2022 Election
Blessed are the Cheese Makers....
Roadkill wrote:GuySmiley wrote:I’d have slightly less of a problem with what you’re saying Optimist if your churches and their schools paid tax and didn’t receive taxpayers money to run their bigoted operations.
yep. Lots of terrible people run religious schools. The last people that should ever be role models.
Don’t wish to tar all schools with the same brush. Two extended family members teach at christian schools and the principals and school communities strongly oppose this legislation which I suspect the origins of which are the SSM debate, George Brandis “we all have a right to be bigots”, Bolts 18c (indirectly) and the Folau case. This legislation is in search of a problem that doesn’t exist in our community and should be seen for what it really is - extremist religious thought.
Guy, schools don’t pay tax but the parents do and also on average about $100 each student in primary school fees. More for high school. Churches don’t pay tax but provide a broad spectrum of welfare assistance that save the Govt millions a year. I know because I used to run a welfare operation.
Etarip, to get into a Christian school, you need to be a regular church goer with a reference from the minister. It has nothing to do with what your saying. Some kids get into Christian schools because they can’t function in the state system and so are given a chance even though they aren’t christians. The variation in the legislation protects them even if gay. Gay teachers wouldn’t usually apply anyway as they don’t believe the ethos so are best suited to state learning. They also need references from their minister or pastor.
Roadkill, lots of terrible people everywhere, and some imposters in churches too.
Andy, the old system stood for Millenia, modernism has society crumbling in less than 100 years.
Guy again, perhaps you should re read the amendments to the legislation and also allow Australians the freedom of choice in their lives instead of the communist and or fascist way of thinking where you say believe what I believe or else. Without the freedom in this country to choose your own path and find your space in the world without dictating to others how to live and how to believe, we have no country at all and all the anzacs and freedom fighters of the past died for nothing but the will of a dictatorial modernist society.
And that’s all I’m gunna say bout that.
Optimist wrote:Guy, schools don’t pay tax but the parents do and also on average about $100 each student in primary school fees. More for high school. Churches don’t pay tax but provide a broad spectrum of welfare assistance that save the Govt millions a year. I know because I used to run a welfare operation.
Etarip, to get into a Christian school, you need to be a regular church goer with a reference from the minister. It has nothing to do with what your saying. Some kids get into Christian schools because they can’t function in the state system and so are given a chance even though they aren’t christians. The variation in the legislation protects them even if gay. Gay teachers wouldn’t usually apply anyway as they don’t believe the ethos so are best suited to state learning. They also need references from their minister or pastor.
Roadkill, lots of terrible people everywhere, and some imposters in churches too.
Andy, the old system stood for Millenia, modernism has society crumbling in less than 100 years.
Guy again, perhaps you should re read the amendments to the legislation and also allow Australians the freedom of choice in their lives instead of the communist and or fascist way of thinking where you say believe what I believe or else. Without the freedom in this country to choose your own path and find your space in the world without dictating to others how to live and how to believe, we have no country at all and all the anzacs and freedom fighters of the past died for nothing but the will of a dictatorial modernist society.
And that’s all I’m gunna say bout that.
"And that’s all I’m gunna say bout that." I hope so.
Education institutions dont pay tax because they are exempt. Fair enough, they serve a public good. However, independent schools receive about $12 000 per student annually from the Federal and State governments, so taxpayer dollars. They are free to give it back if they don't want to follow the expectations of the wider community (the taxpayers) but they do not, their belief systems don't seem to go that far. As noted above, there are plenty of faith-based school communities that don't think this new bill is either required or justified. The only ones who do support it are those on the margins who base their right to discriminate on a limited interpretation of a old book. There are plenty of variations of that book as well.
What would Jesus do?
Love, acceptance, tolerance amongst other things.
What do hard line Christian schools do?
The ACL are a pack of scumbags.
They are just like the anti-vax/mandate/qanon nutters who constantly need to make up new enemies, problems, threats and events.
Without a big bad bogieman, there's no point having an ACL. And that means grifters lose jobs.
This year's bogieman is gay kids in so called Christian schools.
