Freedom of speech
So would some kind of Truth & Reconcilliation Commission, similar to what SA did post apartheid, be better than a treaty? Put all the skeletons out there in the open.
Exactly right Zen, the process of restorative justice has hardly begun in this country. Consider a current issue in Sydney. The Metrolitan Land Council wants some of their land in Belrose, an up market northern suburb, rezoned residential so they can sell it to a developer. The land is currently bush. There is very significant local opposition to this including, I believe, an ex PM who lives nearby. The area is virtually surrounded by a large National Park, represents an insignificant part of its total area and has no great ecological importance. Sometimes you wonder exactly what thought processes go through people's minds on issues like this, then you remember that self-interest explains most bastardry.
blarney, interesting you draw attention to financial reconcilation. not sure what you meant to say, but i'll add that no acceptable or suitable solution will be found in this space if money is the focus. finance is an enabler to acheive the end goals.
whatever the answer to all of this it starts and finishes with asking Aboriginals what they reckon and not dismissing the answer.
“In Australia very few perpetrators were brought to justice. I’m a historian so it’s not my intention to bring people to justice with this map. However, we do know the impact of massacre reverberates across the generations. When I visit Aboriginal communities today the first thing they do is take you to the massacre site,” Professor Ryan said.'
Imagine the sentence and punishment for repeated, vile, heinous crimes committed in britain, in the past, or now. Certain life imprisonment, no possibility for parole. As has been pointed out, and is beyond doubt, literally no one has ever been sentenced with anything, despite irrefutable, and perpetuated crimes against Indigenous Australians.
'However, we do know the impact of massacre reverberates across the generations.'
Surely that is a no brainer. Yet,the brilliant, self serving, racist solution is just move on? From this?
“They are absolutely callous and horrendous,” Ryan said, adding that she and other researchers often had to take a break from the work because could not read another account of slaughter.'
“It is very traumatising, and you have to walk away from it … It’s probably another reason why it’s taking so long [to pull the map together],” she said.'
And, that racist slant, it's not just my 'ranting' as blowie so brilliantly describes it.
'Never mind any of that because, as amateur historian Kyle Sandilands said, “get over it, it’s 200 years ago.”
This is a common catch-cry of white Australia, one that flies in the face of our other famous war slogan “Lest We Forget”.
It is a catch-cry so filled with racist crap that we rarely stop to unpack it, but it has always made me curious about just what people like Sandilands think so many Indigenous people are angry about.
Do they think that all of this is about our refusal to “get over” the fact that Captain Cook landed here over 200 years ago, rather than everything that has happened since?
Pemulwuy was killed over 200 years ago, but today his head still sits, unnamed, on a shelf in England somewhere.'
Balance? A nice, convenient, self serving just get over it, to be applied to one group of people, that were subjected to the most prolonged, vile crimes in human history, balanced with 'Lest we Forget' applied to another group of people, the knowing, or unwitting beneficiaries of those crimes.
'So would some kind of Truth & Reconcilliation Commission, similar to what SA did post apartheid, be better than a treaty? Put all the skeletons out there in the open.'
Yes, in a way, but again, shouldn't Indigenous Australians have a huge say in that. And as they request, self determination. Considering all of the above, all of the irrefutable evidence presented, in a way, its virtually like criminals being allowed to decide their own sentence. I had it made clear to me that Indigenous Australians didn't teach me about their situation and Cultures so that I could decide what to do for them, or what would be best for them, but so that I could understand them , and be a part of supporting their Self Determined decisions. The naive, misconceived, unintentionally insulting arrogance in continually thinking and deciding what would be best, in the context of all of the evidence about the heinous, evil, perpetuated crimes committed by the british against Indigenous Australians was undeniable. Self Determination, and yes, the whole, sordid truth on the table, with an air of true reconciliation is the message that I got.
I see the big 'show' is going on blowie. 'Show' you say? You mean this type of thing? All this that you said. That you put on 'show'. For the world. That suddenly now you don't want raised or commented on?
https://www.swellnet.com/forums/wax/12736
Again, you are avoiding and misrepresenting the truth blowie. We have huge disagreements. Despite your limited knowledge and education in the subject, you have repeatedly mocked, misrepresented, and slandered Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures, even describing them as 'garbage'. Part of your education consists of, in your own words, attending a Cultural Sensitivity presentation, and then lecturing the presenter, when she got, in your own words, too much like me.
'I actually said that to an indigenous lady that was presenting a course on cultural sensitivity that I attended after she'd laid it on too thickly that Whitey only cares for himself , not even his family, unlike her faultless people....very Upliftesque.'
Cultural Sensitivity? Not racist? Can you hear yourself? 'Garbage'. In the context and light of all of the evidence presented, by the expert compilation of that map alone, and the issues it highlights, which is really the tip of the iceberg, combined with this type of expression, also common knowledge if you are inclined to be truly educated,
'Never mind any of that because, as amateur historian Kyle Sandilands said, “get over it, it’s 200 years ago.”
This is a common catch-cry of white Australia, one that flies in the face of our other famous war slogan “Lest We Forget”.
