The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

bluediamond started the topic in

Sunday, 25 Jul 2021 at 1:26pm

Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x

Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.

Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.

Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.

The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.

Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??

Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28

Supafreak Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 5:05pm

Indo Im honestly not trying to razz you up , don’t take this the wrong way but to be honest you’re not that important. Your razzed when anyone bags your heroes, avi , J P , little johnny , rush someone ? The list goes on , if you can’t see that JP and mundine along with your other hero spud have been telling porky pies on social media then well you are more than a bit naive . Have a good night indo .

Supafreak Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 6:19pm

BTW indo I use duck duck go as my search engine not google, I was wondering why I couldn’t find the links you posted, then it clicked , so you’re on the wrong track about me cherry picking the lowest amount which in fact was $500,000. Again believe what you will . https://www.searchenginejournal.com/google-vs-duckduckgo/301997/

loungelizard Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 6:31pm

go indo , game set and match over supafreak who as usual resorts to ad hominem attacks when exposed

Supafreak Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 6:37pm

Hahaha , yeah indo’s not dodging the lies being told by JP , nice one lounge lizard .

andy-mac Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 6:49pm

Indigenous industry, if only they had as much say in things as say mining industry.... Or IPA???? Imagine if they had a Voice???
Jeez all from same script, leftist, woke, indigenous industry, academic, Marxist.... Graduate language from the University of Andrew Bolt ....

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 6:52pm

Supafreak wrote:
Indo Im honestly not trying to razz you up , don’t take this the wrong way but to be honest you’re not that important. Your razzed when anyone bags your heroes, avi , J P , little johnny , rush someone ? The list goes on , if you can’t see that JP and mundine along with your other hero spud have been telling porky pies on social media then well you are more than a bit naive . Have a good night indo .

Im sorry but just because i follow or enjoy a persons media channel doest mean they are a hero of mine or that i agree with everything they say, and im not even a fan of Dutton.

No idea what you think are porky pies???

But if you want to talk about being very misleading you only have to look at the whole yes campaign that is extremely misleading trying to mix indigenous indigenous constitutional recognition with the voice and these are adverts on TV.

Not to mention are just trying to guilt trip people into voting Yes.

Supafreak Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:00pm

@indo if you have no idea what the porky pies ( lies ) are that are being told on social media then you haven’t been following or reading the articles posted on this thread .

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:13pm

andy-mac wrote:
Indigenous industry, if only they had as much say in things as say mining industry.... Or IPA???? Imagine if they had a Voice???
Jeez all from same script, leftist, woke, indigenous industry, academic, Marxist.... Graduate language from the University of Andrew Bolt ....

Sorry but there is a whole shitload of indigenous voices.

11 in parliament and said to be up to 100 other bodies that represent and provide feedback and advice etc (that number presented my some media might be up for dispute but there is still a decent amount out there)

This whole idea is not new, the difference is only in how its been repackaged and wanting to have it cemented in the constitution

But all that aside the whole idea indigenous people are some how different to the rest of Australians with different needs is a pretty racist concept, we are all just humans with the same basic needs to flourish.

BTW. if you dont want to describe the whole thing as "indigenous industry" what would you prefer to call it?

Supafreak Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:07pm

What’s new indo is the people that will represent FNP for the voice to parliament aren’t hand picked by the government of the day , they are elected by FNPs , big difference.

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:09pm

Supafreak wrote:
@indo if you have no idea what the porky pies ( lies ) are that are being told on social media then you haven’t been following or reading the articles posted on this thread .

Considering you go over the same things time after time, im assuming its got to do with the files JP uncovered?

If so i gave an answer and reply on this.

BTW. Just having a quick look through JP's facebook post from the last few weeks, i still cant see any post about this, so doesnt seem to be her focus at all.

Supafreak Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:13pm

Scroll up indo

andy-mac Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:18pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Indigenous industry, if only they had as much say in things as say mining industry.... Or IPA???? Imagine if they had a Voice???
Jeez all from same script, leftist, woke, indigenous industry, academic, Marxist.... Graduate language from the University of Andrew Bolt ....

Sorry but there is a whole shitload of indigenous voices.

11 in parliament and said to be up to 100 other bodies that represent and provide feedback and advice etc (that number presented my some media might be up for dispute but there is still a decent amount out there)

This whole idea is not new, the difference is only in how its been repackaged and wanting to have it cemented in the constitution

But all that aside the whole idea indigenous people are some how different to the rest of Australians with different needs is a pretty racist concept, we are all just humans with the same basic needs to flourish.

BTW. if you dont want to describe the whole thing as "indigenous industry" what would you prefer to call it?

Geez do you really believe that people think indigenous people are different and are going to have some rights non indigenous Australians are going to have? They are a disadvantaged group no matter which indicator you look at, if giving them a Voice that the next Tory govt cannot cancel is going to help even a little for their welfare, then that's probably worth giving a go...
The nonsense about changing flag and Albo's secret plan is just cookoo land stuff ..
Anyway carry on.....

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:26pm

andy-mac wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Indigenous industry, if only they had as much say in things as say mining industry.... Or IPA???? Imagine if they had a Voice???
Jeez all from same script, leftist, woke, indigenous industry, academic, Marxist.... Graduate language from the University of Andrew Bolt ....

Sorry but there is a whole shitload of indigenous voices.

11 in parliament and said to be up to 100 other bodies that represent and provide feedback and advice etc (that number presented my some media might be up for dispute but there is still a decent amount out there)

This whole idea is not new, the difference is only in how its been repackaged and wanting to have it cemented in the constitution

But all that aside the whole idea indigenous people are some how different to the rest of Australians with different needs is a pretty racist concept, we are all just humans with the same basic needs to flourish.

BTW. if you dont want to describe the whole thing as "indigenous industry" what would you prefer to call it?

Geez do you really believe that people think indigenous people are different and are going to have some rights non indigenous Australians are going to have? They are a disadvantaged group no matter which indicator you look at, if giving them a Voice that the next Tory govt cannot cancel is going to help even a little for their welfare, then that's probably worth giving a go...
The nonsense about changing flag and Albo's secret plan is just cookoo land stuff ..
Anyway carry on.....

Huh what are babbling on about.?

Do you think indigenous people are somehow different to you and me or not?

I dont.

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:31pm

Supafreak wrote:
Scroll up indo

Okay must be your post about some ad BS. (not that anyone should trust ABC fact checks, or any fact checks these days)

Yeah well no surprise as the Yes campaign has been extremely misleading, so i guess they think they can do the same.

andy-mac Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:35pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Indigenous industry, if only they had as much say in things as say mining industry.... Or IPA???? Imagine if they had a Voice???
Jeez all from same script, leftist, woke, indigenous industry, academic, Marxist.... Graduate language from the University of Andrew Bolt ....

