Turnbull rolls over "again" to the ultra right
Blowin wrote:Come on Floyd.
You're naming and shaming Australia's shameful drunken population -who above all else have the temerity to be white amongst their innumerable crimes- that is destroying the country's future. Then let's hear about your contribution towards Australia's common good.
I'm serious.
Blowhard, if you're gonna play that game and be so "serious", you've got to go first.
Actually AndyM I don't have to go at all as I'm not the fella writing off the entire population of Australia as "Brain dead white piss heads".
He's referring to you as well Andy.
Blowin wrote:Actually AndyM I don't have to go at all as I'm not the fella writing off the entire population of Australia as "Brain dead white piss heads".
He's referring to you as well Andy.
Mate you can't seriously say that Oz hasn't got a problem with alcohol.
Floyd you can't have an opinion on alcohol abuse in Australia if you've ever had a drink.
You can't mention concern for migrants or indigenous Australians unless your willing to let them move into your home.
You can't speak out against Indonesia's drug laws if you've ever puffed on a joint.
You can't express a concern for environmental issues if you've ever driven a car and you sure as fuck can't have an opinion on social issues unless your Mother Teresa.
Hope this list helps you to define your future comments on here floyd!
Oz hasn't got a problem with alcohol.
There I said it.
Australia has always been a nation of drinkers since the first fleet.
And we've thrived.
Beer sales are way down and everyone is saying Oz was better 30 years ago when people drank heaps more. Alcohol is a minor issue.
What about Brain dead and White ?
Apparently Australia is heading for the scrap heap ( ha ha) because were brain dead and white.
Now do you see why Floyd should establish his superiority so he can continue to assert his moral authority ?
floyd wrote:No-one got anything to say about the loss of the car industry under a government and high viz Tony that promised to create 1,000,000 jobs?
Slumber away ........
Ahh. No more commodores
People can have all the opinions they want Yorkes, I'm just sick of the whole writing off Australia deal.
It doesn't make me a flag waving redneck.
It means I've got a bit of pride in the society that we've managed to forge. It's not all glorious, but on the whole our history and the resultant community is pretty freaking good.
As a nation we are civil, compassionate , prosperous , inclusive and open minded.
You won't abide by anyone denigrating Aboriginal pride or black pride or gay pride but you think nothing of Floyd saying that Australians are dumb white fuckwits. In fact you defend him.
I'm pretty sure floyd's comments are a generalization as I'm sure you understand blowin. I understand your pride in Australia I think its a natural thing. National pride is a good thing if it doesn't represent unfounded hubris. Its a very different thing to aboriginal pride or black pride or gay pride which have come about in response to years/centuries of oppression in an effort to establish an identity for those groups.
We are a lucky country, specifically being white and the privilleges we enjoy. IMO its important to recognize that as a privelleged class there are faults in our society and behavior and history, without it is false pride.
Australia has one of the highest rates of alcohol consumption per capita in the world, the negative impacts are well known.
Australia, on the whole has a pretty terrible history of racism, of not being compassionate, inclusive or openminded. This doesn't make you or I a bad person, it does allow us room to improve.
"We are a lucky country - specifically being white and the privelidges we enjoy ."
Huh ?
Privelidges of being white ? Let's see how far those privelidges extend to you outside Australia. China for instance.
You do realise that Australia began it's modern incarnation as boatloads of victims of English class warfare stranded without reprieve on an alien continent where by few of the meagre skills they possessed were appropriate for their chances of survival ?
And from these beginnings we are the open and safe society we are now.
Talk about oppression and uphill battles.
It probably seems abstract and foreign now , but life in Australia was anything but easy up until quite recently.
Same same but different to the struggles of the Aborigines and Homosexuals.
We're not a privelidged class, Australians have earned their prosperity and it's not shameful to feel proud of the fact that I know that a stranger in the street will contribute some of his hard earned pay to me in the form of welfare if I'm to fall on hard times or that the community funds a health service that will care fr the treatment of any anonymous person regardless of their background or bank balance.
That all are equal before the law and we are free from oppression.
All these things are to be proud of as it is you , me and everyone we know as Aussies that makes this so.
Jingoistic ? White privelidge ? Redneck ? Brain dead white bogan pisshead ?
Like fuck.
Yep the privileges of white both in Australia and outside if you wanna scew the premise of what I said. Anybody who has traveled from Australia to China is wealthy enough to do so, far wealthier than the vast majority of Chinese.
Yep I realize the the narrow history of white settlement you refer to, keep in mind this doesn't include SA or people who emigrated at this time or after who did so willingly. A population who came to this country and profited from its natural resources and land which they had no claim to. A population who profitted from slave labor denying wages to people of colour. That's not to say people didn't work hard etc etc but you can't deny these important points.
