Interesting stuff

I'm going to throw this out there too.
Nutters on the left are not tolerated at all. Conspiracy theorists don't rise through the ranks, and if a "leftie" in a position of power goes off the reservation, they get dumped quickly.
On the right, the nutters are a protected species. Senator Molan, Canavan, the Minister for Manila, Dutton, Stoker, Abbott, etc etc etc. Same goes for their mates in the media and organised religion. Jones, Pell, Houston, Bolt etc.
There's $$$ to be made for conservative nutters. There's no future for nutters on the progressive side of politics.

By the way, I gave you your citations and you still side-step it in favour of being disingenuous.

This is an example of why you get a hard time and I really don't know why you do it.

Well my apologies if that wasn't the argument you were making. I'm not overly concerned by what the extreme nutters with no power on either side are ranting and raving about, it's mostly inconsequential. I assumed you were talking politicians, not punters...

Much more concerned about the anti-science nutters who hold positions of power. The crux of the issue you are talking about is social media, it allowed idiots to get organised.

Vic I've never mentioned Left political parties, I'm talking about individuals and how a continual muddying of the waters( i.e. believing in bullshit) bastardises rational discussion.
Have you been following this conversation at all?

Andy, I read the first one, second won't load for me though?

As previously mentioned though, seems we were talking different things, as the first one was talking about people in general, rather than political parties. The first one certainly touched on one the key features, which is a belief in simple solutions for complex problems.

Unfortunately it seems a really large slice of the populace like the idea of simple solutions for complex problems (3 word slogans?).

I don't think I get a hard time here! Everyone's reasonably civil I think.

Andy M, You may have not mentioned political parties but I was just adding to JQ's post.
I'm actually really worried about anti-science nutters who hold very high offices. The current POTUS is the perfect example of the dangers.
This orange lunatic genuinely thinks the USA is getting on top of Covid 19 and it will just disappear. That anti-science nonsense is putting people in early graves.

".....I'm saying that a growing acceptance of nonsense by the Left is making it harder to maintain cogent arguments and call the Right to account."

exactly!

by any measure 'the left' is in damage control at best atm. re. this. when you're flat out winning the race of the most ridiculed consistently, it's past time to pause for thought...

https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/745/pdf

Doesn't load?

"I'm not overly concerned by what the extreme nutters with no power on either side are ranting and raving about, it's mostly inconsequential"

Disagree because these people vote.

For example 52% of people in Mullumbimby don't vaccinate their kids. First there's obviously the potential impact on the kids but also, you've got big chunks of people with pretty compromised ways of assessing the world around them.

And that includes electing leaders and all the other stuff we do as part of a society.
So I believe it's quite consequential.

"For example 52% of people in Mullumbimby don't vaccinate their kids."

wow

...nationals voters?

joking

just to be clear

..your herd immunity problems are bigger than boris...

That's a shocking statistic Andy - but who do you think is representing these views in parliament? Obviously these people vote, but who for...

Big chunks of people with little to no science education and too much time to spend on facebook / youtube...

"...I'm actually really worried about anti-science nutters who hold very high offices. The current POTUS is the perfect example of the dangers.
This orange lunatic genuinely thinks the USA is getting on top of Covid 19 and it will just disappear. That anti-science nonsense is putting people in early graves."

you're actually hysterical is what you are

chances are we won't get a vaccine and the virus will just disappear

...into the background, just like a heap of other viruses...

you swallow the anti trump nuttery, hook line and sinker, every single time

enraged beyond irrational

Wow sypkan, I had no idea you were a virology expert, that must be a very interesting profession.

Way to ignore the 133,000 deaths there sypkan, and those figures are going to get a lot worse very quickly. 120,000 new cases in the last two days, most of them in the Sunbelt and Southern states.
Good luck defending Trump.

"Wow sypkan, I had no idea you were a virology expert, that must be a very interesting profession."
sypkan did some medical resurch on google.

well, I thought (post covid) it was common knowledge that we don't always find vaccines. corona viruses particularly difficult...

what happens when we don't find a vaccine?

it may (hopefully) die out to background levels like many others we've forgotten about

the deaths in the US are not that surprising or that high, unless you're an enraged tds'er, ...deaths per million is your friend

I didn't google, I hear stuff, it seems some of you are just incapable of listening

Ah Sypkan, the irony, it's almost too much.

