The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
So @ Bonza, been waiting two hours nearly for your "eminent' opinion in rebuttal and as expected...crickets.
Not waiting any longer.
Easy to come on here, bag me out, say "it's not genocide", call me antisemitic, cut and paste a definition I'm well acquainted with, which actually disproves your point, claim you are qualified and then disappear when challenged.
Typical.
So, not my opinion, which you dispute as needing "brushing up", but that of the World Court was that they had jurisdiction under the Genocide Convention and the South African brief was plausible. 15 to 2. That makes it prima facie genocide.
If you are aware of things you would understand that is as far as they could go in those proceedings to find genocide. They further issued binding orders on Israel to prevent any further acts of genocide and to preserve any evidence, amongst other things.
Of course the final determination can take years and the World Court is not a criminal court, but the binding order to preserve evidence is important as that evidence can be used in the ICC criminal proceedings already referred by South Africa and other States for crimes against humanity and war crimes.
Had the World Court not believed in the plausibility requirement or standing of the applicant State, or in other words the prima facie existence of genocide they would not have made those findings or issued those orders and dismissed the case.
If you are a lawyer then you should understand that.
Now proving genocide is not easy, if you know any of the case law you will know that the most difficult aspect is the "intent" or "dolus specialis" element, which the case law, not the definition in the Convention, requires the existence of a State or organisational policy.
The South Africans presented compelling evidence of this, refuted by Israel, but it is the final determination that decides that issue.
I believe it exists, that there is ongoing ample evidence of it, which is why I have no problem calling it genocide.
You may have a different opinion but I have no idea as you just make a few slurs then back it up with nothing.
So again, fine, you can tell me I need to brush up on the law, that I am being antisemitic, a bully, and that it is not genocide, then back up your bullshit, give me a rebuttal opinion or I will regard you as full of shit like the other full of shit commentators that come on here and will pay no more serious attention to you.
Accuse me of being whatever skin thickness you want, but I'm the one still here prepared to back my words, where are you?
And btw, I have dozens of Jewish mates who's bar mitzvahs, weddings, sadly funerals, homes and businesses I have attended over many decades, who's Bubbe's wanted to adopt me, Who's Jewish sisters and friends they were happy for me to go out with. My mother taught half of the Jews in Melbourne's eastern suburbs to swim, had hundreds of Jewish friends and so loved them she insisted on being buried in a Jewish coffin.
You accuse me of wanting to threaten to beat you, which is a stupid thing to say considering we are not in the same room. Perhaps if we were and you said that to me I might fell that way inclined, but I'd prefer you just simply back your words and not disappear like a coward.
I don't care if these crimes are committed by Israel or any country on Earth, I would say the same.
The accusation of antisemitism says more about you than me in my opinion. It is a weak cop out and an overused excuse for what is actually happening. I'm not saying it doesn't exist or is not happening right now. But it is not and never would be my motivation and I find it offensive actually.
Look forward to your rebuttal and legal opinion to counter mine, won't be in the least surprised if none appears.
The floor is yours. take all the time you want now. I'll be waiting.
I’m not racist, I have black mates.
I’m not antisemitic, I have Jewish friends.
I’m not Islamophobic, I have Muslim friends.
I’m not misogynistic, I have daughters.
Roadkill wrote:I’m not racist, I have black mates.
I’m not antisemitic, I have Jewish friends.
I’m not Islamophobic, I have Muslim friends.
I’m not misogynistic, I have daughters.
And then always someone butting in:
Saying he doesn't support hamas, just critical of Israel and IDF.
This would be fine and believable if they actually spent as much time and energy being critical of Hamas, of which it's sooo much easier to be.
But the best is some throw away line, saying i don't support Hamas, i think what they did on 7th October was horrible.
And then lots of buts.
And again you never ever hear them suggesting Hamas should surrender and hand over the hostages, the easiest and most logical way to end the war.
These people like Adam are actually being used by Hamas like putty, brain dead zombies being manipulated to turn the West on Israel.
@ Bonza,
You are going to be wasting your time replying to Adam, he studied law but never practiced instead ended up a painter and decorator (nothing wrong with that), but it's his pet thing and he likes to think he is some legal expert, if you get him started he wont stop, i guess he needs to justify too himself those wasted years of study.
Ive gone and listened to as many legal experts on the topic as i can including the views that are really hard to listen too that go against what i want to hear, they all seem to disagree some say its utterly ridiculous and they have no case, some say they have a clear case.
If you chop it down the centre and try tio keep an open mind, it seems there is technical aspects where Israel might be breaking aspects of the convention, just silly things like ensuring phone signal goes down or energy supply goes out, or even moving people from north to south, even if the aim is to ensure less deaths.
Obviously for political reasons and to keep one side happy especially Arab states it had to go further to be looked at, but if it was a clear case as claimed, Israel would have already been forced to stop military action.
You would hope common sense prevails and it all gets thrown out after a long process, as would make a complete mockery of things if found guilty.
Like fuck, name one military that has gone to as much effort to remove civilians from areas being targeted or gives prior warning on areas even buildings in some case's that are going to be hit, from a military point of view its a terrible strategy and loses the important element of surprise and allows Hamas to flee.