It is a catch-cry so filled with racist crap that we rarely stop to unpack it, but it has always made me curious about just what people like Sandilands think so many Indigenous people are angry about.
Do they think that all of this is about our refusal to “get over” the fact that Captain Cook landed here over 200 years ago, rather than everything that has happened since?
Pemulwuy was killed over 200 years ago, but today his head still sits, unnamed, on a shelf in England somewhere.'
You utter statements like this?
' A political body constituent of people's that are often times as European as Indigenous by blood .'
I won't be slanderous, I'll just use your posts directed at me to describe that.
'What the fuck are you talking about ?
Woah , I just caught myself addressing you as though you were sane.'
When you have no answers about the truth about Traditional Indigenous Cultures and your lack of knowledge in the subject, you then try to ridicule and slander my education in the area. When you are caught out, and I am more than happy to prove my well above average, formally acknowledged education in the subject, you dodge the issue, and again revert to as you say, a 'smartarse', adopting this angle of slanderous posting.
PS Sorry Lifty , did I forget you ? Here you go you fucking moron....https://m.
We also have another huge disagreement blowie, that you continually avoid. Self Determination for Indigenous Australians. With sensitivity, in the context of all of the above, you then offer this about the matter.
'Who would be willing to vacate their home for a political body representative of the First Nation ancestors ? A political body constituent of people's that are often times as European as Indigenous by blood .'
The 'show' goes on. Now its the episode about poor, little, hard done by blowie.
'Lifty , I think your turtle neck compression onesy ( cough , cough , leotard , cough ) might be a bit tight .
It's making you hysterical.'
'What the fuck are you talking about ?
Woah , I just caught myself addressing you as though you were sane.'
'Who would be willing to vacate their home for a political body representative of the First Nation ancestors ? A political body constituent of people's that are often times as European as Indigenous by blood.'
Oh dear..is there an off switch?
'Oh dear..is there an off switch?'
You are obviously referring to this sort of racist statement, that you posted?
'I can't believe nobody came up with the old line.
"It doesn't matter how much milk you put in coffee it's still coffee"
Which well is not true at some point it just becomes coffee flavour milk.'
Historian :D
the massacre map was discussed on ABC The Drum tonight.
iview for catch up.
my comment about old pastoralist families also came up.
not a bad writeup on trip-advisor....
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-01-24/rottnest-lodge-redevelopment-plan/...
More and more interesting information surfacing. Things are definitely moving in the right direction.
'Historian :D'
Well no meindoripcoorl, your suspect racist 'history' is pretty simple to find. If you do your homework, you see that you made this comment:
'I can't believe nobody came up with the old line.
"It doesn't matter how much milk you put in coffee it's still coffee"
Which well is not true at some point it just becomes coffee flavour milk.'
in relation to you having argued and posted after having done a few 'half bored' googles to boost your 'expertise', along the lines of your following, in the context of this whole Indigenous Australian issue unbelievably distasteful, racist remarks:
'I don't buy into this BS even at 50/50 i think people are mixed race at best mixed race, but yeah you could say mixed race with an indigenous background if you like.
I know it sounds harsh and totally politically incorrect but if it doesn't look like a duck and doesn't quake like a duck it's not a duck.
This identifying thing is just BS, its like if my pure bred bulldog got it on with the neighbours poodle the dogs would be mixed bred dogs, neither poodles nor bulldogs.'
You were then vigorously challenged on your recently googled 'expertise', and 'racist remarks.
I don't know of anywhere where those statements wouldn't be considered racist, or acceptable. The history is 100% accurate. Funny thing is, the guilty are always innocent.
That massacre map is a reminder of what a fuck up the Brits made of things but its good to see the facts are slowly making their way to the surface in the mainstream media.
Before I went to Oz I was naive about the realities of Indigenous Australians, on TV and in books the portrayal of an ancient and respected people struggling to adapt to modern life was believable but in hindsight it was never Indigenous Australians telling the story.
The respect aspect of what I 'd heard was the most obvious fallacy, we're no stranger to casual racism in the UK but its delivery is more often than not conscious and deliberate. Use of words like 'abo' was widespread, didn't even register as racist for most people we met and talking about Indigenous Australians in terms of being a sub species to white Australians was not only an accepted way of thinking but a not uncommon one. Evidence given ranging from 'in all that time they never invented the car' to 'they live in mud huts' wasn't even challenged by many.
I mean we have some horrible racist cunts in the UK but you generally know who they are as they single themselves out and form like minded groups but the pervasive nature of racism in Australia is unnerving. Of course there are those who aren't racist and are abhorred by the day to day conversations they hear, the reality of life for Indigenous Australians and the last couple of hundred years of persecution they have endured. But having been through an education system which is inherently racist and having been constantly sneered at by their white, flag waving, lucky country, another day in paradise, countrymen, they have found a way of coping which generally involves keeping quiet and who can blame them.
