The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Viktor Frankl would applaud you, gsco (I’m just reading his wonderful “Man’s Search For Meaning”).
@gsco
""Australian to take that first step over that first obstacle of just getting started - which is always the hardest step - with going down the journey of improving their lives for themselves and learning the harsh reality of life that in fact life is challenging and harsh for everyone and that neither the government or no one else is there to help them, hold their hand or close their gap for them - they only have themselves and their own backbone and initiative.""
Yes good post, appreciate your honesty as you have obviously worked your arse off to get where you are.
However saying the govt didn't help you in last paragraph after earlier mentioning walking into centre link, then being able to go to affordable TAFE followed by Uni was all due to govt help.
I did a very similar path to that myself although I was fortunate to never have had to live in car and had strong family support.
Someone in a similar position today as you were would I believe find it a lot more difficult to accomplish what you did, and would be put off further by unaffordability of that pathway.
i'm dealing with year 12 kids who wish to go down uni pathway but due to their socio economic position question it due to the expense and massive debt they will obtain. Uni Education should not be like this.
Anyway I will vote Yes also as again it will not affect me either way but if it can help one indigenous kid or family it will be worth it.
People do only have their own backbone and initiative but it is also good to have some help when needed.
No man is an island.
have always wanted to read that book IB.
southernraw I don't see that the question is relevant since everyone in Australia has free and equal access and opportunity to the things I did, with the only restrictions being The Voice inside their heads, and possibly the Australia we are in now making life in general harder equally for everyone:
- seeking govt financial assistance
- renting a unit and buying food from a shop
- stopping drinking and drugs
- enrolling in a TAFE course and not quitting
- enrolling in uni and not quitting
- having the discipline to study 8hrs/day 5days/wk like a job
- accepting that I would be living below the poverty line for a few years and not complaining about it
- not convincing myself that I'm a victim of the privileged white male boomer Christian oppressors
but if you'e just curious about what I look like I can direct you to my onlyfans page
ok sorry I'm being a smart arse now. I actually look a little like a certain person who may have started this thread
EDIT: 100% agree with you andy-mac, the govt or Australia did help me in that way, and of course those obstacles you describe are faced equally by everyone and are unrelated to The Voice
and: UNIVERSITY EDUCATION AND HEALTHCARE SHOULD BE FREE FOR EVERY AUSTRALIAN
@gsco
I 100% agree with your post, end of the day its up to the individual to better themselves, you cant force this on people and no voice will achieve this.
Although we do have to acknowledge you had two advantage's over some.
You had a basic to half decent education even if left school at year 11, you could read, write, and you had positive habits formed from attending school and the needed discipline to hold down a job and the advantage of either living or being able to move to where you can get a job and improve your life.
Thats why things like education, geography and habits (positive culture) are so important.
If an indigenous person was in the same situation as you with the same basic level of education from a regional area or city where jobs then 100% if they wanted to they could achieve the same, and if live in these areas they actually have slightly more access to services to provide a helping hand.*
However if they grew up not going to school because parents never ensured they did and english poor and poorly presented its going to be much harder for them or if they dont want to go where employment is, or if get a job cant hold it down because they dint have the discipline needed/formed, then yeah much harder.
On its own skin colour or ethnicity would rarely be an issue these days if have good English and presented well, in some case's it's now become an advantage as work place want to appear diverse and progressive. (i see this with my wife's experience)
* Already mentioned this in the past when i lived on the Goldie(Venice street), i lived 100 metres from an Indigenous & torres strait medical centre, they could take a tiny percentage of non indigenous people, and i was very lucky to be able to use this clinic, all free, could always get a booking, never had to wait as rarely anyone in there, and appointments not rushed at all, and even better my Doc (Jermey inglis) surfed and we would spend half the time talking surfing and before going to Indo he would give me all this free first aid stuff.
Id imagine if i was indigenous and i needed further services like an operation, i might get pushed up any waiting list, as in the interest of government to keep stats as good as possible.
Thanks for your reply GSCO.
Heading out but will pop up a quick courtesy reply.
I normally enjoy reading your writings, you seem pretty switched on with most things.
But on this one, respectfully, i feel you're way off the mark.
When you say 'everyone in Australia has free and equal access to the things i did", ...well yes, on paper and by law. Absolutely.
But culturally, it's a huge gap.
The point is, if you're an indigenous Australian, you're already up against it to start with, just by being an Indigenous Australian. I don't know exactly which part of oz you live, but where i live, i'd honestly say at least 80percent of anglo Australians view Aboriginal australians as the other, as less than them, as scumbags and they'll happily use casual racism as a form of either a joke, or in any argument or debate.
Secondly, and with that in mind, how about some real life examples. You're a young black fella that decides to travel Australia in your commodore stationwagon with your indigenous mate. How do you think these blokes are percieved pulling into rural towns. How would they go joining up to a housesitting website with a profile pic of them asking to look after someones house and dogs for 3 months while the owners are away overseas? How would they go heading to the pub on a friday night in an affluent area or even just a plain old anglo beachtown? Now extend that to older, younger, females, kids. There is a stigma that they have to carry around because of the above mentioned casual racism that exists in large parts of this country.
