The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
remember the footage coming out of Ukraine that was shown to be from different wars in different countries over different time periods?
You'd be deluded to think that isn't happening now and on a larger scale.
The footage can also be "real" but highly selective, biased, intentionally the most provocative possible, taken out of context, framed and sold as something that it isn't, etc. Think of the "hospital bombing" scenario.
The media reports figures and commentary from Hamas authorities verbatim like they're gospel and truth.
Most the videos JF (and others) posts are clearly Iranian/Hamas/Russian/Chinese propaganda and information war.
One could go on and on...
It would be bizarre to believe any of it.
gsco mkII wrote:remember the footage coming out of Ukraine that was shown to be from different wars in different countries over different time periods?
You'd be deluded to think that isn't happening now and on a larger scale.
The footage can also be "real" but highly selective, biased, intentionally the most provocative possible, taken out of context, framed and sold as something that it isn't, etc. Think of the "hospital bombing" scenario.
The media reports figures from Hamas authorities verbatim like its gospel and truth.
One could go on and on...
It would be bizarre to believe any of it.
“The media reports figures from Hamas authorities verbatim like its gospel and truth.”
And noideaGuy, andy, soggybiscuit and others never question the figures and are happy to repost and spread the lies…it’s almost as if they support Hamas, kinda, in an indirect way which allows them to cry when it is pointed out to them.
gsco mkII wrote:yes correct Stu things changed after I went back to China last year, and I've already been over this with Bonza and etarip a few months or more ago. All good that you didn't notice.
Various people have expressed the opinion to me that anyone now working in and contributing to Chinese society is committing treason against the West. It's one reason I came back.
Oh what, things are a little more nuanced than first thought? Wow what a flip.
On the subject of misinformation.
Both Haaretz and the Times of Israel reported the two hostages rescued from Rafah this week had been released in December and again on Feb 2.
Yeah right 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 pic.twitter.com/bvsGtCqdmc
— Anon Gooner (@anontyoine) February 13, 2024
Is that right? pic.twitter.com/7xQUGOlIlv
— mellow elephant (@mellow_elephant) February 13, 2024
The most incredible thing they did was to rescue hostages that were already released pic.twitter.com/fFABnPRoem
— ProTeneb (@ProTeneb) February 13, 2024
No western media is allowed into Gaza by the IDF. Independent verification of facts is difficult and both sides could be accused of misinformation.
I have no idea whether the December and Feb 2 reports were true or mistaken.
Neither were later corrected by the Israeli media outlets.
I don't have the time or inclination to look further into this. Could maybe be a job for TBB to do one of his deep dives into. He's pretty good at that type of thing.
There is some misreporting going on somewhere in relation to what happened to these two men.
Craig wrote:gsco mkII wrote:yes correct Stu things changed after I went back to China last year, and I've already been over this with Bonza and etarip a few months or more ago. All good that you didn't notice.
Various people have expressed the opinion to me that anyone now working in and contributing to Chinese society is committing treason against the West. It's one reason I came back.
Oh what, things are a little more nuanced than first thought? Wow what a flip.
if only you knew. Quite a flip yes, but I'd say the situation with China gets clearer and less nuanced by the day. All good
gsco mkII wrote:remember the footage coming out of Ukraine that was shown to be from different wars in different countries over different time periods?
You'd be deluded to think that isn't happening now and on a larger scale.
The footage can also be "real" but highly selective, biased, intentionally the most provocative possible, taken out of context, framed and sold as something that it isn't, etc. Think of the "hospital bombing" scenario.
The media reports figures and commentary from Hamas authorities verbatim like they're gospel and truth.
Most the videos JF (and others) posts are clearly Iranian/Hamas/Russian/Chinese propaganda and information war.
One could go on and on...
It would be bizarre to believe any of it.
So just getting back to that book you so fervently refer to by Robert Fisk. Where does his narrative on the Palestinian issue stand in this propaganda scenario of yours?? Or do your propaganda claims only present themselves in a visual format?? Because if you turned his book into a televised documentary it would pretty much be the same horrific and degrading stuff you see in these "propaganda" clips you refer to.
he presents one perspective or side of events, and one can find equally well reasoned and evidenced accounts of things from other perspectives also containing additional information.
Read this this morning on twitter, a post by Alon Mizrah who describes himself as "A universally loved Arab Jew + author, blogger, public speaker out of Israel. No occupation/oppression for me, please. Very precious, so handle with care"
Thought it was interesting and maybe relevant to what's currently being discussed here.
"People are saying that they're feeling like they're going crazy. I want to congratulate you on displaying great courage and conviction. And I will tell you why: because in the past few months you have been mostly successfully withstanding a psychological warfare campaign of a massive, massive scale.
I am not talking about trolls and bots and the obvious complicity of mass media. I am talking about something entirely different: a well planned, well executed and heavily budgeted campaign by US and Israeli organs of government responsible entirely for fooling great numbers of people into believing all kinds of nonsense (and not believing the simple truth).
This may sound shady (not to the radicals among us: they're aware), but I'll tell you that in Israel "Management of Consciousness" is a formal activity and department of the IDF. And I guarantee you the US is no different.
And throughout this campaign I have been noticing certain tactics used by Israel for "management of consciousness" being employed, massively, by American representatives (the Europeans are usually just useful idiots: no one needs to even lie to them smartly. And I'm talking about the "leaders").
-
I am by no means saying you have not been lied to before as Americans (or as citizens f another country). But I bet many of you feel you have never been lied to this blatantly, this brazenly, to an actually disorienting effect.
So I'm going to very briefly run through 3 such tactics, and then tell you why they're using them (nothing is ever coincidental about how power speaks). I promise you it's going to make a lot of sense. And you're going to recognize them immediately.
Tactic #1: denying what you know is true, and they know you know they know is true (or seriously claiming what they know you know is a lie). Examples: we did not, or are not attacking, so and so hospital, while people are there filming themselves being bombarded. Also: The IDF claims only militants were targeted in X incident, when you're looking at images of dead women and children. This can be called: lying to your face. repeatedly, even though it is obvious for everybody they're doing it, and you're seeing it.
Tactic #2: claiming, or doing, two things that are mutually exclusive. Examples: claiming to care about people and providing the means to kill them. Talking about the importance of aid while not using any kind of public message to warn Israel it cannot withhold it. Talking about values and democracy while defending and justifying a genocide. There are a million examples of this, I'm sure you'll come up with plenty more.
Tactic #3: saying things like "we'll investigate", "we'll look into it", or "we're waiting for confirmation". Two brothers shot by a sniper a month ago? A man waving a white flag shot in front of a camera? 3 Israeli hostages killed by IDF while waving white flags? A command center under a hospital? 100 People killed in one attack? 400? Who remembers? And by the way: we're still looking into it.
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Now if you'll notice, these 3 tactics have one very prominent element in common. Because these 3 tactics are used not to convince you of one reality or another. They are not trying to tell Israel is either good or bad, or that civilians die unjustifiably or not. This is not the point of all this, and this is why it feels like a break from previous traditions of political deceit.
