Australia - you're standing in it

"did you feel that confident that ag business hire place you contacted would put money in your bank account at the rates advertised in the ads?"

Yep.
If you can't multiply the hourly rate by the hours worked and "query" any mistakes then you're a pretty sad and sorry individual.

What industries are they in Chook?

There’s pretty much zero point me adding anything these days as it’ll be undermined by bad faith and petty grudges by fuckstiks who would rather bitch than agree even if it’s a subject close to their heart.

Plus there’s a couple of out right stupid people who can’t grasp what I’m saying at all.

And an insane bloke . But that’s another story.

When people are arguing that knowingly undermining the award wage is in the interest of the “ little bloke “ then I realise that neoliberalism has saturated our culture beyond the point of return. Then when the same people start to express concern for the next generation without failing to grasp the effects of the destruction of the award system it does my head in.

Geez I hope I'm the insane bloke. Being called "insane" by that racist imbecile blowin is a badge of honour.

No bloke.

You’re one of the stupid people.

You can’t declare hard enough just how much you hate what the LNP is doing to this country but when I suggest disabling what is perhaps their main weapon for decimating the labour force you suddenly can’t defend them with anymore enthusiasm.
I used to think it was maybe contrarianism but now I know it’s just run of the mill stupidity.

Will do blowin, If you're calling me stupid, it means I get the facts right (see that blokes) and can form a logical argument.

I don't think you're really grasping the situation Vic, I think you're fixated on a sideshow.

Andy,
Australia needs foreign workers to do the shitty jobs Australians don't want to do.
Australia needs foreign workers to do the technical jobs that can't be done by enough local workers.
Australians do high and low skilled jobs all over the world, but we apply an entirely different standard to those go-getters.
People can piss and moan about foreigners taken r jerbs all they want, but that's the sideshow mate.
If you want to stop worker exploitation, cracking down on the wage thieves and shonky bosses is the answer. If we want Australians going into high paying jobs, providing the training is the key, not kicking out the immigrants.
Does anyone here seriously believe if Australia kicked out foreign labour, the problem of wage theft would suddenly be solved?
blowin and I want the same thing, but his "solutions" have serious consequences and solve sweet FA.

You are aware that you just fed us Scomo’s scripted diatribe verbatim aren’t you ?

And you’re aware why he says this stuff aren’t you ?

And you’re aware that it’s not true aren’t you ?

For instance: Why do you think that Australian companies DONT train workers ?

Admittedly I don't pay a great deal of attention to ol' scomo, but does his diatribe contain 'cracking down on the wage thieves and shonky bosses'?

Doesn't really seem like his bag to me...

It’s straight from the LNP playbook that Australia needs foreign workers for their high skill set and due to skills / labour shortages . The data reveals the lie.

Nor does construction, hospitality , IT , retail , mining , healthcare fall into the categories of the ( FAKE ) occupations that Australians won’t or can’t perform.

And yet these are the industries dominated by temporary visa holders and “ skilled “ immigrants.

The whole human importation business under the guise of benefiting greater Australia is a scam and the central pillar of the LNP’s direct attack on Australians.

Why are people who hate the LNP with a passion defending the main weapon the LNP deploys to disenfranchise Australians ?

I don't think it's the main weapon they use Blowin, I think you are over emphasising the effects.

It is unequivocally the main weapon .

I just showed data displaying that the “ skilled “ immigrant scheme pays thousands of dollars less than the general population by median . This includes cleaners and trolley pushers in the general population account so exactly how skilled are the skilled migrants ?

The “ skilled “ stream was Vic Local saying that many immigrants are here doing jobs that Australians can’t do due to their high technical ability. The data disproves this notion completely.

Will Vic Local and his ilk ponder on this fact and perhaps consider that they are parroting and LNP lie that they’ve been told a thousand times or will they ignore it as it contradicts the stance they’ve taken due to ideological reasons ? Ideological reasons which conflict with their stated aim of concern for Australians struggling to find employment and a decent wage .

I’ve got no beef if someone wants to come straight out and say that they support open borders due to some humanitarian impulse - though I could also argue against that - but it’s the continuous support of the neoliberal anti -Labour weapons whilst simultaneously claiming to oppose the outcomes of the Labour outcomes which fries my brain.

The data you referenced does not quantify its effects, it demonstrates there are effects, but does not quantify their scale. Nor does it compare to other policy effects such as the continual degradation and demonisation of the union movement and the attacks on welfare and public shaming and smearing of welfare and its recipients.

Open borders!

For fuck's sake!

