Andrew Chan - Myuran Sukumaran
Sickaz, if you read the comments on social media and news articles, you'll see a lot of Australians do support the death penalty. A lot of those same ppl are asking for mercy in this case though... Go figure.
For what it's worth, I don't support capital punishment.
If you guys feel that way you should really make a stance apparently Aussie surfers are doing a Mentawai boycott until Indonesia scraps the death penalty, apparently Mentawai is the target because it shows how serious they are that they are willing to miss out on some of the best waves in the world, and boycotting the Mentawai's won't hurt the local people like it could hurt innocent Balinese, because well the Mentawai people get screwed anyway and don't get jack shit from the boats or resorts.
I don't think the public sympathy in any way suggests that these two walk free (I've never heard that suggestion anyway), sympathy for two men facing a death penalty is entirely justified, the UN doesn't support the death penalty in these sort of cases nor do most nations. I'm glad to see some progressive nations with the moral backbone to withdraw diplomatic ties with Indonesia for continuing barbaric practices and ridiculous sentencing laws regarding drugs, hopefully one day they will succumb to international pressure and genuine legal debate.
BB where do you draw the line for forgiveness and ability to be rehabilitated for 'despicable profiteers on human misery?' 18kilos of herion or the 8.3kilos they actually tried to import (of which none caused any human misery except their own), 1.7 kilos of ice importation attempted by Michael Sacatide in 2011 (he must have missed the Corby and Bali nine publicity indo dreaming)? What is the measure of the human misery you are talking about bb? Is this offset by the number of people who might have had a good time?
I don't agree with the death penalty for these guys as I've made abundantly clear, what I do object to is the disproportionate media coverage the case attracts in Australia while the Indonesian government continue genocide in west papua. 500,000 killed, innumerable tortured and driven off there homelands, their villages destroyed..... now there's your human misery, is such a fucking embarrassment to Indonesia and Australia it will never make a mainstream media report let alone the constant coverage of these two guys.
Not sure that there is anything there I would disagree with silicun. Media coverage created the public sympathy. As for drawing lines, well 8.3 or 18 makes no difference there, well over then line!
Your right bb, the media coverage generates the public sympathy, makes good copy, sells articles and in the grand scale of things a fairly inane, tabloid type story.
As for the amount, my only interest in this thread is from the point of prohibition and i don't buy the human misery propaganda associated with the drug. There has to be some responsibility with the user and although im not saying there is no responsibility with the supplier, it is impossible to connect the supplier with a specific point of misery, death or crime on the user in cases where there is so much distance between the two. Heroin is a drug safer in terms of physiological harm than many more acceptable and even legal drugs. Its danger comes from dosage (the minute difference between a safe and a lethal dose), prohibition of a drug like this is what makes it dangerous as the strength of the product on the street/unregulated is never known. The stigma comes form the mode of delivery and prohibition propaganda, no one seems to blink an eye at the tens of thousands of people injecting steroids (far more harmful physiologically) daily but wacking up a shot of smack and your a junkie scum (see reefer madness). Opiates have to be regulated across the board, they're already available over the counter and used extensively in medicine. The illegal market expanded by the US military to fund various criminal and non criminal organizations can only be undermined by pushing back against prohibition. Until then indots like these guys will remain tabloid fodder while the real profiteers laugh all the way to the bank.
lostdoggy wrote:Sickaz, if you read the comments on social media and news articles, you'll see a lot of Australians do support the death penalty. A lot of those same ppl are asking for mercy in this case though... Go figure.
For what it's worth, I don't support capital punishment.
Many Australians are also racist, many Australians rip people off and think nothing of it. Thankfully the majority of Australians are of high moral character and can recognise the obvious hypocrisy in punishing someone with death or physical harm. We as humans can do a lot better than that.
blindboy wrote:I oppose the executions sickaz, just as I oppose the death penalty everywhere but I think the public sympathy generated for these two is misplaced. They are despicable profiteers on human misery. The death penalty degrades all involved in it but for me, they could rot in a stinking dungeon for the rest of their natural lives. Forgiveness? Rehabilitation? Not for 18kg of heroin.
You do not have to forgive them, although forgiving is very healing and future friendly, I believe in justice and punishment - you can forgive someone and still punish them. To be forgiven is hugely empowering and a very positive action. IMO.
I believe these two would be rehabilitated in terms of repeating the same mistake - drug crime. Have they served an appropriate amount of time? Most would say no including myself. If the sentence was to die in prison I would find that harsh but I would not oppose it. Death I think is just wrong.