I don't believe for a second that you're a part of that, and maybe that's why it's hard to see that it exists.
If only it was as simple as we all have equal opportunities, and we should all just get along.
I guess the voice may not achieve much, on paper. But symbolically, it's empowering, and symbolism can be much stronger to a community of people than much else. That goes for both parties too, indigenous and non indigenous.
Lastly something else to keep in mind, is that while those equal opportunities do exist, there has been 200 years plus of trauma for these people. How willing could you expect them to be to join into a party that they've never felt welcomed at before, have been banned from for many generations, and have now developed a distrust and dislike for the hosts?
I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as just grab the opportunies that you (if you look like the author of the thread) and me had gifted to us under the umbrella and security of having a safe passage to the system as an anglo Australian.
Anyway, i liked the last part of your post.
I hope this post makes sense as it's hard to articulate exactly what i mean but i think you get the gist.
Cheers for the always respectful debate.
southernraw wrote:Thanks for your reply GSCO.
Heading out but will pop up a quick courtesy reply.
I normally enjoy reading your writings, you seem pretty switched on with most things.
But on this one, respectfully, i feel you're way off the mark.
When you say 'everyone in Australia has free and equal access to the things i did", ...well yes, on paper and by law. Absolutely.
But culturally, it's a huge gap.
The point is, if you're an indigenous Australian, you're already up against it to start with, just by being an Indigenous Australian. I don't know exactly which part of oz you live, but where i live, i'd honestly say at least 80percent of anglo Australians view Aboriginal australians as the other, as less than them, as scumbags and they'll happily use casual racism as a form of either a joke, or in any argument or debate.
Secondly, and with that in mind, how about some real life examples. You're a young black fella that decides to travel Australia in your commodore stationwagon with your indigenous mate. How do you think these blokes are percieved pulling into rural towns. How would they go joining up to a housesitting website with a profile pic of them asking to look after someones house and dogs for 3 months while the owners are away overseas? How would they go heading to the pub on a friday night in an affluent area or even just a plain old anglo beachtown? Now extend that to older, younger, females, kids. There is a stigma that they have to carry around because of the above mentioned casual racism that exists in large parts of this country.
I don't believe for a second that you're a part of that, and maybe that's why it's hard to see that it exists.
If only it was as simple as we all have equal opportunities, and we should all just get along.
I guess the voice may not achieve much, on paper. But symbolically, it's empowering, and symbolism can be much stronger to a community of people than much else. That goes for both parties too, indigenous and non indigenous.
Lastly something else to keep in mind, is that while those equal opportunities do exist, there has been 200 years plus of trauma for these people. How willing could you expect them to be to join into a party that they've never felt welcomed at before, have been banned from for many generations, and have now developed a distrust and dislike for the hosts?
I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as just grab the opportunies that you (if you look like the author of the thread) and me had gifted to us under the umbrella and security of having a safe passage to the system as an anglo Australian.
Anyway, i liked the last part of your post.
I hope this post makes sense as it's hard to articulate exactly what i mean but i think you get the gist.
Cheers for the always respectful debate.
That was an excellent read and summary.
Cheers.
Recent studies also show that intergenerational trauma could have an impact. If one particular group has been through trauma, it would be indigenous Australians. I concur for many it is not just as easy as getting an act together and having a go to get a go when you are dealing with this.
https://psychcentral.com/health/genetic-trauma#looking-ahead
AndyM wrote:"this proposed amendment will entrench racial privilege in the Constitution."
Please explain.
“It would give indigenous Australians a second method of influencing public policy that goes beyond the benefits of representative democracy that are already enjoyed by all citizens regardless of race.”
https://ruleoflawaustralia.com.au/commentary/the-tragedy-is-indigenous-v...
southernraw wrote:Thanks for your reply GSCO.
Heading out but will pop up a quick courtesy reply.
I normally enjoy reading your writings, you seem pretty switched on with most things.
But on this one, respectfully, i feel you're way off the mark.
When you say 'everyone in Australia has free and equal access to the things i did", ...well yes, on paper and by law. Absolutely.
But culturally, it's a huge gap.
The point is, if you're an indigenous Australian, you're already up against it to start with, just by being an Indigenous Australian. I don't know exactly which part of oz you live, but where i live, i'd honestly say at least 80percent of anglo Australians view Aboriginal australians as the other, as less than them, as scumbags and they'll happily use casual racism as a form of either a joke, or in any argument or debate.