Sorry but there is a whole shitload of indigenous voices.

11 in parliament and said to be up to 100 other bodies that represent and provide feedback and advice etc (that number presented my some media might be up for dispute but there is still a decent amount out there)

This whole idea is not new, the difference is only in how its been repackaged and wanting to have it cemented in the constitution

But all that aside the whole idea indigenous people are some how different to the rest of Australians with different needs is a pretty racist concept, we are all just humans with the same basic needs to flourish.

BTW. if you dont want to describe the whole thing as "indigenous industry" what would you prefer to call it?

Geez do you really believe that people think indigenous people are different and are going to have some rights non indigenous Australians are going to have? They are a disadvantaged group no matter which indicator you look at, if giving them a Voice that the next Tory govt cannot cancel is going to help even a little for their welfare, then that's probably worth giving a go...
The nonsense about changing flag and Albo's secret plan is just cookoo land stuff ..
Anyway carry on.....

Huh what are babbling on about.?

Do you think indigenous people are somehow different to you and me or not?

I dont.

As a human being, no. As far as their history as a group goes, intergenerational trauma and disadvantages go, yep very different....
Hence the reason for a Voice ...
If you cannot understand that simple concept, then Ah well whatever....

Supafreak Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:40pm

So no comment indo on the blatant lies and deception that mundine and price run their no campaign on ? This is one example. It makes me think why do they need to attempt to deceive the public and use innocent FNPs as pawns, is it because they don’t have a decent argument so let’s try to win at any cost ? And what happened in Alice Springs ? Did spud & JP finally report the sexual predators and child abusers to the police or did they just think it had already been done ? I’ve no doubt indo you will make excuses for their behavior, I just don’t understand why . https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/factlab-meta/man-wrongly-portrayed-as-grand... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-02/fact-check-fair-australia-not-eno...

Supafreak Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:49pm

@indo , when JP got her promotion I congratulated her on this forum & said I hope she kicks some goals , but she has been extremely disappointing and is running a dirty deceitful misleading campaign. Is this the type of person you want running the country as you have previously stated she would make a great PM ?

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:55pm

And what about the YES campaign complete deception????

I mean seriously dude.

Oh yeah and lets just keep pretending that the issues of sexual abuse doesn't happen, there is shitloads of stats and evidence it does even though the whole nature/culture of these communities is to be silent for various reasons, respect of others, fear of others, fear of payback , fear of being rejected from family and community.

Supafreak Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 7:59pm

indo-dreaming wrote:
Supafreak wrote:
Scroll up indo

Okay must be your post about some ad BS. (not that anyone should trust ABC fact checks, or any fact checks these days)

Yeah well no surprise as the Yes campaign has been extremely misleading, so i guess they think they can do the same.

Indo this story has been published by many media outlets not just the abc , duckduckgo it . For instance, Mundine and Country Liberal Senator Jacinta Nampijinpa Price recently used a quote for their “no” campaign from a Northern Territory man named Stewart Lingiari. Mundine and Price claimed Stewart was a descendant of renowned Aboriginal rights activist Vincent Lingiari. https://theconversation.com/how-we-can-avoid-political-misinformation-in...

indo-dreaming Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 8:03pm

So what do you think about the Yes camps misleading campaign????

And just the whole guilt type tactic's?

You dont seem to want to talk about this????

Supafreak Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 8:16pm

Can you give me some examples please on what’s misleading from the yes voice campaign , I’m also not following you on the guilt tactics, what are you being made to feel guilty about ? You can accuse me of not wanting to talk about it but you haven’t asked me anything yet so ….,,

GuySmiley Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 8:14pm

More bullshit from the NO camp

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/coalition-mps-under-fire-over...

southernraw Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 8:48pm

andy-mac wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Indigenous industry, if only they had as much say in things as say mining industry.... Or IPA???? Imagine if they had a Voice???
Jeez all from same script, leftist, woke, indigenous industry, academic, Marxist.... Graduate language from the University of Andrew Bolt ....

Sorry but there is a whole shitload of indigenous voices.

11 in parliament and said to be up to 100 other bodies that represent and provide feedback and advice etc (that number presented my some media might be up for dispute but there is still a decent amount out there)

This whole idea is not new, the difference is only in how its been repackaged and wanting to have it cemented in the constitution

But all that aside the whole idea indigenous people are some how different to the rest of Australians with different needs is a pretty racist concept, we are all just humans with the same basic needs to flourish.

BTW. if you dont want to describe the whole thing as "indigenous industry" what would you prefer to call it?

Geez do you really believe that people think indigenous people are different and are going to have some rights non indigenous Australians are going to have? They are a disadvantaged group no matter which indicator you look at, if giving them a Voice that the next Tory govt cannot cancel is going to help even a little for their welfare, then that's probably worth giving a go...
The nonsense about changing flag and Albo's secret plan is just cookoo land stuff ..
Anyway carry on.....

Spot on mate. This is a human rights issue.
Not a race issue.

andy-mac Tuesday, 6 Jun 2023 at 8:51pm

southernraw wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:
andy-mac wrote:
Indigenous industry, if only they had as much say in things as say mining industry.... Or IPA???? Imagine if they had a Voice???
Jeez all from same script, leftist, woke, indigenous industry, academic, Marxist.... Graduate language from the University of Andrew Bolt ....

Sorry but there is a whole shitload of indigenous voices.

11 in parliament and said to be up to 100 other bodies that represent and provide feedback and advice etc (that number presented my some media might be up for dispute but there is still a decent amount out there)

This whole idea is not new, the difference is only in how its been repackaged and wanting to have it cemented in the constitution

But all that aside the whole idea indigenous people are some how different to the rest of Australians with different needs is a pretty racist concept, we are all just humans with the same basic needs to flourish.

BTW. if you dont want to describe the whole thing as "indigenous industry" what would you prefer to call it?

Geez do you really believe that people think indigenous people are different and are going to have some rights non indigenous Australians are going to have? They are a disadvantaged group no matter which indicator you look at, if giving them a Voice that the next Tory govt cannot cancel is going to help even a little for their welfare, then that's probably worth giving a go...
The nonsense about changing flag and Albo's secret plan is just cookoo land stuff ..
Anyway carry on.....

Spot on mate. This is a human rights issue.
Not a race issue.

Zackly!

Supafreak Wednesday, 7 Jun 2023 at 10:42am

Are we all really treated equally in Australia ? https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2023/jun/05/pre...

Jelly Flater Wednesday, 7 Jun 2023 at 10:22pm

- today the qld gov officially changed the name of ‘fraser island’ back to its original traditional name ;)

‘…the move corrects a historic wrong for the butchulla people, who live by three key lores: what is good for the land must come first ; if you have plenty you must share ; and do not touch or take anything that does not belong to you’.