The white guilt argument is an interesting one, as a proud nation along the lines of Scotland its hard to see how white Australia can ever start to properly address the problems facing Indigenous Australians without doing something that the national psyche won't allow. The conception by the flag wavers being that why should white Australia walk around hanging its head in shame, after all they were born there as well and it was the UK's fault anyway. And thats about where the conversation ends. The only other place I've experienced this denial of the recent past is Germany where in stark contrast to the UK and many other countries where Grandads war stories are seen as something to be proud of and passed on, no one really wants to know what Grandad or Grandma got up to in the war. They'd like to know what the fuck they were thinking but those questions will never be asked. If guilt is knowing you've been part of something that is inherently wrong and shame is other people knowing you've been part of it and these two emotions are an inevitable part of any possible mending process white Australia must go through then I can't see it happening. Guilt by being a beneficiary of genocide is no small beer and is totally at odds with the 'another day in paradise' front presented to the world by white Australia. Trouble is less and less people are buying it.
So where to from here, I've looked, and read and browsed and listened and there isn't a definitive answer. Handing the reigns to Indigenous Australians is the most obvious and clear position but what is the likelihood of that ever happening?
When thinking about the future for Australia I always think back to a story i read in Mr Stuarts Track where some early white explorers have pushed inland and found themselves lost, without water and close to death. Some Indigenous Australians have been following them on and off at a distance for a few days and just when the explorers think they are done, the Indigenous Australians approach and lead them to an innocuous looking pile of rocks which it turns out marks a spring. The water is cool, crystal clear and they all drink, rest and recover. Mr Stuart marvels at the ease with which the Indigenous Australians move and navigate through the landscape and speculates that this and other water holes have been used for thousands of years. Six months later he is passing through the same area on another expedition and heads for the spring. Thousands of cattle are standing in a muddy patch of ground, dead and rotting animals are strewn around the area and any sign of the spring or any drinkable water is gone. The unfolding disaster is not lost on Mr Stuart and he expresses guilt at the abuse of such an important resource but he has his own demons and he moves on.
I think of that story because for the early white Australians those cattle marked progress, the future, tenacity, prosperity and those ideas are still firmly lodged in modern white Australians. Looking back, reflecting, learning at school that your forebears were a bunch of greedy, murderous, hypocritical, dumb cunts and feeling angry enough about it to want to force change isn't part of the picture. Without wanting to sound glib I actually think modern Australia is on borrowed time, whether part of a global 'correction' or just because in my opinion modern life in Oz in the long term is unsustainable for non Indigenous Australians. Its those hot days when the streets are deserted and everyone is in an air conditioned box be it shopping center, house, car. The water extraction from huge rivers like the Darling and Murray which lead them to dry up (see the muddy spring), the reliance on desalination plants and the power all of this needs, the prevalence of skin cancer on pasty northern European skin. Just doesn't seem like white people are meant to be there to me, too much battling the environment and theres only ever one winner in that contest. Two hundred years is nothing really. So I don't see a solution to the problems addressing Indigenous Australians in the current era, possibly some sort of acknowledgement of the genocidal events and the atrocities which took place to create modern Australia but it will be tokenism. With 60000 years behind them i think by virtue of being Indigenous Australians it will be they who re inherit the land, whatever is left of it anyway.
That's an interesting read upnorth. The water well thing strikes a chord. We/I am lucky living here, one of my surfing mates is a world renowned archaeologist, who also does constant work with Indigenous Australians. He has published some of his work, which altered previous conceptions regarding timelines and dates re Indigenous occupation. Going walking around the land with him, at the spots we would surf is a total buzz, as he see's things differently He points out all these sign posts in the landscape, that when he points them out are suddenly totally obvious, amasing, and put a whole new perspective on things. He highlights that all across the cliffs at the bight/nullabor are drinking sources, wells in the rock, covered by stones, so that Indigenous Australians could seasonally move from waterhole to waterhole, in a comfortable fashion and make their way across the continent.
Again your post highlights the overall peaceful, helping nature of Indigenous Australians towards the british, despite numerous laws being ignorantly broken by them, and despite self serving attempts to portray them as violent savages. A conditioned to be violent Culture would have attacked any intruder instantly, as is supported by research in numerous fields of study. Naturally after being provoked to the extreme, by the brtish, Indigenous Australians were left with no option but to fight back. Again, without experience or equipment or tactics of open, wholesale, large scale warfare.
That looks deluxe, people have been busy! Nice website.
Upnorth, have a look at Arnhem Land and how it works, access, etc also how some of the communities are run in the bush. There are a large number of 'mobs' (as Mundine would say). The education is a key issue and a difficult one to say the least.
@Herc Oh yes calling a spade a spade instead of a rake is racist.
It's basic maths dude, the biggest part of something is the majority of something 51% share is bigger than a 49% share and once the majority of something is much much more than the minority there is no doubt, there is no fuzzy line like there could be at 50/50.
Yeah I'm racist because i don't accept that someone with majority non Aboriginal blood suddenly can identify as Aboriginal because they find out their great grandmother was Aboriginal.
I call it as it is a complete joke.