If Israel wanted to target civilians they would have just left them in the war zone and not provided safe zones, and they could have wiped the whole of Gaza out in a few weeks if they wanted too.
I see Indonesia are smart enough not to even sign up to this convention, other countries should just drop out if its not taken seriously and just used to play world political games.
Anyone who can justify Netanyahoo 's murderous genocidal rampage is sick, demented and sociopathic... full stop.
The problem here with the ME ordeal is we have two well developed and formidable global movements aligned with each other and pushing the same agenda.
Much of the global left believes that October 7 was a triumph of the oppressed against racist white supremacist colonial oppressors. October 7 and the Palestine situation in general are highly symbolic of the global left's plight or struggle and its extreme Marxist ideology, in particular CRT.
Hence, the agenda of the global Marxist left strongly aligns with that of the Islamic fundamentalist world.
Much of both the global left and extreme Islam refuse to condemn October 7 as a terrorist attack, and refuse to classify Hamas as a terrorist operation. They view October 7 as a well planned military operation conducted by freedom fighters and any response from Israel and its colonialist allies, regardless of what the response would have been, is framed as further genocide by far right, fascist, racist white supremacists against an innocent, defenceless and oppressed peoples.
The agenda of both these global movements is the establishment of an Arab Muslim state from the river to the sea, the destruction of Israel and the removal of any vestiges of white supremacist colonialism in the Middle East and more generally from across the globe including Australia.
The other problem people are having in here, possibly a mistake being made, is they're trying to reason with people from the global left who worship its Marxist, CRT, postmodern extremist ideology, knowingly or unknowingly.
Both the global left and the extreme Islam world believe that truth, reason, evidence and facts etc, even science, are Western white supremacist inventions and tools of colonial oppression, because these things were largely developed and brought to the fore of life - in particular replacing and downplaying the role of religion - in the Enlightenment period of Western history by white people, and they are a major, central principle underpinning our Western civilisation that significantly helped create the developed, modern, technologically advanced and successful Western nations that we live in today. CRT 101.
Hence, the left and extreme Islam are also in a struggle against a belief in truth, reason and evidence since they are one of the main tools of the white colonial oppressor. So they simply dismiss and fight against any attempts at reason and immediately go into the standard Marxist gorilla information warfare techniques, particularly toxic personal abuse and cancelling, ignoring of facts, twisting what one is saying into something else, singling out only very small aspects of one's overall argument, etc, and most importantly presenting only very highly selective, biased, emotive anecdotal evidence and lived experience examples as their new criteria of "factual evidence" and "truth".
Hence all of the toxic disgrace above.
Indo claiming his 4 months of youtube and podcasts allows him a greater understanding of law as opposed to Adam12 who's done the hard yards of study, is possibly the most insane, ridiculous, and funny thing i've ever seen on these pages.
Zero comprehension at all of the insane dedication and mindset required to successfully complete a law degree. Haha fark me, seen it all now.
Morning Adam.
You waited ~2 hours until midnight for a nobody on surf website to reply to you? I'm flattered.
I wasn’t bagging you out adam. Just pointing out that you were both wrong and using language that was antisemitic. Check that chip shoulder big fella.
I'm not a lawyer Adam. Just a human with a keyboard. Again I'm flattered. Must be a piss easy degree.
Ok here we go….
You said "They further issued binding orders on Israel to prevent any FURTHER acts of genocide and to preserve any evidence, amongst other things"
That’s wrong again Adam. Words matter mate. Do you even Lawyer? Your statement implies that the ICJ concluded the IDF had committed genocide.
Here's what the court said - The ICJ "ordered Israel to refrain from any acts that could fall under the Genocide Convention and to ensure its troops commit no genocidal acts in Gaza"
As you then go to point out. "The final determination has not been settled and may take years".
So we are crystal now yeah?. No genocide.
I'm not going to write up an essay with a list of defences as I'm not a lawyer. Instead, I'll refer you to the following:
Israel opening remarks at the ICJ followed by their representative from the Justice Ministry initial response.
Israel's opening remarks from Tal Becker, an actual expert in international law, as opposed to the folks on this platofrm who used to be covid experts and now pose as legal experts. pic.twitter.com/ptKjmli2Es
— Aviva Klompas (@AvivaKlompas) January 12, 2024
Thank you South Africa!
— Eli Kowaz - איליי קואז (@elikowaz) January 12, 2024
For giving Israel’s best legal scholars an opportunity to destroy their ridiculous claims in front of the world.
Listen to Dr. Galit Rajuan at the ICJ pic.twitter.com/da1NnIR9z8
And the 2 x dissenting judges opinions following the ruling:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/justice-barak-icj-ruling-based-on-scant-ev...
Now you have been schooled by the best - here are some observations about the UN’s International Court of Justice based on my uneducated understanding.
South Africa's allegations are farcical. The ICJ ability to judge is compromised by its complete lack of moral authority.
The UN General Assembly is dominated by authoritarian regime dictators who all hate israel. The assembly appoints ICJ judges - thus by definition, those judges lack the moral authority to stand in judgment over any democracy, especially Israel who they hate more than anything.
