Andrew Chan - Myuran Sukumaran
Very happy to see Jokowi stick to his guns.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-28/widodo-rules-out-reprieve-for-bali...
batfink wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Crazy the publicity this case is getting, i can't believe the crap I've seen today in support of these scum and that concert thing, crazy thing is people think its going to help and Indonesia is suddenly going to change its mind…absolutely dreaming and have no understanding of Indonesian ways.
Actually, it's about human rights id, not 'Indonesian ways'. It it ain't right, it ain't right.
indo-dreaming wrote:Personally i support the death penalty in Indonesia as long as guilt is certain even for drug smugglers,
And this is where we just come to irreconcilable differences. It is what separates the civilised from the uncivilised, simple as that. This is not a third world versus first world issue, the death penalty is wrong, always.
indo-dreaming wrote:For all Indonesia's mistakes, they do get some things right, take there homicide rate, its actually one of the lowest in the world, even lower than Australia (google world homicide rates)
Yep, and all of Indo's murders would be meticulously reported and analysed in a comprehensive state of the art crime database.
Do you think that might be a little naive Indo. I'm assuming you've been to Indo a few times, and just like India and other third world countries that I have visited, how often does the village chief hear about some local crime and then the perpetrator disappears without trace. I'm sure that just never happens. No police reports, no database entries, no statistics, just disappearing humans.
indo-dreaming wrote:People also have to remember we really don't know how many times they did this and if they didn't get caught how many more times they would do it again.
Regarding the homicide rates, i don't know how there counted etc, but every Indonesian does have an identity card, deaths still need to be counted, reported and explained.
Even if you compare there homicide rates with other third world countries that you could say exactly the same thing about, the homicide rate is much lower. just look at the majority of South America, Africa and even just across the border in PNG.
IMO in all honesty its probably got more to do with the people themselves and there culture and even genetics than the law..but hey whatever it is there doing something right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
I find the use of the death penalty in this case to be utterly abhorrent and without any justification. Here's why:
They are being murdered by the state for the POTENTIAL harm that their actions may have caused.
Again and again, I hear people argue that they 'deserve to die' because the heroin they were smuggling COULD HAVE caused deaths.
True- it could have if it were to reach the users. So here's a a thought experiment. Let's apply that same standard to some other crimes. How about assault? Or drink-driving, or even speeding. A driver caught DUI or exceeding the speed limit could also have caused death. So, surely they too should be murdered by the state? Judged by that standard, I bet everyone on these forums could/should be shot! (certainly I would qualify)
It is one thing to apply a death penalty after someone has actually killed somebody- in that instance, justice may have been done (Personally I oppose that too, but philosophically at least it is a consistent, defensible position). But, it is something else entirely to kill somebody for the potential (ie, unrealised) consequences of their actions. That can NEVER be a just act. Worse still, where does such application of state-sanctioned murder end? With thought crimes?
indo-dreaming wrote:batfink wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:Crazy the publicity this case is getting, i can't believe the crap I've seen today in support of these scum and that concert thing, crazy thing is people think its going to help and Indonesia is suddenly going to change its mind…absolutely dreaming and have no understanding of Indonesian ways.
Actually, it's about human rights id, not 'Indonesian ways'. It it ain't right, it ain't right.
indo-dreaming wrote:Personally i support the death penalty in Indonesia as long as guilt is certain even for drug smugglers,
And this is where we just come to irreconcilable differences. It is what separates the civilised from the uncivilised, simple as that. This is not a third world versus first world issue, the death penalty is wrong, always.
indo-dreaming wrote:For all Indonesia's mistakes, they do get some things right, take there homicide rate, its actually one of the lowest in the world, even lower than Australia (google world homicide rates)
Yep, and all of Indo's murders would be meticulously reported and analysed in a comprehensive state of the art crime database.
Do you think that might be a little naive Indo. I'm assuming you've been to Indo a few times, and just like India and other third world countries that I have visited, how often does the village chief hear about some local crime and then the perpetrator disappears without trace. I'm sure that just never happens. No police reports, no database entries, no statistics, just disappearing humans.
indo-dreaming wrote:People also have to remember we really don't know how many times they did this and if they didn't get caught how many more times they would do it again.