Yep it is an open and safe society unless of course if you are indigenous, if you are indigenous your chances of education are far lower, your chances of incarceration are far higher, your life expectancy is far lower etc etc.
Life in Australia has been easy in the past, want some land? Yours for free if you go settle here, head out beyond the black stump and you can do what you want. Early last century melbournians had the highest income per capita in the world.
Free from oppression yes, equal before the law no.
I'm not gonna throw around those cliches, redneck etc but its time we started to right the wrongs or at least confront them and also start standing on our own two feet as a nation, fuck off the British connection, stop following the US like a lap dog and develop a true indentity for ourselves. To do so we have to aspire to some of the things you mention - compassion for those less fortunate and be cognizant of the flaws in our history and in our society.
Some-one has to do it. The 2015 budget what bullshit.
Wake up Australia you have been conned. Michael Pascoe isn't known as a raving leftie ....
http://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/small-business-myths-work-...
Of course there are the changes to PPL/child care linked to cuts to families with children over 6 years still blocked in the Senate from the 2014 budget. Now working mothers who claim 2 lots of PPL are "double dipping" and "rorting the system" whereas for the last 6 years Abbott's position was he wanted to pay mums even more money on PPL.
Yet still on the table are the $80 billion cuts to health and eduction and Pyne's plans to deregulate universities.
Where has that budget emergency gone to? not to worry, nice Mr Abbott gave us tradies a handout. Lets vote for him.
Confused? well we shouldn't be its all about being re-elected and nothing to do with what's best for the country.
On re-election, expect the next election late this year or early next (not officially due to November 2016) cos Abbott can't give us a 2nd budget like this one and nothing shores up his personal grip on power like fighting the ALP in election mode.
And your advice to the Labor party, Floyd????? You, see the problem is Shortle... I've said that all along.... When Abbott was taking a standing 8 count a few months ago, a competent opposition leader would've gone in for the kill..... The polls should be 60 - 40 in favour of Labor..... But the inept performance of Shistern may enable the most dishonest and foul government in Australian history to win by default..... And that will make it 3 federal elections in a row where a political party won office via the Steve Bradbury effect.....
Too true Sheepy, even the Michael Pascoe article above highlights Shorten's folly.
I'm a little old fashioned but I'm thinking the country will be saved from Abbott only if the ALP actually puts some credible policies together before the next election and us voters have a real choice, but I'm not holding my breath. Policies before personalities.
Its emerging that at the core of Abbott and his key ministers is the most fundamental belief in small government / small tax. The cost of superannuation tax concessions in 2 years time (est. $50 billion pa) will exceed the cost of the Age Pension. Most superannuation tax concessions go to the very wealthy yet Abbott and Hockey are saying they do not have any plans to change these concessions. Meanwhile women's refuges in remote Aboriginal communities are being de-funded by Abbott's government to save $100K.
Part of me wants Abbott to be re-elected with a friendly Senate. The resulting wrath that will be inflicted by these fundamentalist neo-cons on Australian families, the unemployed, students, pensioners, the sick and low paid workers will be so great it will force voters to wake from the comfy comatose state and force them to decide what sort of country do they want.
Small tax ?
What about bracket creep and the removal of remote area allowances ?
Yep, you are correct bracket creep is in play and its possible Abbott will go to the next election promising a tax "cut" when any reduction in personal income tax will be correcting, or partly correcting, bracket creep so by definition it isn't a tax "cut". Another lie.
Don't know about remote area allowances, perhaps you can explain.
Here is a link on how Maccas avoided paying 1/2 billion $AUD in tax
http://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/how-mcdonalds-dodged-half-...
We just all need to wake up to this and demand government action.
Blowin wrote:"Australians have earned their prosperity and it's not shameful to feel proud of the fact that I know that a stranger in the street will contribute some of his hard earned pay to me in the form of welfare if I'm to fall on hard times "
Ever tried to get the dole? after 10 years of paying taxes never taking a handout i was given the huge sum of 80 cents a fortnight to help me eat because my girlfirend of 6 months earnt to much. Had less then a grand in the bank was on my fuckin arse if your not a derelict you won't get shit.
Remote area allowance is a tax rebate granted to people in remote areas - mostly the tropical North - to account for living and working in extreme climates and paying more for staples such as food and fuel.
It also attempts to compensate for lack of facilities provided as funds are concentrated in population centres.
I'm hearing your pain Rees0. But you'll never starve. You may not have a glamorous life , but you'll never starve.
'Australians have earned their prosperity'
By Australia's and Britain's own laws, those earnings are actually stolen property.
