Andrew Chan - Myuran Sukumaran

I'm against the Death Penalty. But the old saying you do the crime, do the time. Everybody gets upset about criminals in Australia not getting sentences that reflect their crime. Maybe Indo has it right. It's pretty clear about the penalties throughout SE Asia. Zero Tolerance worked in New York. I like the new guy Joko, one thing is his message is clear - crystal.

Guessing though Mick Keelty would do it differently, and Scott Rush's father.

I think that they should have been picked up on Aus.

I don't agree with the death penalty but I also have no problems with Indonesia having punishments in their country that they see fit to implement. It's not as though people don't know how strict most Asian countries are on drug traffickers.

I feel sorry for the parents and families of these guys, it must be very tough on them.

On the surface that Mick Keelty thing was absolutely shameless but we don't know the back story; probably sucking up to the Indonesians to get more co-operation on Terrorism after the Bali bombings. The Indonesians have a hard job countering the terrorist nut cases in their country but mostly they seem to be up for the challenge.

I'm really big on respecting the culture and beliefs of others even if I strongly disagree with some of the standard practices and beliefs. So, while I disagree with the death penalty here I respect (although uncomfortable) Indonesian's right to make their own laws. Sadly, here it seems Australians will be shot for being found guilty of an death penalty offence. I also have some mixed feelings about how these Australians have been in jail for 10 years to get to this; way too long, so maybe they should get extra time and be spared, but I have little knowledge on how their legal system works, it just seems too long.

Countering all that how was it that Bashir was released from jail even though he was found guilty of being connected to the Bali bombings? That seemingly massive inconsistency in Indonesian law needs to be explained to me.

While I respect the culture and beliefs of others I draw the line where cultural beliefs or barbaric legal punishments impinge on basic humanity. I have no respect for the cultural position of women in Wahhabi societies, I have no respect for the Saudi legal system killing people guilty of sorcery, I have no respect for a Chinese legal system that kills political dissenters and I have no respect for any legal system that equates drug crimes with the worst crimes punishable such as murder or rape. It doesn't make sense to me.

As for Mick Keelty, what a piece of shit, an interesting contrast is the Malaysian guy charged with murder and facing the death penalty in Malaysia who is currently being held in Australia but unlikely to be extradited because although we have an extradition treaty with Malaysia,"Australia's extradition legislation does not allow a person to be surrendered to another country for an offence punishable by death unless the country has given Australia an undertaking that the death penalty will not be carried out on the person"

silicun wrote:

While I respect the culture and beliefs of others I draw the line where cultural beliefs or barbaric legal punishments impinge on basic humanity. I have no respect for the cultural position of women in Wahhabi societies, I have no respect for the Saudi legal system killing people guilty of sorcery, I have no respect for a Chinese legal system that kills political dissenters and I have no respect for any legal system that equates drug crimes with the worst crimes punishable such as murder or rape. It doesn't make sense to me.

As for Mick Keelty, what a piece of shit, an interesting contrast is the Malaysian guy charged with murder and facing the death penalty in Malaysia who is currently being held in Australia but unlikely to be extradited because although we have an extradition treaty with Malaysia,"Australia's extradition legislation does not allow a person to be surrendered to another country for an offence punishable by death unless the country has given Australia an undertaking that the death penalty will not be carried out on the person"

hey silicon, i don't wish to argue or disagree with your comments at all, I also share an abhorrence to the things you mention. Just want to say I'm currently reading Robert Hughes' The Fatal Shore and it seems it wasn't all that very long ago that the British and Australian justice systems were as or more barbaric than the examples you quoted. Sad and strange but true.

No doubt Floyd, I guess in response to that I would say that these legal systems have developed somewhat although there are still areas which I would argue are barbaric - the intervention for iinstance, removing children from aboriginal families (still in practice), the incarceration of 'suspected terrorists' in prisons beyond the legal reach of legal statute like David Hicks held and tortured for five years without trial only to be found recently he had no charge to face.

In the case of Bali nine its the question of drugs and the extreme sentences in these countries which were instituted reasonably recently as a response to UN driven policy ie the war on drugs. The sentences are IMO totally inequitable and part of a demonstrably failed attempt to govern what people put into their own bodies. Its interesting to see this being turned on its head in America as pot legalization goes from strength to strength, instead of prisons full of people serving substantial sentences for possession of miniscule amounts of pot a whole industry has evolved generating jobs and tax for the states involved rather than generating a cost burden to the public through legal and incarceration costs.

These guys are foolish, no question, trying to make money by importing a drug that Australia produces the largest legal supply of, but to be killed for it? I can't understand the reasoning.

I am anti death penalty..... Too many people jailed and then 40 years later found innocent.... Here's an example - http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wrongfully-convicted-man-spent-half-his...

Sure, the guy was no church goer, but he didn't commit murder.... If he had've been in Texas, they would've killed him......
So, I don't care how horrid the crime is..... If there's a chance that our laws may kill innocent people, then what are we? We are murderers......
Life, no parole..... Child killers have to then live with hardened criminals for the rest of their days....