Regarding the homicide rates, i don't know how there counted etc, but every Indonesian does have an identity card, deaths still need to be counted, reported and explained.
Even if you compare there homicide rates with other third world countries that you could say exactly the same thing about, the homicide rate is much lower. just look at the majority of South America, Africa and even just across the border in PNG.
IMO in all honesty its probably got more to do with the people themselves and there culture and even genetics than the law..but hey whatever it is there doing something right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
One of the very few thing we disagree on, Indo...... BTW, you still haven't addressed my pov re' innocent people being wrongly found guilty due to sloppy police work and sentenced to death...... I take it you are more than happy for collateral damage......
Also, I don't find Indonesia's crime stats that impressive....
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/profiles/Indonesia/Crime
That shows the death penalty has done jack shit, I suppose.....
And BTW, the 98 riots....... At least 1000 ethnic chinese murdered, but not counted as murder.... At least 168 reported cases of rape, but not all counted officially , as some cases are still being heard some 16 years on....
Also, from "living in Indonesia . com; "Recently a man who stole a motorcycle from a rural village within Jakarta was burned to death by local villagers. This apparently happens often"
This was not counted on the murder stats.....
Anyways, still luv ya, Indo.... Can't agree on everything ;)
Really i think they are pretty good, especially when you take into consideration Indonesia is a third world country but still ranks pretty good overall.
BTW, when you click on them for the full list there different to what it actually says, generally rate better than it says.
The murder rate on this one is worse than Aust though even USA (WTF?), thats the problem with the internet, so much conflicting information, and really if you cheery pick its very easy to back either side of arguments.
IMO Singapore is perhaps the most perfect country/city on earth and has the death penalty and a take no shit system and it rates close to best on everything, just about everything is good about singapore, low crime rate, clean, gardens and green space everywhere and well maintained, extremely good transport system, great food, mix of cultures, beautiful women, only thing it lack is waves :(
Wow Indo, for someone with a strong insight and appreciation of a culture like Indonesia it strikes me as odd that you would put Singapore up there as the most perfect country on earth! I found the place to be soul destroying, conformist and homogenised. Kinda like Canberra or a western poster child for Asia. The thing I enjoy most about SEA countries is the outright genuine friendliness you encounter and the appreciation everyday people, poor as they may be, have for the richness of life. You rarely get eye contact let alone a smile from a passer by in Singapore. A vacuous city full of people trying to show off their wealth, give me a filthy, dangerous Bangkok any day ;)
silicun wrote:Wow Indo, for someone with a strong insight and appreciation of a culture like Indonesia it strikes me as odd that you would put Singapore up there as the most perfect country on earth! I found the place to be soul destroying, conformist and homogenised. Kinda like Canberra or a western poster child for Asia. The thing I enjoy most about SEA countries is the outright genuine friendliness you encounter and the appreciation everyday people, poor as they may be, have for the richness of life. You rarely get eye contact let alone a smile from a passer by in Singapore. A vacuous city full of people trying to show off their wealth, give me a filthy, dangerous Bangkok any day ;)
Ha ha..yeah don't get me wrong i wouldn't want to live there, id much rather live in Indo in some dirty little village on the edge of the jungle with waves, I'm not a city person and your correct the people are not overall friendly, but every time i go there i feel and think, its like a perfect city from some other planet, like its not real, like those citys you see on star wars where everyone is living in peace but are always under threat and need hep because they can't defend themselves.
Actually i have a few separate friends living in OZ that are from Singapore (both couples Indo Chinese) and when i say how i think Singapore is the perfect example of a city, they do say to visit its great, but to live its not so great, because its expensive (for SE Asia) and start telling me all the negatives.
Singapore.............struth. Lets load up the boats and send the perfect people there. Please. Tell me about all the wonderful stuff that comes from Singapore? They shuffle money around.......thats about it. Ask the cleaners of the huts at shoalwater post singapore military exercises in qld about what wonderful behaviours the conscripts get up too in the barracks................what Asian country sends relationship counsellors into nightclubs because the myopic souls have forgotten how males and females should interact or dont know how too? It may be Malaysia but life would be like reading from the book you are told to read and thats it. I'd be like my wonderful boarding school years, hypocritical prison. Go from your box at work to your box at home with not an original thought all day. But thats where we are headed I suppose.
