Australia - you're standing in it

well, fitzy...give us the historical figures then that show how the price of avocados is tied to wage growth.

show wage growth in australia over the last few decades and show the price of avocados over that period.
of course this will only show correlation, there may well be other factors determining changes in avocado prices that aren't related to wage growth. but we can start with those figures.

i've got a feeling that you're going to find avocado prices have dropped over the years, despite rising wages. there has been a massive increase in supply.

Fitz, I understand that paying people correctly will push up prices, but you're talking about a 1000% increase which is utterly unrealistic.

What I'm getting at chook, is that it greatly improves the life of these workers from overseas whilst providing relatively competitively priced and quality produce for the australian public. Keeping imported fruit and veg to a minimum. It provides education for their children, improved quality of life, etc,etc. There are numerous articles about it.
Yes, $20-30 is a bit of a stretch, but surely you can see that an increase in wages for the service will have flow-on effects.
And whilst I agree that labor hire companies are the scourge of the modern work landscape, I hardly see that alot of our farmers that grow the produce are the rich that treat their workers like shit.
I don't believe there is a simple solution to this situation as there are so many variables and so many benefits to those directly and indirectly involved.

"I don't believe there is a simple solution to this situation as there are so many variables and so many benefits to those directly and indirectly involved."
But there is a very simple solution to worker exploitation and wage theft. Make it a criminal offence punishable with jail time, and enforce the laws.
Plonking a couple of shonky labour hire executives and celebrity chefs into Sale low security prison, would very much focus the minds of people considering ripping off their workers.

yeah...i see where you are coming from fitzy.
it would be good if pacific islanders were allowed in to do this work. but the government seems resistant to that, preferring the backpacker two year work/study rort system.

I agree with you removing the worker exploitation/wage theft/labor hire grubs. And the cnts that rip off in the restaurant/retail sector.
The issue I can't get my head around is solving the migrant worker coming here for fruit picking. Not all are exploited. It is actually a small minority, yes it does happen. Many operators/farmers really look after these workers and the same workers come back year after year. Yes they are paid, by Australian standards, under award wages. But to pay them award wages comes at a cost. Increased cost of those products. There would also be a flood of migrants wanting to come here for that work with award wages.
It is just not that simple, it's not "black and white" again VL. Not having a go, you just can't broad brush this across the board.

I've seen a fair bit of anti-backpacker commentary on here. Young Australians are backpacking all over the world, working in London, ski resorts, surf camps, NY, School camps in the USA etc. They are typically on reciprocal visas.
Do you blokes think Aussies are rorting other country's visa systems too? I just don't get the anti-backpacker sentiment.
Who knows, maybe some smooth Frenchie came to Australia and cut your grass or you caught him digging in your potato patch?

VicLocal all full blown card carrying commie when it comes to anything the LNP sewer rats do except for a total and complete corruption of our immigration and visa programs where he turns into one of those puff piece inner city pinko lefties who gets all hot and bothered under his cravat while sipping his 1/2 strength decaf soy latte.

WTF are you VL? How can you not see the LNP have been reaming worker’s pay and conditions via unnecessary cheap foreign workers since they learnt the hard lesson of Howard’s Workchoices folly.

FS have a hard look at yourself.

EDIT: remember the 250,000 direct and indirect (unionised) workers in the car industry and who got rid of them VL?

GS, I'm happy to defend foreign labour (the actual people). It doesn't mean I support the dodgy system that brings many of them to Australia.
In other words, I kind of get the shits with Aussie workers pointing their fingers at exploited people on work visas. It's the bosses and the LNP who create and profit from this situation. Never forget who the real enemy is Comrade GS. It's not some islander picking fruit on low wages trying to support a family back in Samoa. It's not the Indian deliveroo rider trying to earn enough not to starve.

Not true.

If someone is working for below award then they’re a scab and it undermines every gain Australia’s workers have made through decades of blood , sweat and tears. It doesn’t matter where they’re from or what colour their skin . A scab is a scab and they need to fck right off.

It’s a slap in the face to Australians when a guest worker does it.

The idiot right strikes again. Hey blowin you dumb fuck, have you worked out that when workers blame people on a lower economic rung, it’s a sure sign they’ve been played by people at the top of the economic ladder. Still not pointing the finger at the bosses who hire the cheap labour. It’s always the foreigners fault with you

15.4%?!

