Death penalty for terrorists

Oh for sure , Indo.

But the specific point of the article is that we are ALL guilty. And it’s an idea perpetuated by the majority of news and associated editorial.

Is their a ring of truth to it ?

If there is , then theres an equal amount of truth to the fact that Islam is fomenting a sinister side. Yet it’s a concept of debate which is now verboten .

Pointy states 'any society that imposes the death penalty is no better than those people that the death penalty is imposed on'

Just about choked on my Weeties when I read this utter nonsense (predictably supported by Bb, sheepshagger, etc).

Ridding society of such people protects society from future acts of terror on their release from jail, saving potentially thousands of innocent lives (not to mention the $m's required to keep them in jail). I would prefer not to have my loved ones put at risk if it means ending the life of someone who, by their heinous crime, has forfeited their right to exist.

Well thats the thing....if you are going to say all white people are responsible for white supremacist and their actions, then whats the difference in someone saying all muslims are responsible for the actions of radical muslims?

It obviously just doesn't work that way, because neither are responsible for the other.

To misquote Paul Simon :

“ Why is my surfboard so soft in the middle when the rest of my life is so hard “

I briefly got out of the car to load in a bar fridge. Big mistake. Now I’m blooded and all I see everywhere I look is surfboards and board covers and fishing gear and tools and plants and cool Knick knacks......none of which I need but all of which I want.

Get me the fuck out of here.

indo , if you are scared by the look of someone there is a deep seated reason why you are scared.....stereotyping someone based on their own experiences comes from fear , so as we debate/discuss each others opinions/observations , a pattern arises and your is quite clear , based on your own experience 's you like or dislike , fear or fear not the idea or issue before you but based on your experience.
The whole idea of a God and/or another entity that has command over your life , seem unpalatable to you and your comments on religion /race reflect fear of not having control of your life , or the fear of you thinking you might lose control of your space on the planet !
As far as Christians go , not believing/reading the Bible , means you are not a Christian....bit like me using the NZ tragedy to stereo type all white Australians as white supremacists......using examples of some so called Christians and their behaviour and then judging all real Christians by a minority behaviour......

Sharkman

Why do i even need to argue that i would keep my distance from a huge skin head nazi dude with a business called white power? (especially when i was an 18-19 year grommet at the time i was drinking in the pub when he would.

Nobody in their right mind would not be fearful of such a looney...why are you even trying to argue this with me about it????

With all respect you have kind of lost me with the rest of the comment, but i don't need religion in my life to be fulfilled or be in control.

And it's not really for me or you to say if someone is Christian or Muslim or not just because they may or may not read the bible or koran or it's up to them to decide if they are Christian or Muslim, it's about beliefs.

I don't fear the of followers of religions unless they are full on into the religion like radical islamist, i fear the religion itself and that the followers will take the religion for what it is with Christianity it's really not an issue because as I've said the aim is to convert but if no success in conversation or someone chooses to leave christianly or blasphemy there is no consequence other than the believe that they will go to hell.

With Islam that is not the case its called Apostasy and under law is still technically punishable by death in 13 countries. (because the koran states non believers or those opposed to Islam should be killed)

Are you cool with that? (even just being an atheist)

And yes there are people in Australia who believe this should be the case go the 8:00 minute mark

Countries where still punishable by death https://www.indy100.com/article/the-countries-where-apostasy-is-punishab...

more info https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-o...

Thankfully it doesn't included Indonesia, but if you didn't follow the Ahok blasphemy thing in Indonesia a year or two ago, maybe go read up about it, and see what he actually said to end up in Jail, and this is the leader of Jakarta we are talking about.

I’ve only dipped my toes in the Crikey waters recently , they’ve failed to impress on the most part.

This article is slightly more redemptive with its nuance.

https://www.crikey.com.au/2019/03/18/brenton-tarrant-christchurch-narrat...

Right up until the final paragraph that is - “As violent Islamic terror fades in the West, the greatest threat we now face is hard-right terror, successively refining its methods, swimming like a fish in the sea of a racist political culture engineered by the right.”

