there is no black and white.

floyd wrote:

....... its all an illusion, there is no black and white.

What happened to your last post?…I saw it quickly last night, i thought it was a good post and a much more cvil reply than i was expecting and kind of respected that.

Anyway i guess sometimes we just have to agree to disagree and understand we all see the world differently, sometimes we can't agree with our best mates or family on these emotive issues, so off course we are not going to always agree when we are basically strangers on a public forum.

BTW. My old man also went to Vietnam, i guess it would have also changed him a lot and i guess he would have seen some pretty bad shit, as a kid i remember he was pretty jumpy about a lot of things like choppers or cars back firing he really would hit the ground and you could never sneak up on him otherwise he would have you on the ground in a second it kind of scared me as a kid going into there room at night if i couldn't sleep or had a nightmare etc.

As i got older he often told stories of how he saw his mates die and how he almost died and places they had been staying for weeks bombed the day after they left etc….probably doesn't have demons that your cousins do by the sounds of it but he still does suffers from depression and has been diagnosed with PSTD.

what i see is both sides arguing on the basis of their own ideals. but there is actual very little detail provided in respect of whats actually happening either within the country at war, or indeed within manus or nauru. there is one major item that is seriously contributing to this lack of detail and ensuing arguments, and that is the govt secrecy laws. the govt will claim that secrecy laws help to stem the flow of arrivals, but at what price does this come? i think its seriously wrong and a major step backwards for a modern society to go down this path. do we accept a govt that keeps things from us. things that do concern us. how can we judge our government at the next election if the only measure is "the number of boat arrivals"....this is not the only measure required. they need to be judged on their totality handling of the situation. i guess people are too happy to be ignorant of the facts these days. as they say, ignorance is bliss.

yeh it's complex, no it's not black and white, but it's not as difficult to understand as the complexity sellers would have us believe.

roystein (and flioyd) no one is judging the morality or intent of people at narau (well maybe that ween character). both indo and I have said, in one way or another, many times, that you cannot blame these people for seeking a better life. they have the means and motivation to do so. they also probably have a legitimate story of possible persecution. millions do in the modern context. so being practicle and saying we should focus on the most needy is not morally repugnant. however questioning indo d's morals (when you ask him not to), and resorting to snide remarks and name calling is hypocritical and childish at best, but that seems to be the MO for the left in dealing with this issue, yeh that may have served a purpose 20 years ago, but it's getting tired and counter productive.

the left hss been playing the man for a long time, meanwhile they've had their eyes off the ball for so long the ball has rolled to the ground next door....and they still haven't even noticed!! meanwhile moderate people have stopped listening to their slurs about being racist, that are so vitriolic they often sound racist themselves,. moderates have also stopped listening to the false claims and hyperbole, which is a shame really, because there is often a good point in there somewhere if one can be bothered wading through the bullshit.

while the left has overly busied itself with these obsessions the world has changed significantly, while they're fighting the same old fight, focussing on what was, the issue has grown to huge proportions that we'll never get on top of, so prioritising seems a sensible choice. while the issue has grown huge, so have inequalities. inequalities that allow the not most needy to slip in front of the truly voiceless and powerless. it seems everybody has noticed this but the left who continue to shout down anyone with a contrary worldview. this shoutung down, playing the man, has quietened opposing views for a long time while some really perverse outcomes have developed. perverse outcomes the far left, or regressive left, or whoever, are still in denial about as they fight the old fight. while the debate has been silenced by passive agressive bullying, it has gone on for so long, that it has become blatantly obvious to all but the willfully ignorant that the refugee convention and all the infrastructure we've built around it, and serving it (or at least appearung to serve it to save face) are doing very little to serve the people it's designed to help. you guys might be happy to have leverage with your political football, but I can't watch it anymore, so much waste, so much hurt.

if you need to argue with someone to vent your frustrations argue with the hard right, most people on here are not hard right and actually probably have similar goals to yourselves.

the game has changed!

Sheepdog wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

Sheepdog wrote:

"Tell me why do they deserve priority?"

I have told you why 12 times, Indo.... FFS......... Bottomline is why should a kosovan refugee who has been waiting for 10 years have priority over someone running from OUR war? OUR war, Indo..... Shouldn't those who displaced the kosovan man up? When that sinks into your head, you wont be asking these ridiculous questions anymore.... France has displaced a lot of Syrians with it's toppling of Gadaffi... They went to the U.N and got permission to bomb.... Now because of the new murderous regime, THANKS TO FRANCES ACTIONS, France should man up and take Libyans..... Same with us re' Iraq/Syria.... Under that fucking Howard, and that cunt of a thing Abbott, we are up to our eyeballs in the creation of ISIS, we supported rebels (who are ISIS ) in the Syrian civil war.... So those fleeing the region are OUR RESPONSIBILTY...
Do you even get it?

Sheepdog if you want to look at it like that, then why not process people who have applied to to be processed long ago and have been waiting in camps from other wars we have been involved in???