I did not know that

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/commentary/the-superannuation-wars-are-...

kaarnts

And there’s that pleasant Vic Local vibe which ends another otherwise worthwhile discussion.

"If someone is working for below award then they’re a scab and it undermines every gain Australia’s workers have made through decades of blood , sweat and tears. It doesn’t matter where they’re from or what colour their skin . A scab is a scab and they need to fck right off."
Jeez. I wonder if the kids think dads a scab when they actually get a little bit of food on the table and a roof over their head. Pretty low blow...in.

Yeah for sure Bluediamond. I’m a real low life bastard when I think it’d be a good idea to protect the award wage system which gives Australians a decent shot at life.

You’ve got to finish the story about scab dad putting food on the table though : And then the second dad comes along and steals the job cause he works for less than the first dad and then the third dad comes along and steals the job cause he works for less than the second dad and next thing you know everyone is working for 2 cents an hour and everyone starves except the boss.

At least that’d solve the problem of excess population growth cause no ones coming here once we are a third world country .

Actually Bluediamond, let’s flesh out your story some more . Who is this mythical dad willing to work for below award and why does he have to accept less than the Australian minimum wage ? And what do you think he’s doing for his kid’s future by contributing to the destruction of Australian work conditions ?

Re the superannuation discussion. How about this for an innovative idea. Why not allow big business and investment consortiums that are run by people who have the best interests of Australians at heart, have access to citizens superannuation funds to invest in their pet projects?

https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/rinehart-pratt-and-fox-spear...

Another off the cuff idea from Peter Costello is to have the Australian sovereign wealth fund as the default super fund for Australians. His angle is probably to cut out the union funds.

LoungeLizard, not sure how the government is siphoning off your money, they tax your super at a lower rate than your wage so they are actually giving you money, how good is that? The highest fees are charged by the bank funds not industry funds.

Blowin, you should become a fiction writer!!! Not just on swellnet!

And does "Orstralian" include indigenous Australians? Because they probably can see some parallels with these foreign bastards coming and taking everything that belongs to them too hey!!

And I’m out. I don’t even understand what you’re talking about .

Oh no! No 'wow' at all for you sickeraz.

Still, your new outburst is a really good tool for again highlighting the huge differences between Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures and the colonial invaders culture, which was imposed by, and which we have perpetuated by the use of brute force.

In your initial, heated outburst you said,

'Funny how you keep on about the ‘indigenous language’, my understanding is there are over 300 indigenous languages. '

I then answered,

'Like many words in the english language, language can be used as an umbrella like, and time saving term to encompass all languages. As you are interested, and as I've pointed out on here many times, there are indeed many Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultural groups, and if you take into account the different dialects, there about 1000 or more different ways of using speech, or language, in our terms.'

Note that I used the terms, 'dialect', 'speech', and 'language', sickery. Now if we look at the definitions of each of those, we see how messy it gets, and again, how difficult it is for Indigenous Australians to express their Cultures in a way that suits our ideology.

'In popular usage, a language is written in addition to being spoken, while a dialect is just spoken.'

'https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/01/difference-bet....'

As Traditional Indigenous Australians didn't use writing, then your initial 'understanding' re 'languages', isn't very understanding at all. And not very good, 'real' 'science' on your part.

'But surely the difference is deeper than a snappy aphorism suggests. The very fact that “language” and “dialect” persist as separate concepts implies that linguists can make tidy distinctions for speech varieties worldwide. But in fact, there is no objective difference between the two: Any attempt you make to impose that kind of order on reality falls apart in the face of real evidence.'

Never mind. Design you say? When I left school I went to the Institute of Technology Australia and studied 'design'. I worked for the Highways Dept of SA for around a dozen years, including in road design, then bridge design. Could you tell us which part of your study and experience in that field that you've now introduced, directly relates to recognised qualifications and experience in Traditional and Contemporary Indigenous Australian Cultural issues? And likewise with recognised qualifications and experience re racism. The type of qualifications and experience that an Indigenous Organisation for instance, would require if wanting to employ someone of significance in those areas? Its worth noting that if any role required caring and mentoring, then you would need recognised qualifications and experience in those areas too. I mean sure, have a go there with the design thingy, and perhaps throw in for good measure that you are doing your course down the track, and have some friend even, but, your application is going to make a nice bin liner without anything relevant.