Sickaz][quote=lostdoggy wrote:Many Australians are also racist, many Australians rip people off and think nothing of it. Thankfully the majority of Australians are of high moral character and can recognise the obvious hypocrisy in punishing someone with death or physical harm. We as humans can do a lot better than that.
they might recognise the hypocrisy but they still dont give a shit. sure if you ask them what they think - they will say "oh thats terrible", two seconds later its all forgotten. aussies are just in it for the hype. there is no moral highground running on this and those that claim a moral highground should look in their own backyard first.
happyasS][quote=Sickaz wrote:lostdoggy wrote:Many Australians are also racist, many Australians rip people off and think nothing of it. Thankfully the majority of Australians are of high moral character and can recognise the obvious hypocrisy in punishing someone with death or physical harm. We as humans can do a lot better than that.
they might recognise the hypocrisy but they still dont give a shit. sure if you ask them what they think - they will say "oh thats terrible", two seconds later its all forgotten. aussies are just in it for the hype. there is no moral highground running on this and those that claim a moral highground should look in their own backyard first.
In terms of this issue alone there is a higher ground. I have a moral objection to this, I have looked in my own backyard and there are no dead drug dealers I'm pretty sure of that.
Yes it is a hyped issue perhaps beyond its real importance and of course it will be forgotten, until it happens again. That is what I mean, it is not acceptable and to say fuck it and there is no higher ground, that is a cop out.
there should always a be higher ground if not we are in a state of regression and the high moral ground we should be striving for won't be getting any closer it will be getting further and further away.
I always find it weird that people can be so against the death sentence but don't have a problem with locking someone up in prison for life which in a way although not grotesque is a form of torture, then to make it worse in countries like Australia the system takes away the prisoners own right to decide if they want to end their own life…weird world.
indo-dreaming wrote:I always find it weird that people can be so against the death sentence but don't have a problem with locking someone up in prison for life which in a way although not grotesque is a form of torture, then to make it worse in countries like Australia the system takes away the prisoners own right to decide if they want to end their own life…weird world.
I think that some people against the death penalty would be of the belief the judicial system can be flawed, and hence mistakes are made in the form of innocent people imprisoned. At least in a life sentence the possibility exists the wrongly accused can be set free, when obviously that option doesn't exist with the death penalty.
$130K AUD could have saved them apparently.....
http://www.theage.com.au/world/they-wanted-130000--and-then-more-explosi...
stunet wrote:
indo-dreaming wrote:I always find it weird that people can be so against the death sentence but don't have a problem with locking someone up in prison for life which in a way although not grotesque is a form of torture, then to make it worse in countries like Australia the system takes away the prisoners own right to decide if they want to end their own life…weird world.
I think that some people against the death penalty would be of the belief the judicial system can be flawed, and hence mistakes are made in the form of innocent people imprisoned. At least in a life sentence the possibility exists the wrongly accused can be set free, when obviously that option doesn't exist with the death penalty.
As well as whacking up inside for the rest of your life, not too bad I suppose.
good point Stu..how many prisoners have now been let out of prison in the USA based on DNA testing??
Seems like there is one person a week aquitted after 20-30 yrs in jail in the USA......
If ,as some postees have put ....big sentences for dealers are needed....lets be rational and make possession of a prohibited drug at least an automatic jail sentence...as dealers are just servicing a market that already exists.....users should be punished like dealers.......or......we could try the Portugul formula......
I think you are right brutus, the mistake western nations have made is they want drugs to be illegal to protect their children, but they don't want the punishments to be too severe ......... In case their children get caught. The choice, in terms of reducing the damage drugs do, is between legal and seriously illegal. Personally I am for decriminalisation but at the same time I know a mandatory 5 year jail sentence for possession would greatly reduce drug use. Scale it up from there for commercial quantities. It is pretty much the situation in Japan and drugs are much less of a problem. There are probably also some cultural factors involved in keeping drug use low but the current situation in Australia is illogical and needs to be totally reconsidered, but don't hold your breath.
blindboy wrote:Personally I am for decriminalisation but at the same time I know a mandatory 5 year jail sentence for possession would greatly reduce drug use. Scale it up from there for commercial quantities. It is pretty much the situation in Japan and drugs are much less of a problem.
Zen
Again?
Honestly what a load of political crap as well of................!
Dunno Welly, so far removed from the drug scene here I couldn't say. A few of the local fellas smoke a bit of weed but keep it pretty low key. Heaps of truckies take Shabu and the Japanese love to self medicate with legal stuff from the chemist, but Asian drugs seem to have a lower efficacy compared to western drugs so that's probably why they take more or seems quite prevalent (I'm speculating).
Some finance guys I know in Tokyo are quite into their coke but they're foreigners, I've only met a couple of natives who indulge.
So that's about the extent of my knowledge of the Japanese drug culture, 4/5's of FA.
As for me, clean as a whistle;)
PS Pills and trips, bit gets around the music festivals but again, mostly foreigners. Stupid really, drug laws are very strict- you can be held for 24 days here without charge.
