The United States(!) of A
this one goes well beyond that roadkill...
his press protection racket have turned on him, and european allies are pissed
biden is indefensible, the guy should step down, and save us all the embarrassment...
they'd enact their bait n switch plan now... if only harris hadn't proven to be almost as useless as biden and the most disliked vp ever... the democrats have snookered themselves, trying to be too smart, manipulative and conniving
this one goes well beyond that roadkill...his press protection racket have turned on him, and european allies are pissed
biden is indefensible, the guy should step down, and save us all the embarrassment...
they'd enact their bait n switch plan now... if only harris hadn't proven to be almost as useless as biden and the most disliked vp ever... the democrats have snookered themselves, trying to be too smart, manipulative and conniving[/quote
Not sure why that quote did not do as usual.
Both the Dems and Republican are as bad as each other. Harris is a joke and was chosen to suit an agenda and promote a woman of colour, she is not up to the job. Biden is proving himself to be a hopeless tired old man…snooorre
And the 'artful 'deal that Trump, the greatest deal maker eveeer, made with the Taliban? That's got nothing to do with Al Qaeda and ISIS regaining traction in Afghanistan? And W's 'ambitious' nation building plans - derailed by a little diversion into Iraq? Obama's surge? Bit much to blame the whole mess on Biden.
If the Taliban, Al Qaeda and Isis have no one else to fight, they will fight each other, because they are just wired that way......only took the Americans 20 years to figure out they have to sort out their own crap....
One day, someone will rise up from amongst their own Afghan people and straighten things out and the people themselves will rise up as well and say enough is enough....but it won't come from westerners.
I actually think this will one will be a signature achievement for Biden, in the long run.
they had to get out.
he was the one that got them out.
Optimist wrote:If the Taliban, Al Qaeda and Isis have no one else to fight, they will fight each other, because they are just wired that way......only took the Americans 20 years to figure out they have to sort out their own crap....
One day, someone will rise up from amongst their own Afghan people and straighten things out and the people themselves will rise up as well and say enough is enough....but it won't come from westerners.
Well, after 000’s of years it hasn’t happened, so I wouldn’t hold much hope. Tribes will never unite or be controlled by other tribes…nor will religion have any part in peace.
freeride76 wrote:I actually think this will one will be a signature achievement for Biden, in the long run.
they had to get out.
he was the one that got them out.
Good or bad it was actually Trumps proposal/plan, Biden was just continuing what Trump had said and planned he would do, was suppose to happen back in May.
you might be right.
be interesting to see who gets the credit or blame.
My gut feeling is it will be Biden.
"And the 'artful 'deal that Trump, the greatest deal maker eveeer, made with the Taliban? That's got nothing to do with Al Qaeda and ISIS regaining traction in Afghanistan? And W's 'ambitious' nation building plans - derailed by a little diversion into Iraq? Obama's surge? Bit much to blame the whole mess on Biden."
as I said before, the situation certainly isn't biden's fault, but the disasterous beyond belief withdrawal certainly is...
he just ignored everyone, experts, advisors, intelligence, etc, and believed his own bullshit, that he's 'the adult' and 'the expert'... when really, he is a woeful B grade politician at best, always has been, with four decades of history of known 'wrong on every foriegn policy' positions... which would be disasterous enough in itself if the democrats made him boss... but they did it at the end of his shelf life, when he's clearly is not functioning anywhere near his B grade best...
the guy has lied, plagerised, and scammed his way as one of the most typically average career politicians ever, then the democrats scammed him in through the back door as the big guy... at one of the most crucial times in history ever...
blaming trump is a cop out, which he does, as he claims to take 'full responsibility' in the most distant, false, hubris filled manner ever... he has reversed just about every trump policy as a matter of urgency and purpose (leaving a trail of disasters...) but he cannot reverse or change this one?
it's just plain cop out of the highest order...