Secondly, and with that in mind, how about some real life examples. You're a young black fella that decides to travel Australia in your commodore stationwagon with your indigenous mate. How do you think these blokes are percieved pulling into rural towns. How would they go joining up to a housesitting website with a profile pic of them asking to look after someones house and dogs for 3 months while the owners are away overseas? How would they go heading to the pub on a friday night in an affluent area or even just a plain old anglo beachtown? Now extend that to older, younger, females, kids. There is a stigma that they have to carry around because of the above mentioned casual racism that exists in large parts of this country.
I don't believe for a second that you're a part of that, and maybe that's why it's hard to see that it exists.
If only it was as simple as we all have equal opportunities, and we should all just get along.
I guess the voice may not achieve much, on paper. But symbolically, it's empowering, and symbolism can be much stronger to a community of people than much else. That goes for both parties too, indigenous and non indigenous.
Lastly something else to keep in mind, is that while those equal opportunities do exist, there has been 200 years plus of trauma for these people. How willing could you expect them to be to join into a party that they've never felt welcomed at before, have been banned from for many generations, and have now developed a distrust and dislike for the hosts?
I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as just grab the opportunies that you (if you look like the author of the thread) and me had gifted to us under the umbrella and security of having a safe passage to the system as an anglo Australian.
Anyway, i liked the last part of your post.
I hope this post makes sense as it's hard to articulate exactly what i mean but i think you get the gist.
Cheers for the always respectful debate.
Absolutely southern, good illustrations.
And I agree with waveman, all voting is signaling so why not vote yes and signal the virtue of generosity? and his point that yes will give first Australians a much-needed second method of influencing public policy.
good response southernraw, very hard to dispute, a good counterargument to what I wrote.
A very nasty person would make the response of something like "is what you said just all in their heads" but I don't for a second think that and I agree with what you wrote.
My background makes it impossible to relate to the life experiences of and see things from the perspective of an Indigenous Australian, or understand the intangible barriers they are up against in our society, barriers I don’t face.
btw I really liked BD
Good post Southernraw
"It would give indigenous Australians a second method of influencing public policy that goes beyond the benefits of representative democracy that are already enjoyed by all citizens regardless of race.”
Maybe FNP should just scrap the Voice and start making large donations to the parties, employ sophisticated lobbying firms to roam the halls of Parliament "recruiting" support and enlist compliant journalists, producers and management to provide favourable media propaganda like the fossil fuel industry, the Pharmacy Guild and many others do, because we can't have secondary methods of influencing public policy beyond representative democracy here, especially for blackfullas, it would be an outrage!
Cheers GSCO and crew above.
Good to sift through thoughts and our different backgrounds and influences, as it's easy to overlook that we all have had different experiences ourselves which creates our own unique perspectives and outlooks on the issue.
Good to chat.
Enjoy your weekend folks.
indo-dreaming wrote:Your suggesting indigenous have genetic predisposition to bad health, my understanding is its often suggested but controversial and not studied enough to understand if its really a factor.
Nah its actually well understood.
Diabetes, cardiovascular, amongst other stuff.
Indo you are keep talking the same stuff that's been talked about for 50 plus years in regards to ATSI people its not the answer time to move on and actually recognize reality that the constitution reflects the original inhabitants not just us and include their advice in matters concerning them a small incremental step forward.
adam12 wrote:"It would give indigenous Australians a second method of influencing public policy that goes beyond the benefits of representative democracy that are already enjoyed by all citizens regardless of race.”
Maybe FNP should just scrap the Voice and start making large donations to the parties, employ sophisticated lobbying firms to roam the halls of Parliament "recruiting" support and enlist compliant journalists, producers and management to provide favourable media propaganda like the fossil fuel industry, the Pharmacy Guild and many others do, because we can't have secondary methods of influencing public policy beyond representative democracy here, especially for blackfullas, it would be an outrage!
For me, this is one of the best comments here for ages. Who or what is the real “Voice” to Parliament , that already exists, that we aren’t getting our knickers in a knot about?
I focus][quote=indo-dreaming wrote:Indo you are keep talking the same stuff that's been talked about for 50 plus years in regards to ATSI people its not the answer time to move on and actually recognize reality that the constitution reflects the original inhabitants not just us and include their advice in matters concerning them a small incremental step forward.
If you mean the same stuff as in education, employment and cultural change, then yes because without these thing's no matter your view nothing will ever change, its just not possible
It does my head in how people like you who aren't stupid, can be so ignorant or maybe just so brain washed by ideology that they throw all common sense and reason out the window. (the gender/trans issue/debate is another example of this)
I mean seriously what magic solutions do you think a voice is going to come up with?
Aliens coming down from far away to sprinkle magic dust over everything?
Again ive said the constitution should acknowledge indigenous people in the preamble, but from that point onwards should be completely free of ethnicity and see and treat all people as Australians only no matter their ethnic backgrounds, skin colour, or if there family arrived here last year of 50,000 years ago, this is not only the right thing morally but also has great symbolistic value of being one.
While adding further ethnic based policy further cementing and us and them mentality is a form of segregation.
By all means have another shot at another federal advisory body but just leave it out of the constitution.
