Interesting stuff
That's drawing a long bow. In the simplest, domestic terms recognising historical "misdeeds" is at the heart of the Australian Indigenous Treaty. Current living individuals who get offended by a written expression of the past, to shape a better future are the most pathetic of the lot. Period.
"I reckon what's more pathetic is being coerced in to being ashamed of your skin colour as some sort of moral justification for past misdeeds."
Wow, what a staggering misread.
Who the fuck is saying white people should be ashamed of their skin colour? Absolutely no- fucking - body.
I saw it pretty regularly at uni, self-flagellation and “I’m just a white person with no culture”.
Well intentioned though.
Kinda feel like watching the Blues Brothers Guy- classic movie.
Hey Guy, in regards to what you asked recently, i chatted to my mum and this is what happened for what it was worth.
Apparently my Auntie was friends with the girls mum. They're actually half sisters and mum lead a pretty tragic life, often go walkabout for days weeks at a time. In that time the girls would be left with them. They were only little and a kinda cute story, one would sleep in a cot and the other in an open suitcase. Anyway, mums absences got longer and longer and she basically 'gave' the girls to my Uncle and Aunt who proceeded to raise them side by side with their kids. To formalise it, my Uncle applied for full custody until some government department got wind of it and tried to put a stop to it going ahead. You'll have to excuse me as my mum is getting on so I can only recount the story as told by her. So, it became a little messy as my Uncle and Aunt had been raising the girls for a few years now, put them in school and basically the Dept. of whatever thought it was not in the interests of the girls to be brought up with them.
Long story short, the judge sided with my Uncle and Aunt and they were awarded full custody of the girls after this dragged on for a few years. The girls grew up in a happy, loving, stable environment and have gone on to be happy, well adjusted members of society. As an aside, my Uncle encouraged them to never lose sight of their roots and they are still in contact with their mob in so far that after my Uncle and Aunt passed, they've moved back to the Newman area to be closer to them. One of them is very well travelled and I think she's been to every continent bar Antartica. Her good mate is from Finland. The other is shit scared of planes and a bit of a homebody. Has a nice little side hustle with he Aboriginal art.
The girls are in their mid-thirties now, their real mum passed away quite a long time ago. Sadly, they never knew their fathers but Uncle Big Sam was always dad. They are very sad at my dads passing because they adore mum and dad and they them. I'm happy to say, they chat to mum over the phone every couple of weeks.
So, I haven't seen them face to face in years but when we go to Oz next, we plan to to visit WA. I will certainly introduce my wife to them.
To close, this is why I have mixed thoughts on the stolen generation. These two full blood girls were given to my family and they were lovingly received. I don't know what to make of it.
Edit- poorly worded- my Auntie- whitey, the girls mum, full blood first Aussie, the girls- same.
White people acknowledging the racist misdeeds of their colonising ancestors does not involve being ashamed of being white. I wholeheartedly acknowledge that my ancestors mistreated indigenous people and I sympathise with indigenous people who still suffer the repercussions of colonialism, but I’ve never felt ashamed of being white, nor do I feel that I’ve been shamed for being white.
I dunno Vic, when it comes to putting words in other peoples mouths, not many can hold a candle to you.
And neither do I OTF.
I'm with OTF, I don't have to feel ashamed of my skin colour to acknowledge the misdeeds of my ancestors, nor do I feel as though anyone is trying to do this.
I definitely feel as though there is a small cohort of people who would like me to feel persecuted over this though.
Zen, I understand your mixed feelings about The Stolen Generations. I also know of cases in which “half-caste” children had a better life after being removed from their families, but I’ve also come across other cases in which the removal was totally unjustified and the children suffered. With the benefit of hindsight, I think there were better ways of protecting the welfare of children that did not involve forcibly removing them, but it’s too late now; the damage is done and we have to acknowledge the wrongdoing without feelings of guilt.
Disagree JQ, especially with your choice of words. Maybe replace persecuted with resented? I think this whole us and them thing doesn't move anybody forward, I think it breeds resentment.