Stop reading MicroBollocks, you plonker. Those tools haven't got over the fact that KRudd once said 'Big Australia'... in 2009.

Then Gillard kiboshed it.

Hold the phones!

Strike me pink!

Are we FINALLY getting to the real point that it is the fucking Liberal party and their national fucking policies for fucking decades that are the real fucking problem??

'Immigration' you say? Worked out what it is we're actually talking about?

Taking into account some factors...

Underfunding unis...dangling the carrot of full-fee paying 'international students', and precipitating it, as an easy 'solution' to the (created) financial woes...gutting TAFE...skill shortages...privatising...capitalising...creating and empowering dodgy 'industries'...labour hire...private 'training' providers... 'immigration (that isn't) agencies...smashing unions...defunding...deregulating...cutting 'bureaucracy' and tapes of many colours (oversight)...Govt approved Temp Work and a multitude of other Visa rorts...confecting, deflecting and infecting outrage at 'immigrants' (asylum seekers and real migrants)...stealing Hanson's dumb-arse racist rhetoric and saying the loud shit quietly (dogwhistlin' Dixie)...blaming the victim...punching down, down, down...

...seems like a pretty easy solution to what ails 'us'.

If you know what it is in the first fucking place.

Stop supporting them and their enablers. Hanson, Palmer et al. Kick them the fuck out. And then work from there.

They hate us.

There’s no claim the data quantifies its effects. The data reveals that the LNP and Vic Local justification for the mass importation of workers is a lie and a sham.

Now that we can confidently ignore this lie we can concentrate on discovering the truth . Namely : Why does the LNP want hundreds of thousands of unnecessary workers to be imported into Australia each year ?

Actually.....it’s MILLIONS of unnecessary workers when you consider the temporary migration scheme.

You’re not stupid , JQ . You tell me why you think the LNP would be motivated to flood Australia with labour that is not needed ? Do you think it’s due to the kindness of their hearts ?

Super Bad!

We may have to mark this down as a red letter day.

Facto and Blowin on the same page.

Almost.

Vic you seem to be in denial.

You say that "Australia needs foreign workers to do the shitty jobs Australians don't want to do".

Like what??

Even the old chestnut of farmers needing foreign workers for fruit picking has had some serious holes poked in it in the last page or so of this thread but you're ignoring that.

Fixation with something else?

"People can piss and moan about foreigners taken r jerbs all they want, but that's the sideshow mate."

As usual, you've missed the bigger picture and/or you're shifting the goalposts, I've said no such thing.

My issue is with neolib policy using these tactics to suppress wages and keep pressure on the workforce.

You keep banging on about calling out people who talk shit, well, I think you're talking shit.

Good call.

"Stop supporting them and their enablers. Kick them the fuck out. And then work from there.

They hate us."

Ex-fuckin-actly.

Those cunts hold us in complete contempt.

Of course the LNP hates us.

Unfortunately the ALP doesn’t much like us either. YOU don’t seem to much like Australians which I don’t really understand. I’m not sure why you are so wedded to the mass immigration Ponzi ?

Don’t you agree that it’s the single most impactful policy decision on Australia’s immediate environmental concerns ?

Don’t you agree that by attenuating the excess labour supply into Australia that the Capital side of the equation will be forced to train Australians, pay a decent wage to retain labour and lessen the casualisation of the workforce when forced to compete for labour ?

By this stage of the debate there’s not much point me reiterating the established truth that Australia’s population is now so multicultural and diverse that any argument for continuous mass immigration in the name of diversity is a bald faced lie . Any reference to dog whistling or race hate motivation for slowing population growth is regressive bullshit and that’s all there is to say.

.

I'm not disputing the intent or effects (at the scale at which it is undertaken) of the policy Blowin. What I am disputing is your assertion of the scale of its effects.

Facto's graphic is spot on too, but certainly not unrelated to the point you are making Blowin.

What do you think has changed in Australia since 2012 JQ ?

Answer : Continuous and unrelenting supply shock into the labour force . It actually started a few years earlier but their was a lag time until the oversupply really kicked in .

Did I say "stop reading MicroBollocks"?

Nek Minnit...

We've got a MB plagiarised word salad!

Mass immigration ponzi, anyone?

Bingo!

almost zen...

facto appearing a little triggered there

how do you propose 'the left' fund the boutique lifestyle facilities that the uni's have become facto?

