Illegal boat people

Maybe a stupid question.but why the hell are these boats allowed to leave Indo in the first place? If this was to happen in reverse and the boasts left Australia they would be defected, not allowed to go anywhere!. Seems to me the real responsibility lies with the Indonesians.
Aussies seem to accept all the blame in this debate.."its our fault, why don't we house them, pay for them, give them jobs"..but good old Indo does stuff all.
Everyone seems to be blinded by 'Bali bliss'.
Lets face it ..if the boats never left Indonesia we would not have a problem.
Happens everytime..i.e live export industry..Indonesia torture the cattle yet the Aussie's get the blame for sending them there WTF??
Indo's drug policy..fine if your a local but watch out if your a foreigner...'bout time we turned the heat up on them!! but what would I know..I'm just a yokel.

@Barley,

There's a lot of boats plying the waters of Indo, fishermen and inter-island ferries. That makes it almost impossible to oversee all the sea traffic. I'm not too sure about aerial surveillance but I don't think the Indonesian military is that advanced. Certainly I've never seen any planes flying overhead when I've been down that end of the archipelago.

For the most part, boats are stopped. I lived in Malang last year and in a central Javan south coast town for six months a few years ago and buses with people heading for boats were stopped regularly (once or twice a month). Those transporting them were arrested. These stories don't often make the English language press.

If you jumped in a boat right now and started sailing away from Australia, nobody will stop you, especially if you leave in darkness. At a guess I would say indo has better border security than oz, there is always someone watching.

Very good point Shaun - Neighborhood watch (and the deplorable lynchings) are a far greater deterrent to criminal activity in Indonesia than the police.

A few days ago on this thread I questioned whether Tony Abbott and the Greens Christine Milne should take some responsibility for the deaths at sea and continued flow of asylum seekers by not supporting the Malaysia Solution, which was a similar policy to the PNG option by guaranteeing boat arrivals would never be settled in Australia.
Now in todays editorial of right wing Murdoch newspaper The Australian comes this quote;

"The Australian has welcomed Mr Rudd's bold approach through the PNG Solution because it has the potential to provide a strong deterrent. We have criticised both sides of politics for injecting partisan politics into this issue(the Coalition should have supported the Malaysia option)."

When the right wing intellectual journalists at The Australian have taken this approach you have to question Abbott's motives in blocking the Malaysia Solution. From the stand point of the refugees surely being placed in a reletively advanced and developed Muslim country like Malaysia would have been preferable to jungle camps in PNG?
But as Abbott well knows, "Boats Mean Votes" so he had little incentive to end the misery. He must be popping champagne corks with every sinking boat. Heartless prick!

Today William Bourke, President of the Sustainable Population Party and NSW Senate candidate and Jane O'Sullivan, Agricultural Scientist and QLD Senate candidate posted an article on Independent Australia on the subject of overpopulation being a cause of increased refugee migration. It's worth a read.

http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/overpopulation-drives-...

yorkesman, yeah good article, thats why I had the "SNIP". I do believe the world is over populated, but nothing is getting done about it.
Except China with their one child policy.

I don't know if you remember and old TV series in the late 70's or early 80's (Logan's Run?) Everyone lived under a big bubble and were not allowed out, they only got to live to 30 something? The food they ate was in pill form?
That used to scare the fuck out of me, when I was a young kid. But I still watched it?......

In the article above YS, 80,000 versus 50,000 kiwis mmmmm..

Fucking kiwis, kick them out, would rather have a bunch of mossies here in OZ, what about some Al Qaeda or Jihad. They would go alright, what do ya reckon.

I've never had a problem with Kiwi's in Australia wellymon . Knew heaps of them when I was hanging on the Goldy. They were the coolest people I met up there I reckon, no bullshit. They worked their asses off and payed their taxes, no dole for them if they lost there job here. One young fellow from Wellington had to go home cause he couldn't cut the mustard. So we are probably getting your best workers and that can't be a bad thing for Australia hey?