I, and most people, don't want it reversed, but some semblance of planning and a little humility would go a long long way to making it more successful
biden was a fraud at his best, having him there now is exposing the shameless fraud that the democrat party has become
it's a disgrace, and biden is but the figurehead...
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2021/08/26/clueless_joe_stick...
Indod: “Good or bad it was actually Trumps proposal/plan, Biden was just continuing what Trump had said and planned he would do, was suppose to happen back in May.
Ya can’t have it both ways. Trump’s ‘deal’ got the US out of Afghanistan, but it significantly undermined the viability of the Afghan government. If they’d tried to leave in May, would things have been better or worse than they are now?
If Trump made America look snarky and petulant, Biden has made it look frail and incompetent.
Joe’s weakness as VP was his foreign policy execution. Looks like he’s carrying that over into his presidency. Would be OK if his VP offset that, but that’s certainly not the case.
Also, This chapter of has actually been way better than I expected. (Got about 5 days to go.) Reckon we’re going to see fragmentation and significant instability within 3 months.
[in Afghanistan, not US. That horse has bolted… ;-)]
etarip wrote:Indod: “Good or bad it was actually Trumps proposal/plan, Biden was just continuing what Trump had said and planned he would do, was suppose to happen back in May.
Ya can’t have it both ways. Trump’s ‘deal’ got the US out of Afghanistan, but it significantly undermined the viability of the Afghan government. If they’d tried to leave in May, would things have been better or worse than they are now?
Im wasn't making a comment on if it was a good or bad thing, im just pointing out Biden was just following through with Trumps plan.
I think there’s some truth in Biden’s claim that there was no way out that wasn’t messy. They just had to get out.
Not as confident as FR that this will be seen as a Biden success story. But difficult to judge in the immediate aftermath.
Need to take the long view. That’s what Biden is doing.
Worth noting that as VP Biden opposed the Obama surge. Mighta been right on that one and at least he’s consistent and has the courage of his convictions on foreign policy.
indo-dreaming][quote=etarip wrote:Indod: “I wasn't making a comment on if it was a good or bad thing, im just pointing out Biden was just following through with Trumps plan.
Yeah, and I’m asking you, do you think it would have been better or worse than the current situation if they’d stuck to the May timetable?
I couldn't see it being better, most likely pretty much the same.
But i know one thing for certain if Trump had done it the media would have painted it as far far worse.
Done what?
Left wing media commentators (guardian et al) have been very critical of Biden’s lack of consultation and coordination with Europeans.
Shit sandwich. Forever war needed to end sometime. Left a pretty shitty fair accompli by the previous administration.
no doubt it had to be messy, just not this messy...
and there's still 5 days to go!
the messiness has just begun i imagine... and if biden doesn't get on top of it, it could get real ugly...
yes the long game is more important, but biden's biggest issue, seems to be he had his heart set on september 11 from the start (a pretty perverse goal, that really makes little sense from my prrspective) and he has ignored all the best information in order to make that happen...
this is classic contemporary democrats, where all appearances are stage managed to full effect, and the stuff that matters is ignored in the process. they have become such superficial sluts to all things hollywood PR and marketing, they don't even understand what matters anymore...
I have no doubt trump would have gotten out cleaner. and I have no doubt he would have gotten most of the important military equipment out first too, because trump had power over the taliban. he negotiated a deal, and they knew what would happen if they broke it.
biden had no such power over them, he stupidly gave them extra time by accident and his overflowing hubris, and then when it started to turn to shit, he ignored his best advisors and thought he had it all covered, plus the taliban knew he is weak as piss...
did he really expect them to just patiently wait in the shadows, sit back, chill out and wait, while he could get his full stage show together?
that's just not how stuff works
he, and his administration, are just all kinds of dumb... naive and conceited to the extreme...
and, rather ironically, in this process, biden has accidently done way more damage to the UK, EU / NATO alliances in a few weeks, than trump could purposely do in four years...
I really cannot see things being much worse, but they will be... still 5 days to go...
