Solar Power systems

Southey, I don't have monitoring but I've spent hours watching the led display in all extremes including
45 deg. heat waves , it shows total kws since new, total so far today , and continuously shows how much its generating, I've never seen it go into limp mode or do anything else and for the first year or so it was like a new toy and I was checking it every five minutes. The heat sink barely even feels warm to touch.
It's only a cheapo sunteams with only one string so I can't have more panels facing away from West,
but I'm happy with the output.

Udo ,
I would be VERY wary of anyone offering something for " nothing up front " . That alone should have you skeptical ... I think they do 15 year contracts or whatever . Personally I think people would be better off redrawing on their home loan if possible ... Even opening a second mortgage or refinancing the first would seem a better option .
As for their " no site visit - quote " policy , this wreaks of " additional costs " come install or worse still corners cut to keep the install within " their " budget...
I'm no computer wizard ( my poor quoting , links and general typing gives that away ) . But I've been using Satellite images for a very long time ' for Other. Purposes ' and I'm yet to find a technique that allows me to see internal roof spaces , location and internal switchboard details .... But " apparently " they have this new ( magical technique ) that gives them a technical edge over someone with 20 years experience in Electrical contracting and is really handy with a tape measure and Autocad .
Just remember , you don't have to be a tradesman , electrician or whatever to be a " system " designer .
It's a 3 day course ....
My point is , sure it's important to have a professional outfit to undertake your design and install .
Just be careful of companies that are all " shoe polish & no socks " ... This isn't specifically aimed at Sungevity ...

wellymon wrote:

Classic Southey.....
And no ....
I can't argue at all, when it comes to literature ;)
Love it.............

"Anyway obviously (unless you argue with BB in the climate thread ) the earth is a sphere , and above this sphere we have the atmosphere that follows the curvature of the earth , anyway the sun averages about 1380watts per square meter outside the atmosphere . On a clear day ' generally speak ' ( moisture / water vapour / humidity will effect this , think contrails ) , well an hour or either side of solar noon the average on a clear day is 1000 watts per square meter . Basically the suns rays have to travel through roughly 1.5 times the length of atmosphere when the suns lower in the sky . "
.
I think you know more Southey ;)
Respect

Since you requoted that , I noticed I was vague in the middle of it ...

On perfect days , ( no cloud , low humidity , low upper atmosphere water vapour ) , around noon you'll receive roughly 1000watts per square meter ( AT THE EARTHS SURFACE ) . And at some really elevated ground and really optimal times it could and has peaked at 1080 at certain places irregularly .
Generally speaking though it'll usually be around 800-900 w/m2 ... And lower again from things like salt air haze , dust etc etc ....
Contrails are a tell tale of that , especially in recent years that we have seen less insolation peaks ( in Aust. ) anyways . It ties in with lower , middle and upper atmosphere water vapour . And going right out on a limb seems to mirror the IPO - PDO's effect on ENSO and ultimately our cloud cover , precip's and even temps in a 30-40 year cycle ...
Anyway , a topic for another thread ...
But all of the above has me pushing Mono over Poly in all but the warmest climates . And where excessive optimum roof space is available , amorphous is a good option . Both for new systems for at least the next 5-10 years . These two , Mono and amorphous work better in lower wattage per square meter levels . ( think 200-400 watt /m2 ..
None of this is proven , just my opinion . Which is clearly not empirical ...

Poly = polycrystalline . ( usually blue speckled to purple in colour , there are also quasi mono which are very close to black but for all intense purposes actually poly's )

Mono= Monocrystalline . ( usually black even in colour , although some look a little speckled and closer to a blackish purple . Old mono's were always hexagonal ( which is how the crystal naturally cultures ) or half hexagonal ( cut in half ) . Lately they have increased the sizes or adjusted methods of culture and they too can now be square ... Often the off cuts go towards the quasi's manufacture , Or high end poly's .