Cutting to the chase, your latest, angrily blurted out outburst still leaves your situation as,

'What you are expressing is that you have a lot to learn in the subject matter', although now with the added negatives re being unable, or not wanting to open your mind to accepting where you actually are in this subject matter, in reality.

Again, great that you want to learn about the world's most successful Cultures ever. The links I posted are revealing, I hope that you looked. Otherwise the very real danger of this ludicrous situation repeating looks imminent.

'Yeah , I'm aware of this Happyas$.

Well aware of the allocations of our tax dollars and who they support.

I actually said that to an indigenous lady that was presenting a course on cultural sensitivity that I attended after she'd laid it on too thickly that Whitey only cares for himself , not even his family, unlike her faultless people....very Upliftesque.

Of course our houses will not be appropriated in this Great Leap Forward .'

https://www.swellnet.com/comment/542822

Obviously the author of this quote had no understanding at all of the differences between Traditional Indigenous Australian concept of 'family', and ours. Unless somehow the likes of pollution, destruction and degradation can be twisted into 'cares'. For starters, 12 atomic tests... and the beat goes on...

So, from what I've learned, there is blatant racism on this site. And again, you choose silence, despite notable Australians repeatedly requesting the opposite.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/mar/02/adam-goodes-interview-raci...

Your flimsy, putrid mask is grimy, grotty, stinks and needs replacing, sickeraz...

Yep.

Australia’s social democracy was unmatched . The most successful community caring program ever witnessed in the last 80 million years.

Someone who broke their leg in remote Tasmania could have professional medical aid transported by helicopter and then they’d be transferred to a hospital to be cared for by strangers until they were better. Nothing was expected in return- no money , not even a thank you . All of which was provided by every Australian donating a portion of their labour and life ( in kind ) to provide such level of care. Thankless and unwitnessed acts of kindness and humanity equating to care contributed by every member of our society to anyone who needed it. Anyone at all .

Unmatched level of caring . The most successful and caring culture in 80 million years. Australians should be very proud !

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-46147206

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-06/conjoined-twins-separated-in-melb...

To claim otherwise would be racist. I think that’s obvious to everyone. Because there is a hierarchy of social caring similar to a football league leadership board and each race has its position which is immutable and permanent and not subject to any nuance or contradiction at all and whichever community ( team ) you barrack for defines who you are and your moral authority on all matters in life .....lol.

Of course a resume and relevant qualifications are needed to prove you really barrack for your team and you’re not just a fly- by- night humanist who cares for people in general.

Yawn

Calling some of the most underprivileged in society scabs? A pat on the back for you kind caring sir.. Because who doesn't strive to work a below award rate job. Living the ozzee dream.

Sorry Bluediamond. I still don’t understand what you are saying at all.

When you say underprivileged are you referring to people like the holidaying Spanish bloke in South Australia who shut the entire state down and compromised the COVID tracing efforts after lying about one of his below award , cash paying jobs to the authorities ?

It seems that perhaps you’re bigoted against Australians judging by the way you say “ Orstralia “ and “ Ozzee dream “ in a derogatory fashion. I don’t understand this either. Australia was known as a working person’s utopia because of our award system which guaranteed a certain dignity of life for anyone able to work. To undermine the award system is a regressive step towards the plight of third world nations and true under privilege. Anyone who knowingly accepts below the award is contributing to the destruction of this system.

Interesting take on Australia’s super system

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/11/universal-pension-better-than-c...

Blowin. You and i have a very different take on what it means to be Australian. Fear not though, for i'd guess you're in the 90% of the population that thinks just like you.
I'm not gonna debate with you, You are always right and there's really no point. You seem to know alot of stuff and i know you're well intentioned.....but i think there's a bigger picture that gets overlooked.

Red mist at dawn! Knee jerk! Hangover bullshit ahoy 'restoration' project!!!

'Yeah , I'm aware of this Happyas$.

Well aware of the allocations of our tax dollars and who they support.

I actually said that to an indigenous lady that was presenting a course on cultural sensitivity that I attended after she'd laid it on too thickly that Whitey only cares for himself , not even his family, unlike her faultless people....very Upliftesque.

Of course our houses will not be appropriated in this Great Leap Forward .'

https://www.swellnet.com/comment/542822'

The author of the above demonstrates total lack of understanding, and zero sensitivity of what the term 'family',means to Indigenous Australians. Again. And attempts to continually bullshit out of simple facts, rather than actually attend to learn, continuing to use brute force to enforce his viewpoint on Indigenous Australians, as has been the norm since the british lied and invaded and stole 'Australia'.