What happens when we don’t find a vaccine?

Don’t put that question to VL!
1) he won’t answer
2) he’ll implode having to think about an actual solution that isn’t the easy / ideological way out

Go team 10%

google it jq

I'm comfortable with my sources, show me otherwise rather than smartarse dismissive remarks

I still think you're barking up the wrong tree JQ.
I'd say that it largely doesn't matter whether someone in government is representing these views or not, the damage is still being done across the broader society.

I can't access the full article but this abstract from a PhD thesis is food for thought.

"In four experiments, we found that exposure to conspiracy theories reduced people’s intention to engage in
(a) the political system
(b) environmentally-friendly initiatives
(c) childhood vaccination
Ironically however, instead of undermining the social status quo, we found in four experiments that conspiracy theories appear to bolster satisfaction with social systems. They appear to do so because they explain tragedies, disasters and social problems on the actions of destructive individuals and groups, rather than inherent flaws in society. By drawing attention away from the deeper limitations of social systems, conspiracy theories may therefore reduce, rather than increase, the likelihood of social and political change "

Just distractions for the easily-led virtue signallers, a retarded tribal badge of honour, as I've said before.

http://www.research.lancs.ac.uk/portal/en/publications/the-social-psycho...(3c95a547-02bb-4237-8c5d-5b40d5bb4714).html

Vic Local doesn't do shades of grey.

Geez I don't agree re it not mattering if these views are represented in parliament - I think legislation (or the lack thereof) can be far more damaging than comments on facebook.

Consider some of the events in the US - Conservatives refused or were unwilling to introduce legislation to mandate the use of face masks. They have cited various, completely unscientific and false concepts regarding this issue, completely ignoring the expert medical advice available to them. Their anti-science stance has arguably considerably hindered their countries struggle against the virus. If these anti-science types were not in power, they would be limited to angry comments online or even protests, yes, both these have the potential for damage, but nothing like what can be done when they are in power.

Curious in that study about it not undermining the social status quo. You've got to think all that blame being misplaced onto certain groups/individuals greatly increases the likelihood of armed conflict.

I really think humanity has not advanced to the point where we, as a species, can cope with the level of inter-connectivity available to us. The information has overwhelmed our ability to process it.

"Vic Local doesn't do shades of grey."
Not True AndyM, I just don't tolerate crackpot conspiracy theories and racism that is a danger to people's health. That toxic shit is rampant in the USA, and what a fucking mess that place is in because of nutter opinions.
Asking "what happens if we don't find a vaccine" is a pointless question. The current response to the virus should be the same whether or not scientists find a virus in 2022. That's a best case scenario timeline. I'm staggered that some people here still push this idea that the virus isn't that bad. Look at the countries where that attitude is strongest. USA and Brazil. Saying Australia should adopt that approach is a very hard argument to maintain.

"Consider some of the events in the US - Conservatives refused or were unwilling to introduce legislation to mandate the use of face masks. They have cited various, completely unscientific and false concepts regarding this issue, completely ignoring the expert medical advice available to them. Their anti-science stance has arguably considerably hindered their countries struggle against the virus. If these anti-science types were not in power, they would be limited to angry comments online or even protests, yes, both these have the potential for damage, but nothing like what can be done when they are in power."

the WHO and governments across the world (including many left wing governments) were pushing the very same lines just months, if not weeks ago. I think the WHO are still pushing it, they are so bogged down by their prior ridiculousness

there's your crisis in belief of science and crackpots finding whatever reality they desire right there

unfuckingbelievable

@Sypkan

Not having a go at you, but curious where you heard or read that?

I was curious and googled "will covid 19 just disappear" and the first page had a few articles from fairly reliable sources stating it won't just go away or burn out.

Fuck for a minute i kind of had some hope, I'm over this Covid crap.

Fair points JQ.

And as for "I really think humanity has not advanced to the point where we, as a species, can cope with the level of inter-connectivity available to us. The information has overwhelmed our ability to process it."

Agreed, and some say that it's intentional to a degree, that this barrage of news and opinion is the new propaganda, too dense and overwhelming to process and discuss.