Fuck you'd think their followers would wise up after the sky didn't fall in after the Same Sex Marriage legislation passed.
School fee edit…..$100 weekly or average 5k annually in school fees. Then, the govt adds some of what they would have spent on public education per student to top the private schools up. Parents are paying for their children to exist and educate within their belief system and those who don’t share their beliefs should be happy to get on with their own lives with the things they believe. Then, everyone can get on with life with respect for all.
Is the leader of scummo's church in jail yet? Hillsong - Brian Houston. The last I heard he had temporarily stepped down while he was fighting charges of covering up his dad's sexual abuse of children.
"What was Brian Houston accused of?
concealing child sexual abuse
The Australian founder of the global Hillsong Church will plead not guilty to charges of concealing child sexual abuse. Brian Houston, 67, was charged by police in Australia in August following a two-year investigation.5 Oct 2021"
Optimist wrote:Guy, schools don’t pay tax but the parents do and also on average about $100 each student in primary school fees. More for high school. Churches don’t pay tax but provide a broad spectrum of welfare assistance that save the Govt millions a year. I know because I used to run a welfare operation.
Etarip, to get into a Christian school, you need to be a regular church goer with a reference from the minister. It has nothing to do with what your saying. Some kids get into Christian schools because they can’t function in the state system and so are given a chance even though they aren’t christians. The variation in the legislation protects them even if gay. Gay teachers wouldn’t usually apply anyway as they don’t believe the ethos so are best suited to state learning. They also need references from their minister or pastor.
Roadkill, lots of terrible people everywhere, and some imposters in churches too.
Andy, the old system stood for Millenia, modernism has society crumbling in less than 100 years.
Guy again, perhaps you should re read the amendments to the legislation and also allow Australians the freedom of choice in their lives instead of the communist and or fascist way of thinking where you say believe what I believe or else. Without the freedom in this country to choose your own path and find your space in the world without dictating to others how to live and how to believe, we have no country at all and all the anzacs and freedom fighters of the past died for nothing but the will of a dictatorial modernist society.
And that’s all I’m gunna say bout that.
I admire your strength you gain from your faith, but i'm calling bullshit to the above. That is how you create an inconclusive society. As the saying goes... and jesus wept.
Muslim schools in Australia don't get much publicity but I don't see anyone here calling them out for only employing Muslim teachers and only enrolling Muslim students. Pretty certain they wouldn't employ/enrol gays but heh, Christians are always an easy target.
Cockee wrote:Muslim schools in Australia don't get much publicity but I don't see anyone here calling them out for only employing Muslim teachers and only enrolling Muslim students. Pretty certain they wouldn't employ/enrol gays but heh, Christians are always an easy target.
That's because it's simply not true. Most Muslim schools have a mix of teachers from different or no religions.
Try and be better cockee. This was very silly dog whistling at best.
haha cockee, the elephant in the room and that's a firking big jumbo
Secular institutions have always existed and will, it's when any of any of these ideologies or faiths try to dictate their terms or their beliefs to the wider society as policy. Through this adopted government policy, it starts to be seen as a agenda serving process. At the expense of society as a whole, and in some countries this has had divisive and repugnant outcomes. Will they be telling me to go burn my Slayer/ Sabbath cd's next? Because I know hell awaits.
Example of Vic being 'better' - 'The crooks in the LNP don't want an ICAC. The Christian lunatics certainly don't want to protect gay kids or teachers'. Not afraid to (selectively) dog whistle either. FYI Crooks exist in the ALP Vic. The red shirts scandal ring any bells? Labor lawyers advised ALP not to cooperate with police or the Ombudsman but everything is fine and dandy according to Vic.
A former work colleague immigrated here from the UK. Strongly of the Jewish faith but not orthodox he was staggered so-called private schools here received any govt funding as it did not happen in the UK where private schools were privately funded. In the UK and I suspect the US the state only funds public education and if parents want to exercise their “freedom of choice” that’s fine so long as they (fully) pay for the privilege. So stop your complaining optimist your mob have it good here.
