Guerilla War Carnage
That friend of mine said a chilling thing once ... he said Israel has nuclear weapons and if the Jews can't live in Israel no-one else will. Think about it.
there lies the problem , there's not just one group of nutcases willing to fight to the bitter end
yet this is the story we are fed
entertained by violence, brainwashed by media or brainwashed by religion and youth given the tools to create havoc. total nonsense.
Blowin wrote:I reckon this would have eventuated regardless of Middle East provocation.
Western countries took advantage of unrest to enact action that would mask economic imperialism.
Islamic leaders desire the expansionism that this unrest provides an opportune justification for.
Thailand, Phillipines, China etc are the initial flash points for this expansionism.
Couple of points:
the term 'Islamic leaders' is pretty meaningless without greater context. The Grand Mufti in Australia seldom meets with his counterpart in Indonesia, nor in Brunei or elsewhere. There are schools of thought in regards to Islamic beliefs and jurisprudence that blocks of people follow, but it is a constant interpretation. Something lost to less informed people (not this forum of course) is that 'Islam' means nothing, for all intents and purposes, until it is interpreted by a person. In other words it is not Islam that is the problem, as it doesn't actually exist. People, on the other hand, do exist and have been causing problems since day dot. So when you say "Islamic leaders desire..." I do have to question who you mean. There are thousands of Islamic leaders, many saying very different things. In my experience in the Islamic world (Iran, India, Indonesia, Malaysia) I am yet to come across an Islamic leader preaching anything expansionist.
We see acts of terrorism in China, the Philippines and Thailand almost entirely due to ethnic/liberation issues. The borders of Thailand and Malaysia are a modern and completely arbitrary invention drawn up by colonial powers who foolishly decided to put ethnic Malay Muslims in Buddhist Thailand, to be governed and ruled under laws and leaders foreign to their locale. In southern Thailand the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF - I know, I know) has been fighting a small scale separatist war for many years, mostly engaging in acts of kidnapping in order to raise funds. In Western China, Uighurs have historically been the majority ethnic group until centralist Beijing started sending more and more Han Chinese to the province in a similar project to the transmigrasi project in Indonesia relocated Javanese people to the provinces. It serves several purposes: to develop new regions economically, to ease overcrowding in cities, and to 'nationalize' ethnic outposts. In China, this has meant that the mostly Muslim Uighurs have had their traditional way of life altered by the national project (similar, again, to what is happening in Papua now - with or without the killing I am not sure?).
In any case, it the three cases you mentioned, acts of violence there have less to do with Islamic expansion and much more to do with long standing ethnic tension and separatist goals (largely the fault of colonial interference way back when).
AndyM wrote:I can't say I'm up to date with French foreign policy and military involvement but I don't see the French as being involved in Middle East (and beyond) conflicts anywhere near the extent of Australia
It is very difficult to keep up with foreign policy, but France has been launching serious air raids on Syria for a while now.
As to your first question.. how do you deal with this is the long term? I want to say 'nobody knows', but in reality that is not true. Many people around the world have been living under such conditions for as long as they have been alive. Children have grown up watching foreign and local military planes fly over their heads and watched guerilla groups rise up from the ground. Historically speaking, wars and violence are common enough. Australia has been, for the most part, exceptionally lucky to have a good run for the last two centuries. Unless of course, you count Indigenous Australians, who probably asked themselves 'how do we deal with this in the long term?' many thousands of times when us white blokes first turned up.
It's probably disingenuous to say we have been lucky. Australia's multiculturalism project has been well managed. Instances have come and gone, but for the most part Australians of all creed and color are free to do what they please within the scope of a non-discriminatory legal system. There are no extra laws placed upon people of any identifiers (religion, race, economic status etc.) which is not true for the rest of the world. The government does not have a deliberate campaign of aggression or oppression towards any singular group. That does arise in civil society, but it is not common, thankfully. If you don't go searching for online jihadi heroes, you will probably never come across one. If you don't go logging on to the United Patriots Front Facebook page (advice I should take myself...) you will not come across ordinary Australian mums and dads with kids in their profile pictures declaring they are going to go out with a cricket bat and beat a Muslim to death. If you do go searching for it though, that kind of thing is out there and it is utterly depressing. Thankfully the irrational racist (but ultimately sheepish) Australian is much more common than the ideological jihadi, but it still breaks my heart to come across either.