I went to uni as a mature age student around 2000, and adopted the classic arts 'student for life' modus operandi, hanging around for twice the length of my degree to complete it. learnt lots, some of the best years of my life... however over that period the sheer opulence of the campus and lifestyle changed dramatically. it went from pretty self indulgent opulence to well over the top self indulgent opulence, and then only continued to steam roll on from there after I left

this was after starting af a rather high level of self indulgence around 2000, a much different higher level of self indulgence than in the spartan grungy nineties, when I was frequenting NORML gigs and hanging with mates who stated uni soon after completing school

how are you going to fund it all facto?

easy to come on here with your litany of excuses and idealistic claptrap, but BOTH sides of politics have created a monster!

And how's the MicroBollocks personalised super fund going, I wonder?

https://nucleuswealth.com/mb-fund/

I'm sure the stories about industry super in particular have been great!

What’s with the ad hominem attacks on Macrobusiness ?

You can’t compete with their qualifications and you can’t measure up to debate their opinions on most any matter . I’m not sure who you think you are but it’s quite embarrassing for yourself to try and claim any form of superiority.

What do you do for a living ? What are your skills ?

Anyway ....it’s just more evasion. I’ve plainly stated a couple of easily answered questions that you’ve tactfully decided to ignore. That speaks volumes.

I’ll repost the questions :

Don’t you agree that ( population growth ) is the single most impactful policy decision on Australia’s immediate environmental concerns ?

Don’t you agree that by attenuating the excess labour supply into Australia that the Capital side of the equation will be forced to train Australians, pay a decent wage to retain labour and lessen the casualisation of the workforce when forced to compete for labour ?

Facto, how is mass immigration not a ponzi scheme?
You might not like who delivers the term but it’s accurate.

What are you saying about yourself there, Sepp?

And can you get any more patronising about your fellow Australians?

I thought you were some kind of champion of the masses?

And the timeline??

Didn't really think that one through, did you champ?

This is the team at Macrobusiness .

Compare this to the anonymous blogger known as “Facto “who’s only candle to hold is the juvenile ( and clunky ) reworking of the name of their website .

David Llewellyn-Smith writes as Houses and Holes. David is a macroeconomic analyst and former trader. He is the founding publisher and former Global Economy Editor of The Diplomat magazine, now the Asia Pacific’s leading geo-politics and economics website. He is also the co-author of The Great Crash of 2008 with Ross Garnaut and Editor of the Second Garnaut Climate Change Review. He is the Editor-in-chief and Publisher of MacroBusiness.

Leith van Onselen writes as the Unconventional Economist. Leith has previously worked as an economist at the Australian Treasury, Victorian Treasury and Goldman Sachs. He has a strong background in economic policy and financial sector regulation. Leith holds a Bachelor of Commerce (Honours) degree from Melbourne University and a Graduate Diploma of Applied Finance and Investment from the Securities Institute of Australia (now FINSIA).. Leith can also be found on twitter: twitter.com/leithvo

Chris Becker writes as The Prince. Chris is an investment strategist with a strong background in portfolio management, asset allocation, equities analysis and trading. He was previously the investment manager for Empire Investing focusing on value in the Australian small and mid cap sector. He was also the senior financial advisor and portfolio manager for boutique financial services company, Growth Plus, in Brisbane. Chris is a professional trader with ten years of shares, commodities and options trading experience.“

What the fck ?

Did Facto immediately revert to bitching about another poster to distract from his inability to contribute anything else at all beyond unfounded and deluded opinion ?

Yes . Yes he did. It’s what he does. That’s all he does.

But we are talking about him and he has people’s attention and that is all that matters.

Well the numbers I'm looking at for immigration rates and skilled labour don't seem to have markedly changed around 2012? I do think there's a real problem when more the %50 of the population growth comes from immigration though, that really shouldn't be allowed to occur.

As for summing up all that's changed since 2012 in 2 lines? Pull the other one, a better example of gross simplification I'm yet to see.

What are you on about sypkan - why is it 'the lefts' responsibility to fund universities? And what's this nonsense about 'self indulgent opulence'?

I went in the mid - late 2000's, bar a few items we were using equipment from the 70's! The faculty buildings were also of about that vintage. I didn't exactly deep dive into the lifestyle, but it was all 2 min noodles, packed sharehouses and multiple jobs amongst me and my mates.

Andy, where's the 'mass' in 'mass immigration'? What the fuck is 'immigration'? TWVs? Student Visas? Backpackers? Asylum seekers? Permanent migrants? Indian grandmothers (as one 'good bloke' in entirely 'good faith' referred to a particular 'foreign' cohort)? Vibrant scum (same battler)?

Are we just talking about an amorphous blob of 'others'?

And while you're there, go to town on the 'ponzi' bit.

Oh, before I go, here's a pretty Aussie picture...