And the beat goes on.

'Unmatched level of caring .'

'Australia's super system'

'Unmatched level of caring .'

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/may/15/australias-biodivers...

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2019/oct/17/strip...

https://independentaustralia.net/environment/environment-display/rage-ov...

'Australia's Super system'

'Unmatched level of care'

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/sas-war-crimes-killing-became-in...

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/sas-war-crimes-killing-became-in...

''They pretend to themselves they are in control of events where perhaps they are not. ”

Poor lil' blowie!!! Too much asbestos exposure in that old 'restoration'!!! Make sure you declare it! The 'unmatched family super system!!!' Don't you go fibbin' about it, to save a few quid, ya got a history of swillnut bullshittin' blowie'... again...

@ bluediamond. you may or may not be aware, the term "scab" is used by unions and their members to describe other workers that will come in and continue working during an industrial dispute.
These days it is generally during these protected actions, that large corporations will engage labor hire companies to bring in these "scab" workers, usually well under the award rate. It undermines all the hard work that our forefathers did in getting the current working conditions wage earners enjoy today. (annual leave, sick leave, etc,etc).
The example Blowin gave about father working for a lesser rate, then being replace by someone else on an even lesser rate, is currently referred to as the "race to the bottom" which does nobody any favors, except the fat cat corporations, generally paying little to no tax, contributing little to the country, whilst enjoying their mega profits at our expense.

The Australian social democracy- the most deluxe , amasing society in 80 million years of human history. Australians will come and rescue you and care for you regardless of who you are and they’ll risk their lives and do it at great expense without a thought for thanks or demand for anything in return.

https://www.navy.gov.au/media-room/publications/semaphore-search-and-res...

If you can’t appreciate just how unparalleled, amasing and deluxe Australia’s social democracy is and how it’s had no equal in 80 million years of human history then you are either racist or not qualified to assess the situation properly.

Bloody immigrants...

Its advanced!!!!

"If you can’t appreciate just how unparalleled, amasing and deluxe Australia’s social democracy is and how it’s had no equal in 80 million years of human history"
No equal? Oh please, I heard all that exceptionalism shite in the USA for years. America's the greatest country in the world. Everyone wants to be like us. We are the best. No need to look at what other countries do really well, because we are the best. Full stop end of discussion.
Australia's democracy is good, but it's far from the best in the world. NZ has a much better system, much less corruption, and much less partisan media. There's genuine diversity in their parliament that better represents public opinions. Canada also has outstanding democratic institutions and norms. Northern Europe is has some outstanding features that Australia would do well to adopt.
But don't worry about that blowin. Just keep mindlessly clapping for team Australia and ignore the fact the country is becoming increasingly corrupt and our media is being hollowed out by the LNP and US owned megalomaniacs. GO TEAM AUSTRALIA.

It’s tongue in cheek bloke. Apologies for not playing down to an audience that includes people like yourself.

There’s a lot of truth in what I’m saying though.

The good ol' ozzie 'family'!!! Leading the way!!!! Its true... again!!!

As good 'ol blowie continues to bury his head in asbestos!!! Its farkin'...

how great australian democracy is? that's the tongue-in-cheek shtick again, right? no freedom of speech, no freedom of assembly, secret trials, no right to silence. the head of our political and judicial system is an unelected hereditary monarch of a foreign country in another hemisphere.

Hey @Fitzroy21 and @Blowin. Actually wasn't aware of that term so i'll own that and apologies to Blowin for misinterpreting what he was saying, if that's the context he was using it in? Everyday's a school day right. Having said that it doesn't diminish my point at all. To place yourself into the shoes of that worker that is so desperate for survival that they'll take a job below award wage...what drove them to leave their country in the first place to come and do that? It can't be easy and i feel the need to defend those who can't defend themselves on here.
And as for this whole thing about Australia being the greatest country ever. I just can't buy that, not when it's built on the absolute disintegration of an ancient culture and people. I personally harbour alot of guilt and shame for being a white man in a country that is still in many ways dismissive about aboriginal Australia. And to not show some humility and humanity towards those in less privileged positions to our own (being a white male in this country is the golden ticket), i feel that we aren't honouring and helping heal the wounds of the past. I think we owe it to the original inhabitants of this country to show a new way and the way Blowin is saying 'scabs can fuck right off' is an example of how little we, as a nation, as Australians have actually evolved in our thought process, our conduct and our national spirit. That's my thoughts. Right or wrong. But yep, don't pick on the little guys or i'll fire up. ha.