“I have no doubt trump would have got out cleaner. and I have no doubt he would have gotten most of the important military equipment out too, because trump had power over the taliban. he negotiated a deal, and they knew what would happen if they broke it.”
OK mate. Lay it out for me. Two questions up front relating to your first assertion. How would he have done it?
1. Gotten out cleaner, and
2. Gotten the ‘equipment’ out
And your second.,
1. What power did he have over the Taliban, and
2. What would he have done if they’d broken the deal?
Simple terms. You seem pretty sure about this, so I guess you have the answers on hand.
anyone could get out cleaner... if they can stick their timeline...
biden got caught with his pants down, big time...
trucks, planes, whatever it takes... trump's a show pony, there's no way he would have allowed such a whimsical effort in this regard, he's also a spiteful shit, I think he genuinely wouldn't want them to have it
the power... they knew he'd bomb the shit out of them if they didn't hold up their end of the deal, he actually had a deal, biden had nothing over them. I know 'the left' hate his strongman image, but love him or hate him, it works, people know he means business
the democrats on the other hand...
some very contemporary top brass... however...
You’re not very good at this are you?
I’ve asked you to tell me how. Lay it out. If it’s as simple as you say, then spell it out for me.
Please explain to me how bombing the Taliban would aid in the security of the Kabul airport. Go on. Please. I’m giving you the chance to convince me.
it's not that simple, and it would still be a shitshow
but the big difference is having a timeline you can stick to, rather than giving your enemy an extra four months to take ground and consolidate
the forces would have still have had total control of the kabul wider area at a minimum. that's gotta to be way easier to manage than negotiating it as taliban territory
that bit is so simple, surely anyone can appreciate that...
Cop out. Complete cop out syppo. You’re so sure there’s a better alternate plan but can’t even articulate it.
Q: Do you know how many troops the US had in Afghanistan as at 15 January 2021 and what their mission was?
I put it to you the other day, and you didn’t answer. I asked you today, and you can’t answer other that ‘better than Joe’. I’ll ask again. How would you do it?
A: 2500. Focused on security of the primary US installations in Kabul and advisory support to the Afghan military. And that was on a pre-planned schedule for withdrawal. Which was paused to ensure that there was some security presence maintained. I think it was down to 650 by the end of July - after it had been extended.
how many troops do you reckon you need to provide security for a city the size of Kabul? And do you reckon redeploying that number (and here’s a hint - it’s somewhere upwards of 5000 troops, supplemented by the Afghan Army, along with a whole bunch of extra stuff like artillery and gunships and planes and the associated logistics not counted in the 5000) would violate the terms of the agreement with the Taliban?
(And I’m pretty sure the deal was mostly focused on the Taliban not attacking US / Allied troops as they withdrew… so there’s that little piece of complication - but hey, simple!)
Like I said, you’re not very good at this.
I don't claim to be good at this
you're clearly ex military, or some ship nerd, or something, so you think you are...
mate, i just read a variety of sources, left to right, and surprisingly, they largely agree for once... and it seems the allies agree too... joe fucked up... royally... simple as that...
yet you see it differently....
but let's entertain your little gotcha game for a while... from my limited newly aquired knowledge, yes those 2500 troops were protecting installations and supporting the afghan army, ...and from what I've read and seen, it's the slow spirit crushing withdrawal of that support that has left the afghan military feeling rather vulnerble and their military assetts somewhat 'low equity'... ie fucking useless, as they didn't have the resources and sometimes even the bullets to use the equipment...
yet big joe called em a bunch of chickens...
now the bigwig dude that said this, also said these US troop positions have taken virtually no casualties in recent years, and could have continued in that capacity (non fighting) basically as long as requited, whilst biden got his shit together...
which, at a minimum, would have kept the taliban on the edges off the cities (where it'd be easier to bomb the shit out of them - if necessary - with no additional troops required possibly... (drones)) - whilst you could do the logistics of getting the necessary people and equipment out of there.