Yeah, I agree Zen. We have to move on from this “us and them” mentality, but I don’t think it’ll happen in our lifetime.
OTF, these girls are not half-caste, they are full bloods.
And I'm not naive enough to think that in probably many many cases that being raised by white people may not have been in the best interests of the children despite the best of intentions, and in many cases it has probably been devastating. Kind of like an identity limbo. But, if you ask my cousins, in their situation, having two loving parents regardless of their different skin colour, has worked out ok for them.
Stu mentioned Abe Lincoln earlier. There is a group calling themselves The Lincoln Project and they have one aim and that is to make sure Trump is not re-elected. Thing is they are Republicans and used the same type of advertising against Obama and Clinton.
Watching the psychology behind the ads is fascinating, a bit like Gruen on steroids, the word plays and the tactics they use to get an idea across are brilliant. There’s some gold in amongst this lot
Far out, that's incredible. Just going through them all now.
First one....staggering. GOP-backed org backing Biden.
Geez! I think the hair stood up on the back of my neck! But it probably shouldn't have.....
I’ve only looked at a few so far but I got a laugh out of “Fellow Traveller” and “Shrinking”
The Republicans are going to turn on Trump as soon as it's obvious he can't deliver a White House win. The same thing happened to Rudd and Turnbull. Their respective parties tolerated them for only one reason, electability. As soon as that slips it's game over. Trump's going to get the Rudd / Turnbull treatment, just on steroids.
Wonder if anyone would ever make a statue of Trump?
And how long it might last.
Hey Zen, I've heard of many stories like that of your Uncle's and Aunty's. I think it was fairly common in the past, sort of informal and unspoken arrangements where mums gave up their kids to well meaning people with good hearts in the hope of a better life for there kids. This is precisely the place in time* VACCA emerged to work with mums, communities and with families informally and formally caring Aboriginal kids. To the best of my memory Auntie Molly Dwyer never saw these kids as stolen, she always acknowledged the love and care given to these children, but her focus was clear and in creating VACCA she worked very hard to foster Aboriginal children only with Aboriginal families.
* The historical context leading up to this period includes: the 1965 Freedom Ride; the 1967 referendum; the old (religion based) mission station structures breaking down coinciding with the call of self determination increasingly enabled by Government funding; and Gough Whitlam's 1975 first drafting of land rights legislation.
You're exactly right Guy. I think a lot of people draw comparisons of the stolen generation with something evil and as misguided as it may have been, I think the intention was far less than that. You see this is where I find it hard to comprehend- were they trying to anglocise (is that a word?) these kids, or were they trying to simply give these kids a start? I don't know. There's no question that these kids would have been better off in stable, loving homes with their own parents, but back then, what did the people responsible for removing these kids see as an alternative? To what degree did they justify their decisions? Was it as simple as black fella bad, white fella good or was it to remove these kids from genuine harm?
Of course I bring an overly simplistic view of it, but if it wasn't for the great work of Molly Dwyer and her successors, where would these kids be today? The fact that the parents also needed support in concert with the kids was the first step on what is a long journey.
Zen, I see the stolen generations as children who were forcibly removed from their families as a result of government actions and/or polices. Policies that specifically aimed to remove culture from the young to make them better able to cope or take their place in white society, to bring them into the modern world. Enter mission stations. I see your extended family example as something all together different, your aunty was known and trusted by the girls' mum and the final care arrangement evolved over a period of time. Perhaps there will be a time and place for you in the future to discuss with the girls themselves.
I hope so Guy.
Worth considering.
More than 150 writers, academics and artists, including major names such as Martin Amis, Noam Chomsky, Salman Rushdie, Steven Pinker, Malcolm Gladwell and Gloria Steinem have decried what they call “a new set of moral attitudes and political commitments that tend to weaken our norms of open debate and toleration of differences in favour of ideological conformity”, as well as denouncing a “ vogue for public shaming and ostracism”.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jul/08/jk-rowling-rushdie-and-atw...
about bloody time!!!
or...
too little too late?