The real purpose of these tactics is not to convince or dissuade you of anything in particular. They are meant to destabilize you psychologically. This is the disorientation I was referring to earlier. It is not coincidental, it is the desired effect of this strategy.
Yes, it is strategic.
This is what you do when you want a population confused and disarmed from any psychological certainty, which is the basis for all political motivation and action. But if you don't know what's happening, and not sure what your government does or stands for, what are you going to fight? How will you convince other to join you?
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They have been doing it to Israelis for decades: always talking from both sides of their mouth at the same time, denying what everybody watching knows is a complete lie and saying they'll investigate when it is clear it there is never any intention behind it.
-
By always maintaining two opposites in your consciousness, they are always giving you false hope, and always denying it, thus slowly breaking you (after 100 instances of this you stop hoping, and after 200 you forget hope ever lived in you). By always providing a grain of simulated recognition of your fears, they're letting you think that maybe you're heard and maybe not everything is a lie, but only to disappoint you a minute later. And again. Again.
My brothers and sisters, it is intentional. They are not sloppy or confused, but very methodical.
-
This is the very. very short and condensed version of what they're trying to do to us psychologically, which is really to disintegrate us not only as a society, but as individuals as well.
The trick to resisting this strategy is to always trust your instincts (because you are good and they work beautifully), and to always remember that they are using duplicity intentionally, strategically, to destabilize you. So your answer is, as always, clarity and resolve."
The above is working very well on Info and his cronies... they're very disoriented and discombobulated
;)
https://m.
&pp=ygUWY2hpbmEgZ2lybCBkYXZpZCBib3dpZQ%3D%3D GuySmiley wrote:Gday Bonza, I have another question for you after reflecting on your post ^^^
If it reasonable for the average person to legitimately question the tactics used by the Israeli government and the IDF that has resulted in the death of so many Palestinian civilians as well as the wholesale destruction of critical Gaza infrastructure why aren’t moderate Jewish leaders and peak councils speaking up against the atrocities here and around the world? I ask the question as I seem to remember Islamic leaders did speak out against ISIS and the like as our (western) politicians had demanded, do you remember that?
I wonder whether this apparent silence by moderate Jewish peak councils is seen by the general public as tacit support for the war’s direction in itself …. anyway looking forward to your reply, cheers
HI Guy - Yes of course it reasonable to ask those questions. As do I. I abhor what is going on -I have no idea what the right strategy is. I certainly empathise with Israel and its citizens that just want to protect their country and loved ones and get on with life. Israel packed up and left Gaza back in what 2005? Since then they have been attacked relentlessly by Hamas.
There are plenty of jewish & israeli leaders, intelligentsia & community members that are asking those questions publicly too- as has been posted by jelly and co since day 1. But once again why should the jewish leaders and councils speak out against the Israel government? That is suggesting or linking blame or guilt to the former for the later, which is an antisemitic position.
Yes I remember the "demands". The two situations are very different. Israel is a secular democratic liberal state for starters as are many of their citizens (edit: as in many of thieir citz are secular). Israel citizens and members of the Jewish diaspora do not represent a global security threat unlike islamic jihadists e.g ISIS and Hamas actors, supporters and sympathisers. Islamists who want to kill every jew and apostate and install a global islamic caliphate under sharia law. Islamists who are happy to undertake horrible acts of rape, murder and violence specifically on innocents to do it. It is reasonable, indeed it is the right thing, to "demand" leaders of a religion that preach in our community, that espouse those values and beliefs to demand their faithful refrain from doing so. Every religion has its extremists but its not the faith of the Christians, or Jews or Hindus as to why we take our shoes of every time we wish to pass airport security.
bonza wrote:GuySmiley wrote:Gday Bonza, I have another question for you after reflecting on your post ^^^
If it reasonable for the average person to legitimately question the tactics used by the Israeli government and the IDF that has resulted in the death of so many Palestinian civilians as well as the wholesale destruction of critical Gaza infrastructure why aren’t moderate Jewish leaders and peak councils speaking up against the atrocities here and around the world? I ask the question as I seem to remember Islamic leaders did speak out against ISIS and the like as our (western) politicians had demanded, do you remember that?
I wonder whether this apparent silence by moderate Jewish peak councils is seen by the general public as tacit support for the war’s direction in itself …. anyway looking forward to your reply, cheers
HI Guy - Yes of course it reasonable to ask those questions. As do I. I abhor what is going on -I have no idea what the right strategy is. I certainly empathise with Israel and its citizens that just want to protect their country and loved ones and get on with life. Israel packed up and left Gaza back in what 2005? Since then they have been attacked relentlessly by Hamas.
There are plenty of jewish & israeli leaders, intelligentsia & community members that are asking those questions publicly too- as has been posted by jelly and co since day 1. But once again why should the jewish leaders and councils speak out against the Israel government? That is suggesting or linking blame or guilt to the former for the later, which is an antisemitic position.
Yes I remember the "demands". The two situations are very different. Israel is a secular democratic liberal state for starters as are many of their citizens (edit: as in many of thieir citz are secular). Israel citizens and members of the Jewish diaspora do not represent a global security threat unlike islamic jihadists e.g ISIS and Hamas actors, supporters and sympathisers. Islamists who want to kill every jew and apostate and install a global islamic caliphate under sharia law. Islamists who are happy to undertake horrible acts of rape, murder and violence specifically on innocents to do it. It is reasonable, indeed it is the right thing, to "demand" leaders of a religion that preach in our community, that espouse those values and beliefs to demand their faithful refrain from doing so. Every religion has its extremists but its not the faith of the Christians, or Jews or Hindus as to why we take our shoes of every time we wish to pass airport security.
If you were coming into this war not knowing anything it's a legitimate question, but once you know as we all do that Hamas has intentionally woven military infrastructure throughout the Gaza community, then common sense answers things for most people.
And if you still dont understand at that point, then its very easy to actually go educate yourself about urban warfare and what adding the tunnels to the mix means.
Urban warfare being the most dangerous form of war especially for the attacking force, who have a huge disadvantage of coming from the open, being attacked by the enemy who have cover including snipers and with the enemy having the advantage of knowing the terrain and often set traps or put in place game plans based on an area or just set bobby traps and mines.
Adding in the tunnels, further disadvantage's the attacking forces even more, because tunnels can be used to flee if heavy fire or cornered, and double back on the IDF attacking them from behind, or even used to pop up very close to IDF attacking them before fleeing
To fight in a standard method of man to man combat for IDF without preparation of air strokes first, or tank or air support would be complete suicide, hamas would actually win that advantage would weigh heavily in their favour.
So instead the tactic is:
1. Air strikes: to key know Hamas targets like command centres, rocket launching sites, and known tunnel entrance's to weaken the enemy and break enemy order and communication and disorganize and weaken Hamas (this was done for weeks at the start of the war, and was smart that they didnt rush in like Hamas would have wanted, its been suggested USA was behind the stall )
2. Ground attack, with the support of tanks, which basically means where ever enemy fire comes from, its returned by IDF, if its a mass of fighters tanks strike and collapse buildings
Huge dozers go in before tanks to ensure a clear path and clear mines, they are also used to find tunnel entrances.