To the original inhabitants this island only ever had one name.

K’gari.

stunet Thursday, 8 Jun 2023 at 9:45am

^^^ Rolling on from above:

Similar things are occurring elsewhere, and I dont really have an opinion this way or that on OG names, however while watching the recent Oz version of 'Alone' I noticed the recurring use of the Indigenuous place name 'lutruwita' and the people who populated it, the palawa.

Being an anal editor the lack of capitalisation drove me spare; had me silently correcting it each time they came on screen.

Curious why it was the case, I went looking for answers. Turns out the Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre decreed that because Palawa Kani is an oral language they've 'discontinued' capitals and grammar.

That decision shows a poor grasp of history.

Except for a few recent languages such as Afrikaans and Pidgin languages, every language on Earth was once an oral language. There's nothing particular about that. They all evolved to meet written needs, including the creation of grammar and syntax.

If you've ever read early religious scripts, penned before the conventions of grammar and syntax, you'll appreciate what a powerful concept they are. Think page length blocks of text with no paragraphs, no grammar such as commas to seperate clauses and pause thought, and in fact no sentence structure at all. Finding meaning is supremely difficult.

Ostensibly, that's what Palawa Kani aspires too.

Fact is, it's not merely an oral language anymore. For example, not a single person has spoken 'lutriwita' to me, yet I've read it a thousand times.

Like it or not, it is now a written language too. And in this day and age that even puts it beyond the bounds of human manipulation. Hello Spellcheck, Grammarly, Reverso etc etc.

basesix Thursday, 8 Jun 2023 at 10:34am

Totally.. written format and punctuation is merely representative of oral language tradition. Capitals represent gravitas or respect in the orator's eyes.
Our lung capacity, not our comprehension ability, has dictated full-stops and commas. To deny this is being obtuse for its own sake.
(Same with melody. A melody, like a sentence, is the length of a breath. Which is why non-blown instruments can grab our attention with their relentless feel, like an Irish reel played on violin..)
I do get that grammar can be a problem, if there are only words left from a language, and little evidence of the grammar structures used. I had that problem with Gotisch a few years ago, the only grammar remnants of the language used Greek grammar.

truebluebasher Friday, 9 Jun 2023 at 12:04am

Qld has lost it's voice & Pissed off Oz Again (Oops! Sorry...Polls)
18 April [Yes] 41% [No] 46%
14 May [Yes] 49% [No] 51%
29 May [Yes] 39% [No] 46%

Voice needs to increase Qld Vote...
tbb's family & friends are racist! Huh! Not proud to say it...but, most Qldurrz are...it's seen as normal.
No shortage of Folk tell ya to shut about Aborigines or to remove associated artifacts in own house!
Can't think of one Qldurr that will Vote [Yes] (No matter how ya word it...as said...they won't have it!)
Welcome to try & persuade a Qldurr to Vote [Yes] but tbb wouldn't recommend ya do that...just coz!

Also said if tbb gets Albo's ROBO VOTE Letter...(That's another [No] by default & for ALP thereafter!)
AEC Direct ROBO Voting will only ignite a Qldurrz / Migration protest vote against AEC / Govt.
Qld's Massive Interstate Covid Sea Change Migration won't be swayed either way.
Qld Youth that can't afford to steal a car to sleep in, they won't bother Albo about Voting or Housing.

Pretty much Leaves Voice Choir motioning Yes to NDS & dumbfounding Migrants to smile & Nod...Yes!
On the last page [51] tbb again raised the brazen AEC / Natcab 200k Poll Rort 2022.
tbb warned that AEC would milk another Rort (Coz not one Voter gave a fuck about 1/4 m vote Rort!)

After seeing & feeling it in me bones that Qldurr'z fading Voice is outta tune. Game Over!
At that point tbb saw the need to revisit AEC / Albo's Migrant Rort Kicker...will it be enough!

Sure, wot tbb shared sounded corrupt & not backing down from that.
Here & now ABS/AEC will share just that...
Qld NDS 900,000 Majority (Disabled) Non Voters will be Auto Enrolled & likely 3rd Party Key Pad Vote!
Qld (2016-21) #1 NZ Migration 200,000 or 25% of Oz Kiwis
Qld > Gold Coast / Sunshine Coast / Ipswich are Cat 2 Migrant Regions = #1 Australian Migrant Centres.
Qld #1 Migration 14% or 15,000 / Quarter (Previously 25,000 New Citizens/yr > Dec 2022 (Open)
Meaning 5 SEQ Electorates are currently ramping 10% Voice Enrolment Boosts

Citizenship Ceremony > Enrolment Stats...3 monthly Cycle
2016-19 > AEC stuffed Toy in Oz Show Swag > 3 mths 85-96% > 6 mths 88-97%
2020-22 1st mandated Oz Day Only > fell flat with Covid > 3 mths 58-90% > 6mths 69-95%
See Next...Crew will recall Scomo spat the dummy on "Invasion Day / Migrant Care Cards / NZ Crims."

12 Jan 2019 PM Morrison Mandates Oz Day Citizenship Only (12 mths Medicare / Enrolment Delays) FU.
28 Oct 2021 PM Morrison Mandates "Extra" Aboriginal Voting [I.D] Prevent them Voting in Swing Seats.
{Important} NT Swing seat Electorate of Lingiari rubber stamps [ Xmas Island Detention Centre]

21 May 2022 Natcab (Both Parties) Mass Orchestrated 200,000 Lockout Election Rort (Cough!)

Ok! New Govt > Electoral Acts swiftly switch to customize then further fine tune swingin' Voice Voters!

16 Dec 2022 PM Albo Repeals Oz Day Citizenship Ceremonies > Councils (Flexi) AEC Enrolment.
17 Feb 2023 PM Albo revives Federal Direct Enrolment & Update Program (Medicare/Citizenship Crt.)
21 April 2023 PM Albo Fast tracks 350,000 NZ Citizens to Vote / Benefits

Does the crew really wanna see Albo's Qld Migrant Rort playing out...don't think ya do!
15 July 2023 Qld Fadden [L] Bagman MP Stuart ROBO Robert (By-Election)

#1 Fastest growing Oz electorate + #1 Migrant Hot Spot = (Current) 9.7% AEC Enrolment ramp
Fadden electorate is in New Zealand (Joke) #1 Fastest Growing NZ Electorate in Oz...