I remember having a surf in california and some very heavy military aircraft flew over and I asked the boys are they here to intimidate or re-assure and all I got back was smiles.
Excellent posts Dan x 3.
Now you've done it Dan, you know what I'm going to have a look at.....!
Great post mate.
Sorry for the length but something to think about.
Repeat of a post from a friend.
what happened in paris last night was awful. ı stayed up late following the news in disbelief and ı am so sorry to anyone who has been affected by thee horrible attacks. the international community has responded, as predicted, by showing their unwavering solidarity with paris.
the night before that, a bomb went off in my country, lebanon, killing 43 people. no one prayed for us. no one kept us in their thoughts. no world leaders made late-night statements about us. no one changed their profile pictures. there was no hashtag. no option to be "marked as safe" by facebook. just silence.
syria has suffered more than can be quantified in words and distilled into a facebook status. they get nothing. just more silence.
73 palestinians were killed by ısrael in october alone. silence.
nearly 100 people were killed by explosions at a peace rally in ankara last month. just silence.
at least 3,500 people have been killed in nigeria, cameroon, chad, and niger in conflict this year. silence.
ı'm not even angry at this point, just tired. exhausted. exhausted that an assault on an open air prison like gaza which leaves 2300 people dead gets little to no attention but the minute something happens in europe, something happens to white people, everyone is so (ı think quite genuinely) broken up about it.
ı'm not saying don't be. ı'm not saying that the people who lost their lives last night do not deserve to be mourned because of course they do. they were innocent and now they are dead.
as an arab, we know better than anyone how it hurts and we should all continue to keep them in our thoughts. but what about us? don't we deserve to be mourned? are we not human enough? are we too arab for you? too black for you? too other for you? do you find it impossible to empathise with us because of the colour of our skin? there's a word for that.
and then, after all of this, after all is said and done. after it hits us, just how little we matter. just how insignificant and inferior we are as human beings. that's when the best part comes. my favourite part.
apologise. we are told to apologise. ıt is demanded of us. we need to apologise for the actions of barbarians who have been doing their worst to us for so long now. we are the victims. what you experience at the hands of these extremists is a fraction of what syria experiences. of what lebanon experiences. we put up with it every single day. and now, in some kind of sick, twisted joke, we are asked to apologise. we are to be held accountable. the main victims and refugees of this tragedy must pay. as if we have not yet paid enough in blood and land and dignity.
sorry. we're sorry that you have occupied our lands, pillaged them, divvied them up between you like gold. we're sorry that you've robbed us of our wealth, dignity and freedom. we're sorry that you've left nothing in your wake except rubble and anger. we're sorry that those disillusioned and disenfranchised people you left in your wake hurtle into extremism. we're sorry that you benefit from their barbarity. we're sorry that you allow them to do these things to us, that you encourage them and provide them with the resources they need to do us harm. we're sorry they turn against you in the end. we're sorry they come back for you. we're sorry. we hope you can find it in you to forgive us.
I have very little pity for a nation that is surrounded by this mess .
Westerners may have interfered in that region for milenia , but to be fair the natives do a fair job of fucking up the place of their own volition .
So somewhere like Australia that has successfully maintained gentrified peace for close to 200 years has to now take responsibility and even encourage people to move here and when religion is involved bring all their problems here with them . Europe not much different .
( yes I didn't include the aboriginal cultures suffering , as to some extent there issues are as much to do with their isolation for such a long time as it has to do with cultural imperialism . ) .
Anyway it doesn't matter if people have an opinion , we have to self assess and denigrate our position as that's the ideological stand point . All coming from an ease of a platform from the relative safety that 200 years of stability . But let's not start sucking each other's dicks , there are many a problem just around the corner from us . The underworld itself will prove a force in the not too distant future . Which probably reflects what someone else was saying in regards to the prison fraternity . Complexity is the burden of time .
Not sure how anyone is going to respond your comment southey, I'm pretty confused about what your point is in the latter half?