3. Air Support for ground forces, which means if IDF are in a situation where they are under heavy fire or know where tunnel entrances are because of the movement of IDF, they call in an air strike for support and end the fight.
4. Satellites and drones are used for surveillance even with special computer program's etc that pick up patterns of movement that point to tunnel entrance's/exit's, which are taken out by air strikes or tanks or if area already cleared, ground troops can use explosive's to blow up
Some of the above, actually needs to signed off first by a legal team to ensure rule of law is followed, for instance if they have intel off a command centre in a building, evidence needs to brought forward of why they think there is a command centre there. (i expect this will all be filed and kept as evidence for case's against Israel)
They dont just carpet bomb as some think, but yes certain bombs are not as advanced in targeting as others, so the correct bomb/misele needs to be used for the correct circumstance, depending on the size of target and whats around it.
The aim of war is to defeat the enemy, both sides try to use the advantages they have, and take away any of enemies advatages, that's what IDF have done and only reason they are having some sort of success and only reason why IDF deaths are only 200+ or so.
Dont forget Hamas has been preparing for this war for 18 years or more, its not a battle field thats ever been seen before and one of the hardest to fight in and literally impossible to avoid civilian deaths, the best strategy was to remove them from the areas under attack like they did, the real problem is now most of the people are where IDF still need to clear (Rafia) and one of the most important areas to clear.
If you dont understand all this, you are either brain dead, or you choose not too because it doesn't suit the view you want to hold.
BTW. Why on earth would any Jewish leader need to speak up about a military operation aiming to destroy the threat of a terrorist group to protect the people of Israel???
Most you think would support its people being protected.
Jeeezes. Who really is so dimwitted to compare ISIS with Israel?
The ability of noideaGuy to prove again how little he really thinks about things.
It’s beyond stupid.
@indo, I have a genuine question for you (and anyone else who has gotten into the politico-military side of all this).
Was there a point at which, when we were all aghast and disgusted by Oct 7, and all saw Hamas was beyond-broken and something drastic suddenly needed to happen, for Israel to seek support and guidance from the international community, from both sides of the fence?
I know nothing of all this, so forgive my ignorance, but did Israel jump in and wage an unwinnable war and start a conflict that would obviously make the global community feel just as disgusted as they were at Oct 7, where they could have sought long-term international sympathy and support, and long-term strategic partners in the region? Or at least shown that they tried to?
You all forgot the rockets….thousands of rockets raining down on the Israelis every day.
The rats have been building their nest since 2005.
They have not built an Arab utopia by the sea to bless their people with billions of dollars.
They built a rats nest underground to kill the neighbours.
They built it under women and children, families and hospitals.
The world didn’t care or do anything.
You and I would have had enough as well and responded in exactly the same way.
You evil clowns can’t even have a debate without hating and abusing anyone who sees it differently.
How then would YOU respond to an all out attack on you.
Get real..FFS.
Sorry Lord.
basesix wrote:@indo, I have a genuine question for you (and anyone else who has gotten into the politico-military side of all this).
Was there a point at which, when we were all aghast and disgusted by Oct 7, and all saw Hamas was beyond-broken and something drastic suddenly needed to happen, for Israel to seek support and guidance from the international community, from both sides of the fence?
I know nothing of all this, so forgive my ignorance, but did Israel jump in and wage an unwinnable war and start a conflict that would obviously make the global community feel just as disgusted as they were at Oct 7, where they could have sought long-term international sympathy and support, and long-term strategic partners in the region? Or at least shown that they tried to?
Just a small correction, basesix. I know you like accuracy and all.
“ I know nothing of all this, so forgive my ignorance, but did Israel jump in and wage an unwinnable war and start a conflict that”
Israel didn’t start this conflict, as you alluded to above this conflict started on Oct 7 when Hamas attacked and murdered 1200 innocent Israelis.
I know you will appreciate me pointing out this small error you no doubt inadvertently made.
Wow!
""The rats have been building their nest since 2005.""
No one has used language anything like that on this forum to describe their fellow human beings.
Most disgusting comment yet, well done!
Christain love and brotherhood on display there.
andy-mac wrote:Wow!
""The rats have been building their nest since 2005.""No one has used language anything like that on this forum to describe their fellow human beings.
Most disgusting comment yet, well done!
Christain love and brotherhood on display there.
That’s an insult to rats. Hamas are scum. But hey, you defend them andy.
They ain’t my fellow humans. They aren’t normal humans but hate filled pieces of shit that need removed from the face of the earth. Squashed underfoot like cockroaches would be too good for Hamas.
They murder their own people if they disobey them or question them. The murder children, old people, woman. No one is safe because of them.
basesix, I think the answer is
1. Israel has been in constant communication and coordination with many countries especially the US and UK for decades, since the very beginning, and through every twist and turn of Israel's modern existence, and
2. there was immediate and I might say frantic communication and coordination with and guidance from the US and other countries the very day it happened on October 7, and the US immediately announced its support of Israel, etc.
Israel didn't jump in unannounced and to everyone's surprise and against everyone's wishes and/or better judgement.
And the international community is very divided right now and not really "friends" that can get along and coordinate things in the interests of humanity. The world is polarising: US/EU/Commonwealth etc countries vs Russia, China and Iran.
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/israeli-palestinian...
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-us-policy-israeli-palestinian-conf...
bonza wrote:GuySmiley wrote:Gday Bonza, I have another question for you after reflecting on your post ^^^
If it reasonable for the average person to legitimately question the tactics used by the Israeli government and the IDF that has resulted in the death of so many Palestinian civilians as well as the wholesale destruction of critical Gaza infrastructure why aren’t moderate Jewish leaders and peak councils speaking up against the atrocities here and around the world? I ask the question as I seem to remember Islamic leaders did speak out against ISIS and the like as our (western) politicians had demanded, do you remember that?
I wonder whether this apparent silence by moderate Jewish peak councils is seen by the general public as tacit support for the war’s direction in itself …. anyway looking forward to your reply, cheers
HI Guy - Yes of course it reasonable to ask those questions. As do I. I abhor what is going on -I have no idea what the right strategy is. I certainly empathise with Israel and its citizens that just want to protect their country and loved ones and get on with life. Israel packed up and left Gaza back in what 2005? Since then they have been attacked relentlessly by Hamas.
There are plenty of jewish & israeli leaders, intelligentsia & community members that are asking those questions publicly too- as has been posted by jelly and co since day 1. But once again why should the jewish leaders and councils speak out against the Israel government? That is suggesting or linking blame or guilt to the former for the later, which is an antisemitic position.