All good Southey, Interesting info :)
Thanx again, I have to read your posts and others a few times to really get to grips, no offense champ as I find this whole thread a great information bank, thanks to Udo, for starting it off.
I will continue to fire you questions especially when I come close to purchasing..;)
Cool stuff :)

Hey had cool lttle surfs the last 2 mornings, got the sore wing rolling over in 2-3ft waves, nice little waves for sure, got my mojo back, stoked. Been missing the stoke;)

Tell me about it .. That first empty wave photo in that Vic spread from this morning is my preferred hunting ground in these types of swells . Was painful to see that knowing if I had of got there I would of been doing everything in my power to be inside it ....
None the less , the offshore was a little strong for my liking ... I know , not an excuse ... But The paper work I had to do instead will get me paid for a month or two's work previous , end of month / year deadlines and all ... Bad timing .
As for my posts , don't worry I regularly lose myself whilst typing them .....
PS perhaps do some trimming and take photos after for more specific info on array location , orientation , tilt , yada yada yada ...

ABC 1 Four Corners tonight at 8.30 pm compulsory viewing or later on iview.

Yeah good pickup Floyd .
Much of that show isn't news to yourself and others here .
The " Apple " , part was an eye opener . Biggest private PV array on earth . Interestingly the array farm was probably 10-20 x the size of the data centre building , which mirrors what I was saying about Data centres .
You could imagine how big Google , Facebook etc etc 's data centres would have to be .. Until things get way further advanced , I have serious reservations about " cloud " computing and it's footprint on society .
Apart from that , electric cars may " save " the electricity grid as we know it , for mine having your own power station ( PV, batteries , car charger , wind , backup Genny , and the grid ) makes me feel more empowered [pardon the pun ] no matter what life throws forward at you .

I watched what really goes on in Bali.

Environment shmirement, what's the problem we got shit loads of coal and uranium.

For me, the program reconfirmed two long held beliefs: (1.) the coal industry is doomed; its a dirty industry based on last century's technology; and (2.) the future tears up the current power industry structure/model; in the future individuals, communities and corporations will take control of (own) their power generation and distribution systems in massive numbers.

Little wonder the coal industry here is fighting anything to do with renewables. Don't get me started on Abbott/Hunt, again.

Shaun,
When they build nuclear plants they tend to build them right near the biggest power users ...
Uranium trucked through your area to the first reactor at Portland ( to feed the Aluminium smelter) .
You still a fan of Nuclear.
PS I'm not against it , but I would only support it's usage if the reactors were built where they mined it.

Southey,

As you well know Portland is a very industrial landscape everywhere you go there is some form of man made contraption be it a smelter , wind generator or quarry. The only way to blend into the landscape around this neck of the woods is to wear a hi vis vest. So a bit more industry down here can only be a good thing. Wouldn't it be great to have a reactor just south of the smelter, pumping all that warm water out into the current sweeping toward town. Sounds win win to me, I say we set up the worlds first world heritage national industrial park.

Floyd,
All I got from that show was that bogan hunters could have saved a lot of time and money in their search for Australia's biggest bogan by going to Bali.
(and to beat Southey to the punch "or Portland")

hey shaun,

The economics of that smelter you mention do not bear close scrutiny. Only viable because of the massive rebates it gets for its Latrobe Valley generated (coal) electricity. While there is no doubt its good for employment in town and elsewhere a win win for the planet would be for it to close along with those coal powered generators. I know that sounds brutal for the future of Portland and Gippsland towns dependant on the power industry but that is what the medium term future looks like. Smart money would already have left any investment with exposure to these last century dirty industries and the towns in which they are located notwithstanding what current government and industry representatives say; the argument has already been lost.

Shaun , I love Portland , good fishing there .... shame theres no surf . :( Gippsland has it all really ...