'The dominant cultural norms of the non indigenous population of the Australian colonies were exactly those of England (Russell 1994 : 152) and the complex social hierarchy of the 'mother country' was faithfully replicated (Butterfield 38)
Invaders, calling themselves Australians, lied, cheated, thieved, flogged, stole their prosperity from the legal owners of the land, the Indigenous People and keep that stolen property by brute force, either conveniently or ignorantly relabeling it 'prosperity'.
Ok, so did Abbott remove this tax rebate? if so, when? I would have thought this would have been a massive issue for the National Party, haven't seen or heard anything from them about it.
uplift wrote:'Australians have earned their prosperity'
By Australia's and Britain's own laws, those earnings are actually stolen property.
'The dominant cultural norms of the non indigenous population of the Australian colonies were exactly those of England (Russell 1994 : 152) and the complex social hierarchy of the 'mother country' was faithfully replicated (Butterfield 38)
Invaders, calling themselves Australians, lied, cheated, thieved, flogged, stole their prosperity from the legal owners of the land, the Indigenous People and keep that stolen property by brute force, either conveniently or ignorantly relabeling it 'prosperity'.
Absolutely true, lift...... And the same thing is happening right now in Nepal, the Amazon.....
But I'd like to throw a hypothetical at not only you, but floyd, blowout etc....
Let's say the british NEVER colonized Australia.... The french were showing interest, as was Spain....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/austral...
And we've all seen what france did in Africa, what Spain did in South America.... No regard for the local inhabitants..... So how do you think the French or Spanish would've dealt the Aboriginals? Would've they signed a co share agreement? Would've they said "whoops, sorry, your the legal owners"? Going on history and past actions, I don't think so....
Then of course there was 1941..... Let's say that somehow no country ever came to Australia, and the aboriginals were still living as they were..... No Aussies at kokoda.... No resistance at Darwin... No sinking of u boats in Sydney harbour..... How would've the Japanese dealt with the aboriginals?
I am not defending the disgraceful treatment by the british and Australians.... But what I am pointing out is that subsistence tribes of the world became and continue to become collateral damage to those with far superior "technology"...... The aboriginals were doomed.... Sad but true.....
If you listen closely, you can hear an Amazonian woman crying..... Another football field chunk of rainforest cleared nnnnnnnnow....... And another ..... And another..... And another....
Sheepdog wrote:uplift wrote:'Australians have earned their prosperity'
By Australia's and Britain's own laws, those earnings are actually stolen property.
'The dominant cultural norms of the non indigenous population of the Australian colonies were exactly those of England (Russell 1994 : 152) and the complex social hierarchy of the 'mother country' was faithfully replicated (Butterfield 38)
Invaders, calling themselves Australians, lied, cheated, thieved, flogged, stole their prosperity from the legal owners of the land, the Indigenous People and keep that stolen property by brute force, either conveniently or ignorantly relabeling it 'prosperity'.
Absolutely true, lift...... And the same thing is happening right now in Nepal, the Amazon.....
But I'd like to throw a hypothetical at not only you, but floyd, blowout etc....Let's say the british NEVER colonized Australia.... The french were showing interest, as was Spain....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/austral...And we've all seen what france did in Africa, what Spain did in South America.... No regard for the local inhabitants..... So how do you think the French or Spanish would've dealt the Aboriginals? Would've they signed a co share agreement? Would've they said "whoops, sorry, your the legal owners"? Going on history and past actions, I don't think so....
Then of course there was 1941..... Let's say that somehow no country ever came to Australia, and the aboriginals were still living as they were..... No Aussies at kokoda.... No resistance at Darwin... No sinking of u boats in Sydney harbour..... How would've the Japanese dealt with the aboriginals?
I am not defending the disgraceful treatment by the british and Australians.... But what I am pointing out is that subsistence tribes of the world became and continue to become collateral damage to those with far superior "technology"...... The aboriginals were doomed.... Sad but true.....
If you listen closely, you can hear an Amazonian woman crying..... Another football field chunk of rainforest cleared nnnnnnnnow....... And another ..... And another..... And another....
OK I understand the amazon reference but Nepal? As for hypothetical, well they're just that hypothetical, of what use is pointing out that the same situation could have arisen but with a different perpetrator? I'll take a bite anyways to clear a few things up.
The Japanese never intended a takeover/invasion/colonization of Australia, the few pissy attacks were purely strategic. If in the case of your hypothetical indigineous australians remained as the dominant culture of australia why would they have any interest in being involved in WWII?
'Far Superior' technology makes the same assumptions as 'far superior culture/society' which is also often used to describe comparisons between European cultures and others. Its eurocentric thinking and doesn't make sense, the technology is different but by many measures technologies utilized by indigineous Australians were superior. Medicines, agricultural technologies are just a couple of examples. A stark example is the current rush to sustainability, sustainable farming practices, sustainable land management, sustainable fuels blah blah. These technologies/practices had been in use for tens of thousands of years and European culture is just now starting to catch up.
