Do you like or hate Donald Trump, and why?

Anyone lacking a serious background in philosophy would be unable to make head nor tail of most of that podcast. So it's not about "big words" it is about who you want to communicate with. As for post-modern, that was exactly how I would have describe it. No clear definition of the terms a lot of name dropping and discursive rambling around a point that was never actually clarified but may have been nothing more than identifying a need to be more inclusive of traditionally "priveleged" groups. A point that was reached by many commentators years ago. I fell asleep before the end so maybe they eventually came up with something worth listening too, but I doubt it. As for regressive. Get real. My ideas usually align with progressive liberal policy. It is those promoting the idea that kids should be kept ignorant who are regressive. Back to the 50s with Tony, Miranda and Slomo. sypkan began with a dog whistle that transgender issues were "way out of control" but never got around to explaining why. This just encourages ignorance and prejudice.

Good onya optimist! You sound like a gem of a person....for a Christian....joking...

A gem that would be written off by many on here purely because of his beliefs. Quite scary really, that such a well intentioned productive person would be dismissed so abruptly.

Can't agree on the blank slate thingy though optimist.

Speaking of dismissive, interesting that the two academic wannabees on here (two nobody academic wannebees for that metter) wouldn't even give that podcast and it's ideas a decent hearing.

I would imagine waleed and fukuyama were 'all in' regarding identity politics not that long ago. And now, they're willing to debate the shortcomings and unintended manifestations of identity politics. You might call that an evolution...of sorts...

Also interesting that blindboy is always rattling on about science and 'objectivity' yet subscibes fully to the post modernist social engineering experiment. That's a contradiction of the highest order right there!

Seriously, even if your little 'progressive' social engineering experiment had gone to plan, did you really think you would've converted the whole population to your dogmatic views by now?

Did you think that everyone in the population would be 'onboard' by this point in history? ie. 3-4 decades to convert the whole western world to your particular brand of self righteous atheism?

If that's the case, maybe your plan shouldn't have included ecouraging the unbridled immigration of some the most fundamentalist religious people on the planet. Just saying...

Ok they're out of control because kids are being encouraged to question their genders before they can even understand what it is.

Kids are taking hormone therapies before they've even passed puberty.

Gender realignment surgery is being contemplated before they even know if they're a girlish boy. Or a just a boy with homosexual tendencies.

I'm not saying don't educate them about these issues. Just to present a more balanced perspective, accounting for all possibilities.

But we can't do that, because the male voice is nowhere in these discussions.

We've gone from having no female voices in the big issues of the world to totally discounting the male perspective.

The crux of post modernism is all perspectives are valid. But it's gone so far, the male perspective is dismissed at every crossroad. In fact even female perspectives are dismissed if they don't fall in line with the agenda.

Balance grasshopper!

And plenty of feminists agree.

It's interesting to see what you did and didn't refute from my last post BB, very telling.

"Anyone lacking a serious background in philosophy would be unable to make head nor tail of most of that podcast."

Bullshit, plain and simple.

I'm not the brightest spark but apart from a few pauses for thought, it was pretty straightforward for someone with a sound grasp of English

Regressive Left - "Regressive left" describes a section of left-wing politics who are accused of holding paradoxical, reactionary views by their tolerance of illiberal principles and ideologies, particularly identity politics (emphasis on group identities like race and gender, rather than on the individual), and opposition to free speech for the sake of multiculturalism and cultural relativism.'

Also regressive in that they will pick and chose established science as it suits and also change or reject definitions and the meaning of words as it suits.

I think the shoe fits BB.

"My ideas usually align with progressive liberal policy"

I think you need to look up the definition of liberal BB, and don't go all regressive on me and start calling me a pedant or whatever.

The left aren't wrong about everything but the regressive left may well be.

Regressive comes into play because the whole narrative for years has been about tolerance. Yet you guys are totally intolerant, that's TOTALLY INTOLERANT, of anything that doesn't algn with your world view.

Well fuck you blindboy. Some of us have moved well beyond 'tolerance' to total acceptance.

Total acceptance of difference. Total acceptance of migrants. Total acceptance of homosexuals. And total acceptance of transgender folk (until they get a bit too friendly. That kinda creeps me out)

And then you've got the gall to judge and label everyone else about everything.

So fuck you too!