I've been following all the posts with interest for reasons I will explain. With any forum some intelligent and reasoned posts, some not so.
This is the view of a parent with children who are approaching the age the younger of the 'Bali 9' were when this all started, almost ten years ago. I cannot even imagine the horrors the families of all nine are going through, especially the families of Chan and Sukumaran right now. I've followed this pitifully sad saga from the start for the very simple reason that I am a parent and I figure the better I am informed the better I can inform my children. We openly discuss these guys, Corby, drugs and lots of things quite openly and have done for many years. So this is a consensus view of four, spanning a generation;
- There isn't a Bali nine. There is a Bali seven made up up of the pliable, the not too bright, the desperate and the easily coerced.
- There is also the Bali two. The standover man who threatened the other seven in Bali and the manipulator, the man who put it all together, who sold a young weak, stupid and impressionable seven on no risk, easy money.
- Neither Chan or Sukumaran had drugs strapped to them as Silicun suggested. They're not that stupid. Chan was already on the plane when he was arrested. From memory he offered a million dollars to be set free. This isn't a young kid who made a one off stupid mistake.
- Neither of the 'Bali 2' gave a shit about the mules they'd manipulated and stood over. The families that would have (and subsequently have been) destroyed, were of no consequence to them. As to what would have happened back in Oz to lots of other families had they been succseful. Did they care? Of course not.
- Chan had done this before. Many times and not just in Bali. It's well documented in the British press. He's a skilled manipulator and has a talent for suckering the weak into risking their lives for a pittance so he and whoever he works for can live the good life.
Sukumaran I have a degree of sympathy for because he's probably just a Chan hand puppet too. The 'bali 7' I have huge sympathy for. So many lives destroyed.
So for us it's not about the potential of drugs landing in Australia and the whole circular argument that generates. It's about the scum of a person who would coerce the young into doing something that risks their lives so that he rakes in the dollars. What was it? $10-15k per mule. How much was Chan going to get out of this? Many, many times that.
I'm against the death penalty. In most cases. Sukurmaran - commute to life. Please let him live.
Chan? If he had conned one of my kids to get on a plane to Bali and a possible death penalty I'd be putting my hand up for a rifle. Some people just don't deserve a grain of mercy.
A parents view shared by his kids.
Sure Getskills, until for some unfathomable reason, one of your children, or one of THEIR children , falls a little further from the tree and turns out to be that unconscionable, money driven manipulator.
I bet you couldn't shoot him, or her, quick enough then .
Hi getskills, although you and I dissagree on a few points let me clarify that my reference to strapping drugs to their bodies didnt imply Chan, it was a reference to the operation in general, I followed the story as it unfolded as did you, hard to miss it being the media spectacle that it was.
While Chan was undoubtedly one of the ring leaders it hasn't been proven that he used threats or stand over tactics, these are accusations put forward by some of the co accused. Manipulator - possibly, stand over man - possibly, you and I will never know. The evidence put before the court found that he AND Myuran were the ringleaders and both received the most severe sentences to reflect this, if you have evidence that Myuran had lesser involvement then you know something the judges didn't.
Your assumptions that the others were coerced as young, not to bright doesnt fit with what is known about the characters. Half of them were older than Chan. Nguyen is said to be the financier of the operation, was involved in an earlier attempt with Chan and Norman. Renae Lawrence had performed the trip on 2 previous occassions, one earlier attempt being successful where she AND Chan had drugs strapped to their bodies by Myuran. Of the others Scott Rush was no stranger to the law having convictions for drugs, fraud and theft.
You and I will never know the thought processes that each of the nine went through to get them in this position or the role of others involved including the six arrested in Australia and the thai national said to be the supplier, who was pulling the strings? Who was making how much money? Ive made it quite clear that I don't believe the death penalty should be served but I dont see the point in trying to rationalise the resposibilities, there is no excusing they are all guilty of their own actions.