Gippsland Ah the memories, just left the joint last january, 1 year at lk tyers beearch, what an arse of place to be a surfer apart from those rare solid SE swells when the left at bluff joint pumps, nice friendly locals but, who fizz at the bung when its head high. i really wanted to move to traralgon so I could breath that fresh coal fired air 24 7 . But I had to settle for the naki again.,

I got solar hot water on me roof in naki, cost farkin 5 G , we get our hoops stretched in NZ for solar . Thinkn i might import from straya for my next solar mish

Out on the love boat Udo, been watching some nice swell criuse by the NW cape the last 3 days on the way to indo.
40-50 humpbacks and other whales passing by all day, sometimes they look up and say "Free Willy"

Some interesting stats in this discussion paper. Until we can efficiently (and cheaply) store solar power during the night, I can't see how it can take as much of the % of power generation as alluded to in this article:

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/07/01/bnef-renewable-energys-about-to-domi...

Don - have you checked out solar thermal with 'heat' batteries?

An article in today's Conversation about the dropping price of batteries: 

http://theconversation.com/affordable-batteries-for-green-energy-are-closer-than-we-think-28772

Little lightweight but a few good links.

Cheers Stu.
More info is good info:)

Problem is - we need the grid, for energy security and to allow for getting energy from the most efficient source, particularly in a renewables system. If everyone goes off-line, we will end up with a worse outcome. Problem is - the way the grid is set up and regulated doesn't easily allow small and med generators to enter the game.

The other issue with solar is whether solar stacks up on EROI or net energy to meet our high and variable demands. Doesn't look it at this stage - ie. cant replace fossil fuels. See below, including a d a paper covering work done in melbourne demonstrating this.

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/ockhamsrazor/energy-in-aust...

http://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/5/4/1406

mcbain, where I live I need a generator...!
Last week whilst I was offshore we had back burning that got out of control, hence grid power was cut off for 3 days...?
No water from our tanks to be pumped into our house, no biocycle running (which does not matter too much, but refrigeration a big key...!
All good tho I run a generator to keep the pork roast's frozen and to flush poohs down the toilet;)

I know the feeling. I haven't got mains water or sewer either. The other grid issues!

udo wrote:

Interesting that when grid connected and producing daily solar power and a power outage occurs its not possible to access the power you are generating.......you are powerless with the rest of the suburb ?

Southey is it possible to splice in before the meter to access a 12 volt supply and connect a small inverter [2-3000w] to run kitchen appliances for those times when the grid is down ?

Most Inverters actually do the " anti islanding " isolation function when you lose power .... not the meter .
So if you have grid , very rarely is the Solar DC voltages 12 V . And usually anywhere between 200V and 550V DC comes form the PV panels to the Inverters .
12V , 24V and 48V are typical voltages of Off grid systems .

Anyway there are a few units that actually have a " essential " output supply that will stay on in an outage .
Generally speaking , most Supply Authorities will not allow things/ appliances / circuits to be permanently connected to these outputs . Generally speaking , some installers will put a Red Power point below the inverter in which " essential / emergency power can be used .
Other options include a manual bypass switch which will bring circuits feeding fridges , freezers , microwaves , Gas HWS electronic ignitions etc etc .... with larger PV installations on clear days washing machines , toasters , evap. coolers can be ran .... If your careful anything except for Airconditioners and Ovens can be used ....
Good Link Stu ....
I think the best part of that article was the contribution in the comments section ;-)

Southey, Italian made ABB inverters....?
Any thoughts champ.

Sorry Welly .... Just saw this .

Yeah they are good . I mentioned that most good retailers carry them as an option .

Being Italian manufactured they are cheaper but still of the European standard manufacture .
Italy has some of the lowest labour costs in Western Europe .

Don has one , they also used to go under the banner " Power One " / Aurora .
ABB bought them out , which is a good thing as they are a Swiss electrical manufacturing giant .
( very good for long term warranty ) .
Another electrical giant to buy out someone smaller was Schneider buying out Xantrex . Unfortunately the German giant has maybe bumped the price up of them . But in saying that they haven't just parked the brand under their umbrella they have also spent alot of money improving their range including some new products .