Sorry to disappoint you Andy. Classify me anyway you like. The kind of discussion you refer to seems to me like just another attempt by the right to divide the left and have them focus on their own internal politics and secondary issues like identity politics while they get on with their looting and pillaging. What interests me are the major issues such as climate change and gender equity. If I quote science I am happy to discuss the alternative evidence. Not so happy to have it attacked from other angles. You can ramble on all you like about identity politics and how gender should or should not be part of that. I would rather focus on the practicalities of reducing suicide, mental health problems, discrimination and bullying. Step one being to make sure people are educated about the basic biology of the issue.

Or what anym said...

So sypkan "transgender way out of control" sounds a long way from acceptance to me ...... but I take your word for it.

Accepted contemporary transgender narrative blindboy.

There's much more going on than your one dimensional view on everything.

happyasS I saw what you did there made me smile

Been reading the discussion and am struggling to see the point other than the repeated use of "Identity Politics" and take cheap shots at BB.

You lot do realise politics are unavoidably connected to identity for everyone.

Another thing is there are very few new truths under the sun.

Re transgender, true story, walked into a class room as a 6 year old (early 60's) one of the boys was different we knew he knew every one knew. It was a poor area 1/2 the kids turned up in bare feet (I always took my shoes off to fit in). The kid was never bullied, bashed what ever turned up at the school reunion a a smoking hot woman.

Back to Trump he is still a criminal.

Yipes!!! Yikes!!!!?? HOLY SHIIITE!!!! WHERE DID THAT COME FROM!!!!!!

First things first but. and... well, you know... as far as donny goes... its well... well... them with that unbridled lust for power... An impartial view might help. An outsiders view so to speak. You know, one of the first things that struck me, that stood out, so to speak, was, you know, I just thought... well... there's a good bloke... I thought... that's old school mateship, old school dependability.... I thought. As ya would. The way young PeteyB supported his mate, no matter what... his mate stup... Yep... I thought. Yeh... but nah... yipes!!!! Talk about chucked under the farkin' bus aaye!!!!!! Upside down... peteyb got crucified!!! Holy shite!!!! Some people just shouldn't get a uniform... thank God its only donny... coz stingerless... yipes!!! Its my party and ya can take ya old school and ###** %%### %%%% ya ####ing *****#### ###%% ###**%%!!! ??

Oppy. Lets face it, opty, we aint dumb. I aint a catho, so's I don't have to bow to frank. Not at all. No matter what outfit he's in. So what, I'll accept that, ok, he'll say 'fuck you, get ya own cuppa blood ya goin' down cunt... eat ya own wafers... fry ya loser!!!!' Fair enough frank. But you know frank, I know ya do, we all fucking do. conny was no ones fool. God loved conny, still does, nearly as much as stingerless. Prayers or no prayers, petey got the axe first but. Conny's boyz claimed 'im. lionel lost his scone. Its a mess, to say the least. connie's boy damo... who fuckin' knows. But we know petey got chucked under the bus... again.

See opty, you know deep down.

'Oye where ya off too!!??!'

'Off ta the colosseum maaayyte... got best seats in the house... front row cross, what a view... SSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEIIIIIIIIIIITTTTTEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

Yep, that's about the gist of it opty. Con job. connie weren't no fool.

Coupla simple instructions. Luv ya neighbour. I don't think.. that he meant lurv his kids like that. All the christians know it deep down. They dun fuck all about it too. Too busy talking shiiite and taking up collections.

Sykko feels for franks lot. connie told him they would. Was countin' on it. sykko, doin' time down the front row in the colosseum... 'School the cunts!!!! Give connie another break ya faaarkin' haters!!!'

Andy spilled his guts. Ya knew he would but. Again. Credits about ta roll, looks like they pulled it off... andy got cocky... had to shoot his mouth off... again, and bring up the fuckin' taxi. 'Who'd be a fucked up, stuck cunt, loser cab driver... ooops... just rationinizin' shite in a lucky country but aaaayyye!!!??!!!! Imagine cleanin' the fuckin' things!!!

'Not even them faaarkin immigrants (sorry mmmaaayyyte) should have to do the shite fucked up shit!!!!'

'OOOOOYYYYEEEE TTTTTAAAAXXXIII... GIVE US A WAVE YA STUCK CUNT!!!!'

'NNNARRR I FARKIN DID NOT SO SAY VAT!!!!!!!'

Andy fucked up... agin'...

But there's... well... no matter what angle ya look at it its brilliant. Every line a stand alone winner. Every line an open window. 'Truths under the sun.' Front to back, back to front, side to side. Looked like it was over, the final siren had gone.