Well played Indo-Dreaming.
And that's how everyone should approach this topic. Go find a range of experts and listen to them.
Speculating that the virus might just go away, hoping it will "die out to background levels like many others we've forgotten about" with zero evidence to back up this suggestion, makes you look a bit silly sypkan.
Fuck I hope nobody takes you seriously sypkan and decides to ignore medical advice re social distancing. May as well just push Nanna off a cliff.

they seem to run out of steam or we learn to manage them rather than vaccine them. aids is a prime example, no vaccine, but it affects a lot less people and is a lot less devastating now than when it first burst onto the scene. we avoid them and medicate the virus better, reducing the shock to body and systems

I've heard heaps of crew talk about it on abc

having said that, this virus does seem to have unique qualities that will probaby mean it is much more of a burden

most media seem to avoid talking of the possibility/probability of not finding a vaccine, too depressing and confronting I suspect

hysterical again

No Sypkan, left wing governments and the WHO were not pushing the same lines. Their concerns at the time were about maintaining supply for healthcare workers, who need this PPE the most.

Contrast this with the US Conservatives reasoning:

"A Republican Ohio state representative cited his religious beliefs to explain why he would not wear a mask as recommended by Gov. Mike DeWine (R) to help limit the spread of the novel coronavirus.

“This is not the entire world,” state Rep. Nino Vitale wrote in a lengthy Facebook post on Monday morning. “This is the greatest nation on earth founded on Judeo-Christian Principles.”

“One of those principles is that we are all created in the image and likeness of God. That image is seen the most by our face. I will not wear a mask,” he continued."

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/496086-gop-ohio-state-lawmaker-...

The WHO's reasoning some months ago on the matter:

"The World Health Organization has warned that severe and mounting disruption to the global supply of personal protective equipment (PPE) – caused by rising demand, panic buying, hoarding and misuse – is putting lives at risk from the new coronavirus and other infectious diseases. "

..."shortages are leaving doctors, nurses and other frontline workers dangerously ill-equipped to care for COVID-19 patients"...

https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/03-03-2020-shortage-of-personal-pro...

The shortage of masks appears to no longer be a significant factor, hence the advice has changed.

Thanks for the response VL.

Stay in lockdown / stimulus till 2022, 2025, 2030.......whatever it takes.

Good luck with that

(Don’t forget if stimulus doesn’t accompany lockdown, millions of Aussies starve to death, or to be realistic, hit poverty)

It took what, 20, 30? years to get to the point where we are with AIDS now. Killed lots of people along the way.

Sure, I guess it 'might' go away. But to act, behave and form policy on this belief is utterly idiotic. Until we know for sure, we must act with great care and take every effort to suppress transmission.

To label someone as 'hysterical' for disagreeing with the - completely without factual base - concept that it will just disappear is really quite silly at this point. It is anything but hysterical, it's prudent. It's what mature adults who put science and reason ahead of ideology would and are doing.

yep, they lied to us, to create a reality to cover up their faith in a failing system

crisis of confidence developing

listen to the scientists you say

this time

people are allowed to believe what they want jq

it seems half the US is religious of the nutty variety, he represents those people. we call it democracy

its viclocal who's hysterical

you are quite reasonable

Nice post JQ.
Do you want to admit you got the mask situation very wrong sypkan and try and maintain what little credibility you have left? Or are you going to try and bluff your way out of this?
Shoredump. In terms of the longevity of lockdown, I can definitely see a situation where parts of the country go in and out of lockdown depending on infection rates. Those infection rates are largely determined by the collective behaviour of individuals. We have a very easy choice. 1, Listen to the experts, practice social distancing, adopt good hygiene, don't go to work sick, isolate if necessary and enjoy the benefits of economic recovery, or 2, just ignore the medical experts and watch people die and suffer the economic consequences.
Unfortunately the majority of under 30s seem to be taking option 2.

do please explain how i got the mask situation wrong viclocal?

I take a different slant to jq, but we're generally agreeing on the facts

"the WHO and governments across the world (including many left wing governments) were pushing the very same lines (as US conservatives) just months"
This is where you got the facts completely wrong.
The WHO were saying the general public should not where masks because health professionals should have priority over the very limited supply. When PPE supplies increased, the WHO changed their position.
The nutter conservatives in the US were saying people shouldn't wear masks because the virus wasn't serious, impinged on people's rights and weren't needed due to religious reasons. Despite a massive increase in the supply of PPE, the nutter conservatives in the USA are still anti-mask.
To say these two groups were running the "same lines" is patently false.