Now as far as Indo goes, well, that's there choice to have the death penalty..... I don't agree, but it aint my place.... The Indo people have the say..... But in the meantime, we all know that they have the death penalty..... Sometimes when you roll the dice, you lose.......

Crazy the publicity this case is getting, i can't believe the crap I've seen today in support of these scum and that concert thing, crazy thing is people think its going to help and Indonesia is suddenly going to change its mind…absolutely dreaming and have no understanding of Indonesian ways.

Even if there was a small chance a few months ago they could not get death and rot in jail instead, that has now gone with the media attention its received of late and other campaigns etc, i will tell you why.

Indonesians as a government doesn't like foreigners interfering in there issues, as do the indonesian public who the majority support these laws and penalties, plus if Indonesia did back down from outside pressure, it would be seen as very weak leader ship on Jokowi's part, and there are other more important issues going on in Indonesia currently that are not doing him any favours.

Ironically all this publicity is actually in Indonesia's favour, they want the world to know they have strong drug laws and you can get death for dealing with drugs there, especially smuggling, if they suddenly let them off lightly it would send the wrong message, one that says we have these laws but we are not real serious and we can be swayed by outside pressure.

If the Bali nine had never received so much media attention and media attention of late, maybe some money going somewhere could have got them off death row, maybe not, but now nothing will save them, it may decide on the timing they get shot though, it might push it to happen real soon or it might let them rot in jail for a few more years..who knows.

Personally i support the death penalty in Indonesia as long as guilt is certain even for drug smugglers, Indonesia is a very safe country compared to many other third world areas, sure it has drug problems, but nothing like areas in South america and all the related crime, I'm not saying the reason why is because of there strong laws, but it sure can't hurt and i want to keep Indonesia safe, drugs cause crime anywhere in the world but when you add poverty and the desperation to make money and then corruption in the mix, things get even worse, IMO indonesia is smart in keeping the drug problem in relatively in control rather than soften up and then need to deal with more problems.

For all Indonesia's mistakes, they do get some things right, take there homicide rate, its actually one of the lowest in the world, even lower than Australia (google world homicide rates)

People say, capital punishment doesn't work, and thats true, because nothing works, no matter what some people always feel the reward outweighs the risk.

But it is the biggest deterrent possible, and it also ensures they can not reoffend or lure or pressure others into being mules, and i should not 60% of people in our jail system are reoffenders.

People also have to remember we really don't know how many times they did this and if they didn't get caught how many more times they would do it again.

In regard to legalising drugs and treating it as a medical issue, in the west maybe this could work, but in a place like Indonesia it could never work because of how bad and stretched there medical system is and how few doctors they have compared to how many people there is.

Your right indo, the publicity is not going to achieve anything and I'm pretty cynical about it anyways, fund raising groups set up in the last few weeks, what were they doing for the last ten years. Similarly the sychophant celebrities and politicians supporting the mercy campaign.

Jokowi came into power saying he would ban clemencey for drug convicts so he's hardly going to back away from this stance anyways.

However these people aren't scum, they're just people, they tried to smuggle drugs and failed dismally. The death penalty doesn't work and is not a deterrent, people, cartels, governments will continue to smuggle drugs because its big business, one of the most lucrative in the world. Another model is what works and I've described it above with pot legalization in America, its not a medical issue its a prohibition issue, it wouldn't matter how many doctors Indonesia had, if controlled recreational drugs were available along with education what would be the medical issues?
Drugs aren't a problem all over the world, drug laws are, its got nothing to do with poverty and crime, the shit grows on trees, without prohibition anybody could grow there own opium, pot blah blah and the cost of manufacturing it is nothing compared to the cost generated because of drug laws propagating a black market. Indonesia doesn't have they're drug problem in control anymore than anywhere else, the crazy laws have done nothing to prevent drugs being readily available, you can walk into shops and buy halucinegens for heavens sake, pot, anphetamines as easy to get as in aus, so where is the evidence of the success of killing people for drug possession or smuggling?

Sheepdog]I am anti death penalty..... Too many people jailed and then 40 years later found innocent.... Here's an example - http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wrongfully-convicted-man-spent-half-his...

Sure, the guy was no church goer, but he didn't commit murder.... If he had've been in Texas, they would've killed him......
So, I don't care how horrid the crime is..... If there's a chance that our laws may kill innocent people, then what are we? We are murderers......
Life, no parole..... Child killers have to then live with hardened criminals for the rest of their days....

[quote=Sheepdog

wrote:

Now as far as Indo goes, well, that's there choice to have the death penalty..... I don't agree, but it aint my place.... The Indo people have the say..... But in the meantime, we all know that they have the death penalty..... Sometimes when you roll the dice, you lose.......