Or are you telling me there is no refugees in camps as a result of all the previous wars we have been involved in?

Or is there an expiry date on our moral responsibility or some other weird logic?

Sometimes i think you jut say black because i say white.

Well Indo, I actually started this thread... So truth be told, I said white first, then you said black.... If you can't get the order right on something that basic, what hope do we have ?

"Sheepdog if you want to look at it like that, then why not process people who have applied to to be processed long ago and have been waiting in camps from other wars we have been involved in"

Damn straight!!! Why haven't they been processed Indo? You tell me!! Google a list of conflicts we have been involved in over the last 15 years, and you tell me why we haven't resettled these people? Perhaps if we dont resettle these people , they can be used as an argument by folks like you yeah?

ha ha..your a classic Sheepdog, black white, white black fine…whatever you want.

They haven't been resettled because there is much much more refugees that apply to be resettled than places available every year.

I guess you could say well increase the places which is a simple thing to say and easy to throw numbers around, but i guess its determined by many things like short term cost, long term cost, housing, politics etc.

BTW. In reply to your above link, for the 100th time IDEALLY i don't support Australia getting involved in wars that don't really involve us especially when they are on the other side of the planet.

I'm not going to weigh into this so much as to update news, I've read Turkey shelling Syrian govt positions, Qatari/Saudi jets to Turkey, Russia flying in heavy equipment to their air base with large numbers of Antonovs, Turkish aircraft flying low and fast on their side border, Russian on other side, Russia southern command mobilising, UK forces told to cancel leave, US mil emergency frequencies broadcasting, Saudis running exercise of a staggering size (350K troops, 20K tanks, 2400 aircraft!), and Turkey calling for Assad to go, and informing news outlets to be at full staff for Sunday (about to start in US) amongst other things. I'm trying to think of a time when I've seen the weekend financial/geopolitical news light up like this? Does not bode well.

indo-dreaming wrote:

floyd wrote:

....... its all an illusion, there is no black and white.

What happened to your last post?…I saw it quickly last night, i thought it was a good post and a much more cvil reply than i was expecting and kind of respected that.

Anyway i guess sometimes we just have to agree to disagree and understand we all see the world differently, sometimes we can't agree with our best mates or family on these emotive issues, so off course we are not going to always agree when we are basically strangers on a public forum.

BTW. My old man also went to Vietnam, i guess it would have also changed him a lot and i guess he would have seen some pretty bad shit, as a kid i remember he was pretty jumpy about a lot of things like choppers or cars back firing he really would hit the ground and you could never sneak up on him otherwise he would have you on the ground in a second it kind of scared me as a kid going into there room at night if i couldn't sleep or had a nightmare etc.

As i got older he often told stories of how he saw his mates die and how he almost died and places they had been staying for weeks bombed the day after they left etc….probably doesn't have demons that your cousins do by the sounds of it but he still does suffers from depression and has been diagnosed with PSTD.

You don't need to agree or disagree with me on anything Indo. I said what I said, gave you time to read it and then deliberately removed it, its what I have learnt over a 20 year period working with people in need. I have nothing else to say on this topic.

Sheepdog wrote:

I'm a classic, Indo??? You say I disagree with you first... Make a point of it....But I correct you, and I'm a classic?... Ok..... yeah black white, white black fine…whatever you want... pmsl....

"I guess you could say well increase the places which is a simple thing to say and easy to throw numbers around, but i guess its determined by many things like short term cost, long term cost, housing, politics etc"

Isn't that hilarious..... collateral damage and displaced humans have to be "determined" AFTER going to war..... Perhaps these "things" could be determined BEFORE going to war, yeah..... Not that hard to run some stats from previous conflicts, yeah?
It's all "macho" till the shit has to be cleaned up......

"for the 100th time IDEALLY i don't support Australia getting involved in wars that don't really involve us especially when they are on the other side of the planet"

Ideally??? Caveat...........Well here's a fact... We are at war buddy..... And I didn't exactly see you leading with your chin when the stakes were high.... Everyone just ducked for fucking cover or blindly waved flags when Blabbot got us involved..... Evil only exists when good people do nothing.... I copped it in the neck here back then... Where were you? I dont rememebr you going into bat like Yorko or floyd? Where were you?????? If this syrian thing does escalate with the Usa inc' middle east wing- of the Saudis and Turkey invading with a ground offensive, with Russia and Iran on the other side, and Aussies start coming home in body bags en masse, those who were silent during the Abbott proposal to join the syrian war should hang their pin heads in shame, even lower than those who wanted to join.... But I bet they'll say "ohh I was against it from the start".... Fuckn slimy cowards...

I say ideally because id really prefer we didn't get involved in wars, but i understand its not that simple and wars and our military involvement and the politics ect are extremely complex.

I will leave that topic to the experts like you Sheepdog who I'm assuming has spent so much time in the region and is a military and political expert on Middle East matters.