AEC : [ New Citizens ] Enrol for the 1st Time by [ Clicking ] { Enrol to Vote }
Check Albo's new beaut Direct Enrolment...Ink is not Dry on his Signature {Citizenship Certificates}
No longer Wait a year to share yer Voice...sing loud'n'proud anytime ya see fit...Yes! Just nod [Yes]

Wotz New : New Aussies 22 May-15 July 2023 can try our new [P] Enrolment...
Can Show Oz Cert dated 7 days after Polling Day...Technically an unofficial Greenhorn Aussie...Shh!
https://www.aec.gov.au/news/new-citizens.htm

Note : AEC don't care for 50,000 'Interstate' Qld Migration Re:Enrolment...just them easy targets Thanx!
You know...the ones that follow the prompts...sign here...tick [Yes] that ya voted...Good Lad!

Record Rorts Recap...
Scomo massively Rorted 150,000 votes/year by mandating 1 year Enrollment delays for Migrants!
Scomo massively Rorted 450,000 votes by mandating extra [I.D] to disadvantage Aboriginal Voters
AEC / Natcab massively Rorted 200,000 Peak Covid Test Lockout to hose down Floody [+] Poll Booths
Albo massively Rorts a healthy % of 900,000 Disabled Qldurrz that won't know if they voted or not.
Albo massively Rorts 200,000 votes with 24/7 Migrant Ceremonies + Any Aboriginal Medicare [I.D.]
Albo massively Rorts 200,000 votes by Mandating Lazy Youth / Migrant enrolment for #1 Swing State/s.
Albo massively Rorts 350,000 votes by fast forwarding enrollment for #1 Swing State/s.

Choose any of the above Mass Vote Rorts to Headline #1 Proudest Voting Nation's Referendum.
(Wiki Polls) Election > June 2023
PM Albo : 61% > 51% (vs) Dutto 17% > 33%
Satisfied : Albo 62% > 42% (vs) Dutto 28% > (37%) v 30%
Not Satisfied : Albo 18% > 37% (vs) Dutto 46% > 42%
Election Govt 32.58% > Now 34%...
Dutto is diggin' in & Albo is slippin'...game enough to Rort Votes in rival Dutto's Qld [No] base!
Dirty Politics are alive & well.

Proud Oz non voter is working alone & darn hard to pretend yer Democracy is still hard at Work. Shh!
Green Ant Bully: "No worries tbb ...Pretty sure Anthony will be using his Mr Squiggle Tally board!"

indo-dreaming Friday, 9 Jun 2023 at 8:33am

Jelly Flater wrote:
- today the qld gov officially changed the name of ‘fraser island’ back to its original traditional name ;)

‘…the move corrects a historic wrong for the butchulla people, who live by three key lores: what is good for the land must come first ; if you have plenty you must share ; and do not touch or take anything that does not belong to you’.

To the original inhabitants this island only ever had one name.

K’gari.

Use to live and work there still have friends there with business, going to be interesting to see if people in general and business there actually embrace the name change, where i worked was Fraser Island Beach Houses, and my good friends have Fraser Island Taxi service (4WD) and other accommodation business with Fraser island in the business name

Going to be a pain in the arse for their business and others like this with the name to change things, business name, car decals, signage, website including URL that would affect ranking, promo stuff, advertising. (and it should be noted they already got smashed dollar wise by Covid)

Obviously they are changing the name now for political reasons, if they change the name after the referendum when expect voice gets up* there would be a possible backlash politically and blame it on the voice.

*I think the voice will get up because people are being mislead by widespread advertising mixing constitutional recognition with the voice which guilt trips people into voting Yes, and i doubt they are going to make it a two part question which it should be, because that would mean many would vote no to the voice and yes to constitutional recognition, instead of just going a straight yes.

Also i dont see enough argument from the the No campaign focusing on the fact that the constitution should be free from any mention of race, (and remove any where there is) which is the most simple and powerful point they have, because its pretty much impossible to argue with.

basesix Friday, 9 Jun 2023 at 9:18am

Just blurting this, because I don’t think conversations directed at Indo address his main hesitations with the voice being constitutionalised.

In this one instance zen/Indo/et al, I am happy to be ‘racist’.

If I lived in NZ, I suspect I would be proud of the Maori heritage (IB’s observations notwithstanding). It is noteworthy that Maoris (arguably, colonisers themselves) have lived in Aotearoa for 1% as long as Indigenous Australians have lived here. Native Americans half as long. First-peoples all over have established well-deserved, hard-won rights-to-be-heard. None deserve that more than Aboriginal Australians.

The (l)iberal conservatives I spoke to Indo of the other week (who are voting yes, purely for our international reputation) say “why not Chinese Australians, why not Italians, why not Congolese? Where does it stop, this race talk.. we are not born different, and any horrible symptoms of past trauma can be dealt with - poverty, abuse, education - through legislation that deals with these issues, while being sympathetic to cultural needs.. you don’t have to enshrine race distinction to do this”. (interestingly, new-Australians will be largely voting 'no').

Not treating any race as ‘different from birth’ makes complete sense and I can see it as an aspirational notion. 1967, egalitarianism, all born equal, etc etc. But not in this case.

Where does it stop? It starts and it stops with Aboriginal Australians. Politics, fear and endless ‘what ifs’ around this is just fkn noise. Would you rather be at Jacinta’s house party on referendum day, or Thomas Mayo’s?

‘They’ (yep, I know, problematic) are OF this land… they have seen ice-ages come and go, seas rise and fall, witnessed mega-volcano events, comets re-visit, hunted megafauna in Bass Strait, seen the dingoes arrive from SE Asia. They have affected this land as much as they have evolved with it. They have ritualised war, formalised genetic diversification, and developed ecological-practices, language, dance, song, astronomy, medicine, storytelling completely independently of the rest of the world longer than any other culture. And they did it here. Where we are sitting. I think that is very cool. It is worthy of distinction. (I think Indo might too, deep down, given his wonderful post on feeling-connection-to-place).

And ‘they’ have somehow survived recent events of being slaughtered, chained up as fauna, misunderstood, disrespected and ridiculed. It is the least we can do to let them know their voice is a voice we feel privileged to hear (consistently and always), whatever they say. And when I say ‘they’ (3% of our population ffs) I am talking about hundreds of individual Aboriginal nations - they have a hell of a job ahead of them unifying among themselves.. (outspoken attention-seekers don’t help this obviously). I live on the border of 2 language groups, and they have long-running political disputes within themselves let alone with each other. But that’s not really my business.

As far as I’m concerned, the referendum should just be for Indigenous Australians and we should just go ‘yup’ to whatever they decide. But even better if we all show we are onboard. I don’t think it will repair or fix anything. I don’t even think it will change anything. Only governments, with our support can do that. I just want to show first Australians and their descendants a little respect. And proudly take this opportunity to show the world that Australians are not mean-spirited. It is not a Left viewpoint, it is a humanist one.

But if your gut says 'no', vote that way.. it's how we operate here, and it's why we're having a referendum.

andy-mac Friday, 9 Jun 2023 at 11:15am

basesix wrote:
Just blurting this, because I don’t think conversations directed at Indo address his main hesitations with the voice being constitutionalised.