Getskills wrote:I've been following all the posts with interest for reasons I will explain. With any forum some intelligent and reasoned posts, some not so.
This is the view of a parent with children who are approaching the age the younger of the 'Bali 9' were when this all started, almost ten years ago. I cannot even imagine the horrors the families of all nine are going through, especially the families of Chan and Sukumaran right now. I've followed this pitifully sad saga from the start for the very simple reason that I am a parent and I figure the better I am informed the better I can inform my children. We openly discuss these guys, Corby, drugs and lots of things quite openly and have done for many years. So this is a consensus view of four, spanning a generation;
- There isn't a Bali nine. There is a Bali seven made up up of the pliable, the not too bright, the desperate and the easily coerced.
- There is also the Bali two. The standover man who threatened the other seven in Bali and the manipulator, the man who put it all together, who sold a young weak, stupid and impressionable seven on no risk, easy money.
- Neither Chan or Sukumaran had drugs strapped to them as Silicun suggested. They're not that stupid. Chan was already on the plane when he was arrested. From memory he offered a million dollars to be set free. This isn't a young kid who made a one off stupid mistake.
- Neither of the 'Bali 2' gave a shit about the mules they'd manipulated and stood over. The families that would have (and subsequently have been) destroyed, were of no consequence to them. As to what would have happened back in Oz to lots of other families had they been succseful. Did they care? Of course not.
- Chan had done this before. Many times and not just in Bali. It's well documented in the British press. He's a skilled manipulator and has a talent for suckering the weak into risking their lives for a pittance so he and whoever he works for can live the good life.
Sukumaran I have a degree of sympathy for because he's probably just a Chan hand puppet too. The 'bali 7' I have huge sympathy for. So many lives destroyed.
So for us it's not about the potential of drugs landing in Australia and the whole circular argument that generates. It's about the scum of a person who would coerce the young into doing something that risks their lives so that he rakes in the dollars. What was it? $10-15k per mule. How much was Chan going to get out of this? Many, many times that.
I'm against the death penalty. In most cases. Sukurmaran - commute to life. Please let him live.
Chan? If he had conned one of my kids to get on a plane to Bali and a possible death penalty I'd be putting my hand up for a rifle. Some people just don't deserve a grain of mercy.
A parents view shared by his kids.
Good post 99% agree, well said… 1% deducted because you think one of these scum should live.
The concerned parent type, great to hear discussion and information. Thats key and probably some of them did not have that parental support. what never ceases to amaze me is that the hardline law followers, when one of their kids happen to get involved, suddenly fight the system with everything they have.
If I supported any form of death penalty, it would be reserved for the Obeids of the world. taking public money and influence away from improving roads, hospitals and schools whilst furthering their own private interests on taxpayer funded work time. Or those substituting synthetic milk proteins in infant formulas. or the manufacturers of thalidomide and getting that into the young mothers.
More people die from food poisoning every year than drugs or just as severely harmed, but its nowhere near as sexy. That has industry protection. if parents knew as much about their water and food choices and production and how that affected health as much as drugs it would be fantastic.
In that area of the world it seems they can sniff out traces of drugs anywhere, but have trouble with the odd airliner. Like losing over 3 of them in the last decade.
Assuming GetSkills information is correct.
What I find interesting is that the Australian media machine has decided they should live.
So as a result we didn't get the whole back story about Chan and co.
Journalists are fucking useless its their job to report the facts, not censor them
As mentioned by Indo, its difficult to get the facts. Since when do journalists report the facts ? There is more opinion than fact. However, it understandable that Aus opinion do feel they should live. Remember, our Aus Fed Police dobbed them in (knowing about the death penalty). Also we don't have the death penalty here.
Media do love a bit of hype !
I must be softening, or weakening, or something, I actually agree with tonybarber...for once.
However journalists swear an oath, like doctors do, must be time for a journalist to investingate the adherence to that oath...not likely. The back story is relevant and contributing, you'd think one journalist would have the balls.
Now tony, care to comment on peter liddy? Just joking tony
Still waiting for Indo to address to "collateral damage" angle.... Under the death penalty, innocent people do get murdered.... So, Indo, what level of collateral damage would you be comfortable with? 1 in 20? 1 in 50? 1 in 100?