There are countries which did not succumb to colonization and others which have also held on to traditions or language and culture which we still don't understand the importance of .
@sheepy, yeah I wonder about the logic, the thinking but mostly the outright greed that sees great slabs of the earth's remaining natural world being carved up for farming. You would have thought humankind would have learnt by now. Greed and stupidity.
Gidday sheepdog, yes, thats true, the high probability is that Traditional Indigenous Australians would have been butchered by someone else with similar, primitive, limited, brute like, unsophisticated values as the British.
Silicun highlights a major flaw in our beautifully conditioned, limited overall thinking. Which, when examined thoroughly is the total opposite to Traditional Indigenous Australian thinking. One, the british, western school of thought has a primitive, seperatist, fearfull, terrified world view. It must defeat, conquer, be above, so supposedly be safe, superior to all around it. In doing so, it, by its very nature will never see or understand the Truth, and so the endless bungles as mentioned in the 'sand banks' thread are guaranteed. On the other hand, the intrically connected and sophisticated, highly advanced, inclusive school of thought embraced and understood by Traditional Indigenous Australians guaranteed their unrivalled, not evenly remotely matched Cultural success. They didn't need generals, presidents, they had no need for 'superior killing machines', for conquering every mother fucking thing. They loved/love the world, and their connection and place in it, their Mother.
So the western way is to fight and conquer every mother fucking thing. One tooth Carl summed it up well, his famous sneering squwark, echoing over and in the ocean, was 'faaaarrrrk the world 'fore it fffaaarrk's you!' On the contrary, Traditional Indigenous Australians love/loved it. As they love a Mother. They are it.
It is slowly dawning on our less advanced culture that we are actually connected to all around us. And beyond. Whether it does dawn or not before it destroys itself in a maniacal, terrified, brute like lashing out frenzy, who knows.
'Superior' technology. Interesting. Results. The most successful Cultures by miles, results not even remotely equalled. I read a deluxe discussion where the Traditional Indigenous Australian boomerang was voted as the most succesful, advanced invention ever. Environmentally friendly... tick, affordability... tick, sophisticated use of and understanding of advanced, complex aerodynamic principles... tick, success rate... tick, ease of use and availability... tick, adaptability... tick. It ticked all the boxes thrown at it. Still I bet some one will find a way to be 'superior' to it, to kick its faaarkin' arse, and them faarkin' cunts that threw the fuckers!
Never underestimate the hidden power of unconscious conditioning. A double edged sword, which can be so amasingly and effortlessly good, and so amasingly and effortlessly bad.
So yeh, the Traditional Indigenous Australians could have been fucked up and mangled, butchered and destroyed by heaps of crew and methods. But we are the perpetuation of the culture that did it, and I want to be better than that. And to me the formula is simple. Start with the truth, dont deny it. The best map in the world is useless if you don't know exactly where you are on it.
Abbs isn't welcoming no fucking invaders here aye, go back to where ya cunts came from! Bewdy Abbs... hey... didn't we faarkin...
Naaarrr, faarkin naaahh, wordy reckons there was no cunt ere aye, jus' farrkin chimps aye! Lucky us faaarkin sophisticated, superior cunts got to em first aye!!! The law's the farrkkin' law aye maaaytte... nudge, nudge, wink, wink!
Uplift.... " 'Superior' technology. Interesting. Results"......
Yeah.... That's why I put inverted commas around "technology"..... Technology allows us to invent a way to blow up the world via the atom bomb...... But the fact remains that the aboriginals were sitting ducks....
"So the western way is to fight and conquer every mother fucking thing"....... I'd say that is not a western thing.... Genghis Khan, the Sumerian and egyptian empires.... The sioux/winnebago/illini wars - genocide.........
So I'd say why the west got soooo good at slaughter goes back to... yep..... "Technology".... From Roman armour to the steam engine to the Hawker hurricane to the H bomb..... I'm sure if you had've given these "advancements" to the sioux, every apache, cherrokee, iroquois would've been slaughtered....
Silicun...... "The Japanese never intended a takeover/invasion/colonization of Australia, the few pissy attacks were purely strategic. If in the case of your hypothetical indigineous australians remained as the dominant culture of australia why would they have any interest in being involved in WWII?"
So........ there's a big "unclaimed" continent full of iron ore, coal, stuff that is just great for making warships and planes....... It is guarded by tribes with nulla nullas..... Silicun... i don't think the japs would've even bothered with Pearl harbour...... They would've just swept down through s.e. asia like they were....... But this is all hypothetical......
Potential Japanese invasion of Australia is a myth sheepy, it wasn't halted by resistance at Darwin, troops in PNG or sinking sub's in Sydney harbor. The myth of 'if it wasn't for the troops, the US or whoever, we'd be speaking japanese' is a MYTH, the Japanases had zero intention of invading australia, they had control over territories and resources they needed already, it was proposed by the navy in 1942 and completely and totally opposed by the army and prime minister, it was NEVER going to happen.