In this one instance zen/Indo/et al, I am happy to be ‘racist’.

If I lived in NZ, I suspect I would be proud of the Maori heritage (IB’s observations notwithstanding). It is noteworthy that Maoris (arguably, colonisers themselves) have lived in Aotearoa for 1% as long as Indigenous Australians have lived here. Native Americans half as long. First-peoples all over have established well-deserved, hard-won rights-to-be-heard. None deserve that more than Aboriginal Australians.

The (l)iberal conservatives I spoke to Indo of the other week (who are voting yes, purely for our international reputation) say “why not Chinese Australians, why not Italians, why not Congolese? Where does it stop, this race talk.. we are not born different, and any horrible symptoms of past trauma can be dealt with - poverty, abuse, education - through legislation that deals with these issues, while being sympathetic to cultural needs.. you don’t have to enshrine race distinction to do this”. (interestingly, new-Australians will be largely voting 'no').

Not treating any race as ‘different from birth’ makes complete sense and I can see it as an aspirational notion. 1967, egalitarianism, all born equal, etc etc. But not in this case.

Where does it stop? It starts and it stops with Aboriginal Australians. Politics, fear and endless ‘what ifs’ around this is just fkn noise. Would you rather be at Jacinta’s house party on referendum day, or Thomas Mayo’s?

‘They’ (yep, I know, problematic) are OF this land… they have seen ice-ages come and go, seas rise and fall, witnessed mega-volcano events, comets re-visit, hunted megafauna in Bass Strait, seen the dingoes arrive from SE Asia. They have affected this land as much as they have evolved with it. They have ritualised war, formalised genetic diversification, and developed ecological-practices, language, dance, song, astronomy, medicine, storytelling completely independently of the rest of the world longer than any other culture. And they did it here. Where we are sitting. I think that is very cool. It is worthy of distinction. (I think Indo might too, deep down, given his wonderful post on feeling-connection-to-place).

And ‘they’ have somehow survived recent events of being slaughtered, chained up as fauna, misunderstood, disrespected and ridiculed. It is the least we can do to let them know their voice is a voice we feel privileged to hear (consistently and always), whatever they say. And when I say ‘they’ (3% of our population ffs) I am talking about hundreds of individual Aboriginal nations - they have a hell of a job ahead of them unifying among themselves.. (outspoken attention-seekers don’t help this obviously). I live on the border of 2 language groups, and they have long-running political disputes within themselves let alone with each other. But that’s not really my business.

As far as I’m concerned, the referendum should just be for Indigenous Australians and we should just go ‘yup’ to whatever they decide. But even better if we all show we are onboard. I don’t think it will repair or fix anything. I don’t even think it will change anything. Only governments, with our support can do that. I just want to show first Australians and their descendants a little respect. And proudly take this opportunity to show the world that Australians are not mean-spirited. It is not a Left viewpoint, it is a humanist one.

But if your gut says 'no', vote that way.. it's how we operate here, and it's why we're having a referendum.

Great post!

waveman Friday, 9 Jun 2023 at 11:39am

basesix wrote:
Just blurting this, because I don’t think conversations directed at Indo address his main hesitations with the voice being constitutionalised.

In this one instance zen/Indo/et al, I am happy to be ‘racist’.

If I lived in NZ, I suspect I would be proud of the Maori heritage (IB’s observations notwithstanding). It is noteworthy that Maoris (arguably, colonisers themselves) have lived in Aotearoa for 1% as long as Indigenous Australians have lived here. Native Americans half as long. First-peoples all over have established well-deserved, hard-won rights-to-be-heard. None deserve that more than Aboriginal Australians.

The (l)iberal conservatives I spoke to Indo of the other week (who are voting yes, purely for our international reputation) say “why not Chinese Australians, why not Italians, why not Congolese? Where does it stop, this race talk.. we are not born different, and any horrible symptoms of past trauma can be dealt with - poverty, abuse, education - through legislation that deals with these issues, while being sympathetic to cultural needs.. you don’t have to enshrine race distinction to do this”. (interestingly, new-Australians will be largely voting 'no').

Not treating any race as ‘different from birth’ makes complete sense and I can see it as an aspirational notion. 1967, egalitarianism, all born equal, etc etc. But not in this case.

Where does it stop? It starts and it stops with Aboriginal Australians. Politics, fear and endless ‘what ifs’ around this is just fkn noise. Would you rather be at Jacinta’s house party on referendum day, or Thomas Mayo’s?

‘They’ (yep, I know, problematic) are OF this land… they have seen ice-ages come and go, seas rise and fall, witnessed mega-volcano events, comets re-visit, hunted megafauna in Bass Strait, seen the dingoes arrive from SE Asia. They have affected this land as much as they have evolved with it. They have ritualised war, formalised genetic diversification, and developed ecological-practices, language, dance, song, astronomy, medicine, storytelling completely independently of the rest of the world longer than any other culture. And they did it here. Where we are sitting. I think that is very cool. It is worthy of distinction. (I think Indo might too, deep down, given his wonderful post on feeling-connection-to-place).

And ‘they’ have somehow survived recent events of being slaughtered, chained up as fauna, misunderstood, disrespected and ridiculed. It is the least we can do to let them know their voice is a voice we feel privileged to hear (consistently and always), whatever they say. And when I say ‘they’ (3% of our population ffs) I am talking about hundreds of individual Aboriginal nations - they have a hell of a job ahead of them unifying among themselves.. (outspoken attention-seekers don’t help this obviously). I live on the border of 2 language groups, and they have long-running political disputes within themselves let alone with each other. But that’s not really my business.

As far as I’m concerned, the referendum should just be for Indigenous Australians and we should just go ‘yup’ to whatever they decide. But even better if we all show we are onboard. I don’t think it will repair or fix anything. I don’t even think it will change anything. Only governments, with our support can do that. I just want to show first Australians and their descendants a little respect. And proudly take this opportunity to show the world that Australians are not mean-spirited. It is not a Left viewpoint, it is a humanist one.

But if your gut says 'no', vote that way.. it's how we operate here, and it's why we're having a referendum.

The gist of your argument is anyone who votes no is mean-spirited. And we should all therefore vote yes to impress the rest of the world. And you acknowledge that voting yes is unlikely to fix anything at all. Virtue signalling…

andy-mac Friday, 9 Jun 2023 at 11:40am

waveman wrote:
basesix wrote:
Just blurting this, because I don’t think conversations directed at Indo address his main hesitations with the voice being constitutionalised.

In this one instance zen/Indo/et al, I am happy to be ‘racist’.