Call me racist if you like, but you are only doing so because its the easiest way to shut done my opinion to try to validate yours (typical far left tactic)
Meanwhile you use the words "Old Uncle whitey" to me skin colour is only a indicator not a deciding factor, I've always stuck to DNA or Bloodline.
Old uncle whitey could be Aboriginal couldn't he?
You generalise on how all Aboriginal people think and feel...(generalising about a whole race)
Despite the fact I have given you proof with a video discussion and links that Aboriginal people don't all feel or think the same way and even proof some share my views (well known and respected ones)
You paint everything Aboriginal as wonderful and everything non Aboriginal in a negative light, while you call Blowin racist because he thinks the dream time is a load of crock just like any made up stories.
That doesn't make him racist anymore than not liking any other beliefs or even a culture if he choose, thats his choice and right.
(BTW. just for the record i kinda like the dreamtime stories, my Auntie who I'm very close to worked as a teacher for may years in Aboriginal communities in Ommbulgurri far NE WA and came back with stories and books with dreamtime stories that i loved as a kid)
You call yourself a "cough cough" Historian but live in some fantasy land thinking life was easy and perfect and without any conflict before non aboriginals came,(despite the evidence by true historians) but yeah I'm racist because i acknowledge that life wasn't easy and there was often conflict.
And I'm racist because i think its very subjective that Aboriginal were successful and depends on how you measure it, if measured by progression and #evolution and invention then no it's not a very successful culture, if you measure success by surviving (as all current races/cultures have) and having little impact on the environment, then yes you could see that as successful.
Anyway I'm about done with you Herc, I've said what i need to have said, i know you would love it if i was racist or hated Aboriginal people or culture as would give you some validation.
But the reality is i have just as much time and respect for Aboriginal people as any other people and technically in this weird world of Identifying some of my friends (one my best mate) could identify as Aboriginal, but you know what they don't because they feel the same way i do.
#Evolution, not physically more as in general progression.
'@Herc Oh yes calling a spade a spade instead of a rake is racist.'
You know meindorippincooorl, you could have saved yourself twenty seven and a half hours or so and just said.
Here I go again Herc, corze I'm just like that underdeveloped little girl that yelled mindless racist shit at Adam Goodes, without having the faintest clue what she was actually doing.
https://www.bustle.com/articles/120208-5-popular-phrases-with-shockingly...
http://www.theroot.com/when-racism-slips-into-everyday-speech-1790875694
I know its asking a lot meindorippincooorl, but if you aren't too bored today, see if you can really concentrate for just a few seconds (not too long now!), and notice the websites stating that the term you use so freely, don't say www.Herc. No mention of Herc. In talking about your racist comment. In the context of the subject matter, and the other terms that have rolled off of your tongue, you make that little girl look like a highly learned and developed 45 year old genius at the use of the English language.
Please don't make it any worse than it already is meindorippincooorl. Although, you aren't auditioning for a starring role in 'The Simpsons' are you?
'You (Herc) generalise on how all Aboriginal people think and feel...(generalising about a whole race)'
I did the opposite. Ive already answered all of your questions many times.
'Here's some news for you ibinindotomesoripcooooorl, Tradtional Indigenous Australians already had numerous different Cultures and different people living in relative harmony, working together for the common good, for 60,000 years, before the british sleazily, manically ran amuck. 60,000 years. You know? Shit hang on, let me break that down so you at least have a shot at it. 1(you know, one) x 6 (you know six) = 6. So then 6 (you know, six) x 10 (you know ten)... ahh fuck it, now you are probably 'feeling' light headed. Why don't you just get all your 'good 'ol uncle whitey clan boyz together and see if you can google what 60,000 means?'
' Our founders. Our own people. No wars. No armies. No chiefs. No political system as our conditioning perceives it. Outstanding environmental and egalitarian Cultural record. Unmatched by any other Culture anywhere. No one comes remotely close. Outstanding record and example of over 600 different Cultural groups living in relative peace, and keeping to a common goal. For at least 60,000 years.'
You are the one dodging false claims that you make, like this. It is you that says all Indigenous kids have to think the same, using yet another hair brained, baseless theory for support.
'and like most cultures people especially among the young they are not always so interested in tradition culture and are more interested in things outside their culture like music, technology, internet/computer games, movies, drugs, porn etc. (this problem is seen among many cultures for example traditional Mentawai people, were the children as they grow old enough want to move to a city and live a non traditional life)'
This is real. Deluxe. And just a glimpse.
https://www.jurakisurf.com/the-story-1
People are very busy, change is in the air, deluxe! Self Determination.
'Now seems as good as any time as too shamelessly put up a free ad !
A indigenous surf and culture festival at Fingal head. Nsw.
11th and 13th August.
If you need any more info on surfing, whats there for families or setting up a market stall-
Rather than read / google about our shared history ...get out and meet ya orginal locals.
Worst thing that will happen is you have a great time and make some new mates and understand we are much more all the same than different !'
That's the Spirit. A real invitation to embrace and celebrate our real founders, and their family, and all that encompasses, and their one of a kind, 60,000 year rich Cultures.
Don't be too concerned if you don't quite understand the term 'racist'. Even our guiding Human Rights Commission has failed and let many down in explaining it. A very subjective interpretation is required.