Southey, hows it going champ,
Keep on getting emails from these guys...?
Heres the link, what are your thoughts on their product, ie the 4.5kw, Sungrow Inverter, and DAQO panels...? Is $5,700 all up a good price...?

http://www.energymatters.com.au/specials/queensland-solar-power-special/

Much appreciated Welly:)

good thanx welly ,

yeah energy matters /apollo energy are one of the bigger mobs .
i can't see the exact system that you looked at , as it has refreshed to their new deal .....
4.5kw is sizey for you , but if you want to max out your roof space then it could work ....
I can guarantee you that their " offer " will not be exactly for your circumstance .

Anyway , personally i would consider their latest offer Daqo with Fronius inverter .....
or if you can afford it the REC panels upgrade ... I still wouldn't rate REC in my top 5 maybe even top 10 panels . But they are a well known brand , and i'm sure serve their purpose . I know alot less about Daqo panels but i have actually heard of them which is a bonus .
If i were you i would get a Quote from a local Designer/ Installer Electrician i think you mentioned Rainbow ??? or even some guys out of Coffs , Si Clean Energy ??? Hopefully you can actually have someone visit site to tailor your install . Then once you get a genuine quote , then start comparing or looking at bigger companies deals .
i can help you decide between two or three options , just make sure you take a screen shot of whoevers online Quote with as much detail as possible , including fine details of possible add on costs if they list them . Or you could old fashion ring them and ask them to tailor the deal to your circumstances .
ie : height , multiple pitches , possible shading ......
Did the Gums fall foul of the latest high winds ???? ;-)))

Cheers Southey,
Yeah they keep sending me different deals so that one probably was refreshed.
Gums are still standing, will be awhile to purchase, hopefully next year sometime, which gives me plenty of time for research.
Much appreciated
Thanks again champ;)

Yeah they changed that one fast as last week it was 4.5kw for $5700 and a Sungrow inverter...?

welly, udo, what is the efficiency rate of current solar panels? Read an interesting article recently that said a square metre of grass catches enough solar energy to run a toaster. Mythbusters?

thanks udo, just read the threads- fantastic information- got my answer and much much more- fuck southey your a real life encyclopedia- very impressive stuff and really really helpful, thanks mate

thanks udo
great stuff- see how this stuff picks up momentum- it was what i was trying to explain to mitchvg about, when a large proportion of human beings focus their attention with intention on something that brings benefit to all- people/planet, it allows a stronger connection to the all intelligent field. Thats why it is so important for us to share and spread this info cause monumental breakthroughs will be achieved creating efficient sustainable use of resources.
einstein gives credit for his equations to this field, beethoven said he simply picked his compositions from this field. but it can only be fully accessed with totally honourable intentions-to help.
efficient use of resources helps all.

Udo put the Gizmag linkey thing up, to lazy to surf tintin et bro.

Gis a link Gisamag stuff;)

Cheers

Southey... Off the the grid finally...! Nice work

You , I know from chatting to you, as well as being in the industry, would have a great system...!
Whats your system your running, fill us in brother of the solar;)

I looked at your avatar and thought it was a power switch.....?
Then saved it to my desktop, zoomed in ...! and saw yourself in some long johns with jean shorts shooting down a ramp.....?

Ye na' ,
The image , " lets just say I ripped it off the net " , reminded me of a few drops taken the other week .
Its a guy bombing a water slide " stand up " .