Here's another union term, you may not be familiar with, BD: grubby subbie.

WA is littered with them, especially congregating up north. Call them a particular species of FIFO scab.

haha. Yep! Have come across plenty of those in my time here Facto. 'Littered' being an apt description.
Hope you score out of this next little run of swell, work permitting. Yew!

And of course blowin's anti foreign scab rant is based on the highly dubious assumption that foreign labour is told exactly what they are getting themselves in for.
Personally, I'm tipping there's plenty of people on working visas who get told they will be paid the same wage as Australians and have their accommodation costs taken care of, only to find an entirely different situation when they rock up for work on day one. It's not like they can just jump on a plane and head home.
In blowin's world that would still be the foreigners' fault and he won't be criticising any Aussie company involved in the exploitation.

in the pre-covid days when i had face-to-face classes, my students, both australian and international, were mighty pissed with work conditions in australia.
pretty much all them were being ripped off by their employees and they knew it.

if you're middle aged and see a bunch of youngsters congregating...run. they are a very angry bunch.

Interesting how two days ago the conversation was that governments sign free trade deals partly in order to facilitate cheap workers into the country and to help certain parts of the economy to suppress wages.

Now, as usual, that's been swept under the rug in order to go back to the usual conversation of "it's ok because to say otherwise is racist".

Are you sure you fellas aren't LNP operatives? :)

.... or an immigration / visa agent?

Chook I reckon their main gripe is real estate prices.

Personally, I can handle not getting a proper meal break as long as my median wage ( I wouldn't be within a bull's roar of the average income around here) can buy me a house, any house, within half an hour of work (and that's not even anywhere in town).

Exactly Guy, for the umpteenth time, this fixation with pseudo-left virtue signalling is a right wing wet dream.

andy, the kids i talk to are uni students. buying a house isn't even remotely on their radar. maybe you have experience with older people.

Nah, I worked with a few dozen youngsters in the 18-23 bracket at the local Rissole. They were all pretty aware that owning a house in town, especially on a single income, was going to be a very tall order.

And they were bitter, pissed off that they're being priced out of the area they've grown up in.

Maybe because we had a reputable employer, concerns of getting underpaid in the immediate sense (as opposed to the macro picture) were of less concern.

wages are high in Aus.

it's just that the cost of housing has gone fcuking ridick in the last 2 decades.

Yep I remember doing a road trip to the Sydney Olympics and stopping in at Wooli.

600m2 in Olen Close, a stones throw from the river and an easy stroll to the beach was around $40k.

A year later and the same block was $140k.

For me that was the exact period it all started.

Reckon if that block had a house on it now you'd be looking at maybe $600k +

FR, wages are high...if your employer isn't ripping you off. and my students all seemed to be getting ripped off.
did you feel that confident that ag business hire place you contacted would put money in your bank account at the rates advertised in the ads?

I suspect that's the exception rather than the rule Chook.
I'd like to hear more though.

Especially if you're an Australian with your family and other support systems, even young'uns seem to know their rights and people are ready to blow the whistle.

interesting some have never heard the term scab, bring back the old school union days I say...

maybe without the stevedore element, those pricks just seem to take the piss. but they do serve a purpose... someone needs to keep up the good fight... keep a foot wedged in the ever swinging shut door... god knows the modern day office monkeys are fucking useless...

I find the student / backpacker arguments most interesting, having done fruit picking work myself, back in the day when jobs were scarce, it's always been a dog of an industry, and this was 20 odd years ago, back when there was no student / buying permanent residency sausage factory

and having had an overseas girlfriend work illegally for 5 bucks an hour back in the day, I have little sympathy, as they often know what they are taking on, she knew, it was just for pocket money,

no one is forcing them...

and overseas students are supposed to be self funded, that's the contract they sign. there's nothing that says they are entitled to good paying jobs. its just sloppyness that has built up in the system, and a sense of entitlement that developed through the golden years (not to mention too much pc-ness) that brings us to this current shit state of affairs

pretty obvious there's some enablers on here that have been printing cash on the gravy train...

our neoliberal fake left lnp stooge duo

again...