Illegal boat people

Actually nick if you read my comment a few pages ago you will see that I said "I think the government made the right move reinstating offshore processing". Both parties now have essentially the same policy.

Do you really think much will change when Abbott gets in power?

If he was serious he would declare that he would tear up the U.N refugee agreement that's been in place since the end of World War II.

He would declare that he would plant mines in the waters off the north west of Australia.

And we would be about as popular as Iran and North Korea in the eyes of the international community! Setting us up in a few decades for some emerging world superpower to justify our takeover due to our greedy, irresponsible attitude towards our fellow man(of course they would just want our resources).

But he'd have your vote right nick!

We humans are a flawed lot.

We are mostly good but in our daily struggle for happiness we trample over the needs or wants of others. While this may result in gaining some temporary advantage the joy of that advantage is short lived. We are then forced to struggle again and again for more advantage or joy. For most of us this struggle for happiness ends at death.

Many spiritual or religious teachings show us a different way. That way is to consider the needs of others.

There are thousands and thousands of stories of men and women gaining great happiness simply by considering the needs of others in their daily lives.

Gerry Lopez said the best surfer in the water was the happiest surfer. Is the surfer snaking and dropping in truly happy? Shaun Tomson challenges us surfers with the simple question “what have you given back?”

We are a rich country beyond measure compared to many in the world yet we are angry and fighting each other to protect the great wealth we have from others. And in doing so we are becoming unhappy and scared about the future.

If we were all a little more compassionate towards others and ourselves it would be a far happier world.

Peace.

Thanks for that post Rattle, very insightful and welcome in this thread discussion!

>the grocer> another contender appears

has anyone considered that nickknackers and grocer are the same person? Alan Jones!!!

get off here Alan...

" pretty much like you bunch of useless turds"... what a chump!

"their families', "their families"!!! Go back to school mr stresshead

um . . . why don't we just ban nick 3 from this site for his political views. Many people seeking safety on our shores are being tortured and slain for there beliefs. Seems like going by nic's views the greater democracy of swell net should shoot him off to another blog site. take grocer with u too nic x

2.1 m in compo paid to refugees . 5.4m paid out between June 2008 and 2010. What the fuck?

interesting response nick3. was just sayin is all bro, you started the conversation, opened it for public debate and now your gettin all cranky. hope you get some waves over the weekend x

To Swellnet ...

I too support blocking nick3 from spreading his vile hatred here. What is constructive or positive about this forum topic?

You can laugh at his constant spelling and grammer mistakes and his puerile arguments but his most recent comments here are outright offensive.

I am tired of his bigotry and mindless rants.

To nick3 ...

Suggest you reflect on rattle's comments here from earlier today.

Do you even surf Nickfuck?? You sound like the biggest jerkoff of all time!! In fact I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't really Tony Abbott masquerading around getting your speedos all in a knot. Like I said before, STOP fuckin' worrying mate. You're not the boss of this place... those with a smidge of compassion will let "them" in, and if it doesn't work out then we can sort it out from there. Go for a surf bozo, calm down, stop trying to manage the country, it's too big for you alone to worry about, and start to give people the benefit of the doubt (unless proven guilty) AND a fair fuckin' go. I mean really... you're becoming very boring now. Go join the Young Libs or the KKK or Hitler Youth or something... ya chump.

Now, Floyd, it's grammar, not grammer. Or granma.

And, while I agree with you that Nick's ideas are pretty ordinary, I can't see how you or anyone else has a chance of changing them without engaging in an ideas exchange. Talking. Shedding light on the darkness, so to speak.

Censorship and prohibition have never worked.

How about a bit more light and a bit less heat?

poor, poor misinformed nick (shake head slowly from side to side)... poor misguided boy...
you just need love, I realise that now. We all love ya nick. It's ok, no one will bully you here like they used to at school. We understand you.

Thing I don't get about this nick3 chap is why he feels the need to comment on here at all..

I mean, if he's so right about all this, and he knows that the majority of Orrstrayans feel the same way as him, then what's the point in trying to convert a bunch of lefties?

Surely it will all work out according your truth. Surely there's no point in trying to convert those of us who clearly won't be lifted into the sky on the day of judgement?

Shopping list for nick3

tinned baked beans
candles
nike sneakers

Be calm

Be still

Funny you compare your mindset to religion.

stupid enought to be converted

Damn.