i imagne, this would have also allowed them to keep that second airport everyone''s been talking about, (I don't know the name of, and will not google, because I don't really care about this game) ...which would have made the logistics a hell of a lot easier, and at least given some sort of back up contingency capacity ...but biden deemed it unimportant or unnecessary, or something... because he's the foreign policy guru man and he's got this....
but basically, that all comes back to, his big fuck up, which was giving them extra time to consolidate and take extra ground, ....while he seems to have been doing nothing he should have been doing, ie. like listening to experts, having contingencies in place, and being fluid in a very volatile situation... instead of being a cocky old delusional fool, who still, unbelievably, believes he has it over his peers...
the man was a reject at his best capacity, he is not at his best capacity
Well put etarip.
Up front, my apologies for being condescending in my comments. It’s not necessary and my argument spilled from the rational to the personal. I’ve had some education and experience in these matters, but I wouldn’t consider myself an expert. I will try and expand on my points a little, so it’s a bit essay-ish. If you’re OK with that.
My first issue is that you’re conflating foreign policy with military strategy and then operational level decisions. They’re different things. And Joe Biden has a lot of control over (and responsibility for) the first, limited control (in this scenario) over the second, and rightfully little over the third. I’m also finding it hard to reconcile the self-contradictory statements you’ve made above.
When I look at the solution you’re obliquely proposing, it looks like an extension of the withdrawal timeline, an increase in troops and recommencing both ground and air combat operations against the Taliban? Have I summarized this right?
If so, which of those is politically palatable, or consistent with the strategy of ending the forever war? But then you go on to say that they should have gotten out quicker - “his big fuck up was giving them time to consolidate” and “ it's the slow spirit crushing withdrawal of that support”, while still advocating the removal of materiel (stuff) from the Afghan military? Is this right?
- The 2500 troops was the forces in place in January 2021, when Biden took over. This number has been reduced progressively since then, with a proportionate decrease in supporting assets and a huge reduction in the contractor support to the Afghan military. I read somewhere recently that as troop numbers reduced the contractor ratio increased to circa 7:1. These contractors (understandably) left as the Taliban advanced.
- The Afghan military broke. Stopped fighting. That’s a statement of fact. It appears to have been a political decision, but most likely reflected the situation on the ground. I was chatting last week with a British mate of mine, did 2 tours in Afghanistan and 1 in Iraq. He reflected on the “Afghan tradition of switching sides being clever and oddly honourable”. The most proficient elements of the Afghan Army were over-used in Kandahar and Lashkar Gar to make up for the mass desertions in the Afghan police and Army. They were cooked.
- You’re massively overstating the efficacy of air power, and the US’s ability to generate it, in this type of scenario. There’s a couple of things to consider. Firstly, without troops on the ground directing it, there’s a good chance that you won’t hit what you want and worse start hitting what you don’t want. Secondly, it’s actually really hard to generate the mass of tactical aircraft to make a difference, and they can’t be everywhere. You need airfields to operate them from because most aircraft capable of operating in direct support of ground troops are short-ranged. Or you can base them somewhere else and fly into provide the support, but you need tankers. Lots of them. And you need the airspace control mechanisms along with the tactical interfaces to actually make it all work. Which all means more people…. You follow? The most heavily armed drones carry about 6 missiles / bombs. That’s not a lot in the scheme of things. They’re not ideal for close support of troops. These are tactical decisions, but have significant operational level overheads.
- Bagram airfield is the one that everyone is talking about. On the surface it makes sense to keep another one open. That’s going to cost you though - more troops to hold it open, and you start to present more targets than less. It’s also 25 miles from Kabul, which raises a whole bunch of questions about where the mass of humanity that you’re trying to evacuate stay, eat, etc etc while you’re trying to sort it out. You’re miles from any infrastructure. They’ve evac’d close to 100,000 people in a week.