It's a hard thing to convince those in the third world not to breed though.
When the UN tried education Africa in the 1970's, many thought they were trying to breed them out of existance and had twice as many kids. Also with such a high mortality rate many have large families in the hope that a few kids will make it to an old enough age to look after the parents in their old age.
Only by improving the standard of living in their own countries can we expect them to have less kids and to not want to migrate to first world countries like ours. And that can only be done through foreign aid projects funded by wealthy nations such as ours.

I've mentioned previously that my mum is president of an N.G.O(non government organisation) called World Families. It's run completely by volunteers and has schools, orphanages, and aid projects in nine countries including Indonesia, Ethiopia, Thailand and Nepal. Last year they raised over $1 million dollars and feed and house more than 1200 kids without families. She's a legend! Anyone that's interested can check out their website.

http://www.worldfamilies.org.au/

Yorkessurfer, Thats an awesome mum you have, You are lucky, what a credit to her.

No disrespect to you about the Kiwi shit , I was only joking from reading the article, in your last post.

If you read that little paragraph about it, I couldn't figure out the 80,000 total,...... or per year?

Anyways, time will tell YS about the boat people and it is interesting reading everyones comments about it.

Cheers

Ha, just like mainlanders here poking shit at Tasmanians the joke is on the other foot. Tasmania and NZ both great places with great great people.

NZ is light years ahead of Australia in some ways ..... they told the yanks to fuck off with their nuclear navy; their foreign policy is not predicated on licking US arse whenever a good ole war is in the offing; they had a female prime minister and treated her with respect and they have a price on carbon. That's 4 out of 4 in my book and I haven't even talked about how they care for their beautiful beyond words countryside and coasts.

Well said floyd. They also legalised same sex marriage so 5/5 I reckon. Lookin forward to a ski trip over there in a few weeks and a surf trip next year. Can't wait!

YS, thanks for posting that link mate. Hats off to your mum, it looks like a great organisation.

Floyd the difference is that other countrys actually want to invade Australia :-)

Hey Benski Yeah I forgot what they did for same sex marriage definitely 5 out of 5.

While on your ski trip don't forget to chow down a few Fergburgers when in Queenstown.

cheers floyd but I'll be skiing Mt Hutt and Broken River near Christchurch so I'll miss out on ferburger. Spewin too cos their website is great! Seems like quite a place.

Only burger place I have been to where the back of the queue to be served starts 2 doors down the road. Epic.

benski, have you been to BR before?

You will love it if you haven't been there.

Old school.

When your up the top, hike right "while your looking down on the illegal boat people" and drop into the chutes.

Thanks wellymon. Haven't been there but I like a hike into side country if it's there and BR looks like it might have that kind of potential. I'll be sure to watch out for those "economic refugees".

Funniest commentary on this sorry saga yet.

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/cry-havoc-and-let-slip-the-doggerel-of-...

Yeah, I love Annabel's work. Another great Adelaidian!

A silent invasion "yep" thats what you a supporting if you let these people in to Australia. How can they be genuine refugees when they chuck there passports in the ocean ? How the fuck can the refugee say he is starving when he has $20000.00 for a ticket on a leaky boat ? Some of the boat people are terrorist and support Alkidah . When a refugee gets in to Australia he is payed each fortnight approx $800.00 and that money is put in to his new bank account every 2 weeks for the whole time he is in a refugee camp . When 1 year has passed he now has saved [52 weeks x $400.000] $20800.00 and he will send the 20 G back to his brother so he can become a boat person and then the cycle begins . "Yeah" you say he is a poor refugee that has his life under threat in his own country and he is a survive'r and he is doing his best for his children . WRONG he is a single guy with the money and the gall to exploit Australia and then get his brothers doing the same thing . They are here to get paid from the government and housed ,fed and medi care for the rest of the lives . When they get here they dont want to work because they think working 40 + hours a week for $650.00 a week is too hard , Yes thats right they think Australia is too fuckin much hard work and they are better off on center link payments . Australia is expensive and why would they work 40 hours a week at a shit job when they can get $400.00 a week doing what they are used to doing witch is nothing . They dont have the same values as us so they dont want a job . They think they have died and gone to heaven when they get on the dole and a public housing house .Wake up to your self and stop trying to make out you are political'y correct and you are a good Australian , your grandchildren will be so ashamed of you if you dont STOP THE BOATS .