Also, 0% tolerance for drink driving, $10k fine in addition to losing your license . That's why there's heaps of hit and runs:)
ah Zen..Japan is like another planet.....when I was last in Japan last Nov......my boss got blind and drove me back to the hotel..with the owner of Dove wetsuits.....as soon as we stopped at red light he jumped and got a taxi....found out next day that if the cops stopped us I was as guilty as the drunk driver,because I let him drive and I was as guilty as him and would have been locked up with him...faaarrrrk....
Remember when Paigey got busted for a tab of LSD...he spent 6 mths in prison awaiting trial and was deported with a 3 yr sentence hanging over him......tuffest jails in the western world.....heavy!
Having said that there is an underground drug scene in japan....so hush hush.....as the penalties are soo heavy usually jail time and also the loss of face...and humiliation of being a criminal in Japan....
has anyone studied the Portugul model...where ALL drugs are legal??
Thanx for the info Zen.
IMO if you play with fire you will get burnt, end of story really.
Its not just in Indo, look at Singapore! Cannings, hangings?
When I worked over in Singapore a few years ago doing some rope access work on ship in the straight.
We had some local junk with a V8 in it as our stand by rescue boat, they literally were position under us the whole time yelling "fall Welly fall, we will save you". haha.
Anyways the skipper was a young Singaporean probably only 24 years old, he told me a story that he was in a nightclub grooving along when an under cover cop came up to him dragged him outside and drug tested him positive for ecstasy! He had been given a pill from a friend, had nothing on him at all, then spent 2 years in jail. When he got out he had to wear an electronic bracelet for 6 months , whilst being monitored on his where abouts........
I know a bloke who was in a nightclub over there grooving along as well, apparently he only bump a local girl whilst dancing, she screamed, the bouncers grabbed him handed him over to the local constabulary.
Got 12 canes across the back, oouuccchhh.
I know these are not stories regarding death but they are rules in other countries that we as travellers have to abide by..........
brutus wrote:Remember when Paigey got busted for a tab of LSD...he spent 6 mths in prison awaiting trial and was deported with a 3 yr sentence hanging over him......tuffest jails in the western world.....heavy!
has anyone studied the Portugul model...where ALL drugs are legal??
Yeah meet Paigey in Ulladulla there awhile back, great surfer and good cat for sure, he talked to me about his ordeal, heavy shit.
Portugal model sounds great Brutus, similar to Amsterdam....?
Geez I might move there:)
Done.
Mick Keelty.......did you have a good night sleep..........are you going to church this Sunday .
I wonder if the media have interviewed the families with the old chestnut of 'How do you feel'
udo wrote:Done.
Mick Keelty.......did you have a good night sleep..........are you going to church this Sunday .
Yes, lets hear now the full story as to why the AFP did the deed. I want to know who authorised him to do it; was it the minister?
And to give the "3 day warning" re' executions on ANZAC day...... Nice touch :/
So 2 Australians died before a firing squad in Indo.....the AFP did not catch A & M's boss.....as the AFP tipped off the Indos........and Mr Big gets away scott free......Coruption!
Corruption in Indo...Judges offered $'s ......but Jakarta over rule the bribe.......
why are we surprised ,Indo is 3 rd world Muslim country...has different values to Western society...is very corrupt.......that's why I will not go to Indo....having personally witnessed some of the corruption....fark if Indo didn't have waves would we even bother!!
Indo is no longer really a third world country. Their economy will overtake Australia's soon and within the next 20 odd years they will be a bigger player than Aus.
I still can't believe all the fuss over this. All the feckn do-gooders and there hypocritical statements over a couple of drug smugglers. There are worse things going on throughout the world on a daily, if not hourly, basis that doesn't even raise an eyebrow.
A couple of weeks this will all be forgotten.
"within the next 20 odd years they will be a bigger player than Aus."
I doubt that.... It's geography will always hold it back.... Poverty, crime and corruption will always be rife... A rebel here, an earthquake there, islands hard to police, the odd volcano... Indonesia will always be chaotic....
so fitzy...you believe that for any and all drug smugglers the death penalty is appropriate....??
Would you then....using your logic in sentencing......should be an automatic jail sentence for possession of any quantity of illegal drugs?
and so Indi is not a 3rd world country because of the size of its economy...huh??
"so fitzy...you believe that for any and all drug smugglers the death penalty is appropriate....??"
Nope, I think the penalty is pretty harsh, but everywhere you go in Indo, every airport, on your visa application, it is there in plain English what the penalties are if you get caught. They took the risk and got caught. Why would it be a surprise to them or anyone else. Why would they be so special compared to anyone else.
You do a crime in Australia, you know the risks if you get caught. You of all people know that Brutus.