On foreign policy, I agree that Biden’s unilateral approach to this was a huge failure. It appears that there was very little consultation and coordination with allies. That’s deeply harmful, and I think unnecessary. I’ll talk to Pakistan on the other thread….
"OK mate. Lay it out for me. Two questions up front relating to your first assertion. How would he have done it?
1. Gotten out cleaner, and
2. Gotten the ‘equipment’ out
And your second.,
1. What power did he have over the Taliban, and
2. What would he have done if they’d broken the deal?
Simple terms. You seem pretty sure about this, so I guess you have the answers on hand. "
Not sure are good at this etarip ? This response is at hand .
Trump did have power over the Taliban . Dopy Joe admitted this in the last 2 days .
The day after they signed the agreement he bombed the shit out of their leaders for breaking the
terms . He said he would do it again in a heart beat and of course they believed him . Guess what happened ? They behaved .
If Joe didn't like ANY aspect of the deal he could and should have changed it .
If Trump was managing the withdrawal the Taliban would have known what he do if they fucked up .
So it would have been much easier to get ALL the people and equipment out . Not , though , the equipment that the Afghan Army were using when they surrendered . At least the would not been taking joy rides in US Black Hawks .
This one of the biggest stuff ups of all time ! The US people ( and most of the media ) know it and are ashamed of their leadership .
If you knew your shit you should have known all of this and not needed to ask the dumb questions .
Overall, it was a pretty good deal for the Taliban, critics said. “Trump all but assured the future course of events would reflect the Taliban’s interests far more than the United States,” Miller writes. H.R. McMaster, Trump’s second national security adviser, has recently called it “a surrender agreement with the Taliban.” Another member of Trump’s National Security Council said it was “a very weak agreement.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/20/trump-peace-deal-tali...
Thanks again Hutchy for your responses.
I don’t agree with your assessment, of Trump’s power or of the enforcement mechanisms he (or Biden) have. See Roker’s link above for Trump’s former NSA assessment of the failings of the deal, and I’ll assume you’ve read all the comments above. I’m not sure which part you missed about the limitations of bombing, or of the fact that they’re not US Blackhawks, or the fact that there simply ain’t enough airlift to get all the ‘equipment’ out.
Can you tell me how many attacks on US forces the Taliban have conducted in the past 14 days?
Let’s revisit this in 6 weeks then 6 months time?
etarip . No lets continue now .
Have not read all the comments above but am answering your questions .
Fact 1 Trump bombed them the day after the deal . 2. The Taliban behaved while he was in power .3 . The news I read did say Black Hawks https://nypost.com/2021/08/26/taliban-appear-to-take-joyride-in-us-made-... 4. If Biden did not like ANY aspect of Trumps deal he should have changed
it . Even with his sloth like approach he had plenty of time . 5. Bidens withdrawal is a disaster and a human tragedy .
I do not know how many attacks the US forces have done in the last 14 days . Please tell me and especially the ones done on their leadership bases . Whatever the number it will be probably not
enough .
Why can you not admit that Trump DID have some power over the Taliban after the bombing ? They DID keep a low profile ( until Biden got in ) ? You too quickly deflected to discussing the deal and not the questions you asked for my liking .
Here is what happens when a wonderful soldier speaks out .
"His focus in the scathing critique was to question whether top brass stood up to the Biden administration, even while knowing that the administration's decision-making would lead to chaos, disaster, and possible deaths - as is tragically playing out now...
"I’m not saying we’ve got to be in Afghanistan forever, but I am saying: Did any of you throw your rank on the table and say 'hey, it’s a bad idea to evacuate Bagram Airfield, a strategic airbase, before we evacuate everyone,'" he said.
"Did anyone do that? And when you didn’t think to do that, did anyone raise their hand and say 'we completely messed this up.'" Scheller questioned further. What makes the short video unprecedented and raw is also that he's in uniform, sitting in what appears to be his base office (such 'political speech' in open contradiction of the chain of command while in uniform violates DoD policies). The long-serving officer of 17 years knows this, as he later acknowledged in a short follow-up message. "Did any of you throw your rank on the table..." - and question? ...Sheller himself does just that, and is now paying the price for it.