Yes I remember the "demands". The two situations are very different. Israel is a secular democratic liberal state for starters as are many of their citizens (edit: as in many of thieir citz are secular). Israel citizens and members of the Jewish diaspora do not represent a global security threat unlike islamic jihadists e.g ISIS and Hamas actors, supporters and sympathisers. Islamists who want to kill every jew and apostate and install a global islamic caliphate under sharia law. Islamists who are happy to undertake horrible acts of rape, murder and violence specifically on innocents to do it. It is reasonable, indeed it is the right thing, to "demand" leaders of a religion that preach in our community, that espouse those values and beliefs to demand their faithful refrain from doing so. Every religion has its extremists but its not the faith of the Christians, or Jews or Hindus as to why we take our shoes of every time we wish to pass airport security.
Thanks Bonza,
Yes most people would be horrified with the direction this war has taken. It’s gross barbarism not helped by the brutal medieval tactics adopted by Hamas but seemingly matched by the “secular democratic liberal state” of Israel.
To ask moderate Jewish people and their peak councils to speak out against the Israeli government is a very complex thing, my moderate Jewish friend’s daughter married a ultra orthodox man and such is the animosity between the two the don’t speak to each other, can’t be in the same room without yelling and arguing! A very small example of how complex this situation can become very quickly.
The point I was trying to make about Islamic leaders speaking out is valid but was never intended to compare Israel with ISIS and the like. I note your comment about all religions have extremists but I would argue that Islamic terrorists misappropriated the banner of Islam because the vast majority of the world’s muslims are peace loving citizens of the countries in which they live (just like good people of all faiths).
One final point, the outcome of the IDFs tactics on innocent Palestinians from day one must be terrifying in the extreme, trapped no where to flee and the deployment of deadly force (note I have zero sympathy for Hamas) = extreme terror.
Roadkill wrote:andy-mac wrote:Wow!
""The rats have been building their nest since 2005.""No one has used language anything like that on this forum to describe their fellow human beings.
Most disgusting comment yet, well done!
Christain love and brotherhood on display there.That’s an insult to rats. Hamas are scum. But hey, you defend them andy.
They ain’t my fellow humans. They aren’t normal humans but hate filled pieces of shit that need removed from the face of the earth. Squashed underfoot like cockroaches would be too good for Hamas.They murder their own people if they disobey them or question them. The murder children, old people, woman. No one is safe because of them.
Many other links available regarding the use of language to describe a group.
https://www.npr.org/2011/03/29/134956180/criminals-see-their-victims-as-....
""Language has been used as an essential tool in the process of dehumanizing others.[60][61] Examples of dehumanizing language when referring to a person or group of people may include animal, cockroach, rat, vermin monster, ape, snake, infestation, parasite, alien, savage, and subhuman. ""
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehumanization#:~:text=Language%20has%20be....
First step of genocide is to dehumanise mate.
And @RK
Fark mate, if you do not have the cognitive ability to understand simple humanity and history, then fark off with suggesting I support Hamas or their brutality.
thanks @gsco,
to someone (me) who sees this as horrible and little else, and doesn't 'follow' the ins and outs of it, it just seems there is a great publicising of what a pluralist society Israel is, with ex-pats from Qatar, Yemen, Egypt living their best liberal democratic life.. given there are dead and hostages from such countries (and states), was there not a chance to look to the local region for sympathy and support after Oct 7?
And to transcend the global divide you speak of, even for a little while? Even just for the cameras? Seems a US-driven double-down on the divide you speak of. Do you see an end in sight as a result of this nightmare conflict?
andy-mac wrote:Wow!
""The rats have been building their nest since 2005.""No one has used language anything like that on this forum to describe their fellow human beings.
Most disgusting comment yet, well done!
Christain love and brotherhood on display there.
Faux outrage or you are 100% a drama queen.
Seriously,
""The rats have been building their nest since 2005.""
Triggered by an innocuous post.
Worst comment ever? Gawd that’s pathetic
I see AD got cancelled at all angles above
if alexander downer ain't to your taste...
what about a labor dude?
(yeh, I guess he's a jew or something...
so there's that...)
Labor MP Josh Burns has today bravely called out the @Greens political party for its systemic antisemitism.
— NSW Jewish Board of Deputies (@NSWJBD) February 12, 2024
“The thing that's really hurtful, the thing that really matters, is that, not one Greens MP, state or federal, has called out and publicly rebuked Ms Leong.
They all… pic.twitter.com/doTKlnxZQH
Wow. Really fascinating footage.
— Kosher🎗🧡 (@koshercockney) February 13, 2024
Watch as the IDF Soldiers give you a tour of Yahya Sinwar’s hideout.
Amongst this incredible footage of such a nasty Prick’s rat-hole, they show you his @UNRWA supplies and his safe with the Millions of Dollars and Shekels he had stashed below… pic.twitter.com/jACdu4FpIo
@ Indo "Some of the above, actually needs to signed off first by a legal team to ensure rule of law is followed, for instance if they have intel off a command centre in a building, evidence needs to brought forward of why they think there is a command centre there. (i expect this will all be filed and kept as evidence for case's against Israel)"
Nope.
"Given their geographic focus, Israeli ground forces must excel at
understanding and developing their local environment in order to
engage primarily dynamic or emerging targets, called Time Critical
Targets (“TCTs”) in IDF parlance. These are targets that suddenly
present themselves and have to be struck in real-time, as opposed to
pre-planned targets identified in advance of the operation. Because
Israel’s enemies often fight from urban areas and civilian structures,
many IDF targets are TCTs. Indeed, former MAG officers recounted
circumstances in which most of the preplanned targets were quickly
exhausted in the early days of a conflict and operations came to be
almost entirely dedicated to striking dynamic and emerging targets.
The Authors visited the Southern Command’s Gaza Division
headquarters to observe the IDF’s methodology for engaging TCTs.
The approach is centered on “Attack Cells” at the Division level and
Regional Commands. These cells provide the Division the capacity
to conduct simultaneous real-time targeting in a decentralized
manner that allows it to maintain speed and flexibility. The concept
of a special targeting cell operating out of a tactical headquarters is
not novel. In the U.S. system, each joint force commander fields
some type of targeting cell in which real-time intelligence is fused
and presented to a staff cell that brings together artillery, aviation,
and air force officers to locate, verify, and strike multiple targets.
The IDF has simply taken this concept and adapted
it to the specific military problem it faces in the Gaza Strip. Rather
than having one large targeting cell, IDF Divisions use multiple
smaller Attack Cells that are task-organized to confront specific
threats or take on discrete missions with a wide degree of autonomy
Attack Cells may be as large or as streamlined as the mission
requires, but all of them will have a certain minimum composition.
Each is under the responsible command of one officer (the Attack
Cell Commander), typically a Field-Grade Officer. The Commander
makes the ultimate decision on a strike, so long as the rules of
engagement permit the decision to be made at this level. In some
circumstances and with respect to certain targets, the rules of
engagement will specify higher level authorization.