GuySmiley wrote:A former work colleague immigrated here from the UK. Strongly of the Jewish faith but not orthodox he was staggered so-called private schools here received any govt funding as it did not happen in the UK where private schools were privately funded. In the UK and I suspect the US the state only funds public education and if parents want to exercise their “freedom of choice” that’s fine so long as they (fully) pay for the privilege. So stop your complaining optimist your mob have it good here.
And this is how the gap demographically and socially widens when we can be closing the gap in a number of areas. And If their isn't a class system in Australia we are well and truly making one by further division.
No complaints from me guy, just trying to teach people like you what freedom looks like. Parents saving the govt money by paying a big chunk of their education costs would be most welcome by them I’m sure….and I’m all for free education and believe in free medical etc etc… I just don’t have your communist beliefs of “my views or else “kind of attitude.
Cockee wrote:Muslim schools in Australia don't get much publicity but I don't see anyone here calling them out for only employing Muslim teachers and only enrolling Muslim students. Pretty certain they wouldn't employ/enrol gays but heh, Christians are always an easy target.
Hate to say it but a quick google does show VL is right they do actually employee non muslim teachers in Australia but you would expect only because there wouldn't be enough muslim teachers to fill the roles and i doubt they like doing so and i doubt they would hire practising Christian teachers and yeah i highly doubt they would hire gay teachers.
But yeah people love to hate on Christians but the same people would never dare hate on Muslims.
This bill would be supported by Muslim schools and students parents as strongly or possibly stronger than most Christian schools as would affect them as much possibly even more.
That’s twice you have accused me of holding communist views Optimist, do your resurchin on which Australia PM first started funding private and religious schools and the reasons why it was so .... you really are a silly silly individual aren’t you.
This thread was interesting until…fucking religion get involved. There is a religious thread
Indo, it's not about hating anybody, it's about not enshrining discrimination and hate into law. The proposed law is across the board Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu whatever. There is a small, vocal group who see some of their own in Government, and are pushing for their "rights" to be considered above others. A real minority too, less than 2% of school students.
In the 2019 election the ALP performed badly in the Bible Belt in Sydney's West. It was one of the key demographics that got Scumo over the line.
This legislation isn't solving any problems. The sky wouldn't fall if conservative Christian schools can't throw out gay kids or teachers due to their sexuality.
This legislation is simply about raw politics, firing up the homophobes, and getting their votes. When gay kids suffer the consequences, that turd Scumo simply doesn't care.
There's a very good reason why this legislation is being introduced just before the election. And to add insult to injury, the LNP are saying they can't introduce bills for an ICAC because the "Religious Freedom" bullshit takes priority.
The LNP is filled with absolute scum.
Optimist wrote:Etarip, to get into a Christian school, you need to be a regular church goer with a reference from the minister. It has nothing to do with what your saying. Some kids get into Christian schools because they can’t function in the state system and so are given a chance even though they aren’t christians. The variation in the legislation protects them even if gay. Gay teachers wouldn’t usually apply anyway as they don’t believe the ethos so are best suited to state learning. They also need references from their minister or pastor..
This is largely untrue. How do I know? Because I know a number of families (>5) in my circle of friends that have their kids enrolled in Christian schools, despite not being Christian. None of them have needed a reference. They’ve had to say that they’re Christian, but do nothing to prove it. As for making blanket statements about what ‘gay teachers’ think… are we still doing this?
I don’t think you’ve addressed my point at all. If a Christian school can discriminate on the basis of sexuality (biological, not a ‘choice’) why can’t my business discriminate on the basis of religion (a choice, an act of free will)?
PS: I’m happy for parents to choose to pay to educate their children in their belief system. But you choose, you pay. And if your school receives a single cent of public funding, you abide by the rules of the land and don’t discriminate on the basis of sexuality or gender identity or you know what, even faith.
After reading the comments above, you can see why people of faith need some protection. I hope the people lying their way into schools because they like them better don’t try to change them. Don’t destroy what you came to enjoy.. eh…
The 2022 election is a major turning point for the path Australia goes down. Think hard about what freedoms you want for your country and for your children and their children. Who will be the dictators and who will allow freedom of choice. It’s pretty important don’t you think.