Yipes!!! Yikes!!!!?? HOLY SHIIITE!!!! WHERE DID THAT COME FROM!!!!!!

'Sport was loosely based on Lord of the Flies.'

Flashes of absolute brilliance. Trubes.

Trubes put a seam on the laces, a lace on the seam. Torped a heat seeker through the guts. Its just fightin' over the minor placin's now.

Blighty. Fucken gold.

"Been reading the discussion and am struggling to see the point other than the repeated use of "Identity Politics" and take cheap shots at BB.

You lot do realise politics are unavoidably connected to identity for everyone."

You're right i focus, identity is unavoidably connected to politics for everyone. And it used to be a uniting force in the quest for common good. But now identity politics has inadvertently developed to such a stage that is actually becoming a divisive force., as it puts everyone into smaller and smaller boxes in the competition for resources. And now there is no more the concept of a common good.

Its development in universities, HR, and government now is so prolific there are departments on top departments, experts on top of experts, and a lackey for every possible petty cause. It is just unsustainable to continue down this path.

Its advocates and their offspring have also developed into snide little bitches; sniping from the shadows on every single petty cause. This has only exacebated with the internet, which is pushing people away rather than collecting support for what are often genuine causes.

As andym has pointed out, it has become a massive diversion to a class war that never went away. If one is critically /cynically minded, it isn't a stretch to say this could have been the intention all along.

It's nothing personal with blindboy. He just loves the shit a bit too much.

You're right, trump is a criminal. But he's a legimately elected president...for now...

Hmmm just can't find the document in which I am supposed to have signed up to the "post-modern social engineering experiment". In fact I am not even sure what it means since, as far as I can see, you would be struggling to find anyone in power who had even made it as far as modernism. Can you imagine slomo or Trump reading Joyce?

Mud slung! None sticking.

‘Its development in universities, HR, and government now is so prolific there are departments on top departments, experts on top of experts, and a lackey for every possible petty cause. It is just unsustainable to continue down this path.’

Is the coast clear... has anyone seen stingerless... hopefully he’s still around the corner sinking a few inta young petey... I might have time for a quick commy!!!!

sykkos after the siren hail mary above is just pure tripe, absolute shite. Couldn’t be more wrong. Straight off the side of the boot, didn’t even look like getting the distance and out on the full. Government departments everywhere are being cut to the bone, streamlined, downsized, shut down and handed over to the private hatchet job boyz. donnie’s lot, who love bleeding the last few drops out of andy’s beloved, lucky but stuck stuck cunts.

All while sykko’s on his feet down the front row screamin’ ‘enough with the fuckin’ virgins already, torch the bitches... bring out the school kids chuck em on a cross, and unleash the psycho bishops on em!!!’ Aaaahhh shuddup yar fuckin’ haters!!!!!’

" [identity politics] has become a massive diversion to a class war that never went away. If one is critically /cynically minded, it isn't a stretch to say this could have been the intention all along."

I doubt the whole thing has been manufactured but as I've said before, it's suited the Right just fine for a few decades now.

Some Centrist and Leftist issues are gaining traction now that the shit-show of neoliberalism has finally started to be exposed (but not for the likes of Sharkman unfortunately who is still confused by the economic Three Card Monte of the Right) but Centrist/Leftist influence would have so much more heft without the narcissistic new age navel-gazing and rainbow-farting of certain elements of the Left.

Another (large) nail in his coffin.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/12/ami-national-enquirer-immuni...

Care to explain "rainbow-farting" Andy?

It's when you eat four litres of Neapolitan ice cream along with a handful of laxatives.

Oh my gracious, seriously now, I jest.

It's down the same path as ol' Syppo was talking about, a magical post-modern land of unicorns and faeries where people are free to change the definitions of words and to reject science as it suits them.
A tremendous land where blatant hypocrisy reigns and one can be as bigoted as they want, as long as it's in a direction that's deigned to be correct.
A fabulous place where everyone is "liberal" yet the true meaning of the word is quietly kicked under the very expensive hemp rug.

"sykkos after the siren hail mary above is just pure tripe, absolute shite. Couldn’t be more wrong. Straight off the side of the boot, didn’t even look like getting the distance and out on the full. Government departments everywhere are being cut to the bone, streamlined, downsized, shut down and handed over to the private hatchet job boyz. donnie’s lot, who love bleeding the last few drops out of andy’s beloved, lucky but stuck stuck cunts."