The most prominent characteristic of the Attack Cells is the
decentralized nature of the targeting decisions. Multiple cells have
the authority to coordinate and direct strikes using the available
weapons platforms. Because the number, composition, and mission
of these cells varies based on the operation, and because cells
operate autonomously, it is essential that Cell Commanders be well-
versed in the Rules of Engagement, LOAC, and any specified
precautionary measures that are required before strikes are
executed.
IDF lawyers directly advise the Division Commander, but not
the Attack Cell commanders, a significant point in light of the
decentralized nature of the targeting. To ensure compliance with
LOAC rules, lawyers are heavily involved in developing targeting
rules and assisting the Division Commander in overseeing Attack
Cell operations. Strikes that fall outside the parameters provided to
the cell have to be elevated up the chain of command to the
appropriate decision-maker, who makes the final targeting decision
with the assistance of his legal advisor. As a general matter,
however, IDF lawyers are not involved in individual ground force
targeting decisions; in contrast, a U.S. targeting cell will always
contain an embedded legal advisor."
https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1905&conte...
So now you think you are better educated than others on the tactics of Urban Guerilla Warfare maybe you should educate yourself as to how the IDF actually operates under the Laws of Armed Conflict, where the "legal advisors" actually have no say in the decisions made by decentralised attack cell commanders on the ground.
I do note that you said "some of the above", the reality is that it is very little.
Contrast with the US system the IDF copied, whereby all attack cells have embedded lawyers advising on LOAC.
The example you provided, intelligence of the existence of a command center in a building, would, unless it was known prior to Oct7, be a TCT, outside the range of Central Divisional Command and the responsibility of Attack Cell Command who don't take LOAC advice from lawyers before striking a target.
It is also worth educating yourself on the concept of military necessity and proportionality under the Rules of War/ LOAC and how legal advice can be manipulated to suit opposing views of both. The opinion that carries the most weight so far in this conflict is that of the Justices of the World Court in the Hague who by overwhelming majority (16 to 1) have prima facie found that Israels exercise of it's right to self defence has exceeded both those concepts and is in fact genocide as defined by the Genocide Convention, which Israel is a signatory to.
You should also note the shift in attitude from many other western leaders towards Israel's illegal exercise of it's right of self defence currently occurring, in particular the US who has issued a 45 day directive to Israel to prove it is complying with International Law, in particular Human Rights law, or it with lose the financial and military support it currently enjoys.
They don't use lawyers to sign off on the vast majority of attacks, they also use their own and not independent lawyers to advise them and if the advice is contrary to their political objectives they ignore it anyway.
You think you are smart and understand these things but you are incapable of objective thought and only inform yourself with the things you want to hear.
Even decisions made with "legal advice" by Israeli commanders doesn't mean that legal advice is correct, and ultimately they operate under the instructions of political leadership which can ignore any advice they see fit which contradicts their political goals.
Those political goals, to anyone paying attention, are not confined to the defeat of Hamas, an insurgency, and an idea impossible to defeat militarily anyway, or the return of hostages, many of whom are being killed by Israel's IDF themselves. Bibi and his gangster Knesset partners have way broader goals than that.
Real estate for one.
I see the greens are still at it….the chickens rallying together to build more KFC’s.
Optimist wrote:I see the greens are still at it….the chickens rallying together to build more KFC’s.
By the next election cycle the Green position will have been forgotten or they will change it just for votes. And the silly people who think the Greens are useful will again vote for them.
@ Adam aka Hamas lover number 5
Sure there might be complications and technicalities but unlike Hamas who plays by no rules at all and couldn't care less about civilian deaths in Israel or even in Gaza, as your text below admits the IDF have their own legal team of lawyer's and legal advisors and when they have spoken on podcast interviews ive listened too, say they must sign off on certain operations/strikes.
Sure this might only be for key targets and not cover ground operations, but it still happens it not a free for all carpet bombing exercise as people like Guy think.
And im betting 9 out of 10 people here had no idea IDF had legal teams who advise and sign off on certain operations/targets.(as i didn't before i listen to them in podcast)
"IDF lawyers directly advise the Division Commander, but not
the Attack Cell commanders, a significant point in light of the
decentralized nature of the targeting. To ensure compliance with
LOAC rules, lawyers are heavily involved in developing targeting
rules and assisting the Division Commander in overseeing Attack
Cell operations. Strikes that fall outside the parameters provided to
the cell have to be elevated up the chain of command to the
appropriate decision-maker, who makes the final targeting decision
with the assistance of his legal advisor. As a general matter,
however, IDF lawyers are not involved in individual ground force
targeting decisions; in contrast, a U.S. targeting cell will always
contain an embedded legal advisor."
Dickwads such as Sargent Info, Roadthrill etc dont seem to understand that such mass murder will only achieve one definitive thing for the Zionists... compounded hatred that will rally new Hamas (and others) terrorists/freedom fighters for decades to come. Israel will never sleep peacefully.
Yes you’re right about the call to jihad being taken up far and wide. But that’s a reflection on the demonic Islamic doctrine not Israel. Do you think if Israel had not retaliated with a single bullet after oct 7 that they would sleep peacefully?
I will say it again .
Abraham Trumps Jihad !
The Iranians are Persian , not Arabs .
They have left Hamas to fight alone , for some reason , this time .
No foreign fighters are pouring into Gaza , 2 help Hamas .
They are on their pat malone with only their People as a Sponge , to take the brunt of the IDF .
Surrender Hamas .
It's the decent thing 2 do , in the current circumstances imho .
bonza wrote:Yes you’re right about the call to jihad being taken up far and wide. But that’s a reflection on the demonic Islamic doctrine not Israel. Do you think if Israel had not retaliated with a single bullet after oct 7 that they would sleep peacefully?
Regardless how you view Islam or Judaism or Christianity or whatever other manmade doctrine for meaning people suffer under, the ongoing historical brutality and dispossession by the Zionists towards the Palestinians will only now be 1000x fuel for the fire after this blatant mass murder.
harrycoopr wrote:Dickwads such as Sargent Info, Roadthrill etc dont seem to understand that such mass murder will only achieve one definitive thing for the Zionists... compounded hatred that will rally new Hamas (and others) terrorists/freedom fighters for decades to come. Israel will never sleep peacefully.
Hi Harry, no pleasantries? Or a simple hello / hi? Straight into name calling?
The hatred is already in Hamas and many others…even if Israel did nothing the Jihadists are there. To do nothing only emboldens Hamas and those jihadist nutters.
"@ Adam aka Hamas lover number 5"
Hahaha.
So now you're just a troll as well as an uneducated, smartarsed fuckwit with a big personality disorder.
You didn't comprehend a thing I wrote. How surprising. The quote spelled out that attack cells don't use lawyers and you didn't even understand that.
You are not capable of understanding basic things so I won't bother explaining anything to you.
Keep cheering on Bibi, war criminal, murderer lover number One.
Psychopaths love the work of other psychopaths. You are living proof.
Bet you moved your Jacinta Price poster off your bedroom wall and now toss off to a Bibi one.
You are the most derided and despised person on these threads for a reason, just a fucken sick stupid little boy man with an obsession to try and prove to a bunch of strangers that you are not the dumb arsed king of the dunces you actually deep down fear you are.