The closest stat I can find is a probability of 4 in 100 executed were not guilty.... That's 1 in 25......
Indo, the law you support means you have innocent blood on you hands.... I can't see why you would support a 1st testament ancient law (eye for an eye).... An eye for an eye never works.. Look at the middle east...... I can't see anything wrong with mandatory life in a balinese jail for these guys... That's still a pretty hefty price without the guilt of killing 1 innocent for every 25 executions......
Getskills is right re previous and simultaneous attempts set up by Chan and a 'syndicate', the reports are there and arrests were made. Why doesnt it appear in the media? My guess is that it was probably overshadowed by the 'drama' of the day. The reason its back in the news now is that the final appeal trial was happening, 10 years to express disagreement with the death penalty, 10 years of nothing and then at minutes to midnight the media and the bgrade celebs desperate for some screentime start a 'cause'. Excuse my cynicism but its way to late which reflects the disingenuous nature of it.
I've been considering the death penalty . I do believe in capital punishment after all.
The Bali bombers ? - Catch ya in the next life, fuckwits. Remember Anita Cobby ? Ditto for her murderers etc, etc.
Death penalty is all good, blowin, unless it's you that's the 1 in 25......
it worked for Stalin
Blowin, for an Islamic bomber would it be a worse punishment to make a martyr of them via death penalty or to imprison them for life without parole?
Would you be making a martyr out of them via the death penalty? I thought you were only a martyr if you voluntarily suffered death - nothing voluntary about the death penalty.
Voluntary suicide bombing to kill many as a martyr for their god. Death penalty dying with no cause or result.
I'm not sure I don't know enough about Islam, I guess if you voluntarily accept the death penalty without putting up a legal defence it appears so.....
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/fort-hood-shooter-receives-death-sente...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/bali-bombers-buried-...
I think your a martyr if you die by the hands of your enemy while fighting the 'good' fight.
Executing bali bombers played into their hands, the smiling dude knew he couldn't lose (in his eyes)
Sheepdog wrote:Still waiting for Indo to address to "collateral damage" angle.... Under the death penalty, innocent people do get murdered.... So, Indo, what level of collateral damage would you be comfortable with? 1 in 20? 1 in 50? 1 in 100?
The closest stat I can find is a probability of 4 in 100 executed were not guilty.... That's 1 in 25......
Indo, the law you support means you have innocent blood on you hands.... I can't see why you would support a 1st testament ancient law (eye for an eye).... An eye for an eye never works.. Look at the middle east...... I can't see anything wrong with mandatory life in a balinese jail for these guys... That's still a pretty hefty price without the guilt of killing 1 innocent for every 25 executions......
In this case there 100% guilty, they admit guilt, there caught basically red handed.
Like I pointed out in my OP, i think the death penalty should only be used in certain cases when there is no doubt of guilt, for example Martin Bryrant case is the perfect example where it should be used.
personally i think in Australia there should also be a point system used for certain crimes in particular violent crimes….the 100 point system, when your reach 100 points you out.
Example.
You murder one person you get 50 points, two people 100 points.
Rape 25 points, Pedophile-a 25 points, armed hold ups 10 points.
There just samples so don't go on about how i have given the wrong points.
Your reach 100 points and your out, this ensures we don't get people that just keep repeating and repeating and gets taps on the wrist, while innocent law abiding people suffer.
In regard to the eye for an eye thing, or the taking a life makes you just as bad bullshit.
Lets take this scenario somebody takes ten people hostage and has a bomb attached to him, if you don't shot him with a head shot, he is going to kill all the hostages.
Your choice is to not shot him and ten innocent people die or shot him killing one fucked up unit and saving ten people.
This scenario is actually not much different to what happened in Sydney a few weeks back, but theres no uproar about this, even though a life was taken on purpose by authorities.
These drug runners case is really not much different two low life life's are lost, but in the process many lives are saved, and then you have to take into consideration the trauma prevented to families , crime prevented by addicts to get the money for drugs….sure you can take the piss poor attitude that somebody else will just take there place and sell them drugs, but thats just a cop out attitude, that can be applied to any crime, why bother stoping it from happening or give a penalty because, someone else will just do it.