I'm not talking about this precise moment in time, though it is still happening...just differently. I'm talking about the last 3 decades, where department after department, be it in government or private HR, has been created to cope with the indentity politics onslaught.

Yes you're right, services and departments have been stripped back of late, but practically never abolished. They're being stripped back and privatised instead. That's called neoliberalism my friend.

So while government cut backs can seem brutal, very rarely is the identity politics bandwagon offloading passengers. They're just riding the private bus. The levels of ridiculous that large corporations now go to to appease the demands of the identity politics overlords through HR bullshit is phenomenal.

A strange and very destructive symbiotic relationship had developed as the identity politics zealots got showered with funds and spent them privately through neoliberalism. Now the money's run out the chickens have well and truly come home to roost!

That radical right wing internet rag 'salon' summed it up best immediately after trump got elected. They called it 'Peak Neoliberalism'. When hilary clinton is offered to 'the left' as the perfect next President to fulfill the identity politics dream. The first female president following the first black president, it's an identity politics wet dream. When really she's just an extreme capitalist facilitating the continuation of the neoliberal globalisation agenda.

Spot on that term I reckon 'Peak Neoliberalism'. One could say that very moment was 'Peak Identity Politics' too.

When the whole ruse of a house of cards of falseness came tumbling down.

A long coming joyous day.....for some.

Actually, it looks like it was well before the election. See stunet, some of us of 'the left' were totally onto the joke identity politics had become well before trump and brietbart!

https://www.salon.com/2016/02/19/hillary_clintons_cynical_race_appeals_t...

Andym's rainbow fart even gets a mention

Well that's fine then Andy. I mistook it for another dog whistle to the homophobes. Sorry about that.

"Clinton is brazenly channeling the latest racial and gender justice discourse to block a racially diverse working-class assault on the oligarchy she has long defended"

Do you think she's consciously trying to fragment a possible unification/attack or do you think she's merely cynically appealing to diverse groups from the social left?

Both?

Hmm, we can see where your mind is at BB ;)
How was the mental imagery?

I'll have you know that many of my best friends are gay.

Disturbing Andy. Not expecting to sleep well tonight!
Clinton? Who cares, she's history!

From the Clinton piece - “I’ll kiss the ring of whoever my party nominates,” said one CBC staffer.

Gay rights have certainly come a long way.

Who cares??

Maybe because we can learn from it in the future BB!!

Sheesh!

Just got around to listening to AndyM's RN podcast thingy. That Franky Fukuyama is spruiking a book about the poison of identity politics makes one titter. The phenomenen that rose up with neoliberalism, which, of course, is the political system that he said would last till the end of history.

Irony, much?

Though he did make some valid observations about identity politics standing in for class politics, though from what I can gather, he, like many other people, don't ask why identity politics exists in the first place - because class war didn't help those people. At the height of the class movements we still had racism and homophobia.

Old Franky would make a terrible journalist.

What about here in Australia? Since neoliberalism really grabbed hold with Howard's ascension in '96, a truce was called on the class war. The working class were now aspirational, they opted out of unions and became upwardly mobile, they became their own bosses. Who was gonna man the pickets in this class war? Ha...yeah.

By 1998 it was as good as over.

Around that time is when identity politics supposedly assumed pole position in our lives and it's remained that way since. So then, how different...I mean, really, how different has our voting been because of it? All these "silos of knowledge" and we've still only got two major parties to vote for. 

Minor parties? Well, there's Shooters and Fishers, and there was Ricky Muir and his Motoring Party, how do they fit into the political fracturing caused by identity politics.

People giving waaaay too much air time to a marginal concept.

Kiss the ring? Now there is NO Chance of me sleeping tonight, down to you Andy!

"People giving waaaay too much air time to a marginal concept."

As intended, Stunet.

Conscious or not.

Ho fucking hum.

(Fark, this thread is depressing)

Reality often is depressing factobum, especially if you've been sheltered from it by facade of falseness for way too long. When that facade abruptly crumbles and falls, its shocking and depressing.

Identity politics isn't the big evil boogeyman, it's main problem is, that it was flogged like a dead horse for about 15 years too long.