The pendulum has to swing I suppose.
Maybe we can shame and ostracise those who shame and ostracise - all on social media of course ;)
"Wonder if anyone would ever make a statue of Trump?"
Surely he's already made one for his own courtyard?
Ahem...
The inscription should read I am the greatest cockwomble ever.
Trump statue? Ask and ye shall receive and be careful what you ask for....,
I think the pendulum swung long ago
yet the shame and ostacisation continues...
with the shamers and ostracisors often shaming and ostacising themselves... oblivious to the pendulum...
the irony of this so called 'culture war', is the toxic culture ain't coming from the usual quarters. its the culture of a bubbledom, rabid, ravanous, and reactionary, scrambling for claimed contested grounds, a culture of non negotiable righteouness and dogma, built on very shaky foundations
sounds like religon
a religon with fascistic tendencies
sounds great
Sypkan at its core do you thunk the culture war is the tension between the collective and individual? I’m not sure myself but interested in your view.
not sure what you mean guysmiley, you might need to elaborate on this '...tension between the collective and the individual...'
I see the culture war as a bunch of extremist minorities from both sides muddying the fountain of hope for the collective
politics as usual to a certain extent I guess, its just the extremes have become so extreme
the culture wars bloomed from the seed of "social" media, imo
the facebook algorithm is a noxious weed strangling decent social intercourse *snigger* pushing people to extremes and diminishing any common ground
well, that's my uninformed opinion from the outside looking in, never been on their dodgy platform, could just be coincidence that things have gone downhill since they've been around
"I see the culture war as a bunch of extremist minorities from both sides muddying the fountain of hope for the collective"
That may be true for Australia, but it's gone way beyond that in the USA, a country that has been fighting the culture war a lot longer than Australia.
The next civil war in the USA won't be geographical. There won't be a mason Dixon line. It's a battle of information, and on one side you have people who accept science and knowledge, and the other side is basically a cult filled with deplorable conspiracy theorists lead by a madman.
I hope Australia never gets to that stage, so it might be a very good time to reject the racists, reject the conspiracy theories, reject the anti-science crackpots, reject the grifters at News Limited, and invest in education, experts, facts and independent public broadcasting.
So how bad is it over in the USA? I have a friend who is an economic dry and a social progressive. Despite his conservative leanings, he wears a mask, because he bases his decisions on evidence. My mate gets regularly abused by the nutters and called a commie, sheeple, socialist, anti-American etc when he goes out in public. And that's in a more progressive city. That's our future in Australia if we let the nutters win the culture war.
Says arguably the most intolerant person known to frequent this website.
Unless of course you agree with his version of the 'facts'.
social media has certainly steroided things up, as it reduces everything to an either / or gotcha meme. incredibly complex issues, diminished to a public display of... 'you're either with us, or against us...'
with the most toxic of toxic outpourings for anyone wishing to raise any semblance of nuance
"...The next civil war in the USA won't be geographical. There won't be a mason Dixon line. It's a battle of information, and on one side you have people who accept science and knowledge, and the other side is basically a cult filled with deplorable conspiracy theorists lead by a madman."
The next civil war is already here, and has been for some time. yes its a country wide battle of information, in an age of info overload, ....and your answer is to censor it!? ...the rest is just horse shit
there's more than any one cult that rejects science and knowledge when it suits them, plenty of madmen too
"...I hope Australia never gets to that stage, so it might be a very good time to reject the racists, reject the conspiracy theories, reject the anti-science crackpots, reject the grifters at News Limited, and invest in education, experts, facts and independent public broadcasting."
I am, ...you're part of it my rejection
"...So how bad is it over in the USA? I have a friend who is an economic dry and a social progressive. Despite his conservative leanings, he wears a mask, because he bases his decisions on evidence. My mate gets regularly abused by the nutters and called a commie, sheeple, socialist, anti-American etc when he goes out in public. And that's in a more progressive city. That's our future in Australia if we let the nutters win the culture war."