And no sorry the idea that indigenous people and communities are not consulted is hogwash Warren Mundine has spoken in depth about how governments work with and already advised by a whole host of Indigenous bodies.
indo-dreaming][quote=I focus wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Indo you are keep talking the same stuff that's been talked about for 50 plus years in regards to ATSI people its not the answer time to move on and actually recognize reality that the constitution reflects the original inhabitants not just us and include their advice in matters concerning them a small incremental step forward.
I mean seriously what magic solutions do you think a voice is going to come up with?
Aliens coming down from far away to sprinkle magic dust over everything?
True Indo. A type of alien did come down 200 odd years ago and sprinkled magic dust everywhere.
Unfortunately that didn't work out too well for our indigenous brothers and sisters.
Maybe a different type of 'magic dust' might be more effective?
“ I mean seriously what magic solutions do you think a voice is going to come up with?”
Too hard, won’t work, won’t try eh?
Loser mentality.
The counter argument to "the Voice is racist".
"Equality does not mean we are all treated the same. It has always been true that marginalised groups sometimes require unique representation
Creating an Indigenous voice to parliament is not racist or inequitable. On the contrary, it presents an opportunity for Australia to address and overcome racism and discrimination.
The argument that a voice would create inequality by inserting race into the constitution is not only disingenuous – it is also plain wrong. It is wrong because the Australian constitution already includes several provisions about race, one of which gives parliament the power to make laws for “the people of any race for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws”. This is often referred to as the race power, and it makes Australia the only country that has empowered its federal parliament to make laws based on race.
Aside from being incorrect, claims that a voice would create racial inequality are also disingenuous because they are not made in order to support greater equality in Australia. Denying Indigenous Australians a voice in decisions that affect them will only serve to maintain racial inequality and continue the marginalisation and disempowerment of First Nations people.
Equality does not mean that everyone should be treated exactly the same. It has always been true that in order to be “free and equal in dignity and rights”, marginalised or disadvantaged groups sometimes require unique representation or assistance. This is particularly so with indigenous peoples, which is why the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples bestows unique rights to the original inhabitants of countries that have been colonised.
The rights of Indigenous people – which Australia has long acknowledged in both domestic and international law – include the right to self-determination, to create representative structures and to self-govern, to participate in decisions that affect them, and to be free from any form of discrimination. The voice proposal is not just an outcome in itself but a tool for realising these rights and one that we all hope will help create better outcomes for First Nations people.
The policies and approaches of successive Australian governments towards Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have too often been developed and applied without the input and agreement of First Nations. This has resulted in significant structural and systemic harm. Mechanisms to promote independence, representation, empowerment, accountability and transparency are a critical step towards addressing this harm.
There is clear international guidance that establishing representative structures to ensure that Indigenous people are able to participate in decisions that affect them is not only consistent with international law and non-discriminatory, but is in fact necessary to prevent and overcome racism and discrimination.
The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination made this clear in its concluding observations on Australia in 2017, urging constitutional recognition of First Nations people and the establishment “of a meaningful mechanism that enables their effective political participation”.
It is interesting that some opponents of the voice imply that the presence of “race” in the constitution is itself racist. I strongly disagree, and find this argument insincere.
Meaningful conversations about race in Australia need to acknowledge that racism has been a major feature in shaping our society, its structures, laws and institutions. Entrenched racism has subjected Indigenous Australians to systemic discrimination for generations, leading to significant disadvantages in areas such as health, education, employment and justice. The voice could play a role in addressing and ameliorating historical and ongoing discrimination against First Nations people.
The referendum provides an opportunity to recognise and acknowledge the unique rights of Indigenous Australians as the first people of this continent – the oldest continuous culture in the world. This would be a powerful act of national unity.
By giving First Nations people a say in the decisions that affect their lives, the voice could help to ensure that their perspectives, priorities and aspirations are taken into account in the development of policies and laws. This could help to address the historical and ongoing injustices that Indigenous Australians have faced, and is a step towards achieving racial equality to help us heal and move forward as a community."
by Chin Tan, Race Discrimination Commissioner at the Australian Human Rights Commission.
https://itstopswithme.humanrights.gov.au/news/voice-parliament-will-lead...
The Voice is not about race or ethnicity, it is about indigeneity, big difference.
I'll say that again, in caps.
THE VOICE IS NOT ABOUT RACE OR ETHNICITY, IT IS ABOUT INDIGENEITY, BIG DIFFERENCE.
Okay then, lets make this thread discussion go in a positive direction and throw out some possible solution's that the voice might suggest, that dont include or based on the five important points that you guys seem to think aren't important.
-Education
-Employment
- Access to services like health care etc
-And break the negative cultural cycles.
And dont be lazy and be a cop out and say its not my place to say, it up to them to decided etc
This is a forum its a place for discussion, your not enforcing your views on indigenous people.
BTW. the idea that only Indigenous people should have a say in problems that affect Indigenous people to me is as weird as saying only non indigenous people should have a say in non indigenous problems.