It's facillitater, political correctness, is what allowed the chinese to buy too many farms and apartments. It turned simmering suppressed nationalsm into overt boiling over racism. It protecred some obvious badness in certain communities that should have been nipped in the bud a long time ago. It pretty much destroyed the public's faith in public institutions. It allowed the offshorng of manufacturung, call centres, and just about everthing else. And my biggest hate, it pretty much withered away many people's support for multiculturalism, by pushing an overly accommodating version of multiculturalism, which in turn allowed little ghettos to develop rather than encouraging/forcing the assimilation of the past. It also allowed the ongoing contained class war to fester and simmer, then build into a full blown battle.

And probably the worst thing is - if the narrative was allowed to continue - it was all the fault of straight white men, regardless of their wealth, position and power in society.

People chatting within silos is probably the least of our worries.

All these things have built resentment up over time and have now blown like a volcano. So yeh it's confronting and depressing for some. But it's been a long time coming...

Shouldn't have flogged that horse for so long!

Poor bloody horse

I agree Stu. The notion of those criticising identity politics has been that the various groups should all, miraculously, become part of the mainstream culture. This was never going to happen and the logical outcome of policies pushing in that direction was always going to be to maintain the existing disadvantage of certain groups and as a direct consequence of that, the identity of disadvantaged groups grew stronger.
In a sense the debate is between the homogenisers who want everyone to be the same and the diversifies who want to preserve difference.
Historically, of course, much of the disadvantage did flow from the behaviour of straight white men. Colonisation oppressed First Nations people across the world. The criminalisation of non-binary sexual activity oppressed LGBT individuals. The exploitation of non-white labour through slavery, indentured labour and other practices created wealth that flowed to yep, you guessed it,mstraight white men. This is not to say that no straight white men have been oppressed, or that the concerns of oppressed straight white men are less important than those of other groups. It just recognises a historical truth.

@Stu - a marginal concept?

I've heard it argued that identity politics should be called neoliberal identity politics.

Fundamentally, many of these "silos" fail to challenge the current political hegemony and the economic status quo and ask only for equal access to the class privilege that was previously only available to white, middle-aged, middle-class, males. In this neoliberal iteration of identity politics, the various ‘liberation groups’ now ‘compete’ with each other in the political sphere for resources, activist time and energy, media attention and of course the moral high ground.

As a result in the neoliberal age, identity politics has put the progressive part of the 99% into constant war with each other while the 1% have got on with ruling the world in their own interests and overseeing the single biggest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich since the land enclosures of the 17th & 18th Century.

So to answer your rhetorical question, our voting patterns have barely been different at all, the discussions have been relatively shallow and certainly have been restrained by the existing political, social and media hegemons.

Throw into the mix a preferential voting system in the Lower House that's design to entrench a two-party system and apart from no-brainers like same sex marriage, we're making very little progress in the overall scheme of things.

I don't agree that identity politics in conjunction with regressive left ideas are marginal concepts.

"many of these "silos" fail to challenge the current political hegemony and the economic status quo and ask only for equal access to the class privilege that was previously only available to white, middle-aged, middle-class, males. "

Outrageous behaviour, imagine these upstarts expecting to get a fair suck of the sav!

Band-aid solutions BB, still playing within a framework which is going to continue to oppress them and the rest of the 99%.

I saw this written about identity politics -

"It privileges culture, instead of politics. My first point is that when you fight for identity, you’re giving up politics in favor of culture. And that’s exactly where neoliberalism wants you, fighting for your culture (or what you imagine is your culture), rather than the arena of policies, where the real consequences occur. You may gain some recognition of your identity, but you may also have to pay the price of losing everything else that makes life worth living."

I don't entirely agree because I think you can fight for your identity as well as fighting for substantive legislative change but it's still a reasonable point.

It's necessary on one level but distracting and divisive with regards to the bigger picture.

The 'system' lurvs andees stuck, stuck (even immigrant go home) cunts!!! Its the backbone of the 'system', phil and liz's foundation!!!

Fibs galore kids, come on down!!!! Suppressed fibs rule!!! Onward christian soldiers, silent knights!!! Not to be confused with nights, they were rowdy as hell, filled with the suppressed screams of the lyin' brats!!!

Good 'ol uncle whitey, stop pickin' on I'm!!! 'Shuudddup and read ya history books!!!'

cooky, phil and liz's lot's boy found it!!! Fibs galore!!! We need more of andees stuck cunts, always have, ya gotta lurv ya stuck cunts!!! 'Taxi!!!! Get here pronto ya stuck cunt!!!! Oye... wots this... farkin' immigrants!!! Send 'im back!!!! Sorry mmmaaayyyte!!!!'