The UN and its institutions have increasingly been hijacked by undemocratic states to advance their objectives that threaten freedom, peace, and prosperity in the world. The majority of countries making up the General Assembly and UN Human Rights Council (HRC) are repressive, authoritarian regimes. This is the UN that allows "Iran's envoy to chair a U.N. human rights council meeting in Geneva" last year FFS. Iran. Human rights. Classic.
Freedom House reports that the UN General Assembly has only 84 members of 193 total ranked as free societies. https://freedomhouse.org/article/new-members-un-human-rights-council-goe...
Only 47 members of the UN Human Rights Council ( to protect and uphold human rights) are rated as political and economically free. https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores
Here is a list of 134 countries that did NOT support South Africa's claim of genocide against Israel.
🚨 HERE is the list of the 134 countries that are NOT supporting South Africa's 🇿🇦 claims of genocide against Israel 🇮🇱:
— Luai Ahmed (@JustLuai) January 11, 2024
🇦🇩 Andorra
🇦🇴 Angola
🇦🇬 Antigua and Barbuda
🇦🇷 Argentina
🇦🇲 Armenia
🇦🇺 Australia
🇦🇹 Austria
🇧🇸 Bahamas
🇧🇧 Barbados
🇧🇾 Belarus
🇧🇿 Belize
🇧🇹 Bhutan…
Two of the ICJ judges were from a) China - exemplary leader in Human rights and b)Lebanon (hello Hezbollah who's rep is part of the former Government currently engaging in war against Israel)
Allegations of Genocide against Israel are nothing new. The UN's obsession with Israel as the worlds only jewish state and a ME free democracy is demonstrated by the sheer number of condemnations at the General Assembly of Israel than the rest of the world combined.
For example, China, Venezuela and Saudi Arabia have received ZERO resolutions condemning their human rights violations. The Human Rights Council however has adopted 103 resolutions condemning Israel.
https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/nir.smilga/viz/UNCondemnatoryReso...
Do you know what else is antisemitic Adam? "Applying double standards by requiring of it a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation". That's what you are doing. And that’s what South Africa does.
I've been here at the UN for two decades as South Africa systematically refuses to support any resolution for victims of the worst regimes like Iran, Syria, Russia & North Korea. In 2018 I flew to South Africa's parliament to present this report. Suddenly now they're activists.🧵 https://t.co/wsVfEgsZVG pic.twitter.com/vM9hNgHK9V
— Hillel Neuer (@HillelNeuer) January 12, 2024
Oh did I hurt your feelings again. Oh you have jewish friends? That’s great Adam. Indo Dreaming has an indonesian wife and kids but that doesn’t stop you from calling him a racist day in day out.
Wanna know more about South Africa and it's relationships with Hamas, Qatar and co - I posted this a while ago:
https://www.memri.org/reports/south-africas-diplomatic-campaign-against-...
So the genocidal case against Israel in the ICJ is a joke. A bunch of authoritarian, antisemitic thug states using a UN platform to destroy and undermine a ME liberal democracy and Israels right to self defence.
Lastly. You are a bully Adam. Your posts are full of intimidating threats, big noting to all your fighting prowess and your tendency to go cray cray every now and then.
It's not funny. It's not cool. It's not acceptable. Grow up.
If you can't engage in a conversation without abusing and threatening others with confected outrage take a break. Its the fckn internet mate. None of this matters.
Bonza, you need to take a look in the mirror accusing people of being antisemitic is equally a cheap shot. Very cheap and seemingly used to shut down reasonable debate by reasonable people on what (Gaza) is a human disaster caused by extremism on both sides. I don’t see racism here at all but a genuine concern for desperate innocent people. Fuck me how on earth do reasonable moderate people express their horror about the war without being called antisemitic? Criticising the war, Israel, its government, its people or the Jewish community as a whole is not antisemitic if the criticism is justified, context is all and personally I’m getting fed up with its use. By the way I’m also tiring of explaining the difference between good old fashioned Judaism and Zionism in my circle.
" ... how on earth do reasonable moderate people express their horror about the war without being called antisemitic?"
simple. by not calling it genocide.
It's not a cheap shot - it's how it's defined.
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
bonza wrote:" ... how on earth do reasonable moderate people express their horror about the war without being called antisemitic?"
simple. by not calling it genocide.
It's not a cheap shot - it's how it's defined.
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
If it’s not genocide in its outcome for civilian population of Gaza what in the fuck is it?
Using deadly force against civilians trapped and sheltering in tents is what precisely in your mind?
southernraw wrote:Indo claiming his 4 months of youtube and podcasts allows him a greater understanding of law as opposed to Adam12 who's done the hard yards of study, is possibly the most insane, ridiculous, and funny thing i've ever seen on these pages.
Zero comprehension at all of the insane dedication and mindset required to successfully complete a law degree. Haha fark me, seen it all now.
Sorry dude read my post again, i didn't claim that at all, Adam the hamas lover has a far greater knowledge and understanding of law than me.
But am i going to take his view on things that i know are bias as all fuck or am i going to digest a whole heap of views by much much much more qualified people???? (and do so from both pro Israel, Pro Palestine and as neutral as can find)
Im going with the views of much much more qualified people that as i also stated, seem to also vary greatly, and instead of taking one of the views that i want to believe, im actually going to try to take the middle ground and take a bit of each of the views on board.
BTW. I thought you weren't going to comment here?