Politico and others later in the day Friday confirmed that not only was Scheller quickly relieved of command within 24 hours, but that action is being taken which will lead to discharge from the service altogether, likely pending UCMJ proceedings."
sypkan wrote:anyone could get out cleaner... if they can stick their timeline...
biden got caught with his pants down, big time...
trucks, planes, whatever it takes... trump's a show pony, there's no way he would have allowed such a whimsical effort in this regard, he's also a spiteful shit, I think he genuinely wouldn't want them to have it
the power... they knew he'd bomb the shit out of them if they didn't hold up their end of the deal, he actually had a deal, biden had nothing over them. I know 'the left' hate his strongman image, but love him or hate him, it works, people know he means business
the democrats on the other hand...
some very contemporary top brass... however...
Sypkan, Trump proved he was a coward when the Turkish PM called him and told him , " Turkey was going to invade the Nth of Syria where the Kurds and the USA had been fighting ISIS , and that the USA should withdraw their approx 1000 troops and let the turks go for it.....the Kurds are the best allies you can have in the M E.....Trump bent over , withdrew the troops , betrayed the Kurds....and the Turks marched in.......
what we have seen in Afghanistan should be the Pentagons job , not politicians.......the USA always leaves arms and munition when ever they quit a war they lost.....cut and run.....the US military machine does not have to account for its inventory.....they just buy more!
The Taliban didn't detonate the suicide Bomb it was ISIS-K , who have already had firefights with the Taliban , as the Taliban are too soft for ISIS-K........
The future is pretty simple...China now has the Talibans back.....they don't want to install their political ideology.....they just want to do business with Afghanistan , and in return the Taliban will not hassle China on the Uighurs......
Hutchy, happy to talk about this all day. But, how about you read the comments so I’m not repeating myself? You seem to have some comprehension issues, so maybe read it twice.
Get back to me when you’ve done that instead of rolling in hot, heavy and off-target.
thanks for consdered response, interesting breakdown
I can see how you think Im being contradictory, i was just giving alternatives that i've heard. but my main point is, that sitting and waiting four months for the taliban to get stronger, and afghan troops demoralised, is the core of the problem, ...you control kabul, you actually control a lot more...
biden and co. should have seen it coming....
anyway, that is done now, so to deal with the current situation some have proposed an extension, i was just saying how some have said it could be done
but tbh, even that's a clusterfuck. I find it most interesting that biden and co. were alluding to an extension in a cagey manner like he holds all the cards, then basically said biden had decided against it. when to me, it looked like biden put it to the taliban, and they flat turned him down
which just shows to me how little power biden has, bargaining power, not military might...
once kabul fell, it was game over, and opened up all sorts of complications
biden and co. should have seen it coming...
now the hawks would say why are you negotiating with terrorists? (which he is, a lot... not to mention paying...) and none of the above matters, just get in there, and take control of the situation etc. etc. ...which is where your scenario comes in...
personally, I don't want to get caught up in that situation at all, and people could debate the ins and outs of that forever...
we need to get out, it's a mess, i just thnk it would be hard for anyone to possibly do worse than joe has, it's not a clean exit at all, and he gave up all his bargaining chips through his usual incompetence and arrogance
and now the terrorists are drawng him back in regardless, with the 'need' for retribution and 'horizon events' or whatever his new buzzword is...
dunno who this guy is, or outkick... I assume he's a bit conservative, he has a fund the police t shirt on...
but anyway, he gives a great little rundown of the wider problems n the US, ...it's fucking dire...
democrats need to show some balls, admit their mistakes, and offer some sort of path out
they can't just let joe wittle himself away...
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/27/clay_travis_you_need_...
Thanks syppo.