Okay re reading i only put four points, i was going to put location as a factor too.
Still flogging the relocation of mobs offcountry after all these years @info?
So you’re advocating a return to a practice used by every land thief and murdering spiv since the first fleet then …. Not going to happen, ever again.
GuySmiley wrote:Still flogging the relocation of mobs offcountry after all these years @info?
So you’re advocating a return to a practice used by every land thief and murdering spiv since the first fleet then …. Not going to happen, ever again.
Actually forced relocation has never been an angle ive taken, ive even avoided suggesting relocation, but 100% its very hard to see how you can fix the key issues without encouraging people to where these top three important aspects can be fulfilled.
Thats why ive always said nothing will ever change, because i cant see how the three important key aspects will ever be solved.
The other problem is most of the land these indigenous people live on is not privately owned and is often locked up by land council's because there was never any individual traditional ownership, so while almost half of Australia is controlled by indigenous interest, the benefit for Indigenous individuals is close to zero.
Say if it was Indonesia and land had traditionally been owned by individuals and then taken, it could then at-least be reverted back to individual families who then can benefit from it in some way and have more of a chance of breaking the cycle of intergenerational poverty. (a very real thing)
GuySmiley wrote:Still flogging the relocation of mobs offcountry after all these years @info?
So you’re advocating a return to a practice used by every land thief and murdering spiv since the first fleet then …. Not going to happen, ever again.
Remember, this is the same guy that said the closer to their culture they are the more violent they are.
southernraw wrote:Thanks for your reply GSCO.
Heading out but will pop up a quick courtesy reply.
I normally enjoy reading your writings, you seem pretty switched on with most things.
But on this one, respectfully, i feel you're way off the mark.
When you say 'everyone in Australia has free and equal access to the things i did", ...well yes, on paper and by law. Absolutely.
But culturally, it's a huge gap.
The point is, if you're an indigenous Australian, you're already up against it to start with, just by being an Indigenous Australian. I don't know exactly which part of oz you live, but where i live, i'd honestly say at least 80percent of anglo Australians view Aboriginal australians as the other, as less than them, as scumbags and they'll happily use casual racism as a form of either a joke, or in any argument or debate.
Secondly, and with that in mind, how about some real life examples. You're a young black fella that decides to travel Australia in your commodore stationwagon with your indigenous mate. How do you think these blokes are percieved pulling into rural towns. How would they go joining up to a housesitting website with a profile pic of them asking to look after someones house and dogs for 3 months while the owners are away overseas? How would they go heading to the pub on a friday night in an affluent area or even just a plain old anglo beachtown? Now extend that to older, younger, females, kids. There is a stigma that they have to carry around because of the above mentioned casual racism that exists in large parts of this country.
I don't believe for a second that you're a part of that, and maybe that's why it's hard to see that it exists.
If only it was as simple as we all have equal opportunities, and we should all just get along.
I guess the voice may not achieve much, on paper. But symbolically, it's empowering, and symbolism can be much stronger to a community of people than much else. That goes for both parties too, indigenous and non indigenous.
Lastly something else to keep in mind, is that while those equal opportunities do exist, there has been 200 years plus of trauma for these people. How willing could you expect them to be to join into a party that they've never felt welcomed at before, have been banned from for many generations, and have now developed a distrust and dislike for the hosts?
I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as just grab the opportunies that you (if you look like the author of the thread) and me had gifted to us under the umbrella and security of having a safe passage to the system as an anglo Australian.
Anyway, i liked the last part of your post.
I hope this post makes sense as it's hard to articulate exactly what i mean but i think you get the gist.
Cheers for the always respectful debate.
Gist of your post is you think aboriginal disadvantage exists because white Australian people are racist; large swathes of today’s population according to you. This is of course a smear, no proof.
Here you are generalising about seemingly millions of white Australian people, and you’re accusing them of being racist? Do you see your own hypocrisy?
I guess if I were you right now I’d claim to be highly insulted and sugggest you leave the thread. Remember that? Lol
#(sigh..)
Yes waveman.
That's my suggestion based on what i see around me, everyday.
If this offends you, i'd suggest you're probably one who's part of the problem.
I can't unhear or unsee what the majority of anglo australians around me/the area i live are saying.
Take it as you will, it's not an opiinion though. It's fact.
And welcome back blowin.
AndyM wrote:GuySmiley wrote:Still flogging the relocation of mobs offcountry after all these years @info?
So you’re advocating a return to a practice used by every land thief and murdering spiv since the first fleet then …. Not going to happen, ever again.
Remember, this is the same guy that said the closer to their culture they are the more violent they are.
You seem to have a habit of twisting my words, I never said that at all.
I dont remember my exact words, but the point of the discussion around this aspect was that there is cultural roots to many issues seen in indigenous communities, in particular around violence and how women are often treated by some men. (there has even been books written about this)
And we can also see this effect in PNG where very similar issues are seen at similar rates but where they dont have the same aspect of colonialism in the way we have or intergenerational trauma to hide behind and avoid real truth telling..