I pity your wife and kids, or anyone else forced to interact with you.
I even pity your dog or cat if you have one.
Go bump a Muslim woman at Dandy market to get a reaction again.
Go tell a muslim to their face how much you get off on seeing them slaughtered.
Just like the Dandy market woman, you only have keyboard guts, didn't have the guts to actually do it in real life, just came here to big man yourself where no one gives a fuck and most hate you and your presence here. There's literally thousands of posts saying that. Lack of self awareness another symptom of your personality disorders.
Tell us how people come up and say how great you are on SN again, and other shit you dream of that never happened.
Stupid, racist, disgusting fucking pea brained genocide gaylord.
Dickhead number one, no one comes close.
Keep having a crack. Easy on the keys, you'd shut your mouth in the flesh, I guarantee.
You deliberately try to trigger people, like you did with that little snipe, then lie and say you don't "get involved" in that sort of thing. Another symptom of your childish dullard self delusion.
Well trigger away at me all you want. I actually like it. Gives me a reason to tell you what I think of you.
Fire away keyboard tough guy.
basesix who knows what discussions have really taken place behind closed doors between world leaders. We can only speculate.
adam12 wrote:@ Indo "Some of the above, actually needs to signed off first by a legal team to ensure rule of law is followed, for instance if they have intel off a command centre in a building, evidence needs to brought forward of why they think there is a command centre there. (i expect this will all be filed and kept as evidence for case's against Israel)"
Nope.
"Given their geographic focus, Israeli ground forces must excel at
understanding and developing their local environment in order to
engage primarily dynamic or emerging targets, called Time Critical
Targets (“TCTs”) in IDF parlance. These are targets that suddenly
present themselves and have to be struck in real-time, as opposed to
pre-planned targets identified in advance of the operation. Because
Israel’s enemies often fight from urban areas and civilian structures,
many IDF targets are TCTs. Indeed, former MAG officers recounted
circumstances in which most of the preplanned targets were quickly
exhausted in the early days of a conflict and operations came to be
almost entirely dedicated to striking dynamic and emerging targets.The Authors visited the Southern Command’s Gaza Division
headquarters to observe the IDF’s methodology for engaging TCTs.
The approach is centered on “Attack Cells” at the Division level and
Regional Commands. These cells provide the Division the capacity
to conduct simultaneous real-time targeting in a decentralized
manner that allows it to maintain speed and flexibility. The concept
of a special targeting cell operating out of a tactical headquarters is
not novel. In the U.S. system, each joint force commander fields
some type of targeting cell in which real-time intelligence is fused
and presented to a staff cell that brings together artillery, aviation,
and air force officers to locate, verify, and strike multiple targets.The IDF has simply taken this concept and adapted
it to the specific military problem it faces in the Gaza Strip. Rather
than having one large targeting cell, IDF Divisions use multiple
smaller Attack Cells that are task-organized to confront specific
threats or take on discrete missions with a wide degree of autonomy
Attack Cells may be as large or as streamlined as the mission
requires, but all of them will have a certain minimum composition.
Each is under the responsible command of one officer (the Attack
Cell Commander), typically a Field-Grade Officer. The Commander
makes the ultimate decision on a strike, so long as the rules of
engagement permit the decision to be made at this level. In some
circumstances and with respect to certain targets, the rules of
engagement will specify higher level authorization.The most prominent characteristic of the Attack Cells is the
decentralized nature of the targeting decisions. Multiple cells have
the authority to coordinate and direct strikes using the available
weapons platforms. Because the number, composition, and mission
of these cells varies based on the operation, and because cells
operate autonomously, it is essential that Cell Commanders be well-
versed in the Rules of Engagement, LOAC, and any specified
precautionary measures that are required before strikes are
executed.IDF lawyers directly advise the Division Commander, but not
the Attack Cell commanders, a significant point in light of the
decentralized nature of the targeting. To ensure compliance with
LOAC rules, lawyers are heavily involved in developing targeting
rules and assisting the Division Commander in overseeing Attack
Cell operations. Strikes that fall outside the parameters provided to
the cell have to be elevated up the chain of command to the
appropriate decision-maker, who makes the final targeting decision
with the assistance of his legal advisor. As a general matter,
however, IDF lawyers are not involved in individual ground force
targeting decisions; in contrast, a U.S. targeting cell will always
contain an embedded legal advisor."
https://scholarship.law.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1905&conte...So now you think you are better educated than others on the tactics of Urban Guerilla Warfare maybe you should educate yourself as to how the IDF actually operates under the Laws of Armed Conflict, where the "legal advisors" actually have no say in the decisions made by decentralised attack cell commanders on the ground.
I do note that you said "some of the above", the reality is that it is very little.
Contrast with the US system the IDF copied, whereby all attack cells have embedded lawyers advising on LOAC.
The example you provided, intelligence of the existence of a command center in a building, would, unless it was known prior to Oct7, be a TCT, outside the range of Central Divisional Command and the responsibility of Attack Cell Command who don't take LOAC advice from lawyers before striking a target.
It is also worth educating yourself on the concept of military necessity and proportionality under the Rules of War/ LOAC and how legal advice can be manipulated to suit opposing views of both. The opinion that carries the most weight so far in this conflict is that of the Justices of the World Court in the Hague who by overwhelming majority (16 to 1) have prima facie found that Israels exercise of it's right to self defence has exceeded both those concepts and is in fact genocide as defined by the Genocide Convention, which Israel is a signatory to.
You should also note the shift in attitude from many other western leaders towards Israel's illegal exercise of it's right of self defence currently occurring, in particular the US who has issued a 45 day directive to Israel to prove it is complying with International Law, in particular Human Rights law, or it with lose the financial and military support it currently enjoys.
They don't use lawyers to sign off on the vast majority of attacks, they also use their own and not independent lawyers to advise them and if the advice is contrary to their political objectives they ignore it anyway.
You think you are smart and understand these things but you are incapable of objective thought and only inform yourself with the things you want to hear.
Even decisions made with "legal advice" by Israeli commanders doesn't mean that legal advice is correct, and ultimately they operate under the instructions of political leadership which can ignore any advice they see fit which contradicts their political goals.
Those political goals, to anyone paying attention, are not confined to the defeat of Hamas, an insurgency, and an idea impossible to defeat militarily anyway, or the return of hostages, many of whom are being killed by Israel's IDF themselves. Bibi and his gangster Knesset partners have way broader goals than that.
Real estate for one.
Adam12. That’s some kind of intelligence in that piece. Great work I must say.
I learnt more from that explanation for a saner resolution than all that’s come before it.
I , like you and others have never stated we support the actions of Hamas, or that of Israel’s over the top blatant slaying of innocent people of all ages.
I hope they seriously go hard at them at The Hague and find them guilty of the highest order and level of genocide.
This killing must stop now.
All Israeli simps should be ashamed to even defend and support such actions.