You had your big dummy spit moment as you do, and went home with your bat and ball, but since then you have posted here almost as much as before?
Whats up with that dude?
I think you just wanted the attention, and everyone to say, no SR don't go.
Mean while, the Israeli dossier on the UNRWA seems to have a bit of a stink around it. Penny Wong thinks so.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/08/we-dont-have-all-the-facts...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-08/israel-senator-wong-request-evide...
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/podcast-episode/israel-has-questions-to-answ...
No big deal really, unless you’re a hungry thirsty Palestinian dodging lead in various shapes and sizes.
soggydog wrote:Mean while, the Israeli dossier on the UNRWA seems to have a bit of a stink around it. Penny Wong thinks so.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/08/we-dont-have-all-the-facts...https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-08/israel-senator-wong-request-evide...
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/podcast-episode/israel-has-questions-to-answ...
No big deal really, unless you’re a hungry thirsty Palestinian dodging lead in various shapes and sizes.
Those article's are over a week old, there's been even more evidence come up since then.
Not only is there the half a dozen UNRWA employees who were involved in 7th Oct, and large number of other's on the telegram channel celebrating 7th Oct
There is also now the evidence of Hamas main computer system sitting directly under the UNRWA main headquarters and even being hooked up too UNRWA energy supply quite literally cables running from inside into the tunnels.
Id expect we are going to see a lot more evidence come to light, this organization is corrupt as all fuck and should have been defunded years ago.
"If it’s not genocide in its outcome for civilian population of Gaza what in the fuck is it?"
not genocide
by any stetch...
"Using deadly force against civilians trapped and sheltering in tents is what precisely in your mind?"
I
sypkan wrote:"If it’s not genocide in its outcome for civilian population of Gaza what in the fuck is it?"
not genocide
by any stetch...
"Using deadly force against civilians trapped and sheltering in tents is what precisely in your mind?"
I
didn't post that - decided I couldn't be fucked...
but I may as well finish it now
"Using deadly force against civilians trapped and sheltering in tents is what precisely in your mind?"
I assume you have some proof of this...
and not just being hysterical and hyperbolic?
again...
because I have heard nothing of the sort
yeh camps have been bombed - with warning...
but indiscriminate bombing of people 'trapped' in tents...
sounds... well... hysterical and hyperbolic...
@Bonza,
Thank you for replying. Still a few cheap shots but I will overlook them and get to the substance of what you said.
I pointed out to you myself that the final determination by the World Court will take time, years perhaps. The Myanmar case is still ongoing. Doesn't mean "no genocide".
I also pointed out that if the World Court did not believe that the South Africans case did not have merit it would have dismissed it. It didn't. It made a prima facie finding that genocide was plausable.
You admit you are not a lawyer so let me explain again that the prima facie finding, standing and "plausable" is as much as the Court could hold in those proceedings, the final decision will be the definitive one, but the 15 to 2 decision gives a very strong indication as to which direction the Justices will take. Only time will tell definitively.
The fact that the final decision has not yet been made does not mean, as you put it "no genocide", it means that the World Court final determination is pending, that is all. What they did do is issue an order to prevent genocide, and other protection orders, which again is a strong indication that the majority of them believe the Palestinians are currently at risk of it or are experiencing genocide under the terms of the Convention. I have read the 29 page Court order carefully and paragraph 74 states that “there is a real and imminent risk that irreparable prejudice” will be caused to the rights of Palestinians in Gaza under the genocide convention.
The Court rejected the Israeli defences that it's actions were an exercise of the right of self defence on the basis of a 2003 ICJ precedent that the defence is not available to an occupying force and prima facie rejected Israel's assertions that it's disengagement with Gaza in 2006 meant it wasn't an occupying force.
This issue is disputed by legal scholars and could still be regarded as "live" as far as the submissions to the Court in the final decision go, but again the majority have given a strong indication in this determination as to how they will find. There is a mountain of evidence that indicates the Laws of Armed Conflict have been exceeded and that Israel's actions far exceed the legal definition of self defence under the rules of war. The vast number of civilian casualties compared to the number of enemy combatant casualties refute the military necessity and proportionality arguments put forward even today in relation to invading Rafah, and since Oct 7. It is an argument Israel I confidently predict will lose when it appears again before the World Court, but it is an "argument".
The next and also "live" issue the Court found in favour of the applicant was that of genocidal intent, a key and difficult to prove element necessary under case law for a finding of genocide, not the Convention definition, which Israel cleary and repeatedly qualifies under, to the point that their KC's didn't bother even trying to dispute in their submission. Evidence of statements made by Netanyahu "remember the Amalek", and others was presented which Israel dismissed as "random assertions". The Court again found the "plausability" element in favor of there being genocidal intent, again a prima facie finding indicating how it will make it's final decision.
This element I believe is probably Israels best argument, one it will base it's defence around, but I still think, as the majority of Justices did, that the requirement has enough evidence, provided by the warmongering statements, directives and orders of Israeli politicians, military leaders and others themselves, that the final judgement will find the requisite intent.
Israel's next argument the Court didn't accept, prima facie, was that it's actions in Gaza did not meet genocidal actions based on the "human shield" defence and that Israel tries to minimize civilians harm and deaths, that any indiscriminate killings were "mistakes" and that it had a robust legal system to punish transgressions. This is a flawed argument with clear evidence to counter it. It did not fly in the current proceedings and would be easily dismissed in the final one. Ample evidence.