Now speaking hypothetically, if the indigineous culture was dominant at the time of course they would have had peace treaties with the Japanese instead of the arrogance and racial discrimination against the Japanese shown by US and the allies which of course contributed to the deterioration of the relationship between Japan and the allies who it fought alongside in WWI.
Technology doesn't equal weapons, successful society doesn't equal colonialism/expansionism, there are other modes which you refuse to acknowledge in your argument. Modes that have existed and do exist as alternatives, successful alternatives.
Mate, you are forgetting that Japans decision not to invade, but starve us into submission by cutting off our communications with our allies, was a decision made DUE TO US BEING HERE...... How would you know what the Japanese government would've thought if in say 1939 or 1940, they knew a massive chunk of land below Indonesia was only inhabited by hunter gatherer tribes with no recognized government..... In fact it's just a hypothetical... To even consider a whole continent would be left on it's peaceful own till 1941 is just not likely....
No country, not France, not Japan, not Spain, not anyone, would've left a resource rich continent untouched, and allow it's hunter gatherer inhabitants to continue on their merry way..... And as I said above, even Spain were considering an invasion....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/austral...
We could take this "hypothetical to all angles..... Thatmiraculously only the aboriginals were here in 1941..... That Japan took over the Australian continent.... That the USA still bombed the fuck out of Hiroshima.... That the USA still won the war...... Then what???? I'd put money on it that Australia would've become another state of the USA..... And we know how it went for the Indians.... We know how it goes for African Americans.... Whatever way you look at it , Silicun, the aboriginal way of life here was doomed...... Sad but true....
The only reason that Aboriginal culture lasted as long as it did was isolation.
The only reason that no other single culture could be sustained for the same amount of time was lack of isolation.
Yeah Uplift, Aboriginals are and always have been peace loving fairies.
So now that you've uncovered the shocking truth Lifty, what are you going to do about it ?
You moving back to England ?
Like I said they would have had peace treaties with Japan and have established strong trade relationships developing a kind of utopia that combined ancient wisdoms of understanding developing alongside other knowledge gained through contact with different cultures. Of course the British empire and the US would have failed as states by this stage as the international community shunned their uncivilized ways. Like you said, I wouldnt know and nor would you what the circumstances might be if history was in fact different, hence the pointless exercise of a hypothetical.
I'm not forgetting the Japanese decision not to invade, its a history I've studied in depth which is why I pulled you up on your misunderstandings. To this end I'll also correct you on your statement that the USA still won the war, to be correct Russia won the second world war, America's contribution was piddling in comparison.
You can't put money on something that is hypothetical, it makes no sense. While the Indian, African, Australian way of life might be gone it doesn't mean that parts of to don't exist still and that parts of it are worth appreciating and learning from. The world doesn't have to exist as a single mode of social order and culture.
Blowin wrote:The only reason that Aboriginal culture lasted as long as it did was isolation.
The only reason that no other single culture could be sustained for the same amount of time was lack of isolation.
Yeah Uplift, Aboriginals are and always have been peace loving fairies.
So now that you've uncovered the shocking truth Lifty, what are you going to do about it ?
You moving back to England ?
Isolated except for the fact that they had been trading for thousands of years through PNG and Indonesia and further north.
How many of those traders settled in Oz ?
A bit of trading on the Northern coast doesn't deny isolation for the other 99.99999 percent of the country.
If any settled it would be few although items traded all over oz making their way through national trade routes as well. This means that the culture wasn't isolated and that other cultures had contact and knew about Australia. The maccasans traded local wares with the Chinese but these cultures don't have the same colonial tendencies that Great Britain, Spain, France had. The Chinese were inward looking and did not look to conquer/pillage other countries, it was difficult for western countries to even trade with China they simply didn't have anything they wanted. China had the technology as far as ships and there is evidence of Chinese voyages this far south so if they had those tendencies it certainly wasn't beyond their capabilities.
Beautifully conditioned responses dawg, and blowly.
Again, yes all true dawg, ghenghis, chaka, atilla, and co, among all the other 'heroic', manic nuts that filled our history books and lessons, and 'Boys Own Annuals'. The bloodbath that all pupils 'learned' about. But, that has absolutely no effect on the Truth that:
"So the western way is to fight and conquer every mother fucking thing"
Just like I say bob wears a brown hat, and you notice that so do fred and joe... well, yeh, so, but... bob still does too.