The point was all cultures have positive and negative elements and its no surprise where culture is still strong and practiced that the negative aspects are also strong, i mean the mentality of payback is still very real today and hard to argue doesn't play a part as a driver of violence.
But yeah many people like yourself dont have the maturity needed to discuss these aspects and also find these aspects very confronting because they have a romantic idea of indigenous culture being pure and perfect even magical,
And yes 100% there is positive aspects to indigenous culture, but there is also negative aspects, this is true for all cultures.
Anyway honestly this is an area i try to avoid, not because im afraid to discuss it but because the conversation easily gets heated and goes off the rails, and its one that attracts the resident trolls.
southernraw wrote:Thanks for your reply GSCO.
Heading out but will pop up a quick courtesy reply.
I normally enjoy reading your writings, you seem pretty switched on with most things.
But on this one, respectfully, i feel you're way off the mark.
When you say 'everyone in Australia has free and equal access to the things i did", ...well yes, on paper and by law. Absolutely.
But culturally, it's a huge gap.
The point is, if you're an indigenous Australian, you're already up against it to start with, just by being an Indigenous Australian. I don't know exactly which part of oz you live, but where i live, i'd honestly say at least 80percent of anglo Australians view Aboriginal australians as the other, as less than them, as scumbags and they'll happily use casual racism as a form of either a joke, or in any argument or debate.
Secondly, and with that in mind, how about some real life examples. You're a young black fella that decides to travel Australia in your commodore stationwagon with your indigenous mate. How do you think these blokes are percieved pulling into rural towns. How would they go joining up to a housesitting website with a profile pic of them asking to look after someones house and dogs for 3 months while the owners are away overseas? How would they go heading to the pub on a friday night in an affluent area or even just a plain old anglo beachtown? Now extend that to older, younger, females, kids. There is a stigma that they have to carry around because of the above mentioned casual racism that exists in large parts of this country.
I don't believe for a second that you're a part of that, and maybe that's why it's hard to see that it exists.
If only it was as simple as we all have equal opportunities, and we should all just get along.
I guess the voice may not achieve much, on paper. But symbolically, it's empowering, and symbolism can be much stronger to a community of people than much else. That goes for both parties too, indigenous and non indigenous.
Lastly something else to keep in mind, is that while those equal opportunities do exist, there has been 200 years plus of trauma for these people. How willing could you expect them to be to join into a party that they've never felt welcomed at before, have been banned from for many generations, and have now developed a distrust and dislike for the hosts?
I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as just grab the opportunies that you (if you look like the author of the thread) and me had gifted to us under the umbrella and security of having a safe passage to the system as an anglo Australian.
Anyway, i liked the last part of your post.
I hope this post makes sense as it's hard to articulate exactly what i mean but i think you get the gist.
Cheers for the always respectful debate.
My 2 cents worth on this post.
Theres a lot in that post, some i actually agree with to an extent some i dont agree with at all.
But i like the house sitting thing.
Putting two young guys in that picture is pretty silly though, lets be real two young guys of any ethnicity are not going to get the job, closest you would come to letting two young guys house sit your place is maybe some young nerdy/geeking gay couple.
Lets throw out a more realistic scenario, lets use a whole host of public know indigenous people but pretend that we dont know who they are, so pretend they aren't well known, but just everyday random indigenous people on a house sitting website.
Do you think these indigenous people would be at a disadvantage on a house sitting website???
Lidia Thorpe, Stan Grant, Warren Mundine, Earnie Dingo, Linda Burney, Jessica Mauboy, Ash Bartey
Add more if you like?
They wouldn't be in my eyes, as scary as it is if i didn't know who Lidia Thorpe was and how much of a nutter she is id even go yeah she looks fine, a mature middle aged women id let her look after my house, her ethnic background wouldn't be of great concern to me and if i didn't know id probably say she was of Greek or Lebanese ethnicity or something anyway.
That said i think we need to be honest here i do think very dark skinned people be it Indigenous, Papuan, African or Pacific Islander would be at a disadvantage somewhat especially if single, if a couple especially mixed race couple or with kids i think that would change many peoples perception though.
Why would many see these people with darker skin differently?,
I think its hard to argue its not a form of racism, i think its because many associate these people with social economic disadvantage or even communities that may see higher levels of violence or at least a perception of this, just the build of say many Pacific island men for example means you see them as tough guys ready to rumble.
So yeah i agree there is social disadvantage aspect for some indigenous people and id hate to admit it but i think this does come down to skin colour and facial features, and it also extends out into how they present themselves and english ability and accent.
So yeah there is an aspect of truth in your post, but when you say
"The point is, if you're an indigenous Australian, you're already up against it to start with, just by being an Indigenous Australian"
There is really only truth in it for dark skinned indigenous people, if your some light skinned or even brown skinned think Lidia Thorpe, its not the same.