The final defence, one which has some merit which the Court nevertheless also rejected, was a jurisdictional one, whereby the applicant is supposed to notify Israel and attempt to resolve the dispute before applying to the Court which Israel argued did not happen. I thought this carried some weight myself, Israel was only given a matter of days and when they tried to initiate dialogue with the South Africans were told it was a "holiday" and then later that there was "no point".
This is a jurisdictional issue, it is not the substantive issue as to whether Israel is committing genocide, but it will probably open the case for Israel at the final trail and could possibly derail the whole thing if found in Israel's favour. Again, the majority of the Justices have given a strong indication as to what they think of it by claiming jurisdiction and granting standing for South Africa. I seriously doubt that they would find otherwise at that trial and not this.
Now in relation to the point you were making about the World Court being "biased" or "anti Israel", they are frankly bullshit and irrelevant, I have heard all of them and they remind me a bit of Trump crying "rigged".
Israel is a signatory to, indeed was a driving force in the creation of both the Genocide Convention and the World Court. It is bound by it. The World Court Justices are amongst the most eminent International legal brains that exist, the large number of them makes it pretty much impossible for any institutional bias or individual bias to have an impact on it's majority findings. Israel signed it, they can't try to avoid that now because they are now the one's subject to it's rulings and orders.
You tell me I need to grow up, well my response to your claims of flawed reasoning, anti Israel World Court bias and the make up of the membership of the World Court making it is that you need to grow up yourself and quit the "victimhood"/ "antisemitic" bullshit that gets used as an excuse for things that you don't like hearing,
"A bunch of authoritarian, antisemitic thug states using a UN platform to destroy and undermine a ME liberal democracy and Israels right to self defence."
That's a childish, child like, untrue assertion and typical of the pro Israel hysteria bandied around here and elsewhere. The World Court is none of those things, it was developed with large input and imputus from Israeli and Jewish scholars and authorities following the Holocaust under "never again" sentiment. Israel has never made those type of accusations until now, where under Netanyahu's response to Oct 7 it stands accused of the crime of genocide itself. A furphy and a cop out, like I said similar to the childishness of Trump and his "rigged" cry when things go against him. No merit.
You need to defend the allegations on their merit and on the facts and the law, not childish cries of "bias" or "antisemitism" or "rigged". Otherwise you cannot be taken seriously.
Now as for my own personality and how I present myself on these threads I'll say this, firstly I don't give a fuck what you, Indo or anyone, here or most in the real world think of me. I'm decades beyond caring about any of that. I know myself pretty well by now and am quite comfortable and happy in my own skin, however thick or thin others may see it. My self respect and the respect and love and friendship I have with people that actually matter to me is fine and all I need. Anyone else's opinion matters not to me. If I "bully" someone like Indo, who is a racist regardless of his family's skin color, an accusation I don't make lightly that is based on years of reading his thoughts, particularly on the Voice issue, then it is because I believe he deserves it, has provoked it and frankly other than me being nixed by Stu or you and him ignoring my posts, there is fuck all you can do about it other than slur me yourself which as I said, I couldn't give a fuck about, do your worst. If I read something that elicits that response then, if I can be bothered, I will react and respond to as I see fit. You should probably note that he has recently started referring to me as a "hamas lover", he has done it again in a post above, thinking that he is somehow triggering me, something I find amusing not annoying like I initially did. It is not correct but typical of his undeveloped and warped mentality and personality and why, in part, I like to give him both barrels when I can be bothered.
If you continue to call me an antisemite I may well start to do the same to you, we'll see.
Now I think I will leave it there, a long post that has taken too much of my day, that I believe will like most, prove fruitless, but I asked for a reply from you and believe politeness required it.
And again, in my qualified legal opinion, Israel has and continues to commit genocide in Gaza under International Law, as the overwhelming majority of Justices of the World Court, including the US Chief Justice have found in their interim decision.
We are all entitled to an opinion, but I give far more weight to my own based on the years I did studying and being examined on such matters, and those of the Justices of the ICJ, than yours or @Indos.
I've got other things to do now so will come back later to see if and what you respond to this post, but I'm happy to leave things there if you feel you don't have anything to say to me, up to you.
sypkan wrote:sypkan wrote:"If it’s not genocide in its outcome for civilian population of Gaza what in the fuck is it?"
not genocide
by any stetch...
"Using deadly force against civilians trapped and sheltering in tents is what precisely in your mind?"
I
didn't post that - decided I couldn't be fucked...
but I may as well finish it now
"Using deadly force against civilians trapped and sheltering in tents is what precisely in your mind?"
I assume you have some proof of this...
and not just being hysterical and hyperbolic?
again...
because I have heard nothing of the sort
yeh camps have been bombed - with warning...
but indiscriminate bombing of people 'trapped' in tents...
sounds... well... hysterical and hyperbolic...
So refugee camp’s being bombed with “warning “=good?
Rafah, being where civilians where told to evacuate to, as long as they’re warned of further attacks = good.