No Optimist you and your extremist religious views are out of whack from those of a modern secular society which includes tolerant people of all faiths. It is the secular society that needs protection from your extreme views and bigotry.
Being a bit sensitive there Optimist. Most of the posts above are not offensive or aggressive but people disagree with your premise of exceptionalism and entitlement. No harm being nice to one another, regardless of faith system or sexual orientation.
The real problem with all this stuff really starts to come in more with gender stuff than gay issues.
For instance should a Christian or Muslim school have the right to ensure toilets and change rooms etc are only used by biological females or should they be forced to believe a biological male is female if they feel they are and that a biological male can then enter and use the safe space reserved for biological females?
Or should a school be forced to allow trans males compete against females?
The belief in gender rather than sex is actually very similar to religion, it's not based on evidence its completely based on a belief that cant be proven, its completely in the head of the believer..
We are already seeing people who dont believe in the concept of gender being banned from social media Youtube etc for following the science and saying common sense things like there is only two genders and someone born male for instance will always be biological male, or than men can't have babies or change genders every second day or be some made up gender from an ever growing list.
Just like religion beliefs shouldn't be forced on people (or schools), we all should be able to say, God/Allah doesn't exist Christianity is a fairly tale, just like we should be able to say Gender is a hoax and doesn't exist only biological sex does.
God let's not even began talking about the ridiculous pronoun crap
#Followthescience #Exceptthistime
Wow ID, I mean wow.
Show us exactly where and when religious schools have, or been pressured to have. trans people in school sport or toilet issues.
What's with the hard right making up problems where the only way to "solve" them is to punch down on vulnerable people.
Let's be honest here ID, this ramping up of the culture wars is a campaign play. Nothing more nothing less.
Christ, being a binary teenager is hard enough. WhyTF should any government legislate so organisations can legally discriminate against teenagers based on their sexuality because it's part of their faith.
Sorry ID, but if a person's religion requires them to marginalise really vulnerable people, they've kinda lost the original message of their god / prophet.
Meanwhile real problems like RAT procurement and rampant corruption go unsolved by this pack of LNP scumbags because they are hell bent on traumatising vulnerable teens to win the god-botherers vote.
Red shirts Vic? Dan's hotel private security Vic? Just keep blaming the Libs mate. BTW Vic would be OK with the hotel arrangements because even tho the guards got no training in safety, they did get 'diversity training'.
Vic Local wrote:Wow ID, I mean wow.
Show us exactly where and when religious schools have, or been pressured to have. trans people in school sport or toilet issues.
What's with the hard right making up problems where the only way to "solve" them is to punch down on vulnerable people.
Let's be honest here ID, this ramping up of the culture wars is a campaign play. Nothing more nothing less.
Christ, being a binary teenager is hard enough. WhyTF should any government legislate so organisations can legally discriminate against teenagers based on their sexuality because it's part of their faith.
Sorry ID, but if a person's religion requires them to marginalise really vulnerable people, they've kinda lost the original message of their god / prophet.
Meanwhile real problems like RAT procurement and rampant corruption go unsolved by this pack of LNP scumbags because they are hell bent on traumatising vulnerable teens to win the god-botherers vote.
what a ridiculous post full of diversion and denial
everybody knows which way this debate is heading, there's already trans athletes at the olympics level, making an absolute mockery of any concept of fair play
there's already trans athletes in US school sports
there's already huge debate about bathrooms, with a hell of a lot of feminists concerned about sharing bathrooms with dicks
to say indo and the right are making issues up as some culture war diversion from real problems is just pure simple gaslighting from the fake left
is that all you guys do now?
lie, cheat, and present some warped view of reality so you can shoehorn some radical agenda that appeases a noisy minority through the back door
you are pathetic mate, so bloody predictable on every topic, with your nauseating fake reality language and diversions...
just full of absolute bullshit basically
games up gaslight man, you cannot deflect and divert from the bleeding obvious like you once could, deal with it
people care about this stuff because it matters, not because it is some fake bullshit boogeymen from the right
there's lots of fake, and lots of bullshit, but it ain't where you place it
Sypkan "there's lots of fake, and lots of bullshit, but it ain't where you place it"
So enlighten us Sypkan, instead of the cryptic clues, put some substance to your continual generalizations. Tell us why it is important and necessary to discriminate against these people, and why this is the issue wasting the parliaments time in the only two sitting weeks before the election.