Outwitted by pure logic again.

Case closed.

(Quote nick3) "Isn't it lucky that most Australian feel the same as i do"

HA!!! I just about pissed myself reading this. Nick, do you really, think that most Australians have the same views as you? I seriously doubt this going off the other comments in this thread. But you may be right, you seem like a really smart guy with well thought-out views....... cough cough splutter.......

If you don't like "illegal immigrants" Nick, may I suggest that you move somewhere like Iraq or Afganistan. I'm pretty sure they don't have any problems with "illegals" entering these countries, so you'll be able to sleep peacefully at night knowing this cobber!

Safe travels!

So, Nick, an accident of birth got you into this great wide brown land. An accident of birth got most asylum seekers into the wrong place at the wrong time. Luck of the draw.

But what would it take to convince you that we have more than enough of it (luck, money, mineral wealth, sunshine, clean water, space, peaceful democracy) to go around?

If it's the spend that pissing you off, and I agree that it's a lot, we could fix that straight away. We could stop being so paranoid, and put the dollars spent in detention and deterrence to use in setting up a simpler, faster system of assessing asylum applications in-country, where the problems are the most intense, and where the camps are concentrated. Cut out the middle-men - the smugglers.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/08/17/detention-centre-cost-of-asylum-seek...

Or, if you don't like Stephen Mayne, take Kochie's word. He wouldn't lie, would he?

http://www.kochie.com.au/the-real-benefits-for-asylum-seekers-in-australia

And when they get here, by orderly means, how would you feel about, say, regional communities taking in asylum seekers on community-based visas? There's lots of country people who would vouch for the new ones?

http://crosslight.org.au/2012/08/22/rooms-for-asylum-seekers-wanted-in-r...

Waddyareckoneh?

" litterately"...phhh! what a dingbat

The case really is closed, as Turner suggests. My fellow lefties, greenies or apoliticals (that's a big word huh nick!) the horrible truth is that there are many nicks out there, many many of them. How do you think such a simpering, weak-kneed populist PM as Howard could get elected in the first place and stay in power for so long. The right is full of such piss-weak whiny college boys (look at Chris Pyne, my god) and their followers like nick just lap up their racist, fear-mongering blather.

sorry about all the big words nick, I'd buy you a dictionary if I knew who you were... but that's right, you're not really interested in being "edumacated" are ya!

That's it for me in this thread. You can't change the minds of morons. But I may join the drinkers thread ... just been trying out Absinthe, at 60% proof. Had to have something strong after stomaching the reality of the "many n(d)icks" in this country... now off to the surf, which is what it's all about... (and if I see you on your goat-boat nick, watch out!!)

DLT when we do see you on the next thread, whether the person involved is a moron or not, I think you should lay off constantly correcting spelling and grammar. It's boring.

Have a good surf.

@DLT. I didn't vote for him and I loath the man, but don't give populism a bad name by associating it with JWH. In some parts of the world's polity, populism is a damn fine thing, and supports people who the elites (including the left) have abandoned. This guy is a good example, and an interesting study.

http://www.jimhightower.com/

You seem to suggest that, by inference, someone who isn't voted in by a majority or whose politic/policies are praised by a minority elite (albeit that they consider themselves intellectually or culturally superior) is better or preferable. In this respect, any of the Kims, George Dubya, Saddam and Lee Kwan Yew spring to mind.

Rather than attacking the person, how about some (fresh) ideas?

Lee Kuan Yew, now there is a real leader. Australian politics is like a gossip rag. Nothing but a bunch of prats on all sides pandering to the emotions of the voters rather then actually doing what is right for the country.
Give me Lee Kuan Yew anyday, what he has done for Singapore in 50 years is nothing short of amazing and the people love him for it. The only democratically elected dictator in the world.

i'll try n make this make this my last post on this one in this "discussion', just wanted to clarify.

firstly nick3 i don't mean to gang up on u in this, and as long as you show respect i will do the same. you have however slammed a bit of abuse my way. in response

1
"How am I getting cranky because I have a opinion" ..... um racist slander thrown at me [ you actually used an incredibly provocative and loaded insult, representative of racial hatred"

2
"Ban my democratic right to have a opinion that doesn't follow your left wing views" I was just trying to make the point that most refugees are seeking shelter from extreme violence and hatred, my point about turning you away from this site was "hypothetical" . We live in a country of free speech and are extremely lucky for that. But if your happy to turn a few crew away from real life situations, why should we not use your logic and turn you away from a discussion, with in which many don't seem to hold your views. better than a bullet to the head so to speak.