Just because it ain't your place sheepo doesn't mean that its OK, the holocaust happened in Germany but plenty of Australians fought for that cause. The indo's reckon its OK to kill west papuans , doesn't mean that I think its OK just cause I don't live there.

The glaringly obvious thing about the death penalty is that it's just government sanctioned murder.
So people got caught red handed commiting heinous crimes, and admit guilt, how does killing them make the killers any different? Fucking hypocrisy.

Very Interesting post Indo D, a spot on observation.

I'm undercided about merits of death penalty, but it is clearly a detterent, for most people.

Its the law in Indo and everybody knows it, for australians to make a big deal now will just stir up a healing wound. We all complain when Paris Hilton gets celebrity law instaed of common law, well nearly every white person gets celebrity law in Indo and the Indo's hate it with a passion just like we do. We dont need another Scappelle saga. Unfortunately their fate is determined and I feel for the families but it is nearly impossible for Jokowi to grant clemency now so the politicians and the ignorant need to let it go.

Not sure it is just hard laws that keep Indonesians so well behaved though Indo D, clearly religion and culture play a part.

I agree with your sentiments silicun but I think you have a very naive view of Indonesian society and the harmlessness of drugs, even the natural ones. And judging another cultures laws is dangerous from afar. I think it was the self righteous white middle class judging Aboriginal culture from afar that took the children away in the first place.

What would you say to an Aboriginal elder inflicting some payback justice with a spear? Seems a little barbaric, but is it?

Don't have time for a proper post, but i think most Aussies view on them get the death penalty would be a lot different if it happened to be two old dirty pedophiles that had molested a large number of kids, i think a lot that aren't for the death penalty would suddenly be strongly for it.

Hi sypkan, perhaps yes I'm naive about Indonesian society, I've only been there a few times but I've not made any comments beyond my understanding, certainly I'm not naive of the harmlessness or the harmfulness of drugs a principle which has been blown so far out of proportion by prohibition propaganda that the lay person who has not had any experience with illegal drugs has no scope to understand that they are not in fact any more harmful than legal drugs EXCEPT under the conditions of prohibition created black markets. A drug is a drug, there is no difference between natural or synthetic drug in terms of the definition of a drug just as there is no difference between legal and illegal drugs. Certainly my most dangerous experience with any drug was an over the counter synthetic drug, followed closely by a prescribed drug but there is no denying 'natural' drugs can be harmful.
Perhaps you can put forward some evidence of the harm caused by illegal recreational drug use not related to black market conditions which affect price, purity, contamination and criminality. Would it be any greater than the harm caused by legally available/prescribed drugs like Ritalin, oxycontin, thalidomide etc?
As a deterrent the death penalty doesn't work, the number of people facing the death penalty continues to rise year after year and remember we are talking about drug smugglers here not killers or rapists but drug smugglers, the original drug smugglers in SEA were the missionaries, smuggling opium into China and let's not go into the major connections in cocaine and opium smuggling.
As for the Aboriginal intervention, without a doubt bought about by white middle class judgment of a culture but let's not mistake culture for legislation.
What would I say about payback justice? What is the crime? I would doubt very highly you would find an instance of someone being speared to death in Aboriginal society for smuggling a recreational substance.

Indo you would get 90% plus in favour of the death penalty for sure but this isnt a child molestation charge.

That's what I was thinking Udo. How hard would it actually be to do that? Surely after being locked up for 10 years they would of met the type of people who could arrange something like that??
Or have I been watching too many movies?

silicun wrote:

While I respect the culture and beliefs of others I draw the line where cultural beliefs or barbaric legal punishments impinge on basic humanity. I have no respect for the cultural position of women in Wahhabi societies, I have no respect for the Saudi legal system killing people guilty of sorcery, I have no respect for a Chinese legal system that kills political dissenters and I have no respect for any legal system that equates drug crimes with the worst crimes punishable such as murder or rape. It doesn't make sense to me.

As for Mick Keelty, what a piece of shit, an interesting contrast is the Malaysian guy charged with murder and facing the death penalty in Malaysia who is currently being held in Australia but unlikely to be extradited because although we have an extradition treaty with Malaysia,"Australia's extradition legislation does not allow a person to be surrendered to another country for an offence punishable by death unless the country has given Australia an undertaking that the death penalty will not be carried out on the person"

Totally agree with yo sillicun.

Mick Keelty has their death on his head. Death penalty is not the way that civilised countries deal with crime. It's never right.

indo-dreaming wrote:

Crazy the publicity this case is getting, i can't believe the crap I've seen today in support of these scum and that concert thing, crazy thing is people think its going to help and Indonesia is suddenly going to change its mind…absolutely dreaming and have no understanding of Indonesian ways.