The square, the box, inside the walls can't conceive that maybe being able to blow up everything with the push of button, isn't actually superior, and superior technology made things like boomerangs, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc... Again as already pointed out the Traditional Indigenous Australians had access to other cultures 'technology for an extremely extended period, in our historical, cultural view. However, their far more, all inclusive, advanced, sophisticated Cultures were able to perceive and understand the far reaching effects of staying in one place too long, being greedy, over populating. not managing the environment, and an endless list of bungles others have made. Each person's sophisticated education, which began before entering the womb, meant they intrinsically understood minute, yet far reaching details about the big picture. British stupidity and manicness, despite being surrounded by resourses, the inability of the bumbling invaders to be still, and absorb and decifer and understand information right before their senses was very apparent to them. As other Cultures have also pointed out, it's best summed up as madness, insanity.
'The only reason that no other single culture could be sustained for the same amount of time was lack of isolation.'
In your conditioned, ockerish opinion blowly. When its pointed out that your conditioned, uniformed, ignorant belief is not true at all, you blow the other foot off, by then pointing out that not all visiting cultures were driven to lie, cheat and steal other people's homes, or not all cultures were driven by the need to expand for the sake of power, or expand to try and make up for their repeated inability to manage their own bungled fuck ups, ala the british. Some were respectfull visitors, refined, sophisticated, not driven by brute urges.
There is every possibility that the brightest, most ingenius, most brilliant humans that have ever graced the planet were the reason responsible for Traditional Indigenous Australians astounding and unparallelled Cultural success. That is incomprehensible to the supposed technologically superior, and beautifully replicated and conditioned colonials, who unconsciously blowup at the very idea of it.
I knew you'd sqwark the 'back to faaarkin' britin' card blowly, I mean, what else could you do. There are actually infinite possibilities. Again, the Truth is the best starting point though.
So name one possibility that would see the Aboriginals regain their land and you retain yours.
Intrinsically understood minute details of the big picture before entering the womb....ha ha ha.
I can see the point you're trying to get across Lifty, but you've got to accept the Blackfellas as humans that made mistakes and learnt through trial and error like all other humans.
It may also surprise you to discover that Aboriginals are also capable of greed, envy, thievery and all kinds of common human emotions and mischievousness....and always have been.
I dare say they even usurped the land of those they could overpower at times.
That they didn't override the environment was learnt as a necessity to survival after overriding it through fire stick culture thousands of years earlier and I'd say that it would have taken a lot of learning the hard way to arrive at the outcome that without agricultural skills or the ability to store food long term then maybe it's not such a hot idea to eat every roo in two weeks time - although they certainly gave it a red hot go ... bear witness to the extinction of the megafauna at their hands.
I wouldn't expect anything else from yourself Lifty , another hypocritical white fella hating on himself and projecting it onto the rest of those "British ". So wishing you were black and living off the bush, so long as there were plenty of eggs and a gym handy.
Also hating on technology- where would you be without your pec deck you muppet ?
Damn useless technology - aircraft , cars, life saving medical procedures . Not to mention your internet that let's you alert uncaring strangers to your aversion to same technology.
I'm positive we've been through this before.
'Intrinsically understood minute details of the big picture before entering the womb....ha ha ha.'
Even our 'science' is starting to understand the effects of the environment, which includes attitude and thoughts, on genes, and so cells.
Just a farkin ornest questjun for yar blowy... ya hard boy, charga maaayte, ave I eva faarkin surfed with ya, ya tuff tuudin' bad boy shredda?
Yo bad mofucka, you!
Trial and error surely would have been an approach used in problem solving but that's not to say that learning and problem solving did not develop beyond this or in other ways such as observation etc to develop a complex system of understanding how the world/universe works and dealing with problems faced by the society.
I don't know how much is understood about the development of agricultural practices utilized by indigineous australians but to claim agricultural skills didn't exist or were learnt simply by trial and error is incorrect. Two simple examples are Yams which are an introduced species, most probably traded along with the information on how to propagate them and fish farms which you can still see in places around Aus, these are both agricultural practices and ways of storing food long term. Fire stick farming is far more complex than these and has similarities with the new buzz in agriculture, natural sequence farming.
The extinction of megafauna is not fully understood but it is not considered to have been solely at the hands of any peoples but a combination of more than one factor at least with the most likely real damage done byb climate change. From the Australian museum - "The extinction of megafauna around the world was probably due to environmental and ecological factors. It was almost completed by the end of the last ice age. It is believed that megafauna initially came into existence in response to glacial conditions and became extinct with the onset of warmer climates.
In temperate Eurasia and North America, megafauna extinction concluded simultaneously with the replacement of the vast periglacial tundra by an immense area of forest. Glacial species, such as mammoths and woolly rhinocerous, were replaced by animals better adapted to forests, such as elk, deer and pigs. Reindeers (caribou) retreated north, while horses moved south to the central Asian steppe. This all happened about 10 000 years ago, despite the fact that humans colonised North America less than 15 000 years ago and non-tropical Eurasia nearly 1 million years ago.