3
I do hope you get some waves, but will be slightly cut if u score' cause its dead flat where i am today [human nature i guess]

peace x

hey lads, just a quick clarification... spelling and grammar are my trade zen but I get the point... just wanted nick to reflect on the fact that he may not be the "smartest tool in the shed" and should therefore be open to some of the ideas that many have offered in this thread i.e. Craig's rundown on the first or 2nd page. Whaaat, when I mention populism I mean it in the context of pollies who appeal to the basest common denominator at the time - in the case of Howard, the boat people. In this respect, he was appealing to the underlying racist legacy that exists in this country which raised p.hanson to the heights at one stage, and which this country is based on anyway - dispossession of Aboriginal people, which continues. Anyway, I'm not on here to push a barrow - it's just this topic, started by our beloved nick, is one very close to my heart, having visited detainees when they were in Baxter over a period of several years (and am still in contact with some of them - Sri Lankans and Afghanis - great people)... as for attacking the man, yeah I know, but as Nietzsche once said, "Not by wrath, but by laughter should we slay"... I was hoping to inject a little humour against the abuse of our nick. Anyway, way over this now... back for the 2nd sesh, cheers boys

And Nick, if it came to matching wit with DLT, I'd quit while you're behind.

I'm comfortable with my lot in life, so in my eyes that makes me successful. I live my life by hopefully setting an example. Wit is a byproduct of that. Measuring my intelligence against another person? Couldn't give a fuck.

You should read a little of that intellectual light-weight Jonathan Swift. He sure is a funny bastard.

Correction- He sure 'was' a funny bastard.

I tried to be funny once, even went to Clown College- but I couldn't take it seriously.

Spent 8 great years in the circus as a human cannonball though. They were sad to see me move on. Said they'd never find a man of my calibre again.

@zen.

Boom.

Boom.

Merci mon amis whaaaat, une plaisanterie stupide.

Pumping here today.

Woo hoo!!

Go get into it Zen ya lucky bugger, its been flat here for weeks, even the reef isn't picking anything up. Perfect conditions. oh well ,go fishing instead.

I don,t mind the so called asylum seekers as much as some of the "legal" arrivals. What about all the new brazillian "locals" appearing at out beaches? It was bad enough to have to surf with them in yearly trips to Indo or Hawaii, now it seems like we have our own groups who now reside and live here and numbers seem to grow bigger every year. Why do you never meet just one Brazillian? You will meet on Chiliean , one Peruivian even one Japanese from time to time but The Brazo,s always arrive 4-5 frothing and seem to have no idea about style or manners.
Give me a group of Iraqi immigrants anytime, let,s just cut the number of soft option entry student visas to balance the numbers.

Au contraire, zen, mon ami, je crains que c'était Nicholas qui ne comprennent pas votre blague, comme il est stupid.

I don't really agree with niks sentiments, but this issue is getting a little out of hand, and I believe 'real refugees' whatever that is are getting ripped off. While I am backing nik it is a bit much u guys pick on his spelling etc.not good form even though the temptation is huge when he is bagging everyone else.

This is just my opinion, but I believe many refugees we take are economic refugees to a certain extent. Yeh they are just seeking a better life but isn't a person in an African tent camp with barely any food more entitled to improvement in their situation?

I work in the 'carer' industry with people who have worked with refugees and a lot of them do have a lot of money, one was driven to a macdonalds to pickup a large amount of cash all sponsored by the Australian government. Now this may not be the norm but they do need a lot of cash to make it to oz, and I dare say an African struggling to find food and hiding from machine guns needs our help more than cashed up iraqis.

Now I know we have some responsibility bcos we invaded Iraq bcos of john Howard licking bush's bum, but the 'lefties' that advocate for refugees seem to present the argument we should accept everyone. Maybe I have no idea, but I do not believe Australia has the capacity to take everyone, maybe we have the resources but with our capatalist pig lifestyles it would be an environmental disaster.

"capitalist"

I believe in using our resources to improve the lives of people in 3rd world countries through foreign aid rather then opening up the flood gates and letting our country be overwhelmed by refugees.