In any case, I think that discounting the impact that the arrival of the British had on Aboriginals across Australia speaks volumes about where we see ourselves in the wider world. Their problems, as you say, do not stem from distance. They stem from the moment that a colonizing entity arrived and took over successive indigenous nations by force, denied their existence, overlaid a foreign law system that continued to deny their existence and then their humanity, throughout that process unknown numbers (at least to me) of people were enslaved, beaten, raped, tortured and killed. It's not a problem of distance.
That aside, Australia does not have to take anyone. Plenty of countries refuse to. Australia takes refugees (albeit begrudgingly) because by and large, Australians want to help desperate people fleeing tragedy. No matter how loud some people are about their distrust of anything brown, of anything Islamic, the majority of us just see people and see enough of themselves in those people that we demand our government do something to help. I can't imagine fear ever taking hold of our country to such a point that the majority of us would rather let innocent people suffer than let them in.
Time would of proven another form of demise of the aboriginal status quo . For the English would of been only the first of colonial oppressors to actually want to stay on these shores . Don't get me wrong , I'm not some Union jack lover , I have a true contempt for their ilk as they " condemned " my family to these shores . " for the term of their natural life " ...... It's close to paradise now , but back then it was a struggle .
The local koori's taught my family well , and I'm indebted to them for their love of this land and Inturn learni g to work with it .
That still doesn't change the old world being gate crashed by the new world .
Back to the ME , the old world is now going to try and shake up the new /western world . And they will succeed to a certain extent , because the western world in general has become soft . I'm not talking armies /politics etc , I'm talking to the very last man . Soft .
The second half addresses how everyone has become the PC , yes man . And how in vogue it has become to attack the patriot or anyone that wants to champion accomplishments that have been achieved on this brutally roar Austral landscape . We've built this country from very little in a relative short time . It's okay to occasionally be openly proud . It's the actions beyond that which counts , not rhetoric .
Interesting comments above. But I sense what we are seeing is totally different to the many past and current ethnic struggles mentioned above. We maybe seeing the emergence of a nation - we don't know as the group does not seem to be clearly identified nor are its leaders. This is what makes this perplexing. Regardless, the attacks from 9 eleven onwards have tended to be about Islam and not fighting for the freedom of Afghanistan or Iraq or whatever.
Regardless, the Muslim believers around the world need to step up and isolate those killing in the name Islam. They need to fight from within. We see what happens when other nations or people came to the party.
If the answer is ring fence then so be it, let the Sunnis and Shiites work it out themselves in their own turf.
Blowin wrote:stunet wrote:
Blowin wrote:It shows how far to the left a lot of political conversation has drifted when commentators discussing France say that they hope that the 'Extreme Right doesn't react too harshly ".
Because in the past the extreme right has taken an open slather approach to retribution, something that only confuses and exacerbates the issue.
It's not a matter of poltical leanings but damage mitigation.
Well the French response to Muslims murdering cartoonists was to tweet hollow platitudes and parade with placards. I wouldn't call that too extreme . You think that exacerbated the situation?
That was what some of the French public did, what about the followers of Marine Le Pen? What about the Far Right? What about the government and intelligence agencies, do you know what they did? i.e what the political response was? I'd venture that you don't. So how do you know nothing happened in response.
It appeared you and others missed what I was trying to say earlier - granted it was brief and slightly cryptic. It would be a grave mistake for the Far Right to start ramping up the anti-Islam rhetoric and dog whisting their politics of hate. It will only alienate more people and contribute to the problem that no Western government can turn away from. You cannot kill an idea and closing your borders will do nothing (border defence ia a whole 'nother issue, and I defer to strict evaluations but it's a digression in this argument).
Urban alienation is a very real thing across all developed countries, many people - particularly male youths - feel lost irrespective of their race or creed. Start firing up the Far Right with their anti-Islam talk and the political face of Islam starts to look very appealing to those seeking a cause, something to inject meaning into their life. Not those youths coming across the borders but those already here.
That's why I called it damage mitigation. The tinder is among us, and the Far Right will be the spark to light it up.
southey wrote:Time would of proven another form of demise of the aboriginal status quo .
That's more than a bit misleading. There was no 'aboriginal status quo'. Difference does not equal stagnation. The invasion of Australia was every bit as violent and barbaric as we are seeing in the Middle East, arguably more so, and many people continue to live with that legacy. Statements like the above could easily be re-purposed to excuse the acts