Mate is on a autoimmune drug trial which hopefully will extend his life, they are also running a Covid vaccine trial out of the same building / group.

In discussions they were saying the vaccine is so far ticking all the boxes and are fairly confident of its out come.

Time line is still some time away.

Trump ~ the virus struck

https://m.

my point was, the science, institutions, and governments - left and right - have been pushing all kinds of bullshit for months, and only in the last few weeks have any of them even started to talk any sense re. wearing face masks

the WHO change and manipulate 'the evidence' to suit an agenda. massaging the science to create a reality to cover their arse and not look ridiculous, too little too late many would say...

ffs a heap of doctors wrote them a letter telling them they were being ridiculous and need to get their shit together, much like the harper's letter, its pure desperation that drives people to do stuff like that

"Long after most nations urged their citizens to wear masks, and after months of hand-wringing about the quality of the evidence available, the World Health Organization on Friday endorsed the use of face masks by the public to reduce transmission of the coronavirus.

Since the beginning of the pandemic, surprisingly, the W.H.O. had refused to endorse masks. The announcement was long overdue, critics said, as masks are an easy and inexpensive preventive measure."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/05/health/coronavirus-masks-who.html

yes it was about saving ppe (we found out later, belatedly, begrudgingly...) because they had fucked up, a liitany of fuck ups actually, but it was non sensical science being peddle to suit an agenda

they lied, it was bad irresponsible dangerous information, that now they are having a super hard time walking back from

glad I didn't listen to them travelling through indo jan and march,, so glad, cunts put people in danger

https://m.

.

VL I can see us losing control of this over many parts of the country simultaneously over many multiple waves. Much like a small scale America. I see it as a long game.
Option 1 is idealistic, unfortunately, because as you noted plenty of people don’t wanna play ball, especially when times are good.
You wont beat it because of this.
It’s hard enough to get Richmond to work as a team, or even the swellnet gallery, let alone all of Australia.

There’s people escaping quarantine, the most obviously necessary of times to co operate. That’s the unfortunate reality of your team

If I’m right, in that we can’t / won’t defeat a highly contagious virus, then the long term financial realities come into play, putting further pressure on lock down, which in turn helps CV spread some more.

Bit if a pessimistic cycle I can see playing out I know, but that’s why I think we have to work with what we’ve got, and accept it’s here. Lockdowns haven’t reached their expiry date yet, but that day is coming

3000 annual road deaths
65,000 attempted suicides
Smoking, heart disease, global warming
All preventable

There’s a lot more going on than just cv

And let’s be fair, using the c word to describe the reckless behaviour that has caused you so much personal grief, is a vent you are justified in. Just don’t forget the first links in the chain of events that caused all this. Firstly the CCP then secondly the locals who didn’t comply with social distancing and good hygiene.
It is what it is.
But what it isn’t is racist.
Anyway let’s not open that can of worms any further

"...the left are just as heavily into conspiracy theories"

This is simply not true. The left wing conspiracy nutters are a tiny minority who do not exert any political influence at all. The right wing nutters are currently in charge of the US, UK, Brazil, The Phillipines, Australia and much of Central Europe. So while our chemtrail spotters have been harmlessly wasting their time watching the sky the RWNJs have prevented action on climate change, dismantled public health and education systems and concentrated wealth in ever fewer hands. Equating them is like comparing a white shark to a goldfish on the basis that they are both fish.
But thanks for the perfect display of the standard right wing style of argument ........take a complex argument, find a trivial exception and use it to try and undermine the original premise without actually addressing the central issues. So here is a little example of what happens when you have an RWNJ in power.
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2020/07/08/the-pro-privatization-shock-the...

"So here is a little example of what happens when you have an RWNJ in power." (link is UK and Boris mishandling of Covid-19)

So is Scomo and the liberals right wing or not?

All you left leaning people are always telling me Australia is controlled by right wing Murdoch media and that the liberals and Scomo etc are right wing.

But Australia has handled this Covid-19 thing better than almost any other country.

BTW. Isn't Sweden a left wing government? And they have also handled this Covid thing terribly, and only have a population of 10 million, so should have been able to handle things better than most countries.

Same with Spain, im pretty sure they have a left wing government and have also done terribly pop of 46 million so not small but not crazy big either.