At the end of the last ice age, Australia's climate changed from cold-dry to warm-dry. As a result, surface water became scarce. Most inland lakes became completely dry or dry in the warmer seasons. Most large, predominantly browsing animals lost their habitat and retreated to a narrow band in eastern Australia, where there was permanent water and better vegetation. The diprotodon, one of Australia's megafauna, may have survived on the Liverpool Plains of New South Wales until about 7000 years ago. If people have been in Australia for up to 60 000 years, then megafauna must have co-existed with humans for at least 30 000 years. Regularly hunted modern kangaroos survived not only 10 000 years of Aboriginal hunting, but also an onslaught of commercial shooters.
Worldwide, there is no evidence of Indigenous hunter-gatherers systematically hunting nor over-killing megafauna. The largest regularly hunted animal was bison in North America and Eurasia, yet it survived for about 10 000 years until the early 20th century. For social, spiritual and economic reasons, Indigenous hunters harvested game in a sustainable manner."
Its not a matter of one or the other and this is the interesting thing about the times we are in, as western culture is developing a keener sense of the world around them the way we interact with it is changing, albeit slowly. A successful society will be closely aligned with the attributes that made these societies so successful.
As I've mentioned before, in the Australian context the wrongs need to be righted and that won't start to happen until we appreciate the scale of the disaster we have impacted upon aboriginal australians. Its not about hating on white people but about opening our minds and our arms to the people who by our legal rights own the country we live in and the resources we have become wealthy on.
Ahhhh , lifty living in the aboriginal culture ..... No mirrors , I doubt it .
But , but ,but ........ I can just stand at the waters edge and look at , reflection and pose ...
Best still in this Koori world lifty wouldn't enter the water to surf for fear of ruining his perfect reflected image .
Oh hang on , this mythical modern native society would be no different for ' lift , still on the shores edge looking out at waters he won't surf . Status quo .
Silicun , the Japanese didn't seek to be an Empire of nothing . Strong nationalism breeds a need for land without high population densities , so that rules out most of Asia . Western culture and western ideals infiltrated their outlook on the rest of the world a very long time before the end of WWII . Ie Japan's electronic /industrial revelution . The mere thought of themselves annexing any further than their immediate neighbour was a seed planted by many of the European empires that came before their modern version . And forget the land being a sole target , ( although the fact that our beef is highly sort there now ) think of the commercial fishing opportunities that Aust . Still had in those days ..... Are you joining the dots here . Anyone for Dolphin soup ,( turtle was deemed off limits in the Japa-rigine treaty ) . YeNa' .
'Climate change, not human activity, led to megafauna extinction'
'Most species of gigantic animals that once roamed Australia had already disappeared by the time people arrived, a major review of the available evidence has concluded.'
“The interpretation that humans drove the extinction rests on assumptions that increasingly have been shown to be incorrect.'
Lil, broke back chicken soufle' still trying to make up for shitting yourself and dodging blacks, with all vem wisks and wewards, and fibs, and tuwn orfs and stuff.
Oiii! Gluggsy... maaayte... wemember when ya got washed on vem wocks maaayte... me best farkin maaayyte... cos I got connections I 'ave... LUV PETE... wemember me.... PETE ve guy doing ve calcuwations and stuff.... glugggsy!!! MAAAYYYTEE.
@southy " the Japanese didn't seek to be an Empire of nothing . Strong nationalism breeds a need for land without high population densities , so that rules out most of Asia . Western culture and western ideals infiltrated their outlook on the rest of the world a very long time before the end of WWII . Ie Japan's electronic /industrial revelution . The mere thought of themselves annexing any further than their immediate neighbour was a seed planted by many of the European empires that came before their modern version . And forget the land being a sole target , ( although the fact that our beef is highly sort there now ) think of the commercial fishing opportunities that Aust . Still had in those days ..... Are you joining the dots here . Anyone for Dolphin soup ,( turtle was deemed off limits in the Japa-rigine treaty ) . YeNa' " no argument there southy and where did they seek!to expand? Into China, hence the sino Japanese war. As i mentioned and you can read at your leisure there was never any intent on invading Australia during ww2
China is a near neighbour of Japan . They have a long history ...
Australia really only entered their radar after the gold rush .