If I lived in NZ, I suspect I would be proud of the Maori heritage (IB’s observations notwithstanding). It is noteworthy that Maoris (arguably, colonisers themselves) have lived in Aotearoa for 1% as long as Indigenous Australians have lived here. Native Americans half as long. First-peoples all over have established well-deserved, hard-won rights-to-be-heard. None deserve that more than Aboriginal Australians.

The (l)iberal conservatives I spoke to Indo of the other week (who are voting yes, purely for our international reputation) say “why not Chinese Australians, why not Italians, why not Congolese? Where does it stop, this race talk.. we are not born different, and any horrible symptoms of past trauma can be dealt with - poverty, abuse, education - through legislation that deals with these issues, while being sympathetic to cultural needs.. you don’t have to enshrine race distinction to do this”. (interestingly, new-Australians will be largely voting 'no').

Not treating any race as ‘different from birth’ makes complete sense and I can see it as an aspirational notion. 1967, egalitarianism, all born equal, etc etc. But not in this case.

Where does it stop? It starts and it stops with Aboriginal Australians. Politics, fear and endless ‘what ifs’ around this is just fkn noise. Would you rather be at Jacinta’s house party on referendum day, or Thomas Mayo’s?

‘They’ (yep, I know, problematic) are OF this land… they have seen ice-ages come and go, seas rise and fall, witnessed mega-volcano events, comets re-visit, hunted megafauna in Bass Strait, seen the dingoes arrive from SE Asia. They have affected this land as much as they have evolved with it. They have ritualised war, formalised genetic diversification, and developed ecological-practices, language, dance, song, astronomy, medicine, storytelling completely independently of the rest of the world longer than any other culture. And they did it here. Where we are sitting. I think that is very cool. It is worthy of distinction. (I think Indo might too, deep down, given his wonderful post on feeling-connection-to-place).

And ‘they’ have somehow survived recent events of being slaughtered, chained up as fauna, misunderstood, disrespected and ridiculed. It is the least we can do to let them know their voice is a voice we feel privileged to hear (consistently and always), whatever they say. And when I say ‘they’ (3% of our population ffs) I am talking about hundreds of individual Aboriginal nations - they have a hell of a job ahead of them unifying among themselves.. (outspoken attention-seekers don’t help this obviously). I live on the border of 2 language groups, and they have long-running political disputes within themselves let alone with each other. But that’s not really my business.

As far as I’m concerned, the referendum should just be for Indigenous Australians and we should just go ‘yup’ to whatever they decide. But even better if we all show we are onboard. I don’t think it will repair or fix anything. I don’t even think it will change anything. Only governments, with our support can do that. I just want to show first Australians and their descendants a little respect. And proudly take this opportunity to show the world that Australians are not mean-spirited. It is not a Left viewpoint, it is a humanist one.

But if your gut says 'no', vote that way.. it's how we operate here, and it's why we're having a referendum.

The gist of your argument is anyone who votes no is mean-spirited. And we should all therefore vote yes to impress the rest of the world. And you acknowledge that voting yes is unlikely to fix anything at all. Virtue signalling…

I didn't interpret it that way?

sameaswas Friday, 9 Jun 2023 at 12:22pm

2 weeks ago the nt govt passed legislation that miners etc etc have to ask and gain permission from fnp to explore on their land...wtf i allways assumed that was the case anyway! especially since mabo, what are these fnp ruleing elite canberra bubble doing? remember the cave blown up by rio in w.a.?
rio warned :them" and susan ley (i think thats her name) was given the task of investigateing and 2wks later stood up in parliament, only a few pollies present and ken wyat was NOT there. and in less than 2 mins said no one was told (liar liar liar ) then asked it to be enterd into hansard.
so that lie is now legally the truth!! and nothing from langton, pearson, ken wyat etc etc.
in journalism they say "follow the money" , gina and twiggy and rio et all are now in bed with the voice caball.
david williams a bilingual fnp is flying around to remote communities explaining the voice to the locals, and good on him he comes across as a sincere nice person imo. he allso is assisted by other translaters cos he does'nt know all of the dialects.
every where he's been they all say "never heard of the voice" but think it's a good idea cos no ones listening to them.
langton etc have said voice 16yrs on the table and remote communities informed...??
how in this age and40+yrs of assistance and$$$ can there be aborigines who are illiterate and can't speak english? and these arrogant canberra voice ppl don't want to know.
oh the irony and hypocracy of it all.

southernraw Friday, 9 Jun 2023 at 9:52pm

Great post above Basesix.
I think you can either approach this vote with fear of what might happen and what you might lose, or love and willingness to sacrifice, and trust that fellow humans will treat us the way they should have been treated all along..., which is what was kinda suggested in the original post for this thread.

basesix Saturday, 10 Jun 2023 at 9:49am

cheers a-m & southern! have a killer weekend #stokenotgloom

andy-mac Saturday, 10 Jun 2023 at 10:45am

Nice tune! :)

indo-dreaming Saturday, 10 Jun 2023 at 4:11pm

basesix wrote:
Just blurting this, because I don’t think conversations directed at Indo address his main hesitations with the voice being constitutionalised.

In this one instance zen/Indo/et al, I am happy to be ‘racist’.

If I lived in NZ, I suspect I would be proud of the Maori heritage (IB’s observations notwithstanding). It is noteworthy that Maoris (arguably, colonisers themselves) have lived in Aotearoa for 1% as long as Indigenous Australians have lived here. Native Americans half as long. First-peoples all over have established well-deserved, hard-won rights-to-be-heard. None deserve that more than Aboriginal Australians.

The (l)iberal conservatives I spoke to Indo of the other week (who are voting yes, purely for our international reputation) say “why not Chinese Australians, why not Italians, why not Congolese? Where does it stop, this race talk.. we are not born different, and any horrible symptoms of past trauma can be dealt with - poverty, abuse, education - through legislation that deals with these issues, while being sympathetic to cultural needs.. you don’t have to enshrine race distinction to do this”. (interestingly, new-Australians will be largely voting 'no').

Not treating any race as ‘different from birth’ makes complete sense and I can see it as an aspirational notion. 1967, egalitarianism, all born equal, etc etc. But not in this case.

Where does it stop? It starts and it stops with Aboriginal Australians. Politics, fear and endless ‘what ifs’ around this is just fkn noise. Would you rather be at Jacinta’s house party on referendum day, or Thomas Mayo’s?

‘They’ (yep, I know, problematic) are OF this land… they have seen ice-ages come and go, seas rise and fall, witnessed mega-volcano events, comets re-visit, hunted megafauna in Bass Strait, seen the dingoes arrive from SE Asia. They have affected this land as much as they have evolved with it. They have ritualised war, formalised genetic diversification, and developed ecological-practices, language, dance, song, astronomy, medicine, storytelling completely independently of the rest of the world longer than any other culture. And they did it here. Where we are sitting. I think that is very cool. It is worthy of distinction. (I think Indo might too, deep down, given his wonderful post on feeling-connection-to-place).