Has violent Islamic terrotism faded in the West ? Of course not . But the attacks have occurred so regularly and for so long , that their incidence has lost any cultural cache . The media no longer values them and so a new interest is generating the debates which pays the bills and the narrative can be now scripted towards a threat which has replaced that of Islamic terrorism.

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/europe-attacks.aspx

I was personally hoping that the response to the attack in N.Z. would lead to a resurgence in debate about the West’s military presence in the Middle East. This is the cause of any justification for Islamic attacks on the West.

People dying in the Middle East , people dying in the West needlessly.

End the wars. Get our soldiers out and then assess the situation for what else it may take the shape of. Indo was right , it’s tit for tat.

After reading the N.Z. loser’s manifesto, it seems clear that the he might have remained disgruntled at his belief that Western nation’s were being colonised by other cultures, but the violence which he has sown and justified as a revenge for Islamic terrorist attacks probably would not have occurred.

D rex writes - "Just about choked on my Weeties when I read this utter nonsense (predictably supported by Bb, sheepshagger, etc).

Ridding society of such people protects society from future acts of terror on their release from jail, saving potentially thousands of innocent lives (not to mention the $m's required to keep them in jail)."

Fact - 1 in 25 executed in the USA are later found to be innocent. Not bad odds, unless its Derrr rex thats the 1 in 25.
Fact - nothing is stopping derrrr rex from moving to a country that has the death penalty - China, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, Malaysia, Bangladesh, and some USA states. Give us a call when you've settled in.
Fact - The AVERAGE cost of a death penalty conviction is $1 260 000 USA.
With prisons now privatised in the USA, and corporations using prisoner labour, keeping a prisoner can be profitable for shareholders. Whether making money for private companies instead of money for victims of crime is another ethical debate, you, Derrrrr Rex, are an idiot.

Here's Blowin generalising about asylum seekers last year-

"You forgot Port Hedland , where a summer surf trip only a few short years ago could have seen your skull crushed with large lumps of concrete specially selected for this very task by the poor asylum seekers housed at the detention centre.
A couple of employees there weren’t able to partake of the cyclone swells that year - and maybe for ever more - after the poor asylum seekers attempted to murder them by passing the lumps of concrete up onto the roof in a chain gang before raining them down with brute force and ultra violence onto anyone who happened to be in the vicinity at the time .
Attempted murder , media whitewashing and misplaced sympathy......Fun in the sun !"

Fact : Sheepdog’s pet hate is people saying “ Love it or leave it” . Yes, that’s what you e just said yourself , Sheepy.

Fact : No one is questioning the guilt of the N.Z. loser . He filmed himself doing it, so chance of executing an innocent person is zero.

Referring to specific incidents isn’t generalising, Sheepy.

No matter how hard you want it to be.

If you don’t want to hear the truth then block your ears , wont alter the fact that it happened.

Pretty funny guysmiley lost his shit over that tit for tat comment.
The very next day I heard labor senator, and terrorism expert, anne aly use those exact words on the radio, saying we absolutely have to talk about what's fuelling these attacks.

It's kind of irrelevant who started what, both sides can make a solid argument if they go far enough back into history. The problem is what's happening now, censoring the present reality will solve nothing. In fact it will probably backfire.

All this talk of stopping hate speech scares the hell out of me. It's so subjective, and so superficial. Besides, recent events have made one thing crystal clear, you cannot control what people think no matter how much you try and control the media narrative. The efforts to shut down trump just empowered his cause, same with brexit.

And, the thing that really scares me about controlling the internet is it's gonna be someone like guysmiley that gets the gig. FFS imagine that!

The genie is out of the bottle re. controlling the media narrative. This is the new reality. The left's been caught with their pants down. They either adjust to the new reality, or lose, it's as simple as that.

To be fair, some of those headlines people have posted from the murdoch press have no place on a professional media source. There must already be laws in place to kerb that shit. But just like the jounalists oath, it's not being enforced, both sides are peddling so much bullshit it's beyond belief!

Also, hanson should be sorted out one way or another for calling islam a disease, there's no place for that shit either. But the left has gone so over the top the other way people just shrug their shoulders

Blowin writes - "Fact : Sheepdog’s pet hate is people saying “ Love it or leave it” . Yes, that’s what you e just said yourself , Sheepy."