This is beyond a two sides game now, it’s entered the disgusting phase of abhorrent human behaviour.
Keep up your good work and never take a step backwards. AW
@AW,
thanks mate, at least you got it so the effort was worth it. Available anytime for commentators like you here.
Pity the girly boy troll it was directed to just ignores detailed, referenced objective information in preference of ignorance, self delusion, war mongering, murder monkeying and pathetic attempts to trigger with a pop gun that's got no bullets to pop.
As for footwork, I spent years sweating my arse off learning it. I'll take backward steps only to plant my back foot to give the forward lunge more power, I'll take side steps to change the angle and break through a defence, I can even still shuffle like Muhammad the Champ of Champs, actually did a couple today in my kitchen 'cause the lino floor is conducive to it. Still got the shuffle. But yeah, I'm a front foot fighter, sometimes you can walk into one so you need a hard head, and know defence. But the lightweights like old mate genocide girl @ Indo you can fight flat footed with one handed slaps, with a sandwich or a coffee in the other, watching TV as you do it, thinking about other things that actually matter to you, just a bit of fun really.
;)
https://m.
Roadkill wrote:basesix wrote:@indo, I have a genuine question for you (and anyone else who has gotten into the politico-military side of all this).
Was there a point at which, when we were all aghast and disgusted by Oct 7, and all saw Hamas was beyond-broken and something drastic suddenly needed to happen, for Israel to seek support and guidance from the international community, from both sides of the fence?
I know nothing of all this, so forgive my ignorance, but did Israel jump in and wage an unwinnable war and start a conflict that would obviously make the global community feel just as disgusted as they were at Oct 7, where they could have sought long-term international sympathy and support, and long-term strategic partners in the region? Or at least shown that they tried to?
Just a small correction, basesix. I know you like accuracy and all.
“ I know nothing of all this, so forgive my ignorance, but did Israel jump in and wage an unwinnable war and start a conflict that”
Israel didn’t start this conflict, as you alluded to above this conflict started on Oct 7 when Hamas attacked and murdered 1200 innocent Israelis.
I know you will appreciate me pointing out this small error you no doubt inadvertently made.
And your position along with Indo and Opti on this. That the history of the conflict starts on Oct 7 this year. It was completely unprovoked and the Israeli’s have exercised good diplomacy and restraint throughout. Which has time and time again proven to be incorrect. Then you cry and make up shit, then accuse everyone else of being simps etc. i mean chief cockwomble even called for my deportation. Is why you deserve nothing more than condescending abuse.
And as for Indo’s eggspurt military opinions, how many of your eggspurt s have been involved in a war that was anything more than a massive transfer of tax payers dollars to arms manufacturers, and where they achieved the stated goals. You’ll have go all the way to WWII and if you know your shit, it was largely the efforts of the Russians. Every where else these hawkish cunts go they create misery and terror then walk away with the dollars leaving local populations traumatised, broke and often in chaos. Let’s see how Ukraine plays you three little war pigs.
Edit: RK, the tone of your reply to basix. You really are a sniveling cunt aren’t you.
Yep
The change!!
soggydog wrote:Roadkill wrote:basesix wrote:@indo, I have a genuine question for you (and anyone else who has gotten into the politico-military side of all this).
Was there a point at which, when we were all aghast and disgusted by Oct 7, and all saw Hamas was beyond-broken and something drastic suddenly needed to happen, for Israel to seek support and guidance from the international community, from both sides of the fence?
I know nothing of all this, so forgive my ignorance, but did Israel jump in and wage an unwinnable war and start a conflict that would obviously make the global community feel just as disgusted as they were at Oct 7, where they could have sought long-term international sympathy and support, and long-term strategic partners in the region? Or at least shown that they tried to?
Just a small correction, basesix. I know you like accuracy and all.
“ I know nothing of all this, so forgive my ignorance, but did Israel jump in and wage an unwinnable war and start a conflict that”
Israel didn’t start this conflict, as you alluded to above this conflict started on Oct 7 when Hamas attacked and murdered 1200 innocent Israelis.
I know you will appreciate me pointing out this small error you no doubt inadvertently made.
And your position along with Indo and Opti on this. That the history of the conflict starts on Oct 7 this year. It was completely unprovoked and the Israeli’s have exercised good diplomacy and restraint throughout. Which has time and time again proven to be incorrect. Then you cry and make up shit, then accuse everyone else of being simps etc. i mean chief cockwomble even called for my deportation. Is why you deserve nothing more than condescending abuse.
And as for Indo’s eggspurt military opinions, how many of your eggspurt s have been involved in a war that was anything more than a massive transfer of tax payers dollars to arms manufacturers, and where they achieved the stated goals. You’ll have go all the way to WWII and if you know your shit, it was largely the efforts of the Russians. Every where else these hawkish cunts go they create misery and terror then walk away with the dollars leaving local populations traumatised, broke and often in chaos. Let’s see how Ukraine plays you three little war pigs.Edit: RK, the tone of your reply to basix. You really are a sniveling cunt aren’t you.
Look at you go, soggybiscuit. However, you are tone deaf. :-)
basesix wrote:@indo, I have a genuine question for you (and anyone else who has gotten into the politico-military side of all this).
Was there a point at which, when we were all aghast and disgusted by Oct 7, and all saw Hamas was beyond-broken and something drastic suddenly needed to happen, for Israel to seek support and guidance from the international community, from both sides of the fence?
I know nothing of all this, so forgive my ignorance, but did Israel jump in and wage an unwinnable war and start a conflict that would obviously make the global community feel just as disgusted as they were at Oct 7, where they could have sought long-term international sympathy and support, and long-term strategic partners in the region? Or at least shown that they tried to?
Im not sure if i really understand your question, but Israel decision to retaliated to the attack on 7th October wasn't really a choice even Biden said something like(paraphrasing)
"Not only does Israel have a right to retaliate, but it has a duty too retaliate",
I know some here will say differently but any nation with the ability to do so would do the same especially when you have hundreds kidnapped, and the majority of people in Israel support the war on Hamas, Israel is also have said to have had strategic guidance from the USA in the early days at least.
Like any country obviously they should make decision's based on what they believe is best for their country and people, not based on how other countries might perceive them, and the public view anywhere also varies a lot, the views here and on the streets might be vocal against Israel, but that doesn't mean it's how everyone thinks or even the majority think, for example overall USA support is still said to be in the high 70% range for Israel.
For some perspective 9/11 saw under 3,000 people dead, if you look at things on a percentage of population terms it's said that if 7th October happened in the USA it would be like the equivalent of 38,000 USA deaths and thousands kidnapped.
USA went to war in the middle east for years after 9/11 over 3,000 dead, imagine if it was 38,000 USA deaths what the USA would do?
Can you imagine the USA going, oh okay no worries we will just let it slide.
And in reality the risk of another 9/11 in USA was always low because upping security and surveillance etc minimises the risk greatly, while in Israel that is not the case their enemy is literally a few hundred metres away behind a fence, every day they live with a very real risk of another 7th October or worse, so they really have no choice to try to get rid of that threat or greatly reduce it.