And ‘they’ have somehow survived recent events of being slaughtered, chained up as fauna, misunderstood, disrespected and ridiculed. It is the least we can do to let them know their voice is a voice we feel privileged to hear (consistently and always), whatever they say. And when I say ‘they’ (3% of our population ffs) I am talking about hundreds of individual Aboriginal nations - they have a hell of a job ahead of them unifying among themselves.. (outspoken attention-seekers don’t help this obviously). I live on the border of 2 language groups, and they have long-running political disputes within themselves let alone with each other. But that’s not really my business.

As far as I’m concerned, the referendum should just be for Indigenous Australians and we should just go ‘yup’ to whatever they decide. But even better if we all show we are onboard. I don’t think it will repair or fix anything. I don’t even think it will change anything. Only governments, with our support can do that. I just want to show first Australians and their descendants a little respect. And proudly take this opportunity to show the world that Australians are not mean-spirited. It is not a Left viewpoint, it is a humanist one.

But if your gut says 'no', vote that way.. it's how we operate here, and it's why we're having a referendum.

Each to their own but i dont agree i dont think there is ever any justification of treating people differently based on ethnicity, its still racism and divisive, and i dont think its a good thing for anyone especially indigenous people.

I do think there should be acknowledgement of Indigenous people in the constitution preamble, along the lines of recognising them as first Australians being here for 50,000 years but then should go on to state we are all Australians no matter ethnicity, and then all mention of race/ethnicity should removed from the constitution including the races power, in section 51(xxvi) of the constitution.

AndyM Saturday, 10 Jun 2023 at 6:30pm

Indo you really are missing the point
I expect this will fall on deaf ears but I'll have a go anyway.

Ok, the Voice is not aiming to give Indigenous people something the rest of us do not - they're not going to get something special.
What it is aiming to do is lift them up to a place closer to the rest of us.
They are disadvantaged by so many measures, and although things are getting better, it's still a national and international shame.

There are indisputable clear differences between the experiences of Indigenous and non-Indigenous people in Australia across all indicators of quality of life.
Indigenous people generally experience lower standards of health, education, employment and housing.
They are over-represented in the criminal justice system and the care and protection systems nationally compared to non-Indigenous people. For example:
• The life expectancy of Indigenous people is around 17 years lower than that of the Australian population.
• In 2006, the unemployment rate for Indigenous people was 16% compared with only 5% for the non- Indigenous population.
• In 2004–2005, 27% of Indigenous people were living in overcrowded conditions.
• Indigenous people are more likely to experience homelessness than other Australians. In 2006, the rate of homelessness for Indigenous people was three times the rate of other Australians.
• Indigenous people are more likely to experience family violence than non-Indigenous people. While it is difficult to estimate the incidence of violence in Indigenous communities, in 2005 it was reported that 18.3% of Indigenous women experienced physical or threatened abuse in the past 12 months, compared with 7% of non-Indigenous women.
• Indigenous prisoners represented 24% of the total prison population in Australia in 2007.

There are no two ways about it, something is still deeply, deeply wrong.

Indo surely at some stage you've driven through towns like Wilcannia, Burke or Halls Creek.
Or maybe through small places like Woorabinda, Yarrabah or Kalkarindgi.

Other people don't live like that.

Something is wrong, it has been for a long time and we as a nation are trying to come together, really listen to the problems and find solutions.
As a matter of fact, despite everything that's happened, it's been the Indigenous crew who've held out the olive branch.
They were rejected by Malcolm Turnbull but they're still here willing to sit at the table and talk.
It's not about giving them solid gold toilet seats, it's about lifting them up, as a people, somewhere near to the living standards most of the rest of us enjoy.
Yeah it'll be difficult, especially with the more remote communities, but it'd be inhumane and immoral not to have a proper go.

basesix Sunday, 11 Jun 2023 at 9:07am

Too true AndyM, FNPs are still holding out olive branches, what a forgiving and long-visioned race. (Obviously there are the few brokens who spit bile and divisive rhetoric, but on the anglo side, we are having to illegalise swastikas because there are plenny of anglo brokens).

It was a blow to (l)iberal conservatives, when Oz moved from integration to multiculturalism, and I can see why they now want a line in the sand. But ironically, as Oz moves forward, Aboriginals are going to get lost in the multicultural immigration mix that (l)cs seem concerned about. More and more new Australians are coming from places where race is at the foundation of their sphere (Chinese owned company, where Chinese-Malay are upper management, Malay blue-collars, and Indonesians disposable serfs) or (Indians white-collar, Filipinos blue-collar) and as those numbers explode in Oz, how will they view Aboriginals? They will certainly vote 'no' as they have come here for opportunity, and have no interest in Aboriginal history or hardship. Lets enshrine our first-nation brothers and sisters, before it's too late..

(fair play Indo-D, my only dislike is mindlessness (and meanness), and as I've said before, you not only contribute heaps to these forums, you actually listen to and interact with others. You have pretty different influences to me, I can't stand the narcissistic aspiring billionaire-class of boorish agitator provocateurs Rogan/Brand/Peterson, but you do give stuff a lot of thought. I'll vote yes, you'll vote no, and we'll make no difference together ; )

AlfredWallace Sunday, 11 Jun 2023 at 9:11am

AndyM wrote:
Indo you really are missing the point
I expect this will fall on deaf ears but I'll have a go anyway.

Ok, the Voice is not aiming to give Indigenous people something the rest of us do not - they're not going to get something special.
What it is aiming to do is lift them up to a place closer to the rest of us.
They are disadvantaged by so many measures, and although things are getting better, it's still a national and international shame.

There are indisputable clear differences between the experiences of Indigenous and non-Indigenous people in Australia across all indicators of quality of life.
Indigenous people generally experience lower standards of health, education, employment and housing.
They are over-represented in the criminal justice system and the care and protection systems nationally compared to non-Indigenous people. For example:
• The life expectancy of Indigenous people is around 17 years lower than that of the Australian population.
• In 2006, the unemployment rate for Indigenous people was 16% compared with only 5% for the non- Indigenous population.
• In 2004–2005, 27% of Indigenous people were living in overcrowded conditions.
• Indigenous people are more likely to experience homelessness than other Australians. In 2006, the rate of homelessness for Indigenous people was three times the rate of other Australians.
• Indigenous people are more likely to experience family violence than non-Indigenous people. While it is difficult to estimate the incidence of violence in Indigenous communities, in 2005 it was reported that 18.3% of Indigenous women experienced physical or threatened abuse in the past 12 months, compared with 7% of non-Indigenous women.
• Indigenous prisoners represented 24% of the total prison population in Australia in 2007.