Actually, it's about human rights id, not 'Indonesian ways'. It it ain't right, it ain't right.

indo-dreaming wrote:

Personally i support the death penalty in Indonesia as long as guilt is certain even for drug smugglers,

And this is where we just come to irreconcilable differences. It is what separates the civilised from the uncivilised, simple as that. This is not a third world versus first world issue, the death penalty is wrong, always.

indo-dreaming wrote:

For all Indonesia's mistakes, they do get some things right, take there homicide rate, its actually one of the lowest in the world, even lower than Australia (google world homicide rates)

Yep, and all of Indo's murders would be meticulously reported and analysed in a comprehensive state of the art crime database.

Do you think that might be a little naive Indo. I'm assuming you've been to Indo a few times, and just like India and other third world countries that I have visited, how often does the village chief hear about some local crime and then the perpetrator disappears without trace. I'm sure that just never happens. No police reports, no database entries, no statistics, just disappearing humans.

indo-dreaming wrote:

People also have to remember we really don't know how many times they did this and if they didn't get caught how many more times they would do it again.

Oh, FFS! Is that your rationalisation for someone life being taken? Is that your threshold? Supposition. FMD.

I would doubt very highly you would find an instance of someone being speared to death in Aboriginal society for smuggling a recreational substance.

You're probably right silicun, don't know much about it, but I know spear stuff is still happening. Seems kinda barbaric by our standards regardless the crime, horses for courses I guess.

I don't think the indo's are ready for drug management methods that suit western countries, culturally or financially ready. Priorities here are not priorities there. Whatever they are doing drug are not pervasive through society like Australia, is that good or bad? I dunno.

Yeh the whole drug risks thing has been grossly over exaggerated and prohibitoon creates crime, and poor/suss product etc. but its difficult to argue there would be no ill effects without prohibition.

I know from my own circle of friends, many people over indulge and brains get a little cooked eventually. Small time pot use might be harmless but it is still a terrible demotivator that can impede ones growth.

I enjoy drugs but im not convinced they're harmless. Alcohol is definitely a dangerous drug, its legal, its trouble, why would you want to introduce more trouble?

For a poor hardcore country indo is incredibly functional, they are clearly doing some things that are right for them.

I reckon it's a case of, unless youve been directly affected by the actions of crime, be it drugs, peodafiles, violence etc, we all tend to have a distant, detatched view. If these blokes had supplied your kids drugs & they subsequently overdosed & died, would you be satisfied with a jail term & rehab & eventual release of said blokes?? The people behind drugs being manufactured & smuggled at large quantities are scum & don't deserve the right to life. They are willing for others to be killed. If there willing to take the spoils there willing to face the penalties. Simple.

I 100% agree rabbit

Its actually quite sad the way our western society is heading, i actually thought there would more responses in favour here, i can understand if it was pot or lesser drug or there was a doubt they were possibly guilty.

Australia is piss poor if this happened in Australia they wold get 20 years and be out in 10, with no prospect of employment, chances are high of reoffending, 60% of people in our prison system reoffend.

Im not saying they should all get death, but the punishment should fit the crime, but in Australia these days it doesn't, we waste huge money on housing people, take Martin Byrant as an example, 100% guilty of killing and injuring a large number of people, and we spend tax payers money on him that could be spent much better.

The death penalty should have its place in society for very serious crime where there is a large number of victims or potential victims, it just needs to be used very carefully, at the very least if we are not going to have the death penalty, at least let them have the option of taking there own life, even that would get rid of a large number of scum and save big dollars, and they are scum, they are the low lives of our society.

Anyway luckily it doesn't matter what anyone says or does, Indonesia aint going to change and on this case justice will be served.