And this is the problem when Indigenous people of all background's and geographic communities etc are lumped in together and you have people like Lidia claiming she has been oppressed all her life, but even her father comes out and says she is full of it and has never been oppressed and was a spoilt princess growing up. (really no surprise with how she acts either)
And it should also be noted all people on a house sitting website are going to be judged on looks and people in general are at least until you get to know them, so if your white but look like you are rough or a bogan, stoner, meth head, feral, etc your also going to get passed over on a house sitting website.
BTW. I had to giggle at the clever use of the commodore in painting a good visual wanted, anyone with a commodore wagon still is either going to be a hotted up one think bogan ville or a piece of crap think paint fadding, falling apart etc , two guys turning up in most places these days, wouldn't be great even if white especially again if look like bogans or rough or stonners etc .
You can also easily repaint this picture though, two young dark indigenous guys turning up in a fairly modern 4WD with company decals in tradie gear or high viss, and the perception and outlook change's greatly.
Indo, when in a hole, stop digging!
Indo you keep giving the impression that the darker the skin, the less you like them.
And you wonder why I called you Eugenics Dreaming a while back.
batfink wrote:Indo, when in a hole, stop digging!
Come on mate, you are better than that (trolling)
How about having a shot at the question i asked earlier today, nobody else has been game to have a go, from memory you can think for yourself a little.
AndyM wrote:Indo you keep giving the impression that the darker the skin, the less you like them.
And you wonder why I called you Eugenics Dreaming a while back.
Oh great here you going trying to twist things to make me look like this or that.
And continue to show your completely unable to have a mature discussion, and some how think someone married to a person of colour with mixed race kids, even helped people of colour lift themselves out of poverty and you label them Eugenics.
Mate you are an A grade fk witt
Indo, as you suggested a while ago, pointless debating with you so i'll avoid it for both our sakes, as like you said, it'll get heated and nothing will actually be learnt.
I think it's fair to say you've dominated this thread in the word count department, so maybe take some time out to read, reflect and listen and keep an open mind because i'm pretty sure everyone here by now 'gets' your opinion.
I'm sure this conversation could be alot more productive and creative without the constant derailment.
adam12 wrote:The Voice is not about race or ethnicity, it is about indigeneity, big difference.
Adam12, in a long post full of powerful truths, I’m just going to repeat this last bit.
The absolute clanger which rings the bell about whether such a clause in the constitution would ‘be racist’. It. Just. Isn’t. No matter how you say it or what you ‘think’, it just isn’t.
Indo, and others who have ‘concerns’ about The Voice, I only ask that you broaden your imagination and apply more critical thinking to the blizzard of disinformation about what will happen if The Voice gets up.
I guarantee that you, personally, will experience not a jot of difference, not the slightest inconvenience, by First Nations people being granted a constitutional right to The Voice to Parliament.
You will not be disadvantaged in any way.
I guarantee it.
@info now presents a solid argument for the Voice when considering how best to “encourage” remote mobs to live closer to “his” (self) determined criteria of service provision to improve the quality of their lives
“ ….. Actually forced relocation has never been an angle ive taken, ive even avoided suggesting relocation, but 100% its very hard to see how you can fix the key issues without encouraging people to where these top three important aspects can be fulfilled.
southernraw wrote:Indo, as you suggested a while ago, pointless debating with you so i'll avoid it for both our sakes, as like you said, it'll get heated and nothing will actually be learnt.
I think it's fair to say you've dominated this thread in the word count department, so maybe take some time out to read, reflect and listen and keep an open mind because i'm pretty sure everyone here by now 'gets' your opinion.
I'm sure this conversation could be alot more productive and creative without the constant derailment.
Each to their own, but a forum where everyone agree and shares the same idea's IMHO is kind of pointless and becomes an echo chamber.
Maybe people are here to have their own view's reconfirmed by others, but personally id rather challenge and be challenged ideally in a civil manner but we are all human.
Lets be real, you might not agree with me but ive kept on topic and put thought and effort into my post unlike some others..
Anyway id honestly really love to hear your answer on my post @ 2:15 on the voice or answer my question in regard to house sitting.
That one should be an easy one to answer.
No means no Indo!!
You already know my thoughts and opinion anyway and i've covered much of that in the past in this thread.
I do agree on the amount of effort you put in. I'll give you that much!!
Just seems its always the same ground we're going over.
I wonder if this is more of a social space for you to come to, than an actual discussion of critical thinking and reflection with the shared motive of all, who in putting all our heads together, can share ideas to see indigenous Australians thrive rather than survive.
Yeah okay im not buying it though, many of those people mentioned you would have no idea they are indigenous if you didn't know, i threw some others in there that you also would go yeah okay they do appear indigenous.