Well alrighty then.
not saying its good...
but it is a very polite manner in which to wage a 'genocide'
‘Hamas is not a terrorist group,’ says UN Relief Chief Martin Griffiths
errrrrr... ok...
indo-dreaming wrote:southernraw wrote:Indo claiming his 4 months of youtube and podcasts allows him a greater understanding of law as opposed to Adam12 who's done the hard yards of study, is possibly the most insane, ridiculous, and funny thing i've ever seen on these pages.
Zero comprehension at all of the insane dedication and mindset required to successfully complete a law degree. Haha fark me, seen it all now.Sorry dude read my post again, i didn't claim that at all, Adam the hamas lover has a far greater knowledge and understanding of law than me.
But am i going to take his view on things that i know are bias as all fuck or am i going to digest a whole heap of views by much much much more qualified people???? (and do so from both pro Israel, Pro Palestine and as neutral as can find)
Im going with the views of much much more qualified people that as i also stated, seem to also vary greatly, and instead of taking one of the views that i want to believe, im actually going to try to take the middle ground and take a bit of each of the views on board.
BTW. I thought you weren't going to comment here?
You had your big dummy spit moment as you do, and went home with your bat and ball, but since then you have posted here almost as much as before?
Whats up with that dude?
I think you just wanted the attention, and everyone to say, no SR don't go.
Theres a difference between engaging and just coming here to ridicule you.
Which dummy pits that by the way.i thought i exited the conversation with grace and goodwill.
Sounds like more bullshit coming from you.
An endless supply eh.
Anyway i agree w Ads and crew.
For pure laugh,you should b on here.
Keep up your amazing work sargeant
sypkan wrote:not saying its good...
but it is a very polite manner in which to wage a 'genocide'
So when killing non combatants indiscriminately or as we’re seeing not so indiscriminately, good manners is the defining quality when judging severity?
Cool, cool, cool…..
indo-dreaming wrote:soggydog wrote:Mean while, the Israeli dossier on the UNRWA seems to have a bit of a stink around it. Penny Wong thinks so.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/08/we-dont-have-all-the-facts...https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-08/israel-senator-wong-request-evide...
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/podcast-episode/israel-has-questions-to-answ...
No big deal really, unless you’re a hungry thirsty Palestinian dodging lead in various shapes and sizes.
Those article's are over a week old, there's been even more evidence come up since then.
Not only is there the half a dozen UNRWA employees who were involved in 7th Oct, and large number of other's on the telegram channel celebrating 7th Oct
There is also now the evidence of Hamas main computer system sitting directly under the UNRWA main headquarters and even being hooked up too UNRWA energy supply quite literally cables running from inside into the tunnels.
Id expect we are going to see a lot more evidence come to light, this organization is corrupt as all fuck and should have been defunded years ago.
Please attach evidence to support your position, because current information contradicts the IDF position.
How are they corrupt? I know you’re aghast at the wealth of Hamas leaders. But what does that mean. How did they accumulate their wealth. What are they doing with that wealth. There’s millionaires and billionaires in The Israeli government and society supporting the Zionist project. Should they be treated with the same scrutiny given the amount of aid Isreal receives. Or is it different, like subterranean concrete structures.
indo-dreaming wrote:soggydog wrote:Mean while, the Israeli dossier on the UNRWA seems to have a bit of a stink around it. Penny Wong thinks so.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/08/we-dont-have-all-the-facts...https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-08/israel-senator-wong-request-evide...
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/podcast-episode/israel-has-questions-to-answ...
No big deal really, unless you’re a hungry thirsty Palestinian dodging lead in various shapes and sizes.
Those article's are over a week old, there's been even more evidence come up since then.
Not only is there the half a dozen UNRWA employees who were involved in 7th Oct, and large number of other's on the telegram channel celebrating 7th Oct
There is also now the evidence of Hamas main computer system sitting directly under the UNRWA main headquarters and even being hooked up too UNRWA energy supply quite literally cables running from inside into the tunnels.
Id expect we are going to see a lot more evidence come to light, this organization is corrupt as all fuck and should have been defunded years ago.
Please attach evidence to support your position, because current information contradicts the IDF position.
Bonzas post at 10.37 was excellent.
Only an idiot or a blatant trouble maker could argue the points made…
But there they are….again…..Mr multiplex and his many personalities.
bonza wrote:" ... how on earth do reasonable moderate people express their horror about the war without being called antisemitic?"
simple. by not calling it genocide.
It's not a cheap shot - it's how it's defined.
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
Ok then, in the interests of fairness do Hamas then become freedom fighters or are they still Terrorists given they’re fighting an oppressive occupying force? Given that large scale indiscriminate killing of a civilian population is not genocide?
Asking for a friend.
bonza wrote:" ... how on earth do reasonable moderate people express their horror about the war without being called antisemitic?"
simple. by not calling it genocide.
It's not a cheap shot - it's how it's defined.
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
Ok the in the interests of fairness do Hamas then become freedom fighters or are they still Terrorists given they’re fighting an oppressive occupying force? Given that large scale indiscriminate killing of a civilian population is not genocide?
Asking for a friend.
Thanks Adam.
Very thorough and impressive but when you break it all down to plain English - it comes down to the ruling that the court cannot make a final determination right now on whether Israel is guilty of genocide. So thus any accusation of genocide is wrong.