I agree. We needed out. There was no clean way out. Especially with a fatally undermined Afghan government. There’s a few things we’re going to disagree on, and neither of us will be right anyway.
You control Kabul, you control Kabul… and nothing else. That’s the nature of counter-insurgency.
Normally don't read opinion pieces , as more often than not the opinion corresponds with a right or left leaning bias.....I like reading the facts that were used to form an opinion....
So came across this very good explanation of West vs Taliban vs ISIS-K......and should we be embracing the Taliban , as" the enemy of our enemy is our friend "...https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/27/islamic-state-enem...
udo wrote:And were off..
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-28/us-drone-strike-targets-islamic-s...
yeah Udo , I wonder where the USA got it's on ground intelligence from , the Taliban?
https://www.theage.com.au/world/asia/us-kills-islamic-state-k-planner-in...
brutus wrote:Normally don't read opinion pieces , as more often than not the opinion corresponds with a right or left leaning bias.....I like reading the facts that were used to form an opinion....
So came across this very good explanation of West vs Taliban vs ISIS-K......and should we be embracing the Taliban , as" the enemy of our enemy is our friend "...https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/27/islamic-state-enem...
The Guardian is one big opinion piece.
And I'm only joking the teeniest bit.
etarip I have done my homework . Time for you now to address my commenst regarding your questions and the numerous times you were demanding answers .
We are not now debating weather it was a good idea for Trump to withdraw . Any issues about that agreement that affected the current situation are definitely on the table . Also it is a fact that Biden could have changed or even tore up the original agreement .
My own view is that the US should do what they do in South Korea and kept a presence .
This shows clearly to me ( from your article ) that Trump had some power over the Taliban
"On Thursday, he credited the deal for the fact that the Taliban hadn’t attacked Americans during the withdrawal. “The commitment was made by President Trump: I will be out May 1st. In the meantime, you agree not to attack any Americans. That is the deal. That’s why no American was attacked.”
So get back to me . I will use your words -"Simple terms. You seem pretty sure about this, so I guess you have the answers on hand. "
Trump , unlike Obama and Bush ( and most other POTUS ) did not order military actions to initiate regime change in any other country ( surprised me ) . Congress did ask Muller to report on if Trump worked with the Russians to do it in the US . Very ironic as the US has tried to via military or covert means to change governments in every continent other tan Antarctica .
Brutus you are spot on . Would also put in Pakistan and Russia in the mix .
What question do you want answered? Just spell them out for me again. The only ones I can see were
1. why can’t I admit that Trump had power over the Taliban? I’ve explained that I don’t think he did. That view is shared by range of people including HR McMaster, his former NSA, which was Roker’s link I referred to. He didn’t have power over them - he gave them exactly what they wanted. Same as his ‘deals’ with North Korea and Turkey.
2. How many attacks has the US carried out on Taliban leadership in the past 14 days? That’s the inverse of the question I asked, but whatever. I’d say no attacks by the US on Taliban leadership. That would be the height of military ineptitude to do that mid evacuation.
The US was conducting air strikes against the Taliban as late as early august. These were in support of Afghan troops defending Kandahar and Lashka Gah. But their effect was acknowledged as being limited at that time. The utility of airstrikes pretty quickly evaporated once the Taliban took control of Kabul.
3. You’ve (kinda) asked why Biden didn’t tear up the Trump deal and do something different?
I think I’ve answered that too - would have involved more troops, extending the timeline further or recommitting to combat operations. Political suicide.
Sorry mate, you now think the US should have kept a presence, vis a vis South Korea? Right. We’ve opened the portal to weirdness. What fkn planet are you on? That was an option with a functioning Afghan government that had some geographic control and a functioning military.
Island Bay wrote:brutus wrote:Normally don't read opinion pieces , as more often than not the opinion corresponds with a right or left leaning bias.....I like reading the facts that were used to form an opinion....
So came across this very good explanation of West vs Taliban vs ISIS-K......and should we be embracing the Taliban , as" the enemy of our enemy is our friend "...https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/27/islamic-state-enem...