Flippant frivolous Friday, nice work Tonybarber
'Don't be too concerned if you don't quite understand the term 'racist'. Even our guiding Human Rights Commission has failed and let many down in explaining it. A very subjective interpretation is required.'
Racism is for peanuts. And, even when you show people over and over, how to shell them, some never get it. Even when you finally put them on a plate, some never get it. Peanuts. Do you actually have to shell them for them as well? Balanced you say. Even the language isn't.
This is real. Deluxe. And just a glimpse.
https://www.jurakisurf.com/the-story-1
People are very busy, change is in the air, deluxe! Self Determination.
'Now seems as good as any time as too shamelessly put up a free ad !
A indigenous surf and culture festival at Fingal head. Nsw.
11th and 13th August.
If you need any more info on surfing, whats there for families or setting up a market stall-
Rather than read / google about our shared history ...get out and meet ya orginal locals.
Worst thing that will happen is you have a great time and make some new mates and understand we are much more all the same than different !'
That's the Spirit. A real invitation to embrace and celebrate our real founders, and their family, and all that encompasses, and their one of a kind, 60,000 year rich Cultures.
So tb, would you like to tell us the exact purpose of your post, if it is not to encourage, racist, quasi-racist and borderline racist comments?
More importantly I think we need to recognise that indigenous culture is the most vibrant and successful area of Australian culture. Indigenous artists are internationally recognised as culturally significant while Australia's mainstream European derived artists are barely known outside the country. In classical music the most innovative and important Australian artist is William Barton, an indigenous man who incorporates didgeridu into his works. In popular music give a listen to the Deadly Hearts compilation. Indigenous culture can be the backbone that this country so badly needs, a way of bringing us together to say " We are not American, we are not European, we do things differently here." Consider " She'll be right mate!" Where the fuck did that come from if not indigenous culture? It's not a sentiment any Irish or Englishman ever voiced. There is somewhere in mainstream culture a thread that comes direct,y from indigenous culture and it is the thread that identifies us as Australian. Lose that and we might as well sign on as the 51st state.
Racism to me requires intent. Determining whether someone is being racist on an online forum isnt straightforward in my book. Particularly if you don't know much about the person.
happy, when in doubt on this issue, don't. It is that simple. Racism is so deeply entrenched in our culture that any statement in that area should be deeply considered before being expressed.
Agree with that bb.
happy, I disagree with your comment on intent but Tonybarber, a long time critic of the HRC and 18c, would love it. The latter 1/2 of that sentence covers your 2nd point, TonyBarber has form here hence Blindboy's 12.45pm question. I also agree racism is deeply entrenched in our culture.
'Racism is so deeply entrenched in our culture that any statement in that area should be deeply considered before being expressed.'
Agreed. Look how much care we take in something as trivial in comparison, like surfing. If we go to a new area, we make efforts to see how things work there, or there are consequences. Each place is different. Even on my coast. When we saw someone had made the effort to see how the line works, no problem. They could get heaps of waves. Some places say Bingin, you can wait all day, and if you are a visitor, with little in the way of contacts, and the locals want to surf, then you have to forget about the best waves. Same at a break like caves. Where pick your time becomes the rule. Some places, some days, the waves call the shots. If you ignorantly ignore the rules, you are tuned. If you deliberately ignore the rules, your intent is crystal clear.
Imagine joining conversations with Jewish people, and spitting out Nazi based sayings.
The original intention of this whole topic has been questioned by many. There's a saying.
You can't spit in someone's face and tell them its raining.
' Indigenous culture can be the backbone that this country so badly needs, a way of bringing us together to say " We are not American, we are not European, we do things differently here." Consider " She'll be right mate!" Where the fuck did that come from if not indigenous culture? It's not a sentiment any Irish or Englishman ever voiced. There is somewhere in mainstream culture a thread that comes direct,y from indigenous culture and it is the thread that identifies us as Australian. Lose that and we might as well sign on as the 51st state.'
Agreed. And as blindboy pointed out, here's just a glimpse.
This is real. Deluxe.
https://www.jurakisurf.com/the-story-1
People are very busy, change is in the air, deluxe! Self Determination.
'Now seems as good as any time as too shamelessly put up a free ad !
A indigenous surf and culture festival at Fingal head. Nsw.
11th and 13th August.
If you need any more info on surfing, whats there for families or setting up a market stall-
Rather than read / google about our shared history ...get out and meet ya orginal locals.
Worst thing that will happen is you have a great time and make some new mates and understand we are much more all the same than different !'
That's the Spirit. A real invitation to embrace and celebrate our real founders, and their family, and all that encompasses, and their one of a kind, 60,000 year rich Cultures.
I agree i think racism has to have intent behind it, otherwise things just get ridiculous if it is only about offence taken.
Especially these days when everyone is offended about something.
For example i could take offence of the continually use of "Old uncle whitey" especially when used in a negative context, and call Herc racist (although I'm not even sure if you can be racist towards your own race?)