BTW. My main problem i have with this issue, is not the drug thing or the death penalty.
The problem i have is its none of our business to get involved in Indonesia's matters, we have no right whatsoever to tell them how to do things, just as they have no right to tell us how to do things, especially when people start doing campaigns and celebrities get involved.
Even worse is how some people are staring to look as these two as some kind of heroes, I've even seen people put there photos as there Facebook profile without even a slogan.
End of the day, no matter what you believe in regarding the death penalty, there still criminals and not just minor ones, they organised the smuggling of a huge amount of Heroin…perhaps the most bad arse drug of them all.
Indo.... No, mate the most bad arsed drug of them all is alcohol..... Followed by ice..... But that's another story...
Mate, your hostage headshot comparison to the death penalty is, umm, let's just say it can't compare... For starters, it's a volatile hostage situation where innocent people are at risk..... Whereas a shackled defendant in a court room is no risk to anyone..... A bit like silicuns hypotheticals about nazi Germany, it's comparing apples to oranges, mate...... And as far a Sydney? Didn't the police try negotiations up until some of the hostages did the bolt and the shit hit the fan?
I simply asked you what stat' re collateral damage you are happy with, as in how many totally innocent people per 100 you are comfortable with killing... It currently stands at 4 innocent people per 100..... That's 1 in 25....... Look at a classroom of 25 kids...... one of them........ The only thing you said that came close to addressing this was your stated opinion - "taking a life makes you just as bad bullshit"..... Well, IMO, it does make one as bad..... And if we are going to use "comparisons", I'll go along the lines of 24 "good deeds" make up for the one "bad deed"..... 24 guilty people executed makes up for the one innocent murder ok.... ....
I could say just because I shot 24 invading soldiers(good deeds), then go out at night whilst on leave and cut the throat of some woman (bad deed), that doesn't make the murder excusable........ Maybe under a points system, I should be awarded points for all enemy soldiers I killed, and that would cancel out the murder I have committed...
Life, hard labour, no parole....... And when I say no parole, I mean no parole....
Alcohol is not the worse drug, it causes more deaths possibly than other drugs, but thats for one reason only and thats because it used by the majority of the legal age population and many underage.
If every person that drank also did heroin and did it as many times (separate days), our population would be going backwards, under controlled circumstances most drugs including heroin are safe and often useful, but our human mentality is we always want that little bit more, that little bit more of a buzz/ high/or just getting off it.
Regarding the death penalty, theres doesn't have to actually be collateral damage, there is circumstances where people are guilty without any doubt, where people are caught red handed, hostage situations, gun men, people that have been under police surveillance, in the case we are talking about there is no doubt of guilt, they even admit it, they even admit this was not the first time.
Anyway thats about it for me, i won't change your mind or anyone else's and nobody will change mine.
Fair enough, Indo.... Still luv ya, bro...... But an old proverb, I think chinese, is not to be rock, but to be bamboo.... Bamboo is flexible, and can bend in a storm.....
And keep in mind those chinese lived with opium for thousands of years without drama..... BTW, I have never taken any opiate or derivative for recreation... I may have at some stage had some in a hospital...
Re' alcohol... It's not just the deaths, indo.... It's the bashed women, raped women the brutalised kids, the coward punches, the maimed bodies, the cars wrapped around polls and lives changed forever, innocent drivers smashed into, the broken families and broken careers, the cost of courts and divorces and lawyers.... Alcohol goes beyond a death statistic...
Cheers, mate......
The point that making such people (Bali Bombings etc) martyrs via death penalty is irrevevant I reckon. Whether their reality plays out or not the bottom line is they are no longer a burden on society in any way or shape........
As Stu said before they were taking the Heroin out of Indonesia and into Aust, AFP tipped of the Indo's ......
why wouldn't they want to sit back let the couriers enter Aust .....observe....then bust the whole fucking syndicate ? Isnt that what there supposed to do.