Andee spilled his guts, fucked up. You knew he would... again...

Let us give thanks... we didn't know, how wuz we sposed ta know... not even God did!!!

Anyway... ssssshhhhhh... otherwise its not fair!!!

History... 'twinnies are fark... matts rules!!!'

The dirty, vicious, thick headed, thick skinned, rapin' vermin deserved it... good 'ol uncle whitey saved the cunts!!!! 'Its ver trufe!!!'

A few fibs never hurt anyone!!! 'Its the trufe ayyye!!!'

'Oye!!!!! Now wot!!! Shhhuuuudddup ya farkin lyin' stuck cunt haters!!! TAXXXXIII!!!!!'

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/21/colonial-australias-founda...

Syykkos on it!!! 'Bullshit!!! Haters!!!??!'

NSW leading the way!!!

'Fuck orf... now wot!!!'

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-14/royal-commission-child-sex-abuse-...

'More bullshit!!! Lyin' cunts... farkin' haters!!!!'

'SHHHHHHUUUUDDDUUUPPPP... UVVAWISE ITS JUZ NOT FAIR!!!!'

'Come on down kids!!!! Get ya some good 'ol boy' education!!!??'

'SSSHHHHHH... not even God knew!!!'

'FFS, now wot!!!! Leave good 'ol uncle whitey alone!!!!'

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/14/johnson-johnson-found-have-c...

'More bullshit!!! Lyin' haters!!!!'

'Bring in the big guns!!!'

'We can't franky's catho boyz, and bretheren have hired em all!! The lawyers from hell!!!???!'

'Aye... SSSSSHHHHHHHUUUUSSSSHHHHH!!! God will hear!!!'

@Andy,

Well marginal in that few people engage in identity politics. Perhaps I'm wrong but this seems to be a phenomenon of academia and minorities, and even then a small percentage in each. In my circle of family, neighbours, and friends I can count a number of homosexuals and none of them would put their sexual rights before class at the ballot box. In fact my uncle and his partner are staunchly political, in the old sense. Anecdotal but still...

How did identity politics of minorities get cast over the majority? I sure as hell don't think that way, and again, no-one I'm on friendly terms with - conversations over the fence, carpark, or in the lineup etc - does either.

And where do class-based movements such as Occupy Wall Street and We Are The 99% sit in all this? More importantly, why did those movements fail...?

My guess: because neoliberalism makes all of us our own agents. And the byproduct of this individual accountability is a resistance to solidarity. We struggle to find commonality.

It appears the blame for this is geting cast in the wrong direction, when maybe Maggie Thatcher was right after all: There is no such thing as society (in a neoliberal world).

The more I read about identity politics the more I doubt its potency. It exists, sure, but its purview is far more limited than what people are making out.

I'd go so far to say to say as all this hand-wringing over identity politcis is the real distraction.

"neoliberalism makes all of us our own agents. And the byproduct of this individual accountability is a resistance to solidarity. We struggle to find commonality."

That's a commonly mentioned theme in podcasts and a lot of articles from all over the world.

"I'd go so far to say to say as all this hand-wringing over identity politcis is the real distraction."

Very interesting, maybe a product of the media "feeding the hungry beast"?

Personally, I'm more interested in the phenomenon of people (mainly 'Left' in my experience) being freaked out by neoliberalism, the state of the world and where it's heading, and starting to reject authority (understandable) but also rejecting a lot of established science and also looking to latch onto unsubstantiated belief systems.

Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater...

It makes me wonder if this desire to find belief systems is simply an inescapable part of the human psyche.

"It makes me wonder if this desire to find belief systems is simply an inescapable part of the human psyche."

Absolutely it is!

Which has been a fundamental oversight by the left in their socially progressive christian bashing atheism push.

Which I would argue, is a form of identity politics, slicing, dicing, dividing.

I'm pretty sure a hell of a lot of catholics vote left...or at least did, until the agenda ran off with the fairies.

Yes they're accommodating the rainbows and fairy bridgade, but where's the numbers?

"Which has been a fundamental oversight by the left in their socially progressive christian bashing atheism push."

And the left is wrong about everything.

A bit of a mix and match there Andym. You're "interested in this phenomenon of people (mainly 'Left ..) being freaked out by neoliberalism."