Yeh nah. you really do see everything so very black and white
ironically enough, or not...
Ah sypkan, so sure and yet...so wrong.
"the irony of this so called 'culture war', is the toxic culture ain't coming from the usual quarters. its the culture of a bubbledom, rabid, ravanous, and reactionary, scrambling for claimed contested grounds, a culture of non negotiable righteouness and dogma, built on very shaky foundations"
No the toxic crap comes overwhelmingly from the right wing bullshit mine. They dig it up and spread it around on the basis of that well known Psych 101 phenomena; the more often you repeat a lie, the more likely people (well some people) are to believe it. So the toxic crap takes hold with the easily impressed and the profoundly ignorant while those whose vested interests it represents fund trolls across social media to spread it further.
So on the right we have vested interest on the left we have public interest. On the right we have rabid anti-science (climate deniers, anti-vaxxers, 5G conspiracists) on the left we have the precisely detailed work of millions of professional scientists. On the right we have neo-Nazi boot boys and their fellow travellers. On the left we have Antifa, Black Lives Matter and Extinction Rebellion. On the right we have corporate parasites lobbying governments to deliver ever greater wealth to ever fewer people. On the left we have calls for economic fairness and greater equity. On the right we have the kind of toxic libertarianism encouraging policies that have directly caused hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths. On the left we have calls for epidemiological expertise. Which side are you on?
The first I heard of cultural wars was during Howard's prime ministership. He and his ministers were often quoted as calling it "the battle of ideas".
But his conservative views on social issues were well known even before he became PM e.g. he strenuously opposed the Mabo and Wik decisions saying it would end agriculture and mining in this country. He also actively opposed the natural social progression in the accurate telling (and teaching) of Aboriginal history. In that context his governments oversaw the deliberate winding back of the school curriculum that were starting to accurately tell Australian history warts and all to the return of the traditional terra nullius British colonisation was good version.
Howard also amped up Australia and Anzac Days to front of the nation's mind occasions when they had previously been dying a slow death and (in)famously tried to own the judgement on what was Australian and UnAustralian.
He rewrote the marriage act because real Australians blokes don't marry blokes.
Some one might wish to correct me here but I reckon it was that most unflushable turd of Australian politics JWH that started the cultural wars ball rolling here.
Reactionaries acting against the now and the future yearning for the good old days of King and country.
"So on the right we have vested intest on the left we have public interest. On the right we have rabid anti-science (climate deniers, anti-vaxxers, 5G conspiracists) on the left we have the precisely detailed work of millions of professional scientists."
Um BB its really not a left-right thing the left are just as heavily into conspiracy theories and anti vaxing, maybe even more so just think of the whole new age type movement that is mostly people from the left, i have friends that are far left type people, very alternative into alternative medicine, anti government, anti capitalism, anti mainstream media, heavily into conspiracy theories, ant 5G anti vaxers etc
I doubt this group is full of right wingers "Byron bay surfers against Chemtrails" ha ha absolute gold and 1, 317 members tempted to join just to see what they say https://www.facebook.com/groups/Bryonbaysurfers/
This idea that the right is anti science and left pro science is BS, you can find examples both ways for what every view you want to paint, plenty of left wing scientist, plenty of right wing scientist.
I mean FFS the left and their identity politics much of of it is super anti science and based on ideals/feelings rather than science.
Imagine a left and right wing archaeologist doing a dig somewhere, they dig up some skeleton remains, the bones are inspected and a DNA analyst done etc.
The right wing archaeologist then says okay the results are in, what we have here is a women in her 30's and the DNA shows she is of South American decent but also a tiny bit of DNA from Middle East region.
So we can say she is female of South American decent.
But then the left wing archaeologist could say.