OK JQ .

You convince me of what’s going on in Australia.

Explain why the environment is being destroyed for residential development at an unprecedented rate.

Explain why Australians are facing water shortages despite record dam catchment and copious rainfall.

Explain why wages haven’t risen for over a decade . Why companies no longer need to train Australians. How casualisation of the workforce is possible if there is no over supply of labour .

There’s many more questions but we will start there .

Mass immigration is 2.5 million temporary visa holders with the vast majority having no intention of leaving .

Mass immigration is the doubling of the population every 35 years due to NOM.

Mass immigration is the hundreds of thousands of “ skilled” workers and their spouses and their parents ( of both sides ) when there is no skill shortage in the first place.

Mass immigration is the unmandated Big Australia Ponzi scheme that you’re trying so hard to refuse to see you fcken dolt.

Still no answers for the questions Facto ?

It’s plain to see that if you refuse to answer them it’s because :

A / You’re answers will reveal you to be clueless..

b / Your answers will be laughably incorrect.

c / Your answers will leave you liable to be pilloried at every turn.

Even more so than your tweenage dream “ Anarchy forever comrade “ comedy routine.

Blowin, I'm too tired for an essay man.

I am not saying population growth - of which immigration is the major component - doesn't play a significant role in wages growth. I am saying that you are overstating the scale of its effect.

As for the environment, again, population growth is a significant part, but so is the focus on extractive industries and the unholy relationship of the Libs (and Labor to a lesser extent) to the mining and particularly coal industries. Are you sure we've had 'copious rainfall', haven't we been in drought for a significant period?

Have you seen any data or analysis that quantifies and compares the effects of various policies and changes on wage growth? I'm not aware of any, would be interested if any one has any.

Explain yourself or back off JQ.

I said residential development not any other form of development.

Rainfall stats are there for all to see.

You’ve basically provided nothing but “ I don’t want it to be true “ for reasons I don’t understand.

Why are you personally wedded to the Big Australia program that you feel the need to defend it ? What is your basis for refuting my claims to the effect of the Big Australia program on wages if you have no prior evidence or reasoning to dispute the claim ?

Obfuscation Facto?
Anyway.

How about “mass”” -
Record numbers and highest in the developed world, and is double that of the United States and United Kingdom.

“Immigration”
Let’s go for both permanent and temporary seeing as they both have profound effects.

Yes it’s a perjorative term, I’m not a fan of high levels of population growth.

Not expecting an answer from you.

Edit: I would’ve thought that the link between unlimited population growth and the word ponzi was absolutely clear.
How about “ The underlying strategy of Ponzi demography is to privatize the profits and socialize the costs incurred from increased population growth.”

Right back at ya Blowin, you've not established the scale of the effect at all. And you are far more strident about your position than I am about mine.

Yeah sure, population growth is the main driver of residential development, and the quanta of that attributable to immigration is there for all to see in the statistics, the numbers don't lie. How ever, residential development is not the be all and end all of environmental damage.

You've basically provided nothing but "I want it to be true" for reasons I feel like I understand.

I'm not 'wedded to the Big Australia program' at all, nor am I defending it as such. I am merely stating that I believe you are overstating the significance of it. Nor am I refuting your claims as to the effects of immigration on wages, again, merely the significance of it.

It’s just dawned on me that Facto’s driving motivation is envy.

He’s envious of the blokes at Macrobusiness because people pay to read their measured and qualified opinions.

He’s jealous that they’ve got a fund to which people happily subscribe.

He’s jealous of their success.

Sad.

Blowie is Andy?

If I want bloated, shorn-of-any-context, essentially meaningless stats and figures to falsely conflate by, surely I can just go straight to MicroBollocks direct. I don't need the plagiarising proxy subscriber.

Same goes for the 'arguments', I guess.

Maybe just keep posting/pasting their shtuff anyway. Get your money's worth.

Don't get historical, get hysterical, JQ.

It's the Swolenut way!

Anyway...

Look, look over there...China!

Meanwhile...

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/revealed-radical-escalation-in-us-war-mac...

Business as usual.

Anyone else old enough to remember 'mainstream' investigative reporting? Those were the days...

So if you agree that mass immigration has a negative affect on our fragile environment and you agree that mass immigration has a negative affect on wage growth and you agree that the desire to reduce mass immigration is not built upon ( Vic Local’s ) farcical claims of white supremacists trying to create a white ethnostate then why are you not questioning the merit of mass immigration ?

Surely there needs to be a case made for a policy to demonstrate an indisputable net benefit before it is unceremoniously hoisted on a resistant electorate ?