"Some of the boat people are terrorist and support Alkidah"

Beautiful.

Well, you can't argue with the facts Stu.

Though I am confused.. I thought was I was supposed to be worried about single, male, Alkidah terrorists coming here to steal my job? Now it seems that they are refusing to take them. Slippery gypsies.

Let me get this straight Lukesdripping, wealthy terrorist 1 with $20,000 gets on boat and collects MY!! dole payments, then upon being released sends $20,000 back to wealthy terrorist 2 (brother) to jump on leaky boat. If terrorist are so wealthy, why do they have to send money back to other wealthy terrorists.

Be careful how you respond to this, as asio is most likely monitoring this forum, and will be taking a keen interest as to how lukesdripping has such an intimate knowledge of the comings and goings of wealthy terrorists.

If you listen to a politician entering parliament they rightly hold grand ideals about how they may help their country. I don't doubt their sincerity when newly elected but along the way they get somewhat punch drunk with the constant compromise and pressure from all the paid lobbyist.

So slowly all those good intentions are chipped away and most become hardened and cynical.

But and its a very big but politicians hold a great responsibility to shape and guide their electorate is some fundamental and universal humane ways. So in the cut and thrust of daily political life some basic tenants of human decency should remain sacred and not open to political comprise. An example of this in a policy sense might be Aboriginal health and education initiatives. These two issues should be beyond politics and should always enjoy bipartisan support.

Further, these responsibilities extend to the language politicians use. Politicians should use language that brings the community together rather than the language of exclusion that splinters or marginalises the electorate or groups in the electorate.

For the reasons outlined above I hold John Howard responsible for politicising immigration and refugees. For cynical political purposes he declared in that infamous 2001 election speech "we will decide the people that come to this country and the circumstances in which they come" labelling this issue a "border protection issue". Prior to that speech immigration and refugees has shared bipartisan support in Australia for decades.

In uttering those words he failed in his role as a prime minister and set off the train wreck we have on this issue today where you have both sides of politics racing to the bottom and you have media commentators and shock jocks joining in on the chorus. Little wonder misinformed individuals like lukesripping feels free to share his somewhat farcical views on this forum.

Australia is a poorer place for the low nature of this debate. But like John Howard before them Abbott and Rudd are using the plight of refugees for cynical political purposes.

Apologises for bring this topic up again but I feel sort of sick in the guts tonight after what Abbott and Morrison announced today.

Abbott deliberately lied time and time again at today's "policy" launch referring to refugees as people who choose to come here illegally. There is nothing illegal about a person fleeing persecution and seeking refuge in another country. He knows it, Morrison knows it but they are trading on the plight of desperate people solely for political purposes.

They also announced planned legislation that will take effect retrospectively on the existing 30,000 refugees in this country so that they will never be settled here permanently. These people and anyone else that arrive in the future will live under a TPV and be required to work for the dole. Further, review rights are to be removed in decisions about refugee status. Well, that will be turned on its head in the courts hopefully.

He also repeated a paraphrased version of Howard's infamous dog whistle about "we will decide the people who come here and the circumstances by which they arrive".

Gee, Labor have been overtaken in the two party free-fall to the sewer. It's a bad day in hell when your PM and PM elect trade people's on hopes and aspirations in this way.

How far to the right does Australia have to stagger before people say enough?

If these people were fleeing persecution why would they choose to pass through 2,3,4,5 different countries and board a dodgy boat to arrive in Australia? Because Australia is the easiest place to enter...Sure we will take you ..no dramas!! No paperwork, no id but sure come on in.
If they get in ..whats wrong with making them work..I know a lot of people who live off welfare-taxpayer money surf everyday, take more holidays than I do and I work for a living!!
Instead of housing these people, paying food, tv internet etc why don't we just fly them back?
P.S I have no issue with legitimate refugees..