AusAid distributes money to N.G.O's(non government organisations) to be spent with a strict criteria that the projects must be self sustaining so as not to create a bottomless hole where money just disappears . "A hand up not a hand out" as they say.

With an adopted SriLankan sister we have some contact with the community here and a few years ago(not long after the 2004 tsunami) my family was contacted to sponsor a SriLankan doctor who wanted to move to Australia. I said to my mum "don't you think he could do more good over there then here?" She agreed and didn't go through with it much to the dissapointment of the people involved.

My point is, is it right to poach doctors and the like from 3rd world countries to save the expense of training our own? Sure they would all like to move here but is it really helping those countries long term? I say no.

Would like to hear what other people think on this subject- bringing in skilled professionals from the 3rd world rather than training our own to save our wealthy country even more money?

Totally agree yorkesurfer regarding the poaching of doctors and nurses to save training, surely these people r more needed in their countries rather than being waitresses, as a nurse girlfriend put it, for petty medical problems, while there is serious problems in their countries. But is this about saving money on training or ozzies being too spoilt or lazy to take these career paths?

Ausaid now does good work as u say YS, by concentrating on sustainable investment and education like in indo but ausaid and the government being the inefficient beasts they r still waste a lot of money. Although their programs r now much better is hard to believe it took them so long to change their ways.

Vote Labour.... Vote for a fair go! Fuck the fat cats and mad monks!

Never posted in this forum before, only really realised it was here this week.

But i think this issue is getting interesting both parties are actually talking about methods that may help for once, good to see Rudd trying to work with our neighbour Indo.

www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-18/indonesia-to-change-visa-requirements-for...

This is just my opinion, but I believe many refugees we take are economic refugees to a certain extent. Yeh they are just seeking a better life but isn't a person in an African tent camp with barely any food more entitled to improvement in their situation?

I work in the 'carer' industry with people who have worked with refugees and a lot of them do have a lot of money, one was driven to a macdonalds to pickup a large amount of cash all sponsored by the Australian government. Now this may not be the norm but they do need a lot of cash to make it to oz, and I dare say an African struggling to find food and hiding from machine guns needs our help more than cashed up iraqis.

, but the 'lefties' that advocate for refugees seem to present the argument we should accept everyone. Maybe I have no idea, but I do not believe Australia has the capacity to take everyone, maybe we have the resources but with our capatalist pig lifestyles it would be an environmental disaster.

By: "sypkan"

Really good point and i totally agree, its not about saying we are not going to help refugees, its about being realistic and trying to help the refuges that are in most need of our help, not just the ones that have the $$$ to turn up on our doorstep.

Its also about being realistic that there is only so much refugees we can take in and only so much budget, so you need to make it all count otherwise your actually screwing over the people that really do need help.

The economic refugee thing is a bit of a farce - doesn't matter how much money you have, you can still be under threat of violence and persecution. Ask yourself this: how much money would it take for you to leave behind your family and friends, take a long, arduous and often fatal journey to a country where you knew that you would be locked up upon arrival, perhaps for an indefinite period of time? A million? A billion? You wouldn't do it? Of course you wouldn't... Not many on earth would, yet many presume it is money that motivates people to come to Australia.

What brought this home for me was when I met a group of Afghan men in Lombok who had been busted trying to make it to Australia. They were all lone men who had banded together in a horrendous journey to make it that far, fathers and sons who thought that trying to get their family out was the only way to help them. They were in complete limbo, unable to speak Indonesian and had no idea what their future held. They were all certain that Australians could help them. I didn't have the heart to tell them that there is a vocal part of Australian society that would rather see their boat turned back than to offer any assistance.

Australians, for the most part, do not understand what it means to be under threat of violence. Most Australians have never witnessed the reality of death- I'd argue most Australians have rarely seen the death of an animal. We lock our parents away as soon as they age for God's sake. Until you have witnessed violence, such as what goes in 'war', or what happens when, for example, a country throws over an authoritarian regime such as I saw in 1998 in Indonesia, then it is very difficult to appreciate what real violence and danger is. There is no orderly queue to follow in such situations.

Dandandan, I agree with 99% of you post, but not this one.