I mean, I'm even racist now because i use some old quote "call a spade a spade" because apparently once it had a racist meaning, quite obviously thats not something i knew and i had no intent on using it in a racist way, if i continue to use that quote does that make me racist?
Personally i think not.
And these kind of things are in part just another reason more and more there seems a backlash towards the far left and a move towards the right, because shit is just getting ridiculous.
BTW. I was thinking today as i was working Rob Henry the guy who has basically taken on a traditional Mentawai life, lived with the traditional Mentawai people, got the tatts can speak their dialect and is basically accepted into the clan. https://www.swellnet.com/news/swellnet-dispatch/2017/03/09/worlds-divide...
If he choose to identify as Traditional Mentawai person, could he, and would that mean he is a traditional Mentawai person? (even though he might not hold Indonesian citizenship)
no it doesn't necessarily make you racist indo, and that was the point i was trying to make about online conversations - i cant read your body language, your tone, and so how do i really know what the goal of your single line comment is. but what your joke does definitely do (and potentially purely out of ignorance) is spread and legitimize the use of racism in people who are actually racist. i.e. making it seem ok when its not. so for that reason i reckon BB has it right, better left not to say it.
Indo, wherever one sits with these arguments I personally don't think its a left or right thing at all. Its a reflection, in part, at how social media allows people to express themselves without the previous checks and balances of a face to face meeting and also how people seem to be more angry or less content with the world. People are now fiercely defending their right to free speech behind the safety of keyboard and tend to seek like minded people in forums and other internet platforms. Internet bubbles.
These differences of opinion or biases or prejudices aren't new its the platforms. Further, in the past I wonder whether people were more careful or refined in the use of language. People were more polite if you like.
That being said I really do think that while we might all have a right to free speech in an inclusive and {insert your own positive adjective(s)} society people would/should take care not to offend or even inadvertently offend or cause harm to someone with the use of careless language.
take care. exactly guy. thats what its all about.
I think its important to challenge the way people think, personally I'm willing to take the risk of being called racist because i know how i feel and those that know me know how far from the truth it would be.
I think the left have really tried to make talking about things like skin colour and bloodline tabo, I've noticed in Indonesian culture it's much more accepted to talk about skin colour they even have saying "hitam manis" which means "sweet black" in Australia this would be considered racist, but in Indonesia its a form of endearment, in a culture where most people want to have white/lighter skin, just as in Australian many want more olive/brown skin.
I think there is so many fuzzy lines around racism and to a degree i think maybe we are all a little racist whether we admit it or not, just because its often hard to not make a judgment to some degree about somebody based on appearance.
For example if you saw a group of Aboriginal people in a park drinking most people would possibly think differently to if you saw a group of say non aboriginal people in the park drinking.
The conclusion of why they are there etc could be different based on basically race.
Even if you thoughts are, oh that's so sad they really need more support and help, you have still judged them based on race.
While if they were a group of feral/hippies you might think typical dole bulging feral on the piss in the park.
I guess thats maybe not technicality racism, but another fuzzy line.
So indo, if it is important to challenge the way people think, let me put a real example to you about "blood", as you like to call it. Her great-grand-father was murdered in a massacre near Kempsey, her grand- mother was part of the stolen generation and was put in one of the homes in that area. Later she lived in one of the local indigenous communities where her mother was born and where most of her relatives still live. Would you pick her as indigenous from her appearance? Absolutely not. By your standard she is not indigenous. How could you possibly justify that?
@ Blindboy I guess if both her grandparents are Aboriginal that makes one of her parents Aboriginal.
Im assuming from your post description that maybe one of her other parents is not Aboriginal?
So i guess technically she is of mixed race with Aboriginal heritage.
That said 50/50 is a fuzzy line because neither here nor there, there is no majority unless she has one Aboriginal parent and one parent of mixed race that includes Aboriginal bloodline.
But If she then has children with a non Aboriginal person her children will be 75% non Aboriginal and 25% Aboriginal.
Just because her grandparent sadly suffered a sad past that shouldn't of happened doesn't really change things, my Dutch grandfather hid in the cellar for the whole war hiding from the Germans, my grandmother got raped by the Germans above and he heard it all, obviously not as bad as your story but still sad. (my point is it doesn't help my case for being Dutch)
Obviously both my grandparents on one side were Dutch, just because i have Dutch heritage doesn't make me Dutch, even if i did eat a lot of Dutch food when i was young and learnt some Dutch, went to Dutch festivals etc I also had a Welsh grandmother and English grandfather, i don't get to pick one of those ethnicity's either, i probably have some DNA like many people from all around the world if i do i don't get to pick and choose the one i like either.
Like many I'm just a mixed race mongrel Aussie.
"Half casts"...... A rather repugnant term from my childhood.
And they copped shocking racism.... Double.... The were "black" as far as "white people" were concerned. And they were "white" as far as "black people" were concerned.
Couldn't win either way.