In regard to other nations in the middle east or future relations or long-term strategic partners, dont just assume this war is all a negative for Israel, ive listened to many views and while they vary varied, some suggest the exact opposite.
Remember Iran is the puppet master and many countries in the middle east (particularly Saudi Arabia) fear the growing strength of Iran and it's proxies, its much more complicated than might appear on the surface.
It's important to understand that how other countries/cultures view things is very different to how many in the west do, even those that don't like Israel in the middle east would still respect the fact they went to war especially if they finish the job, doing nothing would be seen as being weak and only be an invitation for Hamas or others to attack again, while Israel is showing what others risk happening to them if dare to do the same.
In regards to Egypt, while they fear refugees or hamas entering Egypt and in a sense dont want to appear to support Israel, they also want Hamas gone, Hamas have links to the muslim brotherhood that can cause issues in their country/politics, Egypt need to look tough and opposing Israel but their narratrve has changed in the last few days.
"Egypt says peace treaty with Israel safe despite jitters over Rafah offensive"
https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-says-peace-treaty-with-israel-safe-d...
I dont know why your would say it's an unwinable war, Hamas can be taken out of power and Hamas can be defeated as a military threat just like the Nazi's were, that would be a clear win especially if key leaders were taken out (just as symbolic as anything), but even if this war ended tomorrow and Hamas stayed in power while Hamas would claim it as a win and say Israel lose while not ideal for Israel, its still would severally set back hamas and reduce the risk to Israel, and while Hamas would claim it as a win, really they have already lost in so many ways they are not exactly winners at this stage.
And every day the war continues Israel edge a little bit closer to their goals and everyday Hamas become a little weaker, currently 18 of the 24 Hamas battalions are dismantled, I watched a video yesterday(not the one below) that claimed 20,000 of 30,000 Hamas fighters are dead, but i cant find anything to support this, so personally im not buying that figure 15,000 (half) might be realistic based on the fact they were saying 10,000 a month or so ago.
Remember we are only 130 days in most wars go for years, you will always get varied opinions on anything, but personally im taking the view's of people with experience and knowledge over say some random journalist or Youtuber.
Pop Down wrote:I will say it again .
Abraham Trumps Jihad !
The Iranians are Persian , not Arabs .
They have left Hamas to fight alone , for some reason , this time .
No foreign fighters are pouring into Gaza , 2 help Hamas .
They are on their pat malone with only their People as a Sponge , to take the brunt of the IDF .
Surrender Hamas .
It's the decent thing 2 do , in the current circumstances imho .
This is a point military experts always bring up, a major aim of Hamas was to try to create one big war where Iran and others jump in and destroy Israel, but it hasn't worked out that way at all yeah sure Hezbollah are active in the north but its no where to the degree that Hamas would have wanted, this hasn't gone to plan for Hamas and they dont have the support from other countries that they had hoped for, and now they have bitten of way more than they can chew, they wont surrender, but they are on the way to being destroyed.
adam12 wrote:@AW,
thanks mate, at least you got it so the effort was worth it. Available anytime for commentators like you here.
Pity the girly boy troll it was directed to just ignores detailed, referenced objective information in preference of ignorance, self delusion, war mongering, murder monkeying and pathetic attempts to trigger with a pop gun that's got no bullets to pop.
As for footwork, I spent years sweating my arse off learning it. I'll take backward steps only to plant my back foot to give the forward lunge more power, I'll take side steps to change the angle and break through a defence, I can even still shuffle like Muhammad the Champ of Champs, actually did a couple today in my kitchen 'cause the lino floor is conducive to it. Still got the shuffle. But yeah, I'm a front foot fighter, sometimes you can walk into one so you need a hard head, and know defence. But the lightweights like old mate genocide girl @ Indo you can fight flat footed with one handed slaps, with a sandwich or a coffee in the other, watching TV as you do it, thinking about other things that actually matter to you, just a bit of fun really.
@adam12
“Float like a Butterfly, sting like a Bee”. AW.
"Bibi and his gangster Knesset partners have way broader goals than that.
Real estate for one."
Oct 7 was just the excuse the war criminal/mass murderer Netanyahoo was waiting for to unleash his "final solution". Sure Hamas may have been counting on Iran etc to back them up but as that didn't play out as expected only highlights Netanyahoo's over-the-top genocidal reaction. The Gaza strip is only 40 kms long!! And it's been blasted to oblivion... and Israel will be providing "security" afterwards. Really?? What was once described as the world's biggest open air prison before Oct 7 nows becomes another section under Israel control. Only the West Bank remains. Couldn't have come at a better time for that warpig Netanyahoo.
@Soggydog said "You’ll have go all the way to WWII and if you know your shit, it was largely the efforts of the Russians."
And you do know your shit Soggy. Spot on. It was the Red Army counteroffensive led by Zhukov that turned the Battle for Stalingrad in 1941 that started the Nazi demise and the Russians were the one's that decimated Hitlers best armies and chased the Nazis all the way to the bunker in Berlin. The Allies were great too, but the real credit for VE Day belongs to the Red Army, which is why Eisenhower let them enter Berlin first.
Good to see some on here know their history Soggydog.
Extra dog buscuits for that from me.
"Let’s be clear: the living conditions in Gaza before October 7th were horrific and inhumane – that was before Hamas ignited the latest war. Before this conflict, in Gaza, nearly 80 percent of people lived in poverty, and two-thirds were reliant on humanitarian assistance. Almost half the population, and over 70 percent of young people, were unemployed in Gaza. What kind of life could they look forward to? Electricity was intermittent, with 11- to 12-hour blackouts every day. Water and sanitation systems were inadequate, and there were constant shortages of all basic necessities. Gaza was mostly cut off from the world, with Israel and Egypt severely limiting the number of people and the types of goods that could go in or out. In fact, many observers described Gaza as “an open-air prison.” All of that is before October 7th." B. Sanders https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-amid-humanitarian-dis...'s%20be%20clear%3A%20the%20living,were%20reliant%20on%20humanitarian%20assistance.
indo-dreaming wrote:Pop Down wrote:I will say it again .
Abraham Trumps Jihad !
The Iranians are Persian , not Arabs .
They have left Hamas to fight alone , for some reason , this time .
No foreign fighters are pouring into Gaza , 2 help Hamas .
They are on their pat malone with only their People as a Sponge , to take the brunt of the IDF .
Surrender Hamas .
It's the decent thing 2 do , in the current circumstances imho .
This is a point military experts always bring up, a major aim of Hamas was to try to create one big war where Iran and others jump in and destroy Israel, but it hasn't worked out that way at all yeah sure Hezbollah are active in the north but its no where to the degree that Hamas would have wanted, this hasn't gone to plan for Hamas and they dont have the support from other countries that they had hoped for, and now they have bitten of way more than they can chew, they wont surrender, but they are on the way to being destroyed.
@info-dribbler the Elmer Fudd of SN
https://m.
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