those in favour of the death penalty are willing for a corrupt govt to have a licence to kill. is any government not corrupt? biggest criminal organisations on the planets are governments. the indos milked them for cash for a decade then decide?with plenty of drugs still on the street and inside. no drugs and alcohol have made some of those islamists the most peaceful characters on the planet hasnt it! i see aboriginals get a run here, they used natural bush stimulants and psychoactives. acacia etc. here in aussie ive noticed a bottleshop and chemist on just about every street corner, alcohol I think is the most useless fucked drug on the planet, the stupid and fat drug, toxic, the next day the hurt is all your organs have swelled due inflammation. oh, so blind i cant remember a thing, spewed on my shirt, glassed someone, fucked someones missus. I work with a heap of right wingers, they are all fat, stressed, 50 yr olds look like 150 (in this day and age-not weather and labour, office and passive aggressive bullshit all day). im payin for all the medical arthritic overweight complaints, livers,kidneys cholesterol et al. dads never at home cause hes always at his boring fucked job where half your wage goes to flying a chef overseas for austerity abbott or downer to sic our spy agency on the east timorese we stole the gas off. why do people buy surf gear and want to be surfers? the easy going laid back lifestyle? why do they move to Byron? for easy going laid back and then they want t change it and make it like a church and arent churches not full of fucken weirdos. like your food choices Ive worked out the status quo and what your told is very often bullshit- most are dying of food diet related diseases. death is money and govts want you to work and die early -eat shit and drink up boys! my little kids being sold drugs by a shady character, because these days we dont know what drugs do, its all a mystery isnt it........people want the fucken shit. and of course the codeine dependant mums, opioid addiction has increased in the states with herion at world low levels. how did that happen? of course legalising pot in amsterdam and the us has all the hand wringers struggling to prove all the bullshit they go on with.......the roof hasnt caved in and guess what-it may very well have a lot of practical medical applications they cant even study because it is more restricted than opioid research. the asians got heavy with opium post china and burma juntas paying for their anti humanity governments and massacres.
my point -have some fuck tell me what i cant use and not use on my/our planet? religous freaks should be put away for being off their fucken rocker -easter bunny believers. religon, the cctv of the middle ages. but if i commit a crime that HURTS someone else? then i pay the full penalty and not get out of it because i wasnt of sound judgment. it will be some cunt in a suit that kills your kids and puts your family on the street. i love how aussie stress is coming back into the domestic home, dad gets kicked in the balls all day, then if you even raise eyebrows at someone it could be deemed aggressive, so when you need to let of steam it has to be hidden and take it out on those you love otherwise you will lose your shit boring job. i realise we wont ever be warriors again, placated and distant from each other like never before. governments hate byron type communities because fuck me, someone might have creative thought or communities might actually get along, not pay to send their kids to privatised prisons for maximum profit for the white shoe brigade that own the roads, carparks and private security providers to take your kid for a minor offence to your maximised for profit private prison. then try and pay for a barrister in a legal system which is the best money can buy! and this ice bullshit that even really sick people dont want but are addicted, govt brings it in, distributes it amongst the poor ( blacks, maoris, our welfare whites) and can imprison and kill em all off. that is the perfect triple play for maximised profit all round. meanwhile our pissed prime minister can send us to war without being drug alcohol tested? do you think julie bishop will squat in front of a tester, full genitalia in view in case theres cheating? but you will on demand ! for a 30 grand a year pen pushing desk job or to drive a loader. sit, roll over, wheres your papers, ID? arent customs in aussie fun these days? more hat wearing, furrowed brow fuckwits empowered beyond belief. yet we still have killers and these extremists on the streets because that sells fear then aussies feel the need for the AFP to be searching your daughters phone for sexting and data to send off to brandis etc. gettin played like a bunch of clowns. the thing that annoys me is one guys dad went for help, protect and serve, and AFP still wanted that overseas travel allowance and dodgy dealings. more important than helping out the fucken taxpaying slave. death penalty is working great in saudi arabia too, no crime there.

west papua and east timor, christian beheadings. the little peace lovers. south america full of violent crime? only when money got involved.

Rabbits68 wrote:

I reckon it's a case of, unless youve been directly affected by the actions of crime, be it drugs, peodafiles, violence etc, we all tend to have a distant, detatched view. If these blokes had supplied your kids drugs & they subsequently overdosed & died, would you be satisfied with a jail term & rehab & eventual release of said blokes??

Tony Trimingham, father of Damien Trimingham who died of a heroin overdose, would be happy with their rehab and release.

“When I heard about the Bali 9 all those years ago, I was very distressed that they’d done it, but I could see that in a way they were just like my son — they were stupid, they were young, they were doing something they hadn’t thought about too much.”

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/tony-trimingham-why-the-worst-thing-that-could-happen-to-andrew-chan-and-myuran-sukumaran-is-their-execution/story-fnq2o7dd-1227197727575

Wonder if the fact they were smuggling drugs OUT of Indonesia was considered? Sure, the heroin had to get in there somehow, but from what I know Chan and Sukamaran had no part in that. 

Geez hem- stret could you push enter occasionally? I hate to ask you to conform to standard paragraphs, so just think of it as breaking up your thougts.

Some good thoughts in there though. Id just like to say a lot of muslims actually smoke pot because its not 'haram' like alcohol. This like the aboriginal traditional drugs is pretty harnless, possibly even positive for some communities. Even opium could be relatively harmless, however there's this thing called technological development that is refining and strengthening drugs to such a level that they are dangerous.

You need to get out of that office!!

Indo, under the death penalty, this innocent Australian man would've been murdered by the state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Mallard
Check out "Australian Story"...
Thankfully, W.A doesn't have the death penalty........

Silicun, I don't agree with the death penalty.... I don't agree with Sharia law in Iran either.... But it is up to those folk to change.... I can't go around sticking my nose into other country's business.... Now Germany........ They started bombing England, sinking our ships in the Indian ocean... So we got involved....
There's some pretty shitty stuff happening in north Korea right now... But I can't see us or England or usa invading and cleaning it up.... So I think using Germany was a bit unfair....
It's up to the Indo people to voice their concerns to their government, mate.... We can all voice our concerns from abroad, and hopefully some over there will be influenced... Some overseas folk may not like how we have treated the aboriginals, how we have decimated our fauna and in fact have the largest mammal extinction rate of any continent.... They can voice their disapproval, but it's up to us, not them..... You know what I'm saying?