How dare you call them by "She", that might not be the correct pronoun they prefer, we can't call them female we don't know how they identified they might have identified as male and also might have identified with that small bit of DNA that goes back to the middle east region.
We are just going to have to say the person was human as they might have identified as "middle eastern male" so we don't have enough information to label things further.
As to which the right wing archaeologist replies okay whatever keeps you left wing archaeologist happy, oh BTW. there is actually a tiny bit of Neanderthal DNA too, so can we still call them human?
God i really hope the left havent twisted science this much though...but who knows maybe one day it will go this far..
Neanderthals were humans. Learn some history Indo.
Did you just make that up Indo?
Kinda funny but not at all unbelievable.
And I agree with your post. BB, do you really think antivaxxers, climate deniers, 5G and conspiracy theorists are the sole domain of the politically leaning right? Think you might be dreaming a little there cobber.
Semantics Adam.
Would it make you happier if he said Homo-erectus?
"Neanderthals were humans. Learn some history Indo."
Really? ...I dont know that much about it but thats nit my understanding...will have a read now
Im pretty sure same genus (Homo) but different species.(Sapiens or Neanderthals)
Apparently most humans (homo sapiens) have a tiny bit of Neanderthal DNA (Homo Neanderthals) but apparently Africans don't.
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/are-neanderthals-same-species-as-us.html
@ Zen
Yeah just made it up, obviously just taking the piss, but you never know.
BTW IMHO. this conspiracy theory, 5G, anti Vaxer, not believing mainstream media type thing, just seems to be more inclined with anyone that is far right or far left circles.
Glad that Vic Local and ol' Laurie have been called out for their "only the Right are anti-science" nonsense.
"education, experts [and] facts" are being soundly rejected by the "left", dragging us deeper into a mire of bullshit where, whether for money or for ideology or both, people make up their own reality.
Gonna be real hard for humans to shape a future based on anything sensible and universally beneficial.
Andy, you might be right that anti-science isn't purely a right wing thing. How ever, there are plenty of anti-science conservatives sitting in positions of power, can you name one left wing anti-science person in a position of power.
You may point to these anti-vax / chemtrails etc etc types, and yes, they probably hold a lot of progressive views, but who is representing this in parliament? No one I can think of, maybe Malcolm Roberts at a stretch, but it'd be some impressive mental gymnastics to classify him as left wing.
"education, experts [and] facts" are being soundly rejected by the "left"
Citation please, and not some nutjob on a facebook group. Someone with responsibility.
You're setting up a strawman argument.
I agree with what you're saying re: politics, however I'm saying that where the left would ideally be holding the ground of rational discussion, an increasing percentage of it is "dragging us deeper into a mire of bullshit where, ... people make up their own reality."
A citation?
Really?
Open your eyes.
Just because I love you like a brother.
"Voters on the extreme left and right are far more likely to believe in conspiracy theories"
Right wing - because it suits their desire for money e.g. rejecting climate change
Left wing - for ideology, fashion and whatever e.g. vaccinations, sunscreen, shapeshifting lizard aliens,
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/61732/1/blogs.lse.ac.uk-Voters%20on%20the%20ext...
In all sincerity, have a look at this Dutch/Swedish study published in the Journal of Social and Political Psychology and download the PDF.
Quite fascinating.
Again, it confirms that, in Sweden at least, centrists are less likely to believe in conspiracy theories.
"In general, Swedes who associate with a far-left ideology are more likely to endorse conspiracy theories than those with a far-right ideology, albeit both groups are
more prone to conspiracy beliefs than centrists."
You've missed my point there Andy, I don't deny that such people exist on the fringes of the left and right - my assertion is that these far left, anti-science people are not in positions of power. The right wing equivalents are! They are in government right now!
Again, you're setting up a strawman.
I've never disputed that, I'm saying that a growing acceptance of nonsense by the Left is making it harder to maintain cogent arguments and call the Right to account.
You seem to be trying to create an argument where there is none.
Hope you've been getting some waves.
Have it cunts