Your interpretation is simply an opinion - and while I see it has merit - I think your interpretation is flawed despite your obvious elevated intelligence compared to me. But I'm not here to convince you adam.
So until or if that decision is made, in favour of South Africa's accusation - I'll continue to call out where appropriate situations when the genocide accusation is thrown around. Especially when it's done to demonise Israel and the Jewish people. Which in most cases is exactly the intent or result. If you don't understand that link then it is you who doesn't know your history.
You can respond how you like as is your right.
My allegations about the bias of the UN GA and ICJ are based on evidence which I provided and are far from childish or resemble trumpism. Whatever that means. I provided a solid reasoning to back my allegations. It doesn’t prove I am right on this - but a reasonable person can see the argument has merit. You disagree fine. That's your right. I think you are wrong.
Ok good chat. Handbags at 10 paces. Go well Adam. Remember it's just the internet mate
soggydog wrote:indo-dreaming wrote:soggydog wrote:Mean while, the Israeli dossier on the UNRWA seems to have a bit of a stink around it. Penny Wong thinks so.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/08/we-dont-have-all-the-facts...https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-02-08/israel-senator-wong-request-evide...
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/podcast-episode/israel-has-questions-to-answ...
No big deal really, unless you’re a hungry thirsty Palestinian dodging lead in various shapes and sizes.
Those article's are over a week old, there's been even more evidence come up since then.
Not only is there the half a dozen UNRWA employees who were involved in 7th Oct, and large number of other's on the telegram channel celebrating 7th Oct
There is also now the evidence of Hamas main computer system sitting directly under the UNRWA main headquarters and even being hooked up too UNRWA energy supply quite literally cables running from inside into the tunnels.
Id expect we are going to see a lot more evidence come to light, this organization is corrupt as all fuck and should have been defunded years ago.
Please attach evidence to support your position, because current information contradicts the IDF position.
How are they corrupt? I know you’re aghast at the wealth of Hamas leaders. But what does that mean. How did they accumulate their wealth. What are they doing with that wealth. There’s millionaires and billionaires in The Israeli government and society supporting the Zionist project. Should they be treated with the same scrutiny given the amount of aid Isreal receives. Or is it different, like subterranean concrete structures.
UNRWA have basically admitted it themselves firing the staff, still alive involved in 7th October.
And the physical evidence of the computers linked to UNRWA main head quarters is there for the world to see, journalist have already been invited in to see and report themselves, its all there on video
Its not a new thing though, the group has a long dodgy past USA cut off funding years ago during Trump because of corruption etc
You only need to google UNRWA corruption to find a shit load of information and articles on the issue.
Otherwise UN Watch is a good place to start.
https://unwatch.org/
soggydog wrote:bonza wrote:" ... how on earth do reasonable moderate people express their horror about the war without being called antisemitic?"
simple. by not calling it genocide.
It's not a cheap shot - it's how it's defined.
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitismOk the in the interests of fairness do Hamas then become freedom fighters or are they still Terrorists given they’re fighting an oppressive occupying force? Given that large scale indiscriminate killing of a civilian population is not genocide?
Asking for a friend.
Thanks for asking. Hamas are jihadist terrorists acting in line with their charter with true genocidal intent against the jewish people. say hi to your friend for me
;)
https://m.
sypkan wrote:sypkan wrote:"If it’s not genocide in its outcome for civilian population of Gaza what in the fuck is it?"
not genocide
by any stetch...
"Using deadly force against civilians trapped and sheltering in tents is what precisely in your mind?"
I
didn't post that - decided I couldn't be fucked...
but I may as well finish it now
"Using deadly force against civilians trapped and sheltering in tents is what precisely in your mind?"
I assume you have some proof of this...
and not just being hysterical and hyperbolic?
again...
because I have heard nothing of the sort
yeh camps have been bombed - with warning...
but indiscriminate bombing of people 'trapped' in tents...
sounds... well... hysterical and hyperbolic...
I havent seen evidence of this either.
The situation in Rafia i believe is different now with people in actual tents.
But refugee camp's in general in Gaza like in the north like say Jabalia refugee camp (the biggest one in Gaza) are not actually what most picture in their heads as refugee camp's with tents.
For example this is shati beach refugee camp in Jabalia, some have even taller building's.
They are really just suburb's where the people who lived there were originally refugees.
And yes Hamas builds tunnels all through these areas and launches and store rockets in these areas, so yes those targets get hit.
Bonza
By who’s definition. And how are they qualified to make that definition.
;);)
https://m.
soggy we've been here before mate.
refer back to the definition of genocide.
re-read the Hamas charter and the realms of evidence of hamas fighter and leaders actions and statements to support that and make your own assumption.
Here's an australian friend that can explain it further for you
https://www.memri.org/tv/friday-sermon-ausralia-imam-abdul-salam-zoud-pr...
Barely human(e) sikfuks such as costco, info, bonza and sickpan only see the world in black and white... no nuance at all... if you criticise Netanyahoo's genocide then you love Hamas. Such simplified thinking is very evident of stunted growth, sociopathic/psychopathic mental architecture and/or a fear of reality.
Go south said Netanyahoo's IDF... You'll be safe there. Yeah right.
Jelly Flater wrote:;);)
All the sikfuks need to watch!