Floyd, I don't think anyone knows the 'Refugee Answer' both parties jostle about, trying to be more hard nose than the other. Where does it stop or at least slow down? We can't take everyone, can we? I worry about the poor bastards stuck in some shit hole camp, on some border in Africa, with their kids dying around them. They should be the ones that get to our country, they don't have the funds to get here, they have no hope of getting anywhere near Australia. They are the people we should be concentrating on. Meanwhile people from across the ditch can come and go as they please?

@ salt, You are right, it's a complex issue and no-one really knows the answer. But if our country's starting point was compassion we would have a different policy mix right now. I also agree with your comment about the need to take more people from camps. That in a nut shell is the Greens position, that is, off-shore processing centres in line with UN principles.

@nick, Nothing I can say is ever likely to change your view of the world but I will just say two things.

Recently, I had a former Afghan refugee do some work on my house. He was in the detention system for 10 years! He works 7 days per week, has a wife and a young daughter. He pays $1,500 per month for a one bedroom flat. He sends money home to his family and his wife's family all of whom have fled Afghanistan to Pakistan because its safer (just). He laments the fact that he will never see his family again because the rules here now pretty much prohibit a family reunion and it's too dangerous for him to now even to go to Pakistan From your previous posts he sounds a little like you nick, works his arse off for his family.

Second, last week I spent about 3 hours talking to a current serving British Army officer. This person has served two full tours in Afghanistan in Hellmand Province. His view is once the Western forces leave the Taliban will take over pretty much all of the country and thousands will be killed. Sounds a bit like what happened in Europe during the 2WW and that is why people a risking everything and getting on leaky boats .... they have no other choice.

'How far to the right does Australia have to stagger before people say enough?'

Gidday floyd, history demonstrates much further. A screeching imbecile was able to convince a whole nation to torture their next door neighbors and put them into blast furnaces.

Under the cover of zen, supposedly infused with and inspired by the Spirits of ninjas, a whole country reduced itself to robotic, frenzied, babbling idiots who would committ suicide to take over the planet.

Only the reality of their own annihilation stopped them although even that wasn't enough to dissuade some.

Enlightened by the wisdom of fortune cookies and Confucious a whole country famous for inventing the best way to kill people, is bending over backwards ala Ghenghis, to obliterate another country because the citizens want to live in peace.

Compassion... where's the status, profit and cash flow in that?

We have more important fish to fry. The budget. Productivity, even though we are the fattest system and nation that ever lived, we haven't enough profit yet. Fiscal dilemmas. We need more ant like productivity. People aren't working long or hard enough. Only when we discover a way to put foetus's to work, so that the bludgers become efficient and productive will we be able to rest. Not even then, there is always room for more productivity and efficiency. There must be a way to connect the beating hearts of foetus's to some sort of device to increase output and profitability! There must be a way to increase retirement age to 99. Advance Australia fair. Fear not, Tone, Ruddy and even the likes of Petey Garrett will find a way.

Then we will stride forth and show the cosmos how to exsist. And if there is life out there, it had better listen. We could probably combine that event with a cosmic visit from the royals, and perhaps even a royal wedding or birth? In the opening ceremony, the wives of the world leaders might like to put on a fashion showing as well? Tickets could be pre sold via a cosmic broadcast?

The greens present this issue like we should have an open door to anyone with a difficult life, and we have abundant wealth to support these people in a middle class Australian lifestyle kind of way, despite the fact these lifestyles make us the biggest consuming / polluting country in the world, already living incredibly unsustainably, which seems to be totally contradictory for a party labelled “the greens”.