The OffGrid thing is contensious ... in that I'm not OFF the GRID as such . Just not reliant on it .
So I say OffGrid , but I'm actually still connected . Off _ Grid is how I would describe " no grid " or disconnected ...
Anyhow , my system is a " Hybrid " which means I can still export excess solar to the grid and super warm cloudy days I can still run my A/C flat out and not trash my batteries .
I also can run everything except my Wall Oven and A/C for long periods in the event of a power outage , but everything else stays on . Its not pure UPS , or even partial as the changeover is not less than a fraction of a second . So u would lose data on a computer connected , but good enough for Essential .
My house is only around 13-14 Sq's + single garage . I built a large laserlite pergola on my Nth side and then mounted 6 panels tilted ( 15 deg ) ontop of the laserlite , which created an eve , as the house was built in 2001 when no eves were the rage . Theres five tilted panels on my flat garage roof also tilted to 15 deg . Then direct to the tiled roof 11 more which are at 22 deg .
So all my panels (2 x 11 ) [22] face compass bearing of 356 , which with local Magnetic deviation of 11 deg east give an Azimuth of 345 deg .
Panels are :- Q- Cells , Q Peak 250W Mono which cost ME around $6,000 .
The Inverter is the Nedap Powerrouter 5kw Self Use , with the two separate strings of 11 modules/panels which cost me $ 5,500 . This inverter coverts the Solar DC ( 400V ) to either 24 V DC of the batteries or 240V AC of the grid and also converts the 24V Dc off the batteries to also feed into the house as 240v ac .
I have 8 x 6v 250 Ah Carbon VRLA Nerada Batteries which cost me $4,500 .
The batteries are connected in two parallel series strings to make 24 V , and there is 6 Kwh available power at 50 % depth of discharge . Of which I can expect 3,500 cycles . Generally speaking I expect an average of one discharge a day . So ten years life expectancy .
The system is aimed at powering the house completely during the day , charging the batteries and also spare enough to charge a PHEV once through the day . The batteries will atleast discharge and cover the Peak tariff period of 3-10 Pm except for the hottest days / nights . And most days actually power the entire house right through until the next morning , or even give a majority secondary charge of a PHEV over night .
So I'm more than Carbon Neutral , ( especially now without electric car ) , and i'll rarely actually import power . Instead at the moment my excess export should cover the monetary cost of having the grid connected each day ( $0.98 ) . My exports will severely outnumber my imports . That'll change when I get a PHEV ( in the next year or two ) back closer to Carbon Neurtal for the house with the bonus of half the families transport covered also . The car will basicly get minimum 50 Km s per day free or at a max under a $1 . And on cool clear days up to 100 km's free travel .
Eventually when I can afford it i'll upgrade to a efficient Inverter A/C , and in perhaps 5 years time replace the batteries for more capacity with by then less expensive Lithium or better technology . So perhaps a second EV if they are available in what I need .
The costs of materials are not that much discounted by my connections , however the exhorbitant amount of labour due to my obsessive nature that I save and other extra electrical components including an Automatic transfer switch Multiple load shed contactors and another system that will allow both EV fast charging ( 80A x 240V ) and also V2G ( in which power can be used out of the EV on peak loads ) is all ready to go .
Sorry for the essay . feel free to ask questions , its a bit techy ....

Phew that was off the Grid;)

Due to your obsessive nature it sounds like a great and a well thought out system Southey. A lot more money than the norm to set that one up....!
Nice work champ.

power to the swill-nutters

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/pornhub-turns-masturbat...

I have a question. If I am turning to a company which distributes solar panels (I am currently thinking of http://solarpanelscompany.com/ ), do I have a right to choose the manufacturer? I am very new to this and don't really want to make a mistake. Plus, whom do you suggest?

I mentioned ages ago in this forum about all these solar farms popping up everywhere here in Japan. I said I'd take a picture of one. Here's a new one that's just gone in about 15 mins up the road from me. There's a similar one about 15 mins south. I estimate the land they sit on would be about 10 acres. I couldn't get the whole place in the one frame on my mobile. Probably about 2/3 of the total area is represented in this pic. There's another one about half the size just to the west of this place.

Southey, any idea how much power this place could generate on a sunny day

No Udo, wasn't aware of it. Had to google it. Amazing though.

Definitely not on that scale here but the Japanese are certainly embracing solar and wind and obviously geo-thermal. Seems like the ones in the pic above are popping up everywhere, with 3 within a 10km radius or so of me going up in the last year alone, with more to come.