And then there is Italy, also done terribly and seems to be left wing government.

I think you can find examples either way for bad and good management of this Covid thing for both right and left leaning governments.

Possibly easier to find examples of RWG mismanagement though because the trend in recent years has been the election of governments or leaders to the right especially the bigger countries that no matter who is in power were always going to have much more trouble controlling this virus, more people, more entry points, denser populations, complexity of different states etc just more complex overall.

Indo, while I agree you can find examples of mismanagement across the spectrum, I would submit your "no matter who was in power" argument doesn't hold up, particularly in the USA, which leads in both infections and deaths, where Trump deliberately dismantled the pandemic response systems they had (which went back to Bush1), out of his childish rage at Obama. The Republicans helped him do it. I think had Covid happened under Obama the mistakes, and deaths, would have been far fewer in the USA. By the way, did you find out if Neanderthals are human?

Indo, true to form, you went straight back to the standard procedure. Find trivial examples and fail to address the real issue. A few points:
"Australia has handled this Covid-19 thing better than almost any other country."
Well maybe but more by luck than good governance. The pandemic in NSW was almost completely caused by the total incompetence of (cue the patriotic music) Border Force who allowed the Ruby Princess passengers to disembark when even the captain was telling them not to. Further after the bushfires the government knew they had better follow the scientific advice if they wanted to have any hope of getting re-elected. On that point, their performance in the recovery phase of the fires has been absolutely incompetent with thousands unable to access the funds that were donated to help them. In my area, work that could have been done by local contractors pretty much immediately after the fiires still has not been done because contracts were let to large companies who have been unable to mobilise sufficient resources. So if you want to suggest that this government is an exception to theusual RWNJ mix of inconpetence and parasitism, you are wrong. They have fucked up on almost every major issue and are riddled with corruption (Hi Angus!).

@ Adam.

Im not going to try to defend Trump i don't think he has done a very good and he always try to shift blame or create distractions and just said some dangerous and weird things (the bleach thing and encouraging anti malarial's just two examples)

But no one can say things would have been better under Obama or anyone else, well you can but its just an opinion, it just not something you can prove or disprove, because firstly you don't know how they would have handled things and secondly it's all bigger than Trump and comes down to different provinces/states and their leaders just like it does in Australia.

IMHO USA was always going to be hit bad, just the huge population and huge movement of people internationally to and from USA and within USA, but maybe more importantly the culture of not wanting to be controlled or do as the government or authority's says...opposed to the culture in say Taiwan, South Korea or even China where people are more obedient to government and government can use harsher methods of controlling outbreaks that in USA wouldn't be seen as acceptable.

In regard to "did you find out if Neanderthals are human?"

Obviously you didn't click the link i provided.

Yes some would like to lump Hom sapiens and Homo Neanderthals in to the same species, but they havent been they are still regarded as difference species.

So no Neanderthals are not human Neanderthals (Homo neanderthal) are an extinct species different to humans (Homo sapiens) closely related but they are two different species that belong to the same genus.

Most Homo sapiens today actually have a tiny bit of Homo neanderthal DNA as we bred with them at some stage, however most people from the Africa don't have any Homo neanderthal DNA.

BTW. Homo neanderthal & Homo denisovans are closer related than Homo sapiens to Homo neanderthal and again Homo sapiens from some regions mostly Melanesians share a tiny bit of Homo denisovans DNA.

Actually interesting stuff to read about.

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-neanderthals-same-species-as-us.html

https://www.theverge.com/2017/10/9/16448412/neanderthal-stone-age-human-...

Not sure neanderthals can be so easily dismissed as non-human indo...
plenty of archeological evidence that they possessed linguistic, planning & abstract thought abilities on par with homo sapiens. Plus dna evidence in modern humans that suggest extensive/widespread interbreeding between pre-historic homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis (also homo denisova in some areas). Wouldn't be far-fetched to suppose some portion of that would have been consensual; i.e. neanderthals were able to communicate with homo sapiens. Plus the fact that dna was passed down the millenia shows how closely related they were to us (unlike chimeras like the liger that aren't able to breed).
What more would you need for them to be classed as human?
(edit, I'm not suggesting that they're the same biological species, more arguing for a wider definition of humanity than "belonging to the species homo sapiens")