Hem-stret, got two words for you mate.....Fight Club.

Express some of that modern society angst.
Good post though, thoroughly enjoyed it. As for the no paragraphs, no dramas. I've done the same. Stunet let me know about it. Some one had to.

Muslims and Ganga ? Some of the best weed I've ever tasted was from the Muslims on Cocos Island.

Death penalty ? Don't go for it sorry guys. But then again, I've never been a direct or indirect victim of heinous crime. Touch wood.

I've known more than a few people That have OD though and can say that in every case, somewhere along their journey down that road , they all made a conscious decision to partake in a potentially lethal activity.
No one forced them to develop a habit. Getting upset at dealers for drug deaths is like getting upset at shapers for big wave drownings. Everyone knew what was at stake and could have said no like I did.

Yeh hem-stret go with the no paragraphs.

No paragraphs is better than no post

It was a good post, caught a lot of feeling

Yep good factual find Stu. There will always be exceptions. It's a personal thing. Do you really buy the line "they were young & they didn't really think much about what they were doing"?? What they did is a tad bigger than selling drugs by the $50 bag around your local & the proof is in pudding....

Sorry there gents (and ladies) for poor grammar. I will use paragraphs and be as accurate as I can regarding proper punctuation from now on.

It does make for hard reading.

Stream of consciousness. That type of thing. Fight club, too right. Non compulsory though. Only willing participants.

Dont get me wrong, I have a great job in a great country.

Life should be a celebration. Ive read too much media and spent too long in front of the electric heroin (the TV).

I appreciate the enlightened views of fellow posters, even those opinions that challenge shine lights on areas and inform.

The key to our evolution I suppose. Because I ask, what is humanity actually trying to achieve now anyway? It has been a regression since the 16th century, say some academics.

Its like all we are doing is keeping the head down and trying to steer a path through the morass. boiled down to the basics of class warfare and status quo, I think people fear freedom because they fear themselves. Fear choice.

Old corpses at home on facebook, my Aussie 'we are right and better than everyone else myth' got so totally blown apart by some tribal energy and connectedness I've never recovered. People in tin sheds with nothing but their land and families so much more at peace you can see the lower blood pressure and slower heart rate. Take away traditional use, resupply with medicine and alcohol. Im not against our hard won knowledge but the bastardisation and profiteers convolute the gene pool.

Generalisations and judgements. Im sure death row people will have a connection with life that most will never get close to.

Im told drugs are a dead end, but, these paths Im currently presented with as life structures are walking death.

My christmas was spent alone, at work. Some of those with families hiding at work from their families, checking tinder every second minute looking for a sly fuck passing life judgements. 'Drugs are bad, kill em', while eating a meat substituted filler filled pie and drinking shit coffee. Life experience gained from australian media and living their whole lives within a 400km radius give me more fear than some 20yr olds selling some dope.

I do like em though, they were reflections of myself as a dangerous uninformed and ignorant Abbott type clone in the making.

So close to being the worker drone slave.

Ignorance was bliss and dangerous at the same time, like a drug experience?

Rabs, unfortunately its not that simple. These clowns were a small part of a long supply chain bggining with the growing and harvesting in Afghanistan or Myanmar most likely, from there traded and taken somewhere to refine, from there smuggled through however many hands to Indonesia and the 9kilos would have been distributed again a few times in Australia before it hit the streets, so who would the affected parent be wanting revenge upon, do we go and track down the farmers or the refiners or the millions of people smuggling the shit and kill them all? A current trend in drug use in Australia is people refining over the counter codiene tablets to inject, if someone died do we kill the phamisist or the company that produced the tablets?
Sheepo perhaps my example didn't suit my argument so well so let me suggest the situation of Aung San Suu Kyi, international pressure was what bought about her freedom and there are numerous examples of people protesting the policies of governments foreign to their own, multi million dollar organizations are set up to bring international attention and pressure to inhumane policies all over the world including treatment of detainees in Australia.
Sypkan Indonesia already uses western policies to manage their drug problems, including prohibition and more progressive policies like harm minimization, while drugs may not be as pervasive as here in Aus there is increasing usage as well as a much longer history of usage of drugs such as opium. Recorded in the 1600's werer over 1000 opium dens and over 100000 registered opium users, along with common cannibus use, beetlenut and other drugs. These days Indonesia is a producer of amphetamines, ecstasy and cannibus.
The policies of prohibition first applied to opiates as America lobbied governments around the world to adopt their stance on a suite of drugs which were once common place and regarded as not only miricle drugs but promoted as preferable to 'dangerous' drugs like alcohol.
Refinements in opiates, firstly morphine and then heroin were both huge steps in medicine, its not the increased strength that makes them dangerous its the complete inability to know the strength and therefore the dosage when it is in the control of the black market. Opiates are one of the safest drugs in terms of physiological side effects, the main problem being addiction.
The war on drugs hasn't worked, its time to stop prohibition and adopt/trial policies which will actually achieve something, regu!aged management of drugs, put an end to corruption of law enforcement and governments, stop filling gaols with recreational drug users and creating powerful well funded criminal networks. It wasn't alcohol that created Al Capone, it was prohibition.