Lifestyles are important in this debate, and nice middle class Australian greens people complain about poor conditions in camps etc. when really it is luxury compared to African camps, and compared to how many normal Indo and PNG people actually live (the little people). As Indo D said, if you are being fed and protected from real persecution you should be happy enough not to burn down your accommodation, even if it is a bit shit. But these camps aren’t good enough, because the camps are being filled with wealthy, important, probably legitimate refugee type people (big people) who have enough money to buy a product, Aussie life and all its benefits. As someone else said, these people cross many (safe) countries to come to Australia because here is safe and wealthy, fair enough nothing wrong with that.

The problem lies in, despite people like the greens saying there is no orderly queue for people to come to Australia, there is some order, by way of the number of refugees we take, about 20 000, and unfortunately every boat person takes one of these positions from another person stuck in an African camp where there are 100 000s of refugees. Not really fair I think, especially when one considers there is little food and water in these camps, the camps are a little rougher than the supposed ‘inhuman’ conditions the Australian government provides, and there is little debate about these people having somewhere else they could possibly go.

I also recently met a refugee, from Liberia, recently resettled in Australia, working as a disability carer while he studies commerce. He spent 16 years in refugee camp, the first 3 years in tents, and then the UN or somebody would give them sheets of tin so they could make themselves a hut. There was not always food and water, he waited in the supposed ‘non existent queue’ and made it here, eventually, and is now probably contributing just as much as Floyd's refugee mate. But should my mate have to wait longer in some shit hole African camp because Floyd’s mate has enough money and connections to jump the queue, and get looked after in (relatively) extravagant accommodation while he gets processed. Fair? I dont think so, and should my mate miss out on family reunion benefits because others are better at playing the system?

I’m not disputing Floyd’s mates’ legitimacy, there are plenty of legitimate cases, but we have to try and have some order, and the greens seem to have very unrealistic outlook on this topic. It appears they would accept anyone who makes it here. I think we have some responsibility to Iraq and Afghanistan because we helped invade these countries, but surely there is a safe place where there is still some ‘coalition of the willing’ where these people could present their case, if not then fair enough, they need to escape, but do they need to travel so far? As to Sri Lankan and Iran refugees, well they have just had a bit of a laugh at us with Labor’s formerly good natured policies.

Now Labor wants to put up refugees in PNG, the greens will call it inhuman; the locals will wonder why these outsiders are being so well looked after while they are still suffering. How can you seriously provide first world Australian camp standards next to people living in poverty? Nice one Kev, and how can you resettle people in PNG when their people are living in poverty, and you are going to have refugees live next to them with Australian benefits lifestyles presumedly?

As many have said yes it is a complex issue, but for anyone who has spent enough time in Indo to find out what stuff actually costs (ie. people’s labour / lives), it is hard to understand why the government cannot provide some services or solution in Indo (or PNG), that serves a purpose (resettles refugees) and benefits the host countries who want development and employment, and it seemed Kevvy was on the right track with SBY, then he burnt that bridge with another poorly thought out ‘policy on the run’ when he came out with PNG.

I used to like Kevvy, but he needs to learn you cant please everyone, and if your the smartest work-aholicest in the room, your not necessarily the wisest in the room.

@dandandan, I think while having a billion dollar people processing industry may be good for the economy, it may not be good for a countries soul, thats if Australia needs to worry about that.

sypkan

Of course mate, it certainly isn't good for our soul. I was just pointing it out as something that is missing in a debate that is missing much. Your contribution was a good read, not one I agree with but I'm making a good effort to gauge how all walks are feeling about the issue.

Nothing in politics has made me feel so bitter, angry, disappointed or disconnected from my country than this issue. I was driving back from the coast last night listening to Abbott's speaking about the issue. I was just filled with a rage, that this person doesn't represent me or my views, that no political party that would likely be in power would ever be able to act on my behalf. I turned the radio off and decided to stop following the issue - the race to the bottom has tired me out and I can't invest myself in it anymore. I'm done.