And how did that make you feel?

Your pet hate is having people try to change our way of life. Here's someone trying to stop our "no death penalty way of life", a culture older than the Australia day holiday, and you are white knighting him???? bahahahahahahaha.
Funny when the shoe is on the other foot, huh blowy?

Death Penalty Hypothetical.

If that recent NZ atrocity had of played out in a war zone setting & let’s say for example an Australian SAS soldier had managed to infiltrate & “neutralize” (kill) the enemy, deemed a courageous act, the Australian soldier could possibly be in line to receive a bravery medal & there would be no negative sentiment in regard to killing the enemy, in fact the opposite. A good outcome for humanity.

Contrast that with a similar act of “war” or “terror” which unfolds in a peace time setting (NZ) & the enemy/terrorist is taken alive. Yet the sentiment surrounding putting this territorist to death post the act, is considered inhumane & a backward step for society.

Maybe the above is too general, I’m not sure, but I hope you get my point.

Bringing in the death penalty wouldn’t change my way of life , but it’d certainly change the way of life of someone who’s just murdered 50 people.

Your attitude may have had another 10, 20, 30 killed, plus dead cops.

Okay , I’ll bite .....how Sheepy ?

In his manifesto, he said he didn't care if he was to live or die. He had plans for both scenarios. If a terrorists knows that he will be executed if caught alive, they will 99% of the time go down shooting. Now he was armed with military semi autos. Those 2 cops that stopped him had cap guns. If he knew that giving up was certain death , I'd say he would've taken those 2 cops down

Did you know that in countries that have the death penalty, more children and women are are slaughtered after being raped? It's because the vile sicko makes a snap decision to kill the ONLY WITNESS.
Do some study, Blowin.

Sheepy “ If a terrorists knows that he will be executed if caught alive, they will 99% of the time go down shooting. ”
Fact or guess?
Not having a go, honest question..

A common sense guess, goofy.. I suppose we could look at Chechen terrorist attacks in Russia. Check the data. Or Nigeria, And compare how many terrorists have surrendered in death penalty countries to non death penalty countries.
But it is a fact about rape victims being murdered MORE in death penalty countries

The cost of keeping known grubs alive is outrageous. Much better putting that money into hospitals and saving a few good souls

........... but if you factor in the legal cost of appeals all way to the High Court there is probably a marginal difference, if any. The real argument against the death penalty is not that vile criminals do not deserve it, it is that the process of administering does severe psychological damage. The suicide rate amongst executioners in the US has been extremely high historically.

I'll repeat what I wrote earlier to derrr rex

"Fact - 1 in 25 executed in the USA are later found to be innocent. Not bad odds, unless its Derrr rex thats the 1 in 25.
Fact - nothing is stopping derrrr rex from moving to a country that has the death penalty - China, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iraq, Malaysia, Bangladesh, and some USA states. Give us a call when you've settled in.
Fact - The AVERAGE cost of a death penalty conviction is $1 260 000 USA.
With prisons now privatised in the USA, and corporations using prisoner labour, keeping a prisoner can be profitable for shareholders. Whether making money for private companies instead of money for victims of crime is another ethical debate, "

Ok, fair points.
I’m guessing you don’t have a daughter. Because if you did, you could easily imagine what is the fair thing to do to if you were confronted by the worst case scenario.

I have a daughter and a grand-daughter and expect that I would want to murder anyone who did them harm, but that is very different from trying to write a law and establish procedures for the administration of the death penalty. Jacinta Arden had the right idea, lock them up forever and erase their identity.

Sure. So long as they lost their identity. But I believe the reality is they often get all kinds of avenues to manipulate and influence further

Yep. Lock them away for ever.... except not in solitary confinement. They can live in the prison community and spend every waking minute wondering when another prisoner will take exception at their wicked deeds.

No need to execute. Let the system work it out. Thats how it should be....simpler, cheaper, and effective.