I think theres a few points to make one, the refugees we see turning up on our shores are the financially better off refugees, true they may have sold everything they have to make it here, but some will also be fairly well off, to me accepting these refugees just because they have the money to make it here, is extremely unfair to the people stuck back in danger or sitting in refugee camps closer to there country that can not afford to flee.

To me it creates an unfair playing field to reward those better off refugees, who if have more money possibly also means they have more opportunities to find safety back home etc, money everywhere is power, the more money you have the more power you have the less money you have the more vulnerable you could be and possibly in more danger, although i should note thats not always true as ethnicity and religion also play a part.

Thats one big reason why i think its important that Australia should process refugees outside of Australia and closer to the areas they are fleeing, so those with lesser money have similar opportunity as those with money, not to mention things could be accessed much more accurately and easier, hence quicker and not to mention for a fraction of the price..win win situation.

Among the mix of true refugees, i am absolutely certain there is economic refugees that are in no real life threatening danger or persecution, but i think the hard part is that there is also 100 shades of grey between the black and the white levels of danger and persecution, i know just from my wifes family that even in Indonesia that them being a minority with catholic as there religion living in Solo (home of Bali bombers) that there is a degree of persecution and danger at times, for instance ive been to church at christmas with them (man it was boring) and the church had been threatened with bomb threats, so there was a dozen Indo army guys with guns guarding the place, off course that is a low level of persecution/danger, well as long as no bomb goes off, but obviously not a good enough reason to need to flee as a refugee.

Im sure you know and have had Indonesians ask you how they can come here and work or want you to help them, i get it all the time and they rarely really understand why they cant just hop on a boat and come to Australia and get a job and earn dollar, even when i explain it to them, i have no idea how many illegal immigrants we get from Indonesia, im surprised in itself its not a problem.

Plus we know some people will do anything to get money even those who are already well off, people, murder, cheat, smuggle drugs, they risk everything to have money, they risk there lives and risk spending there life in jail, if your in a situation you don't have anything in a third world country with little future, but know there is a much better life in Australia, and knew you could cheat the system to get in, you may have a go.

When I see those crazy things happen at detention centres, like hunger strike protest and trying to light the place on fire, to me i cant believe there true refugees, if your a true refugee and life has been in danger, you would absolutely appreciate the fact that your safe, and have a roof over your head and well feed and all at a standard of a developed country, even if you were not free to roam for some time things would be 1000% better than the situation the left, the real refugees generally have no need to cause a fuss, its the ones who may not be true refugees who get frustrated and worried they will not be allowed to stay.

Indo - it's good to disagree with me, I'm often wrong haha.

I find it is the helplessness of the situation that makes me take the position I do - Australians are lucky; we colonized a land and never gave it back, we have bugger all people and a butt load of stuff in the dirt that makes us rich. If we lose a job or want to go study we are fully supported by government subsidies. It makes me feel guilty when I see others in horrendous situations, and I wish the Australian government could do more to ease the suffering of others. We do not have to, but I think most Australians are super caring and would go out of their way to help people in distress.

The money thing is definitely an issue; I don't think being poor makes anyone more deserving of assistance than others, and I feel that it is wrong to assume that an asylum seeker must be poor. In a perfect world, and one that I think is completely achievable, refugees would be processed in their own countries in an efficient manner - it would be easier to determine who a genuine refugee is, their history (such as criminal history, for example) but most of all it would mean that men, women and children would not die in boats making off for other countries. I am glad we can agree on that, and I'd hope that all Australians would hope for the same things; fair treatment and less deaths.

As was pointed out by Dimas from Tempo on Q&A, the efficiency of processing claims in Indonesia, as one example, is tremendously slow. Tempo actually did a fantastic piece on the lives of asylum seekers in limbo in Indonesia which made it clear that a significant proportion of asylum seekers would rather enter through the 'legal' channel, but ultimately are unable to; they must wait up to three years, unable to work, living in far off towns to avoid paying exorbitant living costs in Jakarta and Bogor (where the processing centers are). It must be a terribly isolating and frustrating experience and it is little wonder that some make the choice to get in a boat.

I'd love to see this issue removed from our domestic politics - a national response to a global issue is useless. At best it will mean that Australia can protect the integrity of its borders at the cost of lives of largely innocent and desperate people. If all of us lucky countries made a concerted effort to address the real issues rather than domestic politics I think less human beings would die. That's the sort of response I'd like Australia to take part in.