Tell me, how would the Australian people and its government react if Indonesia tried to enforce its will on Australia in similar circumstance? We would tell Indo to get fecked and respect our laws and judicial system.
I believe that we are hypocritical and arrogant thinking we can do the same to Indonesia. Weather there system is right or wrong, it is their country to run it how they see fit.
I'm not getting into a discussion or debate about drugs and penalties because I believe world wide the war on drugs is a pathetic joke.
My opinion is just that, my opinion. Right or wrong.
Fitzy....the fact that 8 foreigners were executed.....Indonesians get clemency.....a Pilipino has her sentence commuted because of the intervention of their PM.....
how may muslims were executed..??
its amazing Chan became a Christian minister after 6 years of theological study and mentored and helped many fellow prisoners.....and became a mentor!
Sukumaran completed an Arts degree and became a good artist and also a Christian.
Both prisoners refused a blindfold and sang as they were being killed...amazing grace being one of the songs......the Pastor who was present was blown away ...how happy the 2 were to meet their God....now that's Faith and ya can't fake that!!
I wonder if they converted to Islam....if there would be clemency???
all this means is there is no consistency from Indonesias Judiciary system...and everybody knows ya can usually buy your way out any problem in Indo...why??
because its 3rd world country....and corruption is rife !
Oh yeah 'cause there is absolutely no corruption, executions or miscarriage of justice in your beloved USofA is there Brutus..........'cause they're a first world good Christian country with no fault.
Hypocrite.
For me, the interesting thing was that on all media, this incident got more coverage than 5000 people being killed in Nepal and the obvious help it needs.
Can anyone tell me one benefit heroin can give to a human, maybe an od in a euphanasia case. They were greedy, got caught and were used as a lesson to other western organised drug crime groups.
Religion had no bearing and yes all the hype around corruption maybe true, but while I would have preferred them a life sentence in jail, they paid the price for greed in a known area where they knew the penalties to this issue were high.
Two aussie drug/ crime men shot, big news when we struggle with an ice/alcohol problem in australia, and we would call them the worst of the worst if we caught them in australia. Especially if their heroin had gotten out into the community and killed people.
Media coverage huge as is outrage, yet thousands of nepales are dead tonight and many sleeping out in open. puts it into perspective really.
I dont support the death sentence but I do support stopping people making profits selling heroin to anyone.
fitzroy-21 wrote:Oh yeah 'cause there is absolutely no corruption, executions or miscarriage of justice in your beloved USofA is there Brutus..........'cause they're a first world good Christian country with no fault.
Hypocrite.
C'mon fitzy....you said Indo is not a 3rd world country , even though we give $600m in aid...to the poor.....because their economy is bigger than ours......and now I'm a hypocrite because I love working in the USA ,because of their acceptance of me as a designer shaper ...and ya stretch it to ,"'cause they're a first world good Christian country with no fault."............when did I say that??
In fact I believe the opposite......anyhow it seems you like havin a crack at me...no problems ...but try and use logic not emotional dribble!
Not that much emotion Brutus. Just fact. You were stating how corrupt Indo was and I was just pointing out the US is no different, it could be argued that they are worse with corruption, executions and miscarriage of justice. I mean, FFS, I'm pretty sure they still use the electric chair in one state. How inhumane and brutal is that. And they sit on so called "death row" for how many years? I could have used other countries as an example, but you had recently commented on how good the US is and how bogan Aus is.
There are worse atrocities going on throughout the world right now that get zero air time and we are kicking up a fuss about a couple of drug smugglers that got caught knowing full well the consequences.
As I stated before, my opinion is just that, my opinion.
fitzy my comments on Australia and USA..were only to do with the surf industry......we have tall poppy here , they have the opposite which is easy for me as they respect what I do and who I am......having made Kellys board for his first world title and Tom Currens when he won from Trials to world champ.....I have a long history there and a lot of respect.......I really hammer the seppos on their gun laws and racist attitudes.......Love working in the USA.......but love living in Australia...so much so I have semi-retired here now.....
I just get pretty antsy when people just dismiss ,"ah they did the crime ,they knew" , but the death sentence?
25 yr old Peter Gardner an Aussie caught trying to leave China with 30kgs ice last November in court today.
Howd you reckn the girl with him got off udo?
an interesting political perspective with some history n facts n shit
http://www.pipingshrike.com/2015/04/the-new-regionalism-another-update.html
Widodo has lifted the foreign media restrictions in Papua.
udo wrote:Widodo has lifted the foreign media restrictions in Papua.
He also announced 400 Million USD for infrastructure projects in West Papua yesterday.
Both I think are good moves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasberg_mine
.. hmm and I wonder what his intentions may be?
Foreign Correspondent tonight - saving Mary Jane from the firing squad .
Could be executed by firing in around 7 days.