OMG this one is the most crazy idea ever, has Tony ever been to Indo and seen how many leaky fishing boats there are? Now every Indo with a leaky fishing boat is going to say there in the market to sell there boats to people smugglers so Tony can buy them at id expect a crazy inflated price.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-23/coalition-to-announce-scheme-to-bu...

what an absolute fucking dick abbott is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Yep, from the self appointed best money/economy managers another hair brain idea. Also a lost of boats villagers would rely on for food and transport. It may also encourage the construction of more sea worthy vessels that could have a range to Qld or NZ. Action Man does it again.

Wil Anderson: "Shame on those who say Tony Abbott doesn't have a climate policy. When the oceans rise we will have all those boats!"

Gibbot5000:

*Sells crappy boat to stupid white guy at massively inflated price*

*buys two boats*

floyd, if you put your hate for Tony aside. Have you ever thought that the coalition have done anything worthwhile.......ever? Or are you of the belief that everything thing they have ever done was crap.

hey salt,

The Liberal Party is meant to be that, liberal and not a conservative party. If any reasonable person reflects back on political life here, and even in the UK & US its fairly easy to see the shift to the right of both sides of politics. This is why you have for example the former Liberal PM Malcolm Fraser fiercely criticising the refugee policies of both the ALP and LNP while openly supporting the policy of the Greens. Do you think a person like Malcolm Fraser would even get pre-selected for a Liberal Party seat these days?

The rot for the LNP started under Howard, do you remember the tags small l or big L liberal or even wets or drys? Under Howard candidates pre-selected for parliament were all drys (economic) and hence the move to the right began. This trend has continued under Abbott but oddly the man himself is seen as less of a believer in market forces than many in his own party. So the current LNP front bench comprises of old Howard hacks which Australia rejected 6 years ago and newbys all of the right of centre, some to very far right of centre.

The same applies to the ALP and this topic has been discussed widely in the media recently given what Rudd announced just after getting the job for a 2nd time. You don't see many Doug Cameron types on Labor's side of the house, just ex lawyer types.

So I don't really rate both parties, but we will all see how moderate or otherwise the conservatives will be if the get the gig.

I just hope ideology doesn't replace common sense (e.g. Howard's work choices) and that is why we need a senate controlled by the ALP & Greens if Abbott is PM.

Your a passionate man Floyd. I don't always agree with you but you always come well armed I'll give you that.
We should remember that the majority of us aren't actually voting for Abbott or Rudd, we are voting for our local members and a few senate spots. How many Australians don't even know who their local MP is, let alone who is running up against them. They will just vote for Labour or Liberal or Greens because.... well just because... ah because Mum or Dad did, even if that person is total waste of space.

Just getting back on topic, Morris and I are doing a trip to Bali and we are looking for some financial backers as we are looking into getting some boats built over there to sell to our government, have not decided yet on paper mache or 1 layer of 4oz glass.
Another idea we are floating is starting our own people smuggling ring from the east coast of Australia to New Zealand for people seeking refuge in N.Z. from the Abbot crisis, first boat will be scheduled Sept. 8th.

Nice work shaun, have thought about fleeing to NZ myself.

Careful there Shauno and Floyd, John Key is a National you know and a good mate of Tony Abbot.

I wont be going to NZ myself, the boats will be crewed by kiwis and sailing from Eden, we are just getting the paper work finalized to submit it to centrelink for a N.I.E.S. scheme.

I think this is the best article I have read on this issue as highlights areas that are always ignored by the media and both left and right .

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/02/26/comment-critiquing-open-bo...

Good article Indo but unfortunately for most of the people that share this viewpoint are more often than not howled down by a very vocal minority.

I'll go on the record here that I concur with what this article has to say. That the funds and resources are poorly targeted and bypass those that are truly the most in need.

I saw this today, very interesting, its something I've never seen or heard reported in the media, that is Indonesia actually has detention centres, this is only about one in Medan i guess it deals with people coming in via Malaysia area, wonder how many dentition centres they actually have in Indonesia, one thing certain is that they would be a lot more basic in conditions to Australian run ones .

http://www.antaranews.com/en/news/96433/11-rohingyas-held-in-medan-immig...