You ever met a transexual Sypkan?
its not necessary to discriminate against these people
but to deny there aren't things to nut out, and that the only way forward, is a radical agenda that ignores a hell of a lot of science, and then uses science, to give undeveloped kids puberty blockers etc before they even know if they're boy, girl, trans... or just gay etc. is fucking dumb...
there's much more to these arguments than binary morons like vicvocal present...
not that binary
ha
Let’s cut to the chase, the current debate is all about the LNP appeasing religious conservatives following the SSM legislation vote. The reasons why we need this new legislation eg trans toilets are confected and easily solved with goodwill instead of the current bigotry. It’s all part of the hard rights ideological cultural wars and their perennial need for an external enemy. If the Christian god preached love why the hate here? Kids don’t choose to be gay or trans and they deserve just as much care and love from society as anyone else.
Hilarious sypkan. The “problem “ is non existent in Australia so you have to point to some non specific example in the USA. I’m going to suggest this “problem” has zero impact on your life and you wouldn’t even be aware of it if sky news or some other alt right organisation didn’t ram it down your throat. Without a culture war, you’d pretty much go blissfully unaware about the “HUGE” problem of trans kids in religious schools.
Do we need to form a support network to help you cope mate?
Like I said before. This insane legislation is just culture war nonsense that tries to hide the fact this shitful corrupt incompetent govt is fucking hopeless. ICAC legislation has been shelved so this crap can take priority. What a joke.
GuySmiley wrote:Let’s cut to the chase, the current debate is all about the LNP appeasing religious conservatives following the SSM legislation vote. The reasons why we need this new legislation eg trans toilets are confected. It’s all part of the hard rights ideological cultural wars and their perennial need for an external enemy. If the Christian god preached love why the hate here? Kids don’t choose to be gay or trans and they deserve just as much care and love as anyone else.
well thats your perspective guysmiley... from a forever very biased viewpoint...
this is the bullshit of the ssm debate... it was advocated on the premise that nothing would change... there'snothing to worry about...
well that's true... for the vast vast majority of people...
but it is not true for a heap of situations, and developing legislation to deal with those situations
to argue otherwise, it's just plain naive, or yet more hyper partisan bullshit...
dude, the left picked this culture war... if you are too lazy or self righteous to see the nutting out of legislation to deal with your wish list, then your just beimg exactly what optimist accuses you of
...dictatorial... be it communist or not...
keep minimising moron...
deflection, denial...
pure gaslighting
again...
So Howard changing the definition of marriage in the Marriage Act which caused 20 years of hurtful debate in our community leading to the SSM vote was all a left wing plot sypkan?
GuySmiley wrote:So Howard changing the definition of marriage in the Marriage Act which caused 20 years of hurtful debate in our community leading to the SSM vote was all a left wing plot sypkan?
dumb argument
you might have a lame point...
but the debate has turbo charged and moved well well beyond that
pretty sure howard wasn't pushing that part
its clearly not me with my non binary knickers in a knot...
the hyperventilating seems to be all one sided
again...
sypkan][quote=GuySmiley wrote:dude, the left picked this culture war...
.
What??
To contest the current debate isn’t the LNP appeasing religious conservatives following the SSM vote is utter lunacy sypkan. You’re better than that.
the lunacy is thinking you can push one through without the other...
as to appeasing... the lefts doing a lot of minority appeasing too!!
that's what political parties do - represent their constituents...
but, it ain't just about a minority...
clearly non religious people like indo have a position that may be inconvenient to you, but it is just as important that you appease that too, because if you haven't got the middle... you've got nothing...
I have a position too
I personally think its ridiculous that a religious school cannot chose staff that suits their ethos... then I read etarip's post and thought... yeh he's right regarding public money...
but I also think if etarip doesn't want to hire a religious nutter he should have that right too... ffs you must work with them everyday... of course you'll choose people you can get along with...
the thing is, people already do this stuff every single day, it only comes to a head when there is an issue... or a change...
well, we just went through a pretty fundamental change, denial of that, and the need for corresponding legislation is a pretty dumb political position to take...
but hey, carry on gasworks..