You just dig a deeper hole every time you post on this subject indo. But it's OK you are entitled to your opinion. It may be shallow and absolutely repugnant to many indigenous people but hey, it's yours, you made it up all by yourself so good luck with it. Meanwhile in 2017.......,
Reckon you're more Dutch than you think Indo
https://stuffdutchpeoplelike.com/2011/05/28/dutch-directness/
@ Sheepdog
Just to note i didn't use the word "half-caste" i used the word mixed race.
There is some kind of truth to what you are saying though, i have mixed race Aussie-Indonesian friends, here there considered Indonesian in Indonesia they are considered Aussie and not Indonesian.
@ Blindboy My view is not made up and it's not mine alone i don't consider it shallow, its reality its just how it is it's really not a thing that anyone can argue with either bloodline is bloodline. But yeah each to their own.
@ Guy ha ha that is funny.
Story about the dutch.....i was camping in jasper and had no matches to light the fire. So i Went over to an old dutch couple camping next to me. I asked for a match and the old man gave me a box. took it back to my fire and found it only had one fucking match in it. Well i lit my fire. I returned the empty box to him and he asks.."how many matches did you use".
indo I want to see you squirm on the hook of that opinion, so refer me to where this has been expressed as a valid method of determining indigenous status. Preferably after, oh let's say 1960.
Indo aint no Chomsky, but it doesn't make him a bigot.
Meindorippingcoorldude, although miles too late, you are the one dodging false claims that you make, like this quote below. It is you that states that all Indigenous kids have to think the same, using yet another hair brained, baseless theory for support. There are glaring differences between the Mentawis Culture and Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures, which make comparisons irrelevant. But, yeh you bin ta indo dude, although miles and miles and miles too late! A(nother) indo specialist! A common theme in your posts is to downplay the achievements of Traditional Indigenous Australian Cultures, and to try to paint them as just lucky, violent people. Based on your baseless drivvle, such as, well, isn't everyone? So you utter, in between childlike, redneck, racist blatherings, the likes of this:
'and like most cultures people especially among the young they are not always so interested in tradition culture and are more interested in things outside their culture like music, technology, internet/computer games, movies, drugs, porn etc. (this problem is seen among many cultures for example traditional Mentawai people, were the children as they grow old enough want to move to a city and live a non traditional life)'
And when it is quickly shown to be simply not true, in fact the opposite, you dodge addressing it. So, looking through your posts a pattern quickly emerges. The same pattern good ol uncle whitey used, and uses to do the heinous, illegal things below, hence the apt description for anyone who shows the same attitude and leanings, that is, good 'ol uncle whitey.
'Never mind any of that because, as amateur historian Kyle Sandilands said, “get over it, it’s 200 years ago.”
This is a common catch-cry of white Australia, one that flies in the face of our other famous war slogan “Lest We Forget”.
It is a catch-cry so filled with racist crap that we rarely stop to unpack it, but it has always made me curious about just what people like Sandilands think so many Indigenous people are angry about.
Do they think that all of this is about our refusal to “get over” the fact that Captain Cook landed here over 200 years ago, rather than everything that has happened since?
Pemulwuy was killed over 200 years ago, but today his head still sits, unnamed, on a shelf in England somewhere.'
“In Australia very few perpetrators were brought to justice. I’m a historian so it’s not my intention to bring people to justice with this map. However, we do know the impact of massacre reverberates across the generations. When I visit Aboriginal communities today the first thing they do is take you to the massacre site,” Professor Ryan said.'
“They are absolutely callous and horrendous,” Ryan said, adding that she and other researchers often had to take a break from the work because could not read another account of slaughter.'
“It is very traumatising, and you have to walk away from it … It’s probably another reason why it’s taking so long [to pull the map together],” she said.'
I'd like to see your explanations and opinions on all of the below, which you so far have totally avoided. Well you commented on the video, again the same pattern emerging, see through and shallow, along the lines of just some hip hop video.
This is real. Deluxe. And just a glimpse.
https://www.jurakisurf.com/the-story-1
People are very busy, change is in the air, deluxe! Self Determination.
'Now seems as good as any time as too shamelessly put up a free ad !
A indigenous surf and culture festival at Fingal head. Nsw.
11th and 13th August.
If you need any more info on surfing, whats there for families or setting up a market stall-
Rather than read / google about our shared history ...get out and meet ya orginal locals.
Worst thing that will happen is you have a great time and make some new mates and understand we are much more all the same than different !'
That's the Spirit. A real invitation to embrace and celebrate our real founders, and their family, and all that encompasses, and their one of a kind, 60,000 year rich Cultures.
Racism is a social construct.
A terribly subjective one.
People are a product of their environment, and, individual values will reflect individual environments. It's simples really...
While some half academic, reasonably black, inner city, exemplary blackfella might see merit in spending his genourous study grant on developing a new array of personal pronouns for 2017, I dare say the kid in a remote community -sleeping rough with dogs by night, and scrounging for food and belonging by day - might take a different perspective. And, will pobably think that particular money could have been much better spent elsewhere....
It's probably racist to point out...
"...that indigenous women were 35 times more likely to be hospitalised from violence perpetrated by relatives than other Australian women."
But I dare say we're at a point now where some people just don't care anymore.