There are no two ways about it, something is still deeply, deeply wrong.

Indo surely at some stage you've driven through towns like Wilcannia, Burke or Halls Creek.
Or maybe through small places like Woorabinda, Yarrabah or Kalkarindgi.

Other people don't live like that.

Something is wrong, it has been for a long time and we as a nation are trying to come together, really listen to the problems and find solutions.
As a matter of fact, despite everything that's happened, it's been the Indigenous crew who've held out the olive branch.
They were rejected by Malcolm Turnbull but they're still here willing to sit at the table and talk.
It's not about giving them solid gold toilet seats, it's about lifting them up, as a people, somewhere near to the living standards most of the rest of us enjoy.
Yeah it'll be difficult, especially with the more remote communities, but it'd be inhumane and immoral not to have a proper go.

AndyM. Bravo fella.

Every Australian, no matter where you are from, deserves a fair go.

Aboriginal people of Australia have NEVER had a fair go. Treated like shit in the past, present and most likely the future .

Surely, as a society, it’s about time we turn this around for good. AW.

Michael Adam Sunday, 11 Jun 2023 at 9:28am

The government is the problem NOT the solution.
The “Voice” is racist by definition.
You are being played. Again.
People with good intentions falling for one of the oldest tricks in the book.
Boycott the vote.

basesix Sunday, 11 Jun 2023 at 9:56am

nice bumper stickers mikeA - you don't sound like someone who's been influenced by mindless jargonistic slogans at all.

southernraw Sunday, 11 Jun 2023 at 10:08am

Great post above Andy M.
Lots of good discussion going on here.

AndyM Sunday, 11 Jun 2023 at 10:13am

Michael Adam, sounds like you think either the problem is gonna fix itself or there is no problem.

indo-dreaming Sunday, 11 Jun 2023 at 10:42am

AndyM wrote:
Indo you really are missing the point
I expect this will fall on deaf ears but I'll have a go anyway.

Ok, the Voice is not aiming to give Indigenous people something the rest of us do not - they're not going to get something special.
What it is aiming to do is lift them up to a place closer to the rest of us.
They are disadvantaged by so many measures, and although things are getting better, it's still a national and international shame.

There are indisputable clear differences between the experiences of Indigenous and non-Indigenous people in Australia across all indicators of quality of life.
Indigenous people generally experience lower standards of health, education, employment and housing.
They are over-represented in the criminal justice system and the care and protection systems nationally compared to non-Indigenous people. For example:
• The life expectancy of Indigenous people is around 17 years lower than that of the Australian population.
• In 2006, the unemployment rate for Indigenous people was 16% compared with only 5% for the non- Indigenous population.
• In 2004–2005, 27% of Indigenous people were living in overcrowded conditions.
• Indigenous people are more likely to experience homelessness than other Australians. In 2006, the rate of homelessness for Indigenous people was three times the rate of other Australians.
• Indigenous people are more likely to experience family violence than non-Indigenous people. While it is difficult to estimate the incidence of violence in Indigenous communities, in 2005 it was reported that 18.3% of Indigenous women experienced physical or threatened abuse in the past 12 months, compared with 7% of non-Indigenous women.
• Indigenous prisoners represented 24% of the total prison population in Australia in 2007.

There are no two ways about it, something is still deeply, deeply wrong.

Indo surely at some stage you've driven through towns like Wilcannia, Burke or Halls Creek.
Or maybe through small places like Woorabinda, Yarrabah or Kalkarindgi.

Other people don't live like that.

Something is wrong, it has been for a long time and we as a nation are trying to come together, really listen to the problems and find solutions.
As a matter of fact, despite everything that's happened, it's been the Indigenous crew who've held out the olive branch.
They were rejected by Malcolm Turnbull but they're still here willing to sit at the table and talk.
It's not about giving them solid gold toilet seats, it's about lifting them up, as a people, somewhere near to the living standards most of the rest of us enjoy.
Yeah it'll be difficult, especially with the more remote communities, but it'd be inhumane and immoral not to have a proper go.

Andy we all know these things but there is still NO reason to put race based (hence racists) policy in the constitution.

If people want to have a go at another indigenous advisory body then fine, implement it in policy, if it works no government will dispose of it, they only dispose of advisory bodies that fail.

And if that is the fear why not get Labor and LNP to come to an agreement to provide a trial period even something like 20 years with an independent review at that point accessing its success or lack of

None of these problems will ever be solved though because they are mostly influenced by two factors that are almost if not impossible to deal with or change.

Geography: The areas with real issues(remote and very remote) will never have the things needed to fix these problems, and provide the employment, education and services needed.

And any policy that aims at even encouraging people to areas with these things will always be seen in a negative light and will be called assimilation policy, or culture destroying or seen as taking indigenous people from their traditional lands.

Culture: Not just negative deep rooted traditional cultural aspects (as also seen in PNG with similar issues), but just a more recent culture of dependency on welfare etc

Even daring to mention this aspect is completely taboo, although in other areas of society its common, take football for instance, just one player gets a bit loose and its all goes back to the culture of the club.

BTW. The stats you mention are kind of misleading they are overall stats based on ethnicity, if you break them down into geography, they are very different.

City and built up area: the differences between indigenous and non indigenous are close to irrelevant, the stats are not relevant in this case.

Regional areas: The stats are pretty similar but you may see differences in some areas between indigenous and non indigenous (although some stats like income or unemployment rates you will seen differences in stats between all Australian's from City to regional areas)

Remote communities: Big difference and stats are far far worse than stated.

No voice is going to change any of these things, anyone who thinks it will is completely dreaming.

But i will give you a clue to how to go about going on a path to helping solve the issues.

An Indigenous person no matter where they live, if have been provided a decent level of education are full time employed or a business owner and have access to all the services other Australians have, in most cases will achieve to exactly the same level as other Australian's and not be part of the stats you posted.

#realtruthtelling

southernraw Sunday, 11 Jun 2023 at 10:43am

You adding hashtags to your posts now Indo?
#razzledazzle!

indo-dreaming Sunday, 11 Jun 2023 at 10:52am

indo-dreaming Sunday, 11 Jun 2023 at 10:55am

basesix wrote:
(fair play Indo-D, my only dislike is mindlessness (and meanness), and as I've said before, you not only contribute heaps to these forums, you actually listen to and interact with others. You have pretty different influences to me, I can't stand the narcissistic aspiring billionaire-class of boorish agitator provocateurs Rogan/Brand/Peterson, but you do give stuff a lot of thought. I'll vote yes, you'll vote no, and we'll make no difference together ; )

Thanks, respect that.

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The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices

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