Old boy Rush did his bit via his lawyer to the AFP ...direct......Pft ...not via some drug reporting tip off ph line.........I feel for him.
Sheepdog wrote:Fair enough, Indo.... Still luv ya, bro...... But an old proverb, I think chinese, is not to be rock, but to be bamboo.... Bamboo is flexible, and can bend in a storm.....
And keep in mind those chinese lived with opium for thousands of years without drama..... BTW, I have never taken any opiate or derivative for recreation... I may have at some stage had some in a hospital...
Re' alcohol... It's not just the deaths, indo.... It's the bashed women, raped women the brutalised kids, the coward punches, the maimed bodies, the cars wrapped around polls and lives changed forever, innocent drivers smashed into, the broken families and broken careers, the cost of courts and divorces and lawyers.... Alcohol goes beyond a death statistic...
Cheers, mate......
Yeah True that, thats the thing that makes me undecided on the whole deal with drugs in Australia issue, on one hand i agree that the war on drugs isn't one that can be won, especially when your laws and sentencing in Australia is to put it nicely piss weak, then on the other hand the recreational drugs we have legalised like Alcohol and tobacco still do cause huge problems or possibly more problems like the examples you've given, people say drugs in themselves aren't harmful its because there illegal that we have problems pushing the price up making them expensive hence problems with related crime.
But alcohol and tobacco proves that you still have huge problems when legal or relatively cheap, the Ice epidemic proves that, its not an expensive drug but look at all the problems that is causing.
Maybe in Australia its time to test the waters and legalise pot, but at the same time come down harder on other drugs in particular heroin?
That probably sounds like i have conflicting views, but the way i look at it, theres no point having a half arced soft approach, you've either got to come down really hard and give no mercy or legalise it and deal with the issues that come along with doing that.
udo wrote:As Stu said before they were taking the Heroin out of Indonesia and into Aust, AFP tipped of the Indo's ......
why wouldn't they want to sit back let the couriers enter Aust .....observe....then bust the whole fucking syndicate ? Isnt that what there supposed to do.
Old boy Rush did his bit via his lawyer to the AFP ...direct......Pft ...not via some drug reporting tip off ph line.........I feel for him.
Yeah I do feel for his old man.
The only reason I can think of is they know they will get off light in OZ and not discourage others, you have to think they actually believe in the Indonesian system otherwise why not just pick them up at this end?
Rabbits68 wrote:The point that making such people (Bali Bombings etc) martyrs via death penalty is irrevevant I reckon. Whether their reality plays out or not the bottom line is they are no longer a burden on society in any way or shape........
If there shot by a women doesn't that stuff up there whole martyr deal? and rob them of there 17 virgins or whatever it is….Im sure there would be plenty of women happy to take a few shots.
udo wrote:As Stu said before they were taking the Heroin out of Indonesia and into Aust, AFP tipped of the Indo's ......
why wouldn't they want to sit back let the couriers enter Aust .....observe....then bust the whole fucking syndicate ? Isnt that what there supposed to do.
Old boy Rush did his bit via his lawyer to the AFP ...direct......Pft ...not via some drug reporting tip off ph line.........I feel for him.
I was told that the AFP were pushing hard to get the Indonesians to cooperate to help 'Stop The Boats'.
When they got the intel on the Bali 9, the AFP could not wait to shop them to the Indonesians, as a gift. To encourage the Indonesians to help out on stymying the refugees.
Gday, Indo..... Yeah the whole drugs debate is enough to make one takes drugs lol......
Through my 48 1/2 years on this festering rock hurtling along, there's one thing I have noticed that I reckon is fair dinkum.....
Drug addicts are sad people, not bad people..... When one is 17, 18, 20, 24, and they turn to whatever drug to escape reality, one has to ask "why are you escaping reality"? Doesn't matter whether it is alcohol, heroin, pot, whatever, "why are you escaping your own reality every day"???
It's because they are sad unhappy unfulfilled people..... The drug allows them to put distance between them and the pain they feel whether it be a conscious or a subconscious pain.... So the bottomline is, when I see an addict, I don't see a bad person, I see a sad and sick person.... Criminals dealers target these weakened individuals..... They always will, unless we hand addiction over to the medical profession and away from law enforcement..... Then at least an initially sad person wont turn into a bad person, as they have to turn to crime to support their escapism....