'$85 per person'
kinda crazy when you put it like that...
WATCH THE AD THATS GOING VIRAL IN AMERICA ON TIKTOK
— Khalissee (@Kahlissee) February 15, 2024
“Honey we can’t afford these eggs. Our government needs that money to kill Palestinians in Gaza.” 🔥🔥🔥 pic.twitter.com/OeNl6XJKgf
bonza wrote:soggydog wrote:bonza wrote:" ... how on earth do reasonable moderate people express their horror about the war without being called antisemitic?"
simple. by not calling it genocide.
It's not a cheap shot - it's how it's defined.
https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitismOk the in the interests of fairness do Hamas then become freedom fighters or are they still Terrorists given they’re fighting an oppressive occupying force? Given that large scale indiscriminate killing of a civilian population is not genocide?
Asking for a friend.
Thanks for asking. Hamas are jihadist terrorists acting in line with their charter with true genocidal intent against the jewish people. say hi to your friend for me
That sounds like a bit of a double standard to me Bonza given that the IDF were born of terrorist cells.
it ain't quite genocide winnie
ya gotta give up on that black and white thinking
it's a sign of 'psychopathy'...
apparently...
a bit like hamas...
and their, all jews must die stuff...
sign yourself up champ
ya fucken psychopathic wanker...
Indo. I was at work so didn't get to round out my comment to you.
There's no way I'll ever engage in a thread you're a part of. Thats insanity. But laugh at you. Yes i can!! Becsuse you're hilarious.
To be honest, what you write, how you think, the way you structure your posts, is so insanely stupid, that i often think maybe you're just a figment of the swellnet crews imagination, for them to av a larf, and to get a bit of engagement in the threads, due to your sheer stupidity.
If, and only if thats true, then Indo, youre a genius. Maybe one day we'll all find out you're a swellnet imaginary poster.
Til then, I'll happily keep laughing and poking fun at your posts from a safe distance away from the dungeon.
Btw @Adam12, your posts have been brilliant. Keep it up. Remember if those you dont respect dont like you, you must be doing something right. You're a treasure!
sypkan wrote:it ain't quite genocide winnie
ya gotta give up on that black and white thinking
it's a sign of 'psychopathy'...
apparently...
a bit like hamas...
and their, all jews must die stuff...
sign yourself up champ
ya fucken psychopathic wanker...
Sikfuk sickpan. Go get some empathy you deadsoul.
The Palestinian people are not all Hamas you dikhead
And btw sikpan u mental dwarf, if South Africa call it genocide it's probably genocide. Jeez yr a fukn dope, honestly.
harrycoopr wrote:And btw sikpan u mental dwarf, if South Africa call it genocide it's probably genocide. Jeez yr a fukn dope, honestly.
south africa....
bahahahahahahaahahaha
ever heard of brics?
anongst other things...
ya fucken mental dwarf
wanker
southernraw wrote:Indo. I was at work so didn't get to round out my comment to you.
Your posts have been brilliant. Keep it up. Remember if those you dont respect dont like you, you must be doing something right. You're a treasure!
Thank's bro, i 100% agree, great to see you come around.
sypkan wrote:harrycoopr wrote:And btw sikpan u mental dwarf, if South Africa call it genocide it's probably genocide. Jeez yr a fukn dope, honestly.
south africa....
bahahahahahahaahahaha
ever heard of brics?
anongst other things...
ya fucken mental dwarf
wanker
Ha ha "South Africa" i really couldn't believe he wrote this comment, i use to think Harry was one of Facto's profiles, but him actually commenting in this thread has 100% confirmed he is not, Facto is the biggest cockhead, but he is still way smarter than this guy.
BTW. It is actually quite interesting to read about how over the last 15 years the relationship between the two countries has gone from quite good, to basically enemies.
Maybe South Africa heading towards being a failed state is just some kind of karma in advance.
indo-dreaming wrote:southernraw wrote:Indo. I was at work so didn't get to round out my comment to you.
Your posts have been brilliant. Keep it up. Remember if those you dont respect dont like you, you must be doing something right. You're a treasure!
Thank's bro, i 100% agree, great to see you come around.
Wow! I should give you a little credit. You do know how to edit, cut and paste a post for a bit of a laugh.
A stupid person couldn't do that so well done.
Still reckon it's the swellnet boys with too much time on their hands.
Well played fellas.
indo-dreaming wrote:sypkan wrote:harrycoopr wrote:And btw sikpan u mental dwarf, if South Africa call it genocide it's probably genocide. Jeez yr a fukn dope, honestly.
south africa....
bahahahahahahaahahaha
ever heard of brics?
anongst other things...
ya fucken mental dwarf
wanker
Ha ha "South Africa" i really couldn't believe he wrote this comment, i think im the biggest cockhead, but still this guy.
.
Indo you're a genius! Cutting and pasting and editing peoples posts is sooo much fun!!
sypkan wrote:harrycoopr wrote:And btw sikpan u mental dwarf, if South Africa call it genocide it's probably genocide. Jeez yr a fukn dope, honestly.
south africa....
bahahahahahahaahahaha
ever heard of brics?
anongst other things...
ya fucken mental dwarf
wanker
Put yr tinfoil hat back on dikpan...
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