Not sure what piques your interest there AndyM. It's pretty straightforward, it just took people a long time to work it out, principally because so many were lying to them and they couldn't see through it. Government of the big corporates, by the big corporates, for the big corporates. It's the end of democracy, not the end of history of F Fukuyama, as Stu points out.

"Neoliberalism makes us all our own agents" is the greatest lie I have ever read. Who came up with that? Neoliberalism is all about suppression of the masses, not their freedom. Suppose I'll have to read back a batch of pages to work out what twisted logic led to that.

I recognise that you may or may not be arguing that, just quoting it, just had to say what a crock of shite it is.

So not at all surprising that it was people mainly of the left who worked it out. they are less likely to believe the growth is god, all corporations are benevolent dictators etc belief system.

As for rejecting established science, or even basic principles of logic, ethics or other philosophical strands, this is a disease largely confined to the right wing. (to the extent that right wing has any meaning any more, or ever did).

"Looking to latch on to unsubstantiated belief systems". Yeah, the current set-up is about a thousandth of just about any other time in the history of humanity. Secularism has never had such an established foothold as now, nor been so widely accepted. Anything straying from that norm is seen to be so, and often as not ridiculed. Should have been around in the 60's and 70's, some weird and wacky shit going on there.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, have held some unsubstantiated belief systems in the past and still do to some extent, but not on matters of religion. So do you AndyM, so does everybody. Mostly you won't even allow yourself to admit to them.

Yes, belief systems are fundamental to humanity, you can't live without them, glad you've caught on. The trick is to substantiate your unsubstantiated belief systems as much as possible, and to be quick to slough them off as soon as enough evidence comes to hand to show you they are false, contradictory, self-dissolving bull, cognitively dissonant.

It's a little easier to be flexible in your unsubstantiated belief systems if you just think of them as narratives, stories you tell yourself so you can go to sleep at night.

As for identity politics, it's days of greatest influence are behind it, for some generations I'd say. Like neoliberalism, people have worked out that this stuff just divides and annoys, and as Stu points out basically doesn't happen in the lives of the vast bulk of the people, just a bunch of outsiders and academics who make a living out of it. Having been largely beaten down, people don't give much of a shit about that any more, they would like higher wages and not be in debt up to their eyeballs.

Not wrong. Just sometimes a bit dumb.

You've only got to look at the political comments on here to see many of 'the left' love a bit of christian bashing (whilst vehemently defending a different monotheism I might add).

Most people do need to believe in something, it's just how it is. I know that term 'social marxism' isn't popular around here, but you know what it refers too. There's a reason social marxists are just as self righteous and dogmatic as any other religuon. It's belief.

Many socialogists have pointed out the odd ways we seek spirituality, meaning, belonging, and belief in the modern context. Be it celebrity, shopping or joining an urban tribe.

No it's just your clumsy grouping that sounds eerily similar to another poster, and ultimately does nothing but drive division.

I'm one of them yet I don't subscribe to the things you claim.

"...Like neoliberalism, people have worked out that this stuff just divides and annoys, and as Stu points out basically doesn't happen in the lives of the vast bulk of the people, just a bunch of outsiders and academics who make a living out of it."

If only the media, activists, and certain politicians would realise....real fucking quick!....the division is now verging on dangerous.

Batfink, my interest there is not why people are freaked out by neoliberalism, it's their response to it.

And I think Stu et al is right - the basis of neoliberalism is everyman for himself (unless you're a corporation and then you get government handouts but I digress...)

"As for rejecting established science, or even basic principles of logic, ethics or other philosophical strands, this is a disease largely confined to the right wing."

I always thought so too, hence why I'm interested in what appears to be the Left getting in on the act.

And tell me about my unsubstantiated belief systems, I expect they exist but what are they? Genuine question.

I dunno about that stunet you guys were all pretty trigger happy pre trump/brexit.

Its a credit to you all that you've all toned it down a bit, but it's pretty clear where some of you guys are coming from.

BTW I've said it before, I pretty much agree with everything you guys say. And if push comes to shove I'd probably vote with blindboy everytime. Every single time (except labor at this point in time).

I'm just trying to give you an insight into how it comes across to other people. Like all the dudes in my ghetto which I often return to. They would never have considered voting right two decades ago. But the left and it's contemporary agenda is slowly dwindling them away...

OK, just reading back this page I'm more confused (been deliberately staying away from this thread). Everyone has said something I can agree with and only a few have said something I can't agree with.

Carry on.

I get the impression that we are busily arguing about the correct way to express the same idea.