Interesting read on Andrew Chans other organised and failed drug run to Hong kong http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2869230/Bali-Nine-ringleader-And...
I Just read the whole thing Indo D, up until now I really didn't know what I believed was the right decision. But after reading that and knowing now that Chan had run previous heroin smuggling deals and full well knew the risks of getting caught in an Asian country with drugs, I honestly think that the world doesn't need people like him in it. Im still undecided about Myuran.
Chan couldn't give a fuck about the people who od'd and died off the drugs he sold, or the younger couriers he talked into going.
He played the game and eventually lost... Simple
I concur with goofyfoot although I'm natural haha They ruined so many lives, I hope they give up the big wigs behind it before they are exterminated. I'm sure some SW people have known someone who died from smack. Bullets for them the sooner the better.
Looks like these 2 are up next.......
Checked out the island where they are getting executed - looks like it gets waves. Not many setups, though 2 bays on the eastern side. The compound looks like its in the middle on the south side of the island, atleast they will smell the sea air when they get the bullet.
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Nusa+Kambangan+Island,+Indonesia/@-7.7674623,109.0060257,14z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x2e650c8fdb6518f7:0x2d327c00e4bbe57a
Interesting someone just got off the death penalty, but he was a local, and had money.
Geez Mick im sure they will be stoked with that news..............
Fuckn crap..i am no racist but this is bullsheet.if the rolls were reversed we'd fuckin cave!!
I hear ya barley the indo's have more backbone than out weak as piss government.
Was watchin the abc last night and they had some hipster artist who's been pleadin the bald guys case and tutoring him in art, talking about how he and baldy teach these great art classes going on in the prison now and how once baldy gets the bullet the whole thing will fall apart, apparently hipster artist is just going to drop the art classes and move onto the next bleeding hearts cause, not worth doing if he aint going to be interviewed.
He also let slip one thing that stamped out any compassion that I may have had for baldy, apparently he stopped feeling any guilt for what he had done years ago and felt he had served enough time.
Fuck baldy, your new mates aren't really doing you any favours are they!
Mick the guy who got off was running an ice factory in Surabaya and was caught with 11kg. His sentence was reduced to fifteen years and he will probably be out in eight. The story is in the SMH subscriber edition but doesn't seem to be on their web site. I can't say I feel any sympathy for the two individuals. I have lost family and friends to heroin ODs, but I oppose the death penalty anywhere anytime. On that score the US has a much worse record than Indonesia. It botched two executions last year so the victims took 20 minutes to die. They have executed a man with the intellectual capacity of an 11 year old and have one proven and numerous suspected cases of executing an innocent person. In this case both governments have behaved shamefully.
Yep we have all lost people we know to the big H...I can off the top of my head think of 3 [ one deceased] Australians surfers still active in the surfboard industry/surfing legends who imported heroin into Aust in the mid to late 1970s for there own financial gain.............and destroyed lives and and caused o.d.death to many on the streets of Coolangatta.
Why do so many Aussies feel it is OK to tell Indo how to run THEIR country? Why so much main stream media doing so? Why so many pollies? Why so much from average joe aussie(s) across the internet and social media?
Imagine if it was the other way around ... most of these people, journo's, pollies, joe public who are all so vocal now would be pissed that another country was trying to tell us, Australia, what to do ...
Horrid precedent is being set here ... very difficult for Australia to now turn around and tell others to mind their own business next time there is an "issue" of international sensitivity?
Don't get me wrong, I believe EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion. From religion to death penalty, etc ... but, to go so far as to lobby and pressure another country and its government when the laws are VERY CLEAR?
As a stupid example, but to highlight the point ... imagine people coming here and deciding to drive on the right hand side of the road "because that's what happens in their country" ... the chaos, the impact? Yep, stupid example, but simple to simply highlight the point.
Each country has THEIR rules, THEIR laws ... you travel their, you respect them. Simple.
Why do so many think it is OK now, on this issue, to tell another country what to do?
Could be executed by firing in around 7 days.