Im happy to tackle the much easier and yes more black and white topic of border control and whats fair and what not but even on that much simpler issue i don't have all the answers just ideas, theories and opinions.

indo-dreaming wrote:

Interesting read.

The Nauru Police Force are sick of the lies told about them and the fabricated allegations of refugees – encouraged by Australian advocates and lawyers - and want the truth revealed.

Police Commissioner Corey Caleb said that the police do an outstanding job and revealed that police resources are increasingly being allocated to dealing with conflicts between refugees.

"We would receive around five call-outs every day for disputes between refugees, and these have nothing to do with locals," he said.

"That's more than the calls we receive daily from the entire Nauruan population."

He said the refugee community consisted of many different nationalities.

"Some fight with each other and even within the nationalities there are different groups who have been at war with each other for generations based on religious or cultural grounds.

"Tensions are rising but it's not between refugees and locals but just between refugees."

The Commissioner said refugees regularly fabricate allegations of assault and sexual assault as they know that Australian advocates and lawyers will publicise the lies as fact through friendly Australian journalists who also have a political agenda.

"They tell us they have been assaulted but their stories seldom add up; there is usually no physical evidence or witnesses or even any details," he explained.

"Not only do police have nothing to investigate except an allegation with no information but even if we had a suspect, no prosecutor can build a case when the only piece of so-called evidence is an unsubstantiated allegation."

Commissioner Caleb said Australian refugee advocates and journalists are encouraging false reporting.

"Even in Australia, these allegations would be dismissed and those making them would be charged with making a false complaint.”

He said many police have been personally distressed over false allegations of police brutality and a lack of willingness to investigate refugee allegations, saying police took complaints seriously, investigated thoroughly, and treated everyone equally under the law.

“We have Australian Federal Police advisors who have day-to-day input into investigations and they know the facts.”

Justice Minister David Adeang acknowledged that the false allegations were simply a ploy to get to Australia.

"Most refugees within our community respect our hospitality but a minority will scheme to bring unrest because they think it will help their objective.”

ENDS///

Source:http://www.nauru-news.com/#!We-wont-cop-it-anymore-Nauru-Police/cjds/56b...

I would not trust anything in the nauru media
Why do you think there is a ban on journalists getting to Nauru

indo-dreaming wrote:

The Government of Nauru has accused sections of the Australian media, refugee advocates and lawyers of double standards, noting that they are more concerned about bashing Nauru than protecting children.

Justice Minister David Adeang revealed that a recent allegation by a refugee that his six year old daughter had been sexually assaulted received no interest from the media or from refugee groups when they discovered the accused was another refugee.

“It didn’t suit their story, because they wanted to once again point the finger at a Nauruan and spread the lies that Nauru is a dangerous place,” he said.

Mr Adeang said that one media outlet ran the headline of a child being assaulted in Nauru but “dropped the story completely” when it was revealed that a local was not the alleged perpetrator.

He said other news outlets, who would “usually be running headline stories and be onto us every day” ignored the story completely, and every refugee advocate and lawyer stopped commenting once they found out there was no political mileage to be gained.

“In every single other allegation of this sort, the media and advocates build these things – which are almost always lies – up so they can trash our country to further their political fight against the Australian Government.

“This proves that they don’t care about the children, but only about how they can exploit the children for their cause. If they really cared about the children why would the nationality of the accused matter?”

Mr Adeang said police in this case did what they always did and investigated the allegation properly. While this matter is still with the Director of Public Prosecutions, he noted that almost all allegations of assault by refuges are unsubstantiated allegations with no physical evidence, witnesses or details.

“It is very unfortunate that advocates and lawyers in Australia are telling refugees here that fabricating allegations of assault will help them get to Australia, because it won’t.”

He also pointed to recent issues of “blatant bias” including a recent media report that showed pictures of a broken-down building in the Nauru hospital the day before a new $27 million hospital facility was opened.

“The journalist had the new pictures but failed to even mention the new hospital, because it clearly didn’t suit the agenda.”

Australian Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young also tweeted two-year old pictures of the old hospital the day before the opening, a move the Government said was “clearly designed to misrepresent the facts”.

http://www.nauru-news.com/#!Nauru-Govt-reveals-proof-that-some-media-and...

The new hospital has not opened yet, those photos are legit.

anyone want to highlight their views on the compatibility of any islamic cultures with a modern western society such as australia? i alluded to it earlier as one of the issues the government considers upon when determining the level and type of multiculturalism in australia. By that same token the state of our immigration program, current and future.

Islam means surrender and is the religion started by Muhammad in 622 A.D.The aim of this religion is to take
over the western world.Muslim religious leaders believe this can be done in the next 10-50 years. Muslim men have been marrying aboriginal girls to have children who can then make land claims as Muslim Aboriginals.All followers of this religion have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of this faith.We must not let our country be taken over by a 7th century Arabian ideology that is way more dangerous than Nazism or Communism.