I'm not privy to Japanese official documents , but one would gather that the day they started a notion that no longer a family would rule was the day they stopped looking local for influences and opportunities . Official documents can say what they want , and obviously the Japanese didn't fear US , but I'm pretty sure they feared the wealth that the English represented . At a time that when the real wealth of this land was becoming apparent through resource exploration , the English were sidetracked and hamstrung at home . Letting the U.S. be engaged was vital in them cleaning up their home threat . Meanwhile the good Ol' US was paid to protect its " terroritories " abroad . After WWI and Great Depression the U.S. nearly rivalled the monarchy for power , after WWII it them gained the wealth and abroad representation / territory to see it become a super power . But considering it took on all of England/ Europes oligarchical banking and wealth systems it turns that they had just become a rather strong attack dog for the Europes benefit . No longer England stays the aggressor , they appear to charm and conjure upfront and behind the scenes act as puppet master .
China was an easy target and an obvious one. At the peak of their empire the Japanese held territories from China to Micronesia with the intent of expanding for resources they desperately needed at the time - coal, oil, rubber and proving their might. They were overstretched and had no capacity nor intent on an invasion of Australia, they understood the strategic weaknesses involved and the idea was directly opposed by the army and the prime minister. The territories they had taken were done so relatively easily they had no reason to at this time and that is the reality of WWII involvement of Japan with Australia, we simply weren't on the radar.
I really worry about the mental state of some of you guys..... ;)
Silicun , you write "Like I said they would have had peace treaties with Japan and have established strong trade relationships developing a kind of utopia that combined ancient wisdoms of understanding developing alongside other knowledge gained through contact with different cultures...."
Mate stop smoking the kumbaya pipe..... A myriad of ununified australian tribes would have peace treaties with Japan etc????? That's if Spain or France hadn't settled here first??? Trippin', man....
Russia won the second world war???? Dude, without several fronts on germany, without the USA supplying munitions via the atlantic ocean to Britain, the war would've been a helluva lot longer.... Germany's loss in North Africa..... Diplomatic pressure on Swedish Iron ore.... Did Russia cut off these oil and iron supplies, and did they bomb the fuck out of the german factories?? The fact that Russia had fuck all to do with japan during the war, bar a token effort late in 1945 when Japan was already fucked....
Mitchell Johnson didn't win the ashes...... Australia did.....
'A myriad of ununified australian tribes'
Again, just simply, wrong. A conditioned response. There was complete unity, with an overall brilliant respect and understanding for diversity. All respected and nourished, all were a vital part of the land. And all Traditional Indigenous Australians understood that, in minute detail, and used that understanding when moving through different Cultural areas, and when interacting and gathering, as they often did in different Cultural areas.
He he, worry about your own mental state sheepy its not worth the stress to worry about others itll do your head in. You introduced the hypothetical and admitted yourself as a hypothetical it could go off on any tangent, that's the thing with hypothetical isn't it, theyre not reality, not you nor I can judge what would have happened in a hypothetical situation.
I see you hit the google search, well done its good to learn a bit more about the intricacies of history. So did Mitchell Johnson sorry the usa win the war or the allies with Russia making the larger contribution?
silicun wrote:He he, worry about your own mental state sheepy its not worth the stress to worry about others itll do your head in. You introduced the hypothetical and admitted yourself as a hypothetical it could go off on any tangent, that's the thing with hypothetical isn't it, theyre not reality, not you nor I can judge what would have happened in a hypothetical situation.
I see you hit the google search, well done its good to learn a bit more about the intricacies of history. So did Mitchell Johnson sorry the usa win the war or the allies with Russia making the larger contribution?
"I see you hit the google search"....... Hahaha..... Cheers, silicun.... I was gonna say the same thing about you..... But as I have stated here many moons ago ( a more than fair chance you didn't see this), my mum was born in the 1930s in Berlin, and my dad is a Melbourne Aussie, who's dad and grand uncle fought against Japan..... So growing up, I heard some pretty interesting conversations, and arguments.... I'm sure Dave the rave can vouch for my mothers' psychotic german heritage, considering Dave and i went to school together..... WW2 was/is of great interest to me......
uplift wrote:'A myriad of ununified australian tribes'
Again, just simply, wrong. A conditioned response. There was complete unity, with an overall brilliant respect and understanding for diversity. All respected and nourished, all were a vital part of the land. And all Traditional Indigenous Australians understood that, in minute detail, and used that understanding when moving through different Cultural areas, and when interacting and gathering, as they often did in different Cultural areas.
If I'm wrong, lift, I'm wrong.... No problems with that...... But it seems silicun and yourself are avoiding the crunch of my original post...... The Aboriginal way of life was sadly doomed.... If it wasn't the brits, it would've been someone else..... Doesn't make it right...... Just as profits from the amazon doesn't make it right re' whats happening right now..... It's sad..... It's bad...... But that's the way it is.... "good will always triumph over evil" is bullshit..... To the victor goes the spoils, including the right to twist history....
Aaaahhhh your a classic sheepy, thanks for the convo, I've enjoyed it :)
No-one got anything to say about the loss of the car industry under a government and high viz Tony that promised to create 1,000,000 jobs?
Slumber away ........