Hand wringers, next time you and the family get in front of the telly and get sold funeral insurance and watch whatever boring crap it is that we watch these days, have a look at the glazed and distant facial expression of the kids and the wives in the room. A state of unconsciousness whilst being consciousness.

Deers in the headlights!

Time to switch off, or on? I will just check
in on my electric cigarette, brain swelling, mobile tracker, I mean phone. Parents have no issue putting a portal to the multinationals in their kids pockets. The cigarettes of the noughties. Hopefully put in jean pockets near pubescent genitalia, perhaps enough microwaves to sterilise. Definitely enough power to switch on that microphone and listen in when needed. A device that can gather marketing information, spy and kill all at the same time!

Lead me to that higher grail human.

Rabbits68 wrote:

Yep good factual find Stu. There will always be exceptions. It's a personal thing. Do you really buy the line "they were young & they didn't really think much about what they were doing"?? What they did is a tad bigger than selling drugs by the $50 bag around your local & the proof is in pudding....

Rabs if you saw the footage of the capture its pretty obvious they didn't think about what they were doing, seriously a nine ring circus, how they thought they would get away with strapping huge packages to their bodies in post 9/11 airport security is beyond retarded or....they were young and they just didn't think about it.

Silicun, I think trying to compare a political prisoner in one's own country to these two guys who smuggled heroin through someone elses country, therefore disrespecting their authorities is, well, I don't know..... I suppose we could use David Hicks, too......

Our government has tried.. I gotta give Abbott that....
And I agree with you re' drug policy.... Prohibition doesn't work.... Never will.....
But...... BUT!!!!!!! Drinking alcohol in Saudi Arabia is dealt with by a public flogging..... So, if you and I went there on a holiday, mate, and you smuggled in a bottle of Jack and wanted to drink it in the park, I'd say "you silicunt".......... I think public floggings for having a drink is ridiculous.... But we both knew the ramifications...... Doesn't make it right..... But that's the way it is.... That's the way it is right now...... Therefore, I'd tell me mate silicun to show some fuckn respect to the local laws and get you to tip the jack down the drain......
So..... The way it is right now in a lot of S.E Asia if you get caught smuggling heroin, you're in deep DEEP shit.... Even pot will get up shit creek, and only those living on the moon didn't hear about Corby....
Now these two blokes knew the risks....... It was their choice..... I do hope they are saved at the 11th hour..... But fuck, man...... They knew...... They got caught.... I only hope this sad situation makes others think......

Silicun, I to was young once, did some "stupid" illegal things I did think about but took the risk anyway. Got nailed a couple of times but got very lucky more often than not. However none of crimes were of the degree of importing 8kg of herion. They both stood to make life changing amounts of money (I presume, but don't know) at other peoples expense. Are there degrees of stupidity or not?? I do acknowledge that it's easy for me to say that two people should be put to death, at the end of the day its not going to effect my life greatly. If the death penalty is abolished, will it stop people importing drugs? Is the death penalty a deterant to you?

I don't see the difference, these guys are prisoners waiting to be executed for a crime which is only a crime because of politicical policy, there was a day and age where it wasn't a crime to travel through this region and trade opium. My position is that the punishment doesn't fit the crime.
In terms of respecting cultural norms and regional laws personally I do in every sense when I travel and I travel extensively, this doesn't preclude me from disagreeing with or speaking out against practices I see as wrong.

Rab's the death penalty is certainly a deterrent for me, there is no way when I travel to these countries that I would even touch drugs. I've been offered in Indo, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Singapore, I've been full body searched in Thailand 3 times and in Sri Lanka and I've been taken aside in literally dozens of airports worldwide (I'm heavily tattooed) being gaoled in any of these countries is enough to scared me shitless let alone facing the death penalty.
Abolishing the death penalty will not stop people from importing drugs, prohibition more than likely will, if there is no money in it, no one would bother. What im saying is that prohibition and extreme sentencing hasn't worked as a deterrent or to make any dent in the importation and distribution of drugs. No one missed a hit because that measely 9kgs didn't make it to aus streets. Smuggling hasn't stopped in the face of these guys facing the death penalty, there's still plenty readily available drugs out there on the streets.

"this doesn't preclude me from disagreeing with or speaking out against practices I see as wrong."

Of course it doesn't... You have every right...... But you approached me with a contrary position... And just like you, I should be able to defend my position.......
But once we start comparing apples with oranges, we get no where... For starters, Aung San Suu Kyi wasn't on death row, unlike Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran..... So it's chalk and cheese....By memory she was under house arrest...... She was also the daughter of some guy big in Burmese political history ( not that crash hot on Myanmar political history lol)....... There's a lot more to that Aung San Suu Kyi story ...... Just because it is a convenient comparison doesn't make it a fair comparison......