Indo, where I grew up there were plenty of big white tatooed blokes , so I wouldn't be too worried by their look , you obviously grew up where big blokes like you described were not the "norm", so it still shows you stereo typing ,on the look of a person which is part of your fear....I grew to fear blackfellas as I was often bullied and picked on by a small majority of them.......when I left home went to Hawaii and realized blackfellas were actually fine , bigger than Australian blackfellas , but happy in there culture....which made me realize that Blackfellas in Australia were actually treated like shit....so didn't like white fellas for a long time...then you grow up travel and learn not to judge a book/human by it's cover......as we build up prejudices and judgmental behaviour over our lives , we then start stereotyping things that scare us and develop our moral conduct according to what we have seen and learnt.....
That's why people need religion or a higher power who can deliver a culture/lifestyle that we can all exist together......man doesn't do a great job , as you can see that not 1 civilization since the beginning of time has survived , and to think our current civilization will survive is the definition of insanity , as we make the same mistakes over and over again , learn very little , and just keep spiraling down while increasing debt and trashing our habitat....
Man has tried to build society's / cultures based on man views and not Gods.....Communist Russia/China/Eastern Bloc/Cambodia a couple of examples where man just keeps failing....don't blame Gods, or races , just inherent mans weakness and greed!

Happyass , how do you think Mr White Supremacist is doing in jail filled with Maoris , Samoans etc......just Mr W loose in their world......maybe they will butt treat him into becoming a white not so supremascist !!

.

Never thought I'd say this but sheepshagger has, perhaps for the first time ever, made some sense quoting US prison data (albeit from an unidentified source, maybe his shareholder's annual report from his US prison owner's company). Just a shame that it's completely irrelevant to what is happening in Australia's (and the rest of the world's) prisons.
Plus I like how he defends would-be murderers who rape women and children (not).

@Sharkman

All you have been trying to do is try to paint me as being in fear and not liking something or someone because i don't understand it.

This is just an easy way to write the things off that I've said, without actually considering i have points.

Like i said, i have muslim friends, extended family, lived in the biggest muslim population in the world, and have as great or greater understanding of islam than most Australians...so any fear i have of Islam is not from my lack of understanding of Islam, but actually because of my greater understanding of Islam, its the same reason the if you go on Youtube there is countless videos from X muslims most athesist pointing out all the faults of islam and problems it is creating.

The story about the white power dude, was just something i remembered that i hadn't thought about for 20 years, and the thought that someone could have a business named white power with a nazi type symbol even back then and still get business is pretty crazy.

Yes i feared the guy because of his looks and beliefs but my fear was just common sense of keeping my distance from such a looney, if i had an unfounded deeper fear i wouldn't have even been at the pub getting pissed in the first place.

Anyway how about we end the discussion on this here?, agree to disagree if we must.

In the past I've been a big supporter of the death penalty, but i think my views have changed a little over time, i can see the points of both sides, now i don't have strong feelings either way (well not today anyway)

Forgetting any moral issues i think when people try to argue the use or not many of the arguments are not so black and white and can be misleading.

One problem when comparing the death penalty is most countries that have the death penalty are developing countries with corrupt legal systems, bar yes Singapore and USA, but the USA is kind of pretty fucked up when it comes to guns and shootings and love of guns etc i don't think anything will ever stop them from shooting each other.

Sheepdog does have a point about gunman though, if they knew they would get death, whats the point of going down without a gun fight and getting shot there?

But terrorism is not just about gunmen, lets remember three of the Bali bombers got executed, fair stay say a great deal of Australians were happy to see this happen, including me.

And yes Shoredump also has a good point, in many countries locking them up does not stop their influence, unfortunately in some countries like Indonesia they can still have quite an influence from inside jail, i mean Abu Baker Bashir didnt get death because of lack of evidence etc and got a crappy jail sentence and i think he is now very close to getting out after a 15 year sentence, i think most can agree it would have been best to raid this scum from earth.

BTW. Singapore has also shown quite clearly how effective the death penalty can be used when implemented correctly in a decent legal system (yeah I'm sure someone will debate this) but Singapore is one of the safest countries in the world, lowest drug use etc, yes there is other factors like size that help this.

PS. It should also be noted, countless serous criminals have reoffended once released, but the death penalty is the only system with a zero reoffending rate.