Look the whole thread is just going over the same things with slight variation's, thats just how it is and theres some people here that have an interest in actually throwing ideas and real thought's out there, some i agree with pretty much nothing on too like Adam, and then there is just people here that have zero interest in discussing anything of substance and just want to get under others skin who's view they dont agree with and on a good day might just post a link, i guess its just how it is.
Yeah i go through phases where i post a lot, like this weekend cause ive got the kids(8 & almost 3) as wife working and even while i get out and do stuff with them, there is also times where im stuck inside with them and all they want to do is watch silly youtube videos or kids shows, i mean Bluey is cool but i cant watch the same episode five times.
Most of us like to have a decent debate too, and i do kind of enjoy it when people get frustrated as know i have a point and dont have a proper come back.
Like i asked a genuine question about the voice, but nobody has touched it because there just is no answer to the problems without those key element's mentioned.
indo-dreaming wrote:Yeah okay im not buying it though, many of those people mentioned you would have no idea they are indigenous if you didn't know, i threw some others in there that you also would go yeah okay they do appear indigenous.
Look the whole thread is just going over the same things with slight variation's, thats just how it is and theres some people here that have an interest in actually throwing ideas and real thought's out there, some i agree with pretty much nothing on too like Adam, and then there is just people here that have zero interest in discussing anything of substance and just want to get under others skin who's view they dont agree with and on a good day might just post a link, i guess its just how it is.
Yeah i go through phases where i post a lot, like this weekend cause ive got the kids(8 & almost 3) as wife working and even while i get out and do stuff with them, there is also times where im stuck inside with them and all they want to do is watch silly youtube videos or kids shows, i mean Bluey is cool but i cant watch the same episode five times.
Most of us like to have a decent debate too, and i do kind of enjoy it when people get frustrated as know i have a point and dont have a proper come back.
Like i asked a genuine question about the voice, but nobody has touched it because there just is no answer to the problems without those key element's mentioned.
Bluey is great!
andy-mac wrote:Bluey is great!
X2!
Fav episode 80s one.
From what I’ve read here there are a lot of people who have nothing to do with indigenous Australians on a daily basis. If ever at all.
The thing that frustrates discussion with you Indo is your often wilful ignorance to the trauma experienced by FNP during colonisation. And the ongoing general racism of Australians. In your above post regarding house sitters you do recognise the entrenched racism in white Australians. But I’ve seen you on many occasions dismiss this fact and blame the poor social outcomes of people living under these oppressive conditions as a result of their own poor culture.
In this very thread even though you oppose the voice, I m not sure if you’ve presented a solid sound argument based on facts. And don’t get me wrong. I don’t have the answers or enough information on the voice to provide a sound argument for. But I do have close daily interactions with an indigenous family who have experienced great trauma and have verbally expressed to me that they experience racism even in the street where they live. To them the society in which they live feels racist against them. They distrust institutions. The Voice, Idon’t know, but it’s probably just as important for multicultural Australians as it is for Indigenous Australians.
My wife recently did the Gibb River track. We’ve been on social media and one of the camp sites on a station was closed. It took one post hypothesising that it was due to negotiations with an indigenous group and the racist anti voice comments started thick and fast. Generally Australians, especially older Australians are gentrified racists. They’re fragile.
indo-dreaming wrote:Fav episode 80s one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN82eLewKTI
It's a ripper.
Camping and State of Origin one for me.
Fair enough Indo. I don't have kids.
I think the point of view i take on this thread is that in time it will be added to the historical documentation of this particular time in history, a documentation of where the average joe, everyday Australian surfer of a certain age and demographic stood on this issue, and how impassioned they were at the time.
I personally feel that having strongish views as i have is not a good way to make friends, here, or in the real world, however the issue is too strong in my mind to not at least put words to a small forum on a surf website, that will probably have little relevance or influence but will be something that can be seen, when looked back on, as a shift taking place in the community towards indigenous Australians.
Great post above too soggydog. Thanks.
Dont expect anyone has a Australian subscription, love to read this article from today
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE1...
Careful Indo, their skin's pretty dark and they're possibly quite violent.
AndyM wrote:Careful Indo, their skin's pretty dark and they're possibly quite violent.
I don't usually post in this thread, despite often lurking, to see what Ol' Smooth-Brain indo's latest wildly offensive and insane take will be, but gotta say, AndyM, that gag floored me. Well played.
indo-dreaming wrote:Dont expect anyone has a Australian subscription, love to read this article from today
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/subscribe/news/1/?sourceCode=TAWEB_WRE1...
Ah 'The Australian,' the masthead for the Murdoch media company. A company known for its ethical and unbiased journalism, when they are not deliberately spreading known lies or bugging dead girl's phones.
Hiccups wrote:AndyM wrote:Careful Indo, their skin's pretty dark and they're possibly quite violent.
I don't usually post in this thread, despite often lurking, to see what Ol' Smooth-Brain indo's latest wildly offensive and insane take will be, but gotta say, AndyM, that gag floored me. Well played.
I think it's fair to say that Indo won't be renting out a room to them anytime soon.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28