The Guardian is one big opinion piece.
And I'm only joking the teeniest bit.
well it's all about the content , but it doesn't change the facts that the USA/Allies will now have to work with the Taliban against the radical extremist Terrorists....try reading the article you might learn something?
udo wrote:And were off..
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-28/us-drone-strike-targets-islamic-s...
Good if they got the guy and no civilians hurt. But this stuff is chilling. I think Drone tech will be more a force for ill than good (if it isn't already) as it becomes more advanced and ubiquitous.
I remember that in the aftermath of 9/11 some commentators were calling for this type of approach. Treat 9/11 like a crime and not a declaration of war. Identify and hunt down the perpetrators and planners and meet out justice. As opposed to a full scale invasion.
For all the blood and treasure spilled -20yrs later the Taliban are in control and Al Qaeda/Isis are on the up - mighta been a better, if imperfect, way to go.
"well it's all about the content , but it doesn't change the facts that the USA/Allies will now have to work with the Taliban against the radical extremist Terrorists....try reading the article you might learn something?"
I will, Brutus. Read it.
But since when were the Taliban not "radical and extreme"?
I read part of John Bolton's book The Room Where It Happened ( cost me a dollar in a book sale) about his time working with Trump.
A theme is Trump's tendency to create and enjoy chaos. But the more disturbing unintended theme is the sheer chaos of the "normal" USA governmental processes under any President.
Every decision seems a last minute, almost random, outcome of competing interests, deals, personalities, revenge plots and a host of often illogical and counter-productive agendas - all with the daily news response reaction as the main motivator and measuring stick.
Bolton was smart but was fully involved and lost in the same game he criticised.
Chaos with Trump and without him.
It is hard to have any faith in good outcomes as the crazy mess of the Afghanistan pull-out shows.
They abandoned the safe military base airport exit option overnight weeks ago to the Taliban and so were left with Kabul as the only option.
A military guy who questioned the decision recently has been ... sacked - of course.
View good outcomes in US geopolitics as chance events as reliable as a dice roll.
But chaos benefits the MIC so deep down there is a perverse logic to it all.
Etarip - "What fkn planet are you on? That was an option with a functioning Afghan government that had some geographic control and a functioning military."
Der Fred . As you say it was an option . You seem to be very slow on the uptake . I said instead of doing the complete withdrawal have some presence as they do in Korea . Why does it work there and not in Afghanistan ?
Even Sleepy Joe acknowledges that Trump quietened the Taliban . For some reason you don't get it ?
Maybe it is something to do with their leadership not being to keen on seeing the 100 virgins just yet ?
If it kept them in their place when Trump did it why didn't Biden try it ? And keep doing it before they moved to every new province . Stupid ( not always ) to bomb the soldiers as their leaders are very happy to sacrifice them .
So you are the only person on the planet other than Biden who thinks the whole operation has gone smoothly according to plan ? You have the strategic nous of a mouse . I hope for Australia's sake your job involves no planning .
Here is my response to your question -"I do not know how many attacks the US forces have done in the last 14 days . Please tell me and especially the ones done on their leadership bases . Whatever the number it will be probably not enough .
Your answer -How many attacks has the US carried out on Taliban leadership in the past 14 days? That’s the inverse of the question I asked, but whatever. I’d say no attacks by the US on Taliban leadership. That would be the height of military ineptitude to do that mid evacuation.
Not my question at all . No attacks on their leadership when it has been proven to work ? Not doing it before as you say "would be the height of military ineptitude " .
I have only one question . Why are you acting so dumb of this issue ?
Etarip
Another thing that I believe Biden should have done differently . You will think this is crazy .
Move ALL the civilians ( including embassy staff ) out BEFORE moving out the military . Trump would have as he is not as dumb or Biden and you .
thanks Hutchy. Let’s call it a day.
Septic Tanks are going to Septic Tank