"...And she identified a “city-based victim brigade” that was perpetuating “the victim message” that the biggest problem was indigenous people’s suffering under the onslaught of colonialism and at the hands of white government."
Social niceties have their place, but sometimes they're just not that nice really.
And one can go a bit far, if one allows oneself to get a little too caught up in it all.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/indigenous/indigenous-f...
Herc, im trying to just avoid a discussion with you
One: Because you can't have a discussion without name calling or abuse and trying to paint me as something I'm not or twist my views and even add in quotes etc that are in no way related to anything i have said or my view point.
For example, I've never painted Aboriginal people "lucky, violent people" i have said life was not perfect before white fella came and not the dream utopia you paint, and there was conflict and violence.
Two: Because we are going around and around in circles, its pointless and getting old really fast.
So basically lets just agree to disagree and i will go back to basically ignoring your post as i have for years.
Thats not even to say if i met you in real life i would hate you or not have a beer with you, I'm might say "God Herc you give me the shits and you talk so much shit" but i will then cheers you with a beer and actually get to know you, and if your Aboriginal mate was there i would cheers him too and do the same and would have no interest in talking about anything Aboriginal with him unless he wanted to talk about that stuff, because to me he would be just another person.
But to address your point:
First once i read your post i had to laugh at the irony, you use my quote of young people moving away from traditional culture and embracing western culture and then ironically post a link to a website for a Aboriginal event, (which if it was in my area i really might just go a check out) and then again you you post a Youtube video from I'm assuming is an Aboriginal young person who is raping (a music form considered part of African American culture) backed by an European instrument a acoustic guitar (invented in Italy or France apparently)
And no even if i ignore all this irony and just agree that yeah they are being active in respecting there culture or heritage.
It doesn't actually confirm anything, it just confirms there is those that do embrace their culture but in general (my quote again)
"and like most cultures people especially among the young they are not always so interested in tradition culture and are more interested in things outside their culture like music, technology, internet/computer games, movies, drugs, porn etc. (this problem is seen among many cultures for example traditional Mentawai people, were the children as they grow old enough want to move to a city and live a non traditional life"
@ Blindboy
Ive think I've done to death this topic but google "Blood quantum laws" some tribes have very high % to be accepted as high as 50/50, one big reason why is when every tom, dick and harry who has a great great gran that is indigenous claim to be indigenous basically the piece of the pie $$$ gets smaller.
Admittedly drawing the line in the sand at 50/50 would not be a view shared by so many, but i think a legal and proper definition needs to be in place even if it was as low as 25% bloodline, our current one is just not really based on anything more than social acceptance or self identifying.
But really i don't want to go on and on about this, I've already said what i think in the other thread, including going into a little more depth on "Blood quantum laws" (page 2)
Yeah sure they date back before the 60's so does many other things that you might support like the outdated refugee convention we are signed too.
PS. If you haven't already go watch the video i posted on Aboriginal people having a great discussion on this topic many different views and opinions and points.(actually i will dig it up and post it here) real great discussion that shows how divided Aboriginal peoples thoughts are on this kind of thing. (BTW.I think it would have been a much better dissuasion if there was more people like Bessie represented in the crowd though) Still very interesting viewing though.
IMHO from viewing this video again, if i had to sum up my own views and this video confirms it for me, i think there is a difference between being Aboriginal and having some Aboriginal heritage, IMO they are different things.
Some more humour for you Indo .... a former senior executive of mine was Dutch expat. He was universally despised by all staff in the building because of the way he spoke and treated people. New clients were warned in advance about his use of inappropriate language and mannerisms so that they weren't too offended when meeting him for the first time. When cornered on this he would brush it all off my saying "I'm just a simple Dutchman". He always hit the beer hard at Friday lunch and came back to the office doubly obnoxious. The day after he was sacked (for sexual harassment) the staff had a massive party in celebration.
Indo, cheers for posting that Insight video, very interesting.
Also, whether I agree with you or not, respect for civilly standing by your position while other people abuse you and throw shit at you.
Ha ha.
Yeah but really i don't think the stereotypes of Dutch people are really true, like most stereotypes , I've met many Dutch people and they are all very different, some complete pricks some very nice people, some complete tight arses some generous, some outspoken an blunt some not.
Actually only the other day i was at an Indonesian gathering and the topic of Dutch occupation came up, it was interesting the views on Dutch occupation from Indonesians some real positive saying they made Indonesia what it is and brought much positives and some negative, one friend who is very outspoken was speaking really bad about the Dutch and then my wife said that my father is Dutch and she was like oh I'm so so sorry i didn't mean all that or too offend you etc.
And i was like, i don't care at all I'm not dutch and even if i was i wouldn't be offended.
Cheers Andy
Yeah old mate has worked for a firm owned and operated by a expat Dutchman and his 4 sons for the last 20 years. I've met and socialised with all of them. 3 are the friendliest people you could meet but 2 of the sons are permanently hidden in the production side of the business well away from clients. So I totally agree Indo racial stereotypes aren't true at all and that should equally apply to members of the Muslim and Aboriginal communities don't you think?
What is freedom of speech?