In the long run, be both agree silicun. We're both anti death penalty... It's just I think the situation is soo convoluted. So many angles........ I also think Australia's drug laws make it viable to people to risk their lives..... We're part of this..... So before we jump up and down about laws in Bali, let's see what we can do in our own country..... otherwise we are hypocrites, and will remain part of the problem...... We have all the heroin an addict needs growing in Tasmania.... One legalises it, dispenses it to junkies via the medical system, and presto, the black market is wiped out........ But I suppose there'll be a silicun or sheepdog like ideologist in Jakarta saying how stupid our new heroin law is......
And the wheels go round and round..........

Silicun the afghan opium situation I find interesting. I get the impression when our good ol boys were over there, distribution increased? By making it illegal it ups the price too. Im not pro opium by the way. One can just say no after all.

Iran/contra? The biggest profiteers seem to be the war machines. whether funding the islamists, communists or the industrial war companies.

We all keep talking about government and nationalities. Of course one should respect local custom and the way others live. But I also hear the European union puts huge pressure on the Netherlands to prohibit. No respect for national right to govern?

Its is everyones planet. Visas and borders are obsolete really. Id be happier to empower our biosecurity efforts as opposed to hassling people over place of origin.

Countries being vilified by our media, Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Syria etc etc Im told are really in that position because they are not part of the 'financial banking' system we are plugged into. Financiers want a free market but humans cant have a free planet.

As for drug profits, its been proven local dealers barely make more than minimum wage, in this day and age. You cant manufacture or grow anything on this planet realistically without some government body knowing about it either. Id like to see the AFP march into China when the next amphetamine shipment comes in from there..............or is it being allowed in?

It seems even 'druggies' per say dont like or want ice but there is plenty of it. Even sports and the angelic work safety tester brigades allow percentages of ephedrine in samples because the medicinal companies lobbied for continued market access.

I suppose it shows how easy it is to be caught up in the machinery.

The poorest and uninformed always pay the heftiest prices and we are conditioned to show no mercy. Maintain the status quo at all costs.

silicun wrote:

Rab's the death penalty is certainly a deterrent for me, there is no way when I travel to these countries that I would even touch drugs. I've been offered in Indo, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Singapore, I've been full body searched in Thailand 3 times and in Sri Lanka and I've been taken aside in literally dozens of airports worldwide (I'm heavily tattooed) being gaoled in any of these countries is enough to scared me shitless let alone facing the death penalty.
Abolishing the death penalty will not stop people from importing drugs, prohibition more than likely will, if there is no money in it, no one would bother. What im saying is that prohibition and extreme sentencing hasn't worked as a deterrent or to make any dent in the importation and distribution of drugs. No one missed a hit because that measely 9kgs didn't make it to aus streets. Smuggling hasn't stopped in the face of these guys facing the death penalty, there's still plenty readily available drugs out there on the streets.

Silicun I agree with most of what you say above. Ideally if there was no money to be made that would settle the score. But it's not the reality. Taking the risks these guys did in a country like Indo could possibly & probably will be there last. Hard facts to swallow for sure......

"The poorest and uninformed always pay the heftiest prices and we are conditioned to show no mercy. Maintain the status quo at all costs."

Nicely said, meanwhile the John Ibrahim's and the coppers getting there kickbacks sit pretty.

AFP march into China for the next amphetamines shipment? Wasn't that what Mark Standen was doing?

Opium crop has increased in Afghanistan since that Taliban lost control of the region (they had almost totally wiped the industry out) bumper crops every year now, I'm not going to go into the conjecture surrounding afgan cropping anymore than to include your quip - Iran contra....

Iran, Afghanistan, north Korea, Syria the bogeyman countries, the Vietnam, Cuba, Japan, soviet union of this day and age.

The whole Bali Nine story is a compelling story which has not ended. The death row issue does affect us all directly since the Aus Fed Police were directly involved. The Aus Fed Police have since changed their procedures, so thats one positive. Chan and Sukumaran may pay the ultimate price which really may have been caused by Aus Police. I think the Indo's will ensure their independence from the outside and follow their rulings.

It'll be they're last for sure in my mind Rab's, I don't see any chance of them gaining clemency. They won't be the last people to be caught smuggling drugs in or out of the region though, while there is demand and money to be made some greedy fools will step up to the plate.

Here's something totally outside the square........ There's always gonna be criminals , right? Always... I mean let's not get all "kumbaya my lord"........ Criminality will always exist....... There will always be criminal organisations too...... Gangs, mafia, yakuza, etc etc blah blah blah.......

Now the main product for these gangs to trade in is drugs.... Hypothetically , if the whole world was to make all drugs legal, all of them, what would the criminal organisations trade in? What would they turn to? Would there be more scamming? More gun running? More human trafficking? More counterfeiting? More kidnapping and blackmail?Maybe that's why drugs are kept illegal.... The status quo..........

5x5 silicun