"The left picked this"
No Spkan, the right picked it.
The LNP.
Their legislation.
They are the government.
They shelved an election promise to introduce a federal ICAC to put this dribble up.
Trans kids need protection. They are vulnerable. This shit is cruel.
VicLocal I’m with you brother. Howard was a nasty piece of work, set Australia back culturally (and before you crucify me with, oh yeah but economically he was great), fucking rubbish, it’s easy to show enhanced economic growth when you are pulling funds from here there and everywhere, he was just a money shuffler. A total penny pinching war monger(how much did our involvement in the Iraq war cost us financially and the loss of innocent lives). His party was great at not spending, often funds allocated for certain initiatives often had their budgets diluted well before it was used. Howard kept one of Australia’s earliest first Solar for Homes incentive schemes completely quiet and was only found out just before he parted, a true cunt. I only know this because our family was to be engaged in the program and got startling communications from ‘them’ that it’s been drastically reduced and allocated to only a few. Conservative (religious) leaders after him are just the same. We have an appalling rate of mammal extinction in this country, mostly to do with habit destruction/unnecessary land clearing, but yep, let’s ignore all scientific data and plough on with $500 billion proposals for more land clearing and so called development. Australia’s carrying capacity is 12 million people we’ve doubled that so we are screwed, yet head shaking decisions still prevail. How can we be as dumb as dogshit all the time ? Religious views should form no part of judgement on any matters pertaining to the health of Australia or the planet. Little Johnny- ‘ There’s No Life or Economy on a Dead Planet’, mate.
'They are the government.'
representing their constituents... dealing with an issue the left raised...
pretty simple stuff
seems you guys are unhappy with democratic process...
These tricky and sensitive social issues are not really my forte, so the following might be a bit naive.
But for my 2 cents worth, when I read the bill itself, a few alarm bells start to ring.
It starts off fantastic in terms of its aim being to prevent discrimination on the basis of religion:
I support anything that seeks to further reinforce human rights, dignity and freedom, etc, as the bill mentions in terms things like non-discrimination, equal rights in law, acceptance of different beliefs, freedom of expression, indivisibility and universality of human rights.
But Part 2 of the act then seems to go and encode in law grounds for religious bodies and organisations to be able to discriminate against the general non-religious public, and against other religions. It does this by trying to outline conditions upon which certain actions or behaviours are deemed as not discrimination. It also seems to (intentionally) leave these conditions and grounds quite vague and open to significant interpretation, so that they can be interpreted and applied by the courts in a wider manner and range of scenarios than people may currently expect or desire.
This is very dangerous. Off the top of my head, two things come to mind.
First, it seems to encode in law grounds for further division and polarisation in society, at a time when we kind of already have enough of that.
Second, the whole act seems to shift the balance of freedoms towards religious bodies at the expense of the non-religious public: it encodes non-discrimination on the basis of religion (which is great), but gives religious people and bodies the ability to discriminate against non-religious people, on quite vague grounds.
Based on my superficial understanding of these social issues and slightly hasty reading of the act, I think Part 2 should be deleted completely.
Some of you guys are missing the point. The legislation is about freedom. It’s not to hurt anyone but to bring us in line with international law where you have the right to choose. Look at Israel Folau, he put up two lines from the bible on his PERSONAL social media pages, something he did a lot. Alan Joyce from Qantas sees it and wants his blood and goes after him until he destroys him not only from rugby but unlawfully uses his CEO power to stop him playing anything in Australia full stop. At the same time, he is trying to sell his Qantas catering wing to Emirates where the United Arab Emirates execute gays and all LGTQ etc etc people. What a hypocrite. This is what has to change…everyone has a way of living and believing how they should live what they can say and honour God or not . It’s a free choice and covered by international law for human rights….except in Australia it seems. That’s what the bill is trying to fix.
yep
can I get an amen to that?
probably not...
.