Turnbull rolls over "again" to the ultra right
I'm with sypo on this one, floyd.... Latham is great value... In your face....
Now... Good old Kevin..... Last time I checked He defeated John Howard, did ok during the gfc, then got knifed by a collective of union hacks including Howes, Gillard, and Shorten.... Howes helped Rudd roll Beazley, then helped Gillard roll Rudd, then helped Rudd roll Gillard, then backed Rudds new way of electing a Labor party leader....... You want one of the "faceless men" to now lead Labor, Floyd??
No..... No.... No..... I hope Howes never has anything to do with the Labor party again..... They need him like a hole in the head.......
I can understand the point that taking them will cost more and i don't think we should do that, but you can't pay them to go away either its just crazy, they will just keep on wanting more money to go back and instead of 200 people on one boat next time it will be two smaller boats with 100 people, plus the public uproar will be huge and its most likely illegal as doesn't that make the government almost people smugglers?
Exactly what I was saying a few posts back, indo.... In regards to "taking them in", have you seen the incredible numbers going into Europe across the Mediterranean? Imagine if we sat next to Italy/France/Greece etc, and we were paying the smugglers, and/or putting refugees in life rafts... We'd be absolutely condemned..... In the grand scale of things, the amount that came here yearly was fuck all....
As a nation, we're paying smugglers, booing aboriginals, silencing doctors, giving ministers illegal powers, kicking anyone below us...... Howard, Bolt, Jones, hadlee Abbott and co have really done a number on the Australian easy going character.....
And on a slightly related issue.......... Back in the 1970s, we declared a "war on drugs"........ Now there is more drugs around than ever........... In 2001, we declared a "war on terror"...... Now there are more terrorists around than ever....... perhaps we should declare a war on jobs, happiness, and commonsense....
Its going to be interesting where all this goes in 10 to 20 years its not something that is going to go away and most likely will only get worse.
I wonder what would be the implications of parting from the refugee convention?
I don't mean not taking in refugees/asylum seekers we could still take our quota, but that would help free us up in how we approach the issue and do things more on our own terms, and currently I believe Indonesia has to allow people to pass through on their way here, but if we were not signed to it, could that mean that Indonesia could not allow people entry?
The solution on the issue has to have two things.
1. people don't get here by boat because there is to much political fall out when boat sinks or people drown.
2. no detention centres onshore or offshore because you can never keep everyone happy on conditions.
So ideally that means you only take people by plane who apply from out of the country and all applications and assessment is done in an environment that is not a live in and process environment run by Australian athoritys.
Taking people directly from refugee camps and accessing them there makes sense, but i don't think it will happen as our ideal refugee/asylum seeker is one that has money the more the better and can speak english and have skills so they can become tax payers and contribute rather than become a burden on the tax payer especially if they do not have skills or can not speak english.
Unfortunately those with money are the ones that try to get to other countries and those without are the ones stuck in refugee camps.
ID you say ............." So ideally that means you only take people by plane who apply from out of the country and all applications and assessment is done in an environment that is not a live in and process environment run by Australian athoritys" ............
But what about the thousands that come here already by plane?
Who? what?
People who overstay tourist visas and work or people that come here on dodgy student programs or people on 457 work visas who (illegally) take the jobs of Australians. These people are economic refugees but you don't have Abbott talking about them coz its the evil boat people and the smugglers that help them get here that are the real villains.
Where I live there isn't a vegetable planted or picked that its done so by overseas workers bused to the fields before dawn in vans with blacked out windows. There is also two Italian cafes staffed by so called "students" who are straight from Rome with little English and work history before making it big serving tables here. Last time I checked we have close to 30% youth unemployment in my region yet businesses can hire people from overseas. Economic refugees are ok if they fly in but not by boat (only votes in boats).
@sheepy, can you name 5 positive things Abbott stands for?
I see the same Floyd in my area i don't agree with it and think how can this happen, but really thats a whole separate issue.
Indo...if it is true that the smugglers are being paid then you would expect the issue to get worse. But this is made more complex by the behaviour of the Indo authorities. I wouldn't be surprised if they are getting paid also. Regardless, this whole problem be it here or in Europe needs to be controlled.
tonybarber, i think you need to appreciate it is not a priority for indonesian authorities, it would barely rate a mention in the media or day to day conversations of indonesians, whereas in oz its front page, and talked about daily. indonesia has bigger concerns than people moving through their country. Indonesians are also very accepting people. i find aboriginals have a similar attitude. its like they accept its up to the gods where peopke find themselves. and the culture is to accept and share the available resources. whereas blowin australians seem to have this attitude of we need to keep people out and be proactive controlling things. i think a big part of the australian psyche is our very generous welfare system and services. we know people can come here contribute little and have a very nice life. asylum seekers know this too. thankfully most dont do this, but scaremongering from howard and co. have created a warped perspective. sheepdog is correct in saying the numbers we deal with are miniscule compared to europe. seriously how does a cash strapped country like italy deal with the numbers. i am guessing but i reckon asylum seekers would need to be much more independent and wouldn't have a plethora of do gooders and services at their beck and call like in oz. and they are not locked up on isolated tropical islands at a ridiculous expense to the tax payer while they are processed. and i am sure it doesnt take years to process them. so many things wrong with the aussie system which has a rolls royce pricetag with very poor outcomes. indonesians probably see asylum seekers as an opportunity as they pass through their country as they must be independent. they bring money to the economy whereas in oz they cost a ridiculous amount per year to house and educate, an amount of money and support many poor australians can only dream of hence the bad attitude towards them. whats puzzling is why many wealthy liberal voters share the same bad attitude
I think your correct Sypkan i don't think its on the Indonesian media radar and i don't think it would be seen as much of a problem In Indonesia and its sure not something they would want to deal with as they already have a shit load of their own issues and problems to care about.
Im not for a system of if you can get here we will process you, but i do find the whole situation kind of weird as being signed to the refugee convention is kind of like putting out the welcome mat but then at the same time we lock the door.
@Tony, I don't know i guess you need the people with money to depart first and they may not be that keen when they learn others have payed only to return back to Indonesia, but I'm sure the Indo people smugglers are keen as mustard to get back out there to get double dip and get paid by the Australian authorities.
I wonder what the legal situation is for Indonesia?
I would expect Indonesia must allow refuges/asylum seekers to pass through Indonesia to get to a country signed to the refugee convention (Australia)
Is it illegal for Indonesians to provide a service to get to Australia?….we call them people smugglers but really all they are doing is helping people get to a safe country…its a very weird situation.
Australian Unions...... The best thing to happen to corporate Australia in the last decade.
Corrupt thugs.
Utterly unrepresentative of the working class.
A necessary element of a balanced society that has been bastardised beyond recognition.
Scrap the lot and start again.
This also applies to the Labour Party.
Blowin wrote:Australian Unions...... The best thing to happen to corporate Australia in the last decade.
Corrupt thugs.
Utterly unrepresentative of the working class.
A necessary element of a balanced society that has been bastardised beyond recognition.
Scrap the lot and start again.
This also applies to the Labour Party.
You watch The Bolt Report today?
I've Never seen it . Why ?
Blowin wrote:I've Never seen it . Why ?
Coz that's sort of claptrap Bolt bangs on about week in week out. Big on generalisations, lacking balance and never letting the truth get in the way of a good story.
Let's hear the positives regards them selling out workers to further themselves then.
Blowin wrote:Let's hear the positives regards them selling out workers to further themselves then.
Specifically: which union? which EBA agreement? what date? was the EBA ratified by the Fair Work Commission? and here's the really important bit blowin, was the EBA legal under the relevant Commonwealth legislation at the time it was ratified?
See, its easy to generalise about these things, its easy for the idiot press or the fuckwits at 2GB to spew indignation over the airwaves but its facts that count.
If union officials are found to be corrupt let the courts deal with them always. Equally, ICAC in NSW has recently caught politicians from both sides doing the wrong thing and I also look forward to seeing them have their day in court and hopefully jail.
What you reckon?
Is it good enough for our PM and several of his ministers to L-I-E about giving $$$ to people smugglers?
What ever it takes, you know, who cares so long as we "Stop The Boats".
Is that what we want as a country and is that the relationship we want to foster with Indonesia?
If there isn't a massive backlash about this we are truly down the shit hole.
Blowin...... "Corrupt thugs."...." Utterly unrepresentative of the working class."Let's hear the positives regards them selling out workers to further themselves then."....
Gee for a moment I thought you were talking about Howards workchoices, The coalitions industrial relations, using doctors as tax collectors re' medicare, Rinehart, and Abbotts changes to 457 visa's... :)
"A necessary element of a balanced society that has been bastardised beyond recognition"..... Was that about Abbott and his death cult/votes from fear campaign?
Floyd... "@sheepy, can you name 5 positive things Abbott stands for?"..
No..... But my opinion on Abbott doesn't matter... FFs floyd... You know I reckon he is the worse thing to ever happen to our country...... What matters is the opinion of the swill...... Not the opinion of the few....
And the opinion of the swill is to often go with the devil you know...... I'll still give my preference to the turd burger.... But what will the swill do? Will they vote for a bloke that knifed two pms? Or would labor have a better chance if they got rid of all memories from that sordid rudd/gillard/rudd affair? Albo stayed neutral.... Burke kept his head low.... Dreyfus holds an aura of authority....
Shorten is the James Hird of labor..... They wont get anywhere until they move on.... ;)
I just read the price they paid was $30,000 AUD.
That is just crazy do you know what you could do with $30,000 in Indonesia?
If it was in Australia it would be more like if someone gave you $300,000.
I was thinking it was going to be more like $3,000 to $6,000.
Those people smugglers must be thinking they have just won tattslotto.
Thats alot of ciggy's and rice
Hey blowjob yeah its easy to jump on the old union bashing bandwagon based on rumor and hearsay and fall for the ruling class spin but without them the working class would be shafted big time. I was a member of the C.F.M.E.U for 30 years and found them to be a really decent bunch of highly educated well spoken blokes who really went out of their way to help with any problems and were passionate about workers rights and safety. All organizations have a few rotten eggs but to make blatant unfounded generalizations about all unions says more about the accuser than the accused .
On topic how lucky is T. Abbott to have the weakest opposition leader in history in Bill Shorten, what a pathetic little dweeb, his mouths a flappin but nothings coming out boy. He seems happy to warm the opposition benches until his super kicks in. Obviously I'm an unashamed Labor man but I don't know if I could ever vote for that spineless little jellyfish. Cheers.
Haha floyd your 'neocon' bashings a joke..you crap on about the facts but only ones that you cherry pick.labor did exactly the same thing to people smugglers you dweeb.didnt you hear your hero bill trot out the 'we dont commentate on operational matters line'.they paid the fuckers as well!. Classic politicians playing politics. Throw the mud at the walls and see what sticks.your negativity towards life in general is embarrassing...
I have a question for you..what will you do with the millions of people out of work once the renewables take over?..read an article today that states up to 5 million people could have no jobs when technology and clean energy become more and more automated in the coming future.coal might be becoming outdated and un useable but its been a long term employer over its lifespan. I have at least 3 windfarms situated around me and while they employed up to 300 during construction, currentl each 'farm' has approx 20 emlpoyees. So that tells me the energy sector is going to go from a major employer/player down to miniscule.
What both parties have to balance will be environment v employment
barley wrote:..read an article today that states up to 5 million people could have no jobs when technology and clean energy become more and more automated in the coming future.
5 million people, eh? Nearly half the Australian workforce. Fucken amazing news.
.
No shit stooey read it on Adelaidenow website then heard it on abc later..i'd put the link up from adelaidenow but fuck paying for their subscription
Barley, its 5 million jobs OVER 15 YEARS...and I personally think its a fanciful number even given the extended time frame. Also, the research (done by Committee of Economic Development of Australia) finds most jobs will go from health care with renewable energy being a small part of it, you appear to have added that to fit your own beliefs. The CEDA bogeyman is computerisation not clean energy.
To counter the losses CEDA advise investment in new sectors, such as renewable energy (among others). In fact the Chief Executive of CEDA has said "renewables and efficiency are vital if Australia is to transition to a lowcarbon emissions energy future. If we don’t get this right it will have significant economic, social and environmental costs for Australians. "
CEDA have lots of reports on the topic(s). Just search Google.
Disclaimer: I've done research work for them in the past.
Hey boxy.did i list a time frame?even so 15yrs is pretty fucken close! Will renewable energy employ as many as currently are employed in the energy sector? I dont think so. The robots are comin man! I agree its not just energy, manufacturing as well..lots of labour intensive sectors. Its hard to predict or direct people into future study/jobs projects when we don't even know what we will need...just thowing a different view out there
No you didn't list a time frame yet you should've considering it's relation to the number of job losses. Also, "different views" don't help when they're incorrect and reactionary.
5mill in 15yrs isnt a concern for you boxy? Taking jobs out of healthcare isnt either? Marvellous!but hang on,renewables will save us..brilliant
If the prediction comes true then of course it is. Renewables won't save us but investment in them will alleviate the issues that are coming down the turnpike whether you believe in them or not.
For me its not about believing in renewables or not(i know we need them). My point is to base your future economy on the renewable energy sector alone is dillusional
You guys think abbsy is bad..get aload of julia v kevin 'the killing season' fuck me!!no one knows what the fuck is going on how did these two egomaniacs run the country? Sheesh
@barley ..... there is no arguing with stupid.
C'mon floggy where's ya labor chest beating?where's ya best mate billy shorten?why would labor allow this show to be produced while 3/4 of them are still on the opp. Front bench? Its like kevin still getting them from beyond the prime ministerial grave blahahah
Barley.... What it shows is that regardless of all the vomit exploding from Andrew Bolt and Tony Abbott, the ABC is clearly less "bias" than what they say, and Labor has no power over them....
labor has no power over anyone at all...still
warning - im gonna sprout some alan jones inspired wisdom from this morning.
labor went hard in question time with the paying people smugglers thing, libs just turned it back on them with labors boat statistics from when they were in power, and once again what should have easy points for labor just made them look silly...oh bill!
next day labor doesn't even want to talk about it, and drags out tony abbott style slogans about protecting millionaire pensioners. no one is interested, no traction again, the fourby is flat out sliding backwards down the slope...again
meanwhile the greens are being reasonable politicians negotiating deals that will save the economy of all things. kudos to them. the new greens team have become quite reasonable and acountable, getting on with stuff and raising real issues like negative gearing. good on em, labor was too chicken to do it, even when the issue had a little momentum.
i agree with much that the greens say but normally they are too airy fairy on the realities of governing to take them too seriously. but i think the new leader is a real positive. there was nothing wrong with christine milne but like billy boy she was just a real unispiring leader. when will labor accept that their new system for choosing a leader was sound on paper, but on its first run it has failed miserably
I think that's the second time you've quoted or paraphrased Jonesy. Feeling alright..?
"when will labor accept that their new system for choosing a leader was sound on paper, but on its first run it has failed miserably"
Yep..... A system backed and spruiked by????????? Floyd????? You can answer this one.... ;)
yeh i feel dirty,
but he's right the greens are looking like the only real alternative to abbottt....and abbott is so bad
BTW, I think this "libs paying the smugglers" and "labor did it too" misses the whole point.... The main point is that the Australian electorate has no problem being "ostrich people" when faced with something so morally perverse as paying money to criminals to sweep a problem under a rug..... I have grave fears in regards to the Australian psyche.....
Awwww sheepy, its was Krudd.
So agree with you comments on the Australian psyche ... Waleed Aly's recent comments about Australians being tolerant until its minorities step out of line is so true. This intolerance to anything different and the politics of exclusion and race really came out into the open under Howard "we will decide who comes here etc" and his whole "aspirational Australians" spiel. This sense of entitlement and protecting what is mine at all costs and fuck all principles of common decency was cemented into our souls under Howard. Labor was no better under Krudd and Gillard. And as for Abbott, man I just want to punch the fucker.
I agree the Greens are looking good right now.
floyd wrote:"We will decide who comes here..."
The most vile and contemptible statement, and utterly symbolic of those post-millenium Howard years.
Stunet...easy to take statements out of context. As a son of refugees , I see that Aus takes in all races and religions. If you review what Howard said, you will see that it was about 'controlled' migration. We saw and still see what uncontrolled migration does - simply lives are lost. What seems to be missing is the program's Aus had back in 1948 and 1950s where migrants from all races & religion were given jobs & basic housing to get started in their new life.
"In 1948 and 1950s where migrants from all races & religion were given jobs & basic housing to get started in their new life."
Except if you were black or asian
floyd wrote:Awwww sheepy, its was Krudd.
So agree with you comments on the Australian psyche ... Waleed Aly's recent comments about Australians being tolerant until its minorities step out of line is so true. This intolerance to anything different and the politics of exclusion and race really came out into the open under Howard "we will decide who comes here etc" and his whole "aspirational Australians" spiel. This sense of entitlement and protecting what is mine at all costs and fuck all principles of common decency was cemented into our souls under Howard. Labor was no better under Krudd and Gillard. And as for Abbott, man I just want to punch the fucker.
I agree the Greens are looking good right now.
No, floyd,,,, Rudd didn't back the plan... He designed the plan, and needed powerbrokers to back it.....
No Hockey cigar for you old chum...... The answer is your two mates.... Paul Howes and Bill Shorten lol
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-07-09/howes-and-shorten-back-rudds-leade...
anyone seen the tripe on the front page of The Age .
Can we really believe that some people smugglers are just going to hand in $5000 in US notes to the local Police . Then the local Police chief , get this " General Endang Sunjaya " of the Nusa Tangara Timur province , goes on to talk about the lack of Humanity of Australians ..... So we have a nation that needs a General to be a Police Chief ( read into that what you will ) trying defame a country that actually has a Refugee policy ..... Righto .
And yes I'm sure a boat smuggler is a reliable witness especially when it comes money .
I can't believe guys that operate these vessels would turn in such .
I'm not denying that it didn't happen , just i doubt it happened anything like that .
And how could a country that has quite factually been involved in genocidal acts in a system that is openly corrupt have the moral high ground to point a Bribe .
Its seems even Indonesia is playing Political tennis , Abbott and his party only have themselves to blame in that respect . Not that i think we should be taking humanitarian advice from Jakarta .
The problem is that the journalists are reporting this as if its Facts .
There map and timeline on Pg 4 is even more sideways . And the story gets a new twist that they didn't receive enough fuel to get to Rote . But their initial destination was NZ. yeah right . Sounds Crystal .
And Tony your wrong in one respect , they don't get jobs these days they get wads of cash , cheap loans , housing but no job is guaranteed . Though this might not fit their ideal .
tonybarber wrote:Stunet...easy to take statements out of context. As a son of refugees , I see that Aus takes in all races and religions. If you review what Howard said, you will see that it was about 'controlled' migration. We saw and still see what uncontrolled migration does - simply lives are lost. What seems to be missing is the program's Aus had back in 1948 and 1950s where migrants from all races & religion were given jobs & basic housing to get started in their new life.
Crikey, I'm agreeing IN PART with the TB. Yes there were programs in place to help the migrants to Australia during the 40s 50s and 60s settle in Australia. We had what was called migrant centres where people were housed temporarily to allow them to learn some english and basic skills and knowledge of the place, they were a great success and knowing 2 former residents/participants** of these programs they are also viewed with great affection. No such programs exist today and its a pity. It seems migrants are just dumped and left to their own devices.
If you want a great glimpse how it was look up the movie "They're a weird mob". An Australian classic.
** both men worked their arses off and became very successful small business operators.
Vice news : Drowning for Freedom, libyas migrant Jails.
Floyd, the book is even better. Written by John O'Grady under the nom de guerre, Nino Culotta (or something like that). Not exactly the most politically correct book but a good snapshot of what Australia was like 50 years ago.
He wrote a couple of others with Nino as the central character too I think.
No-one got anything to say about the loss of the car industry under a government and high viz Tony that promised to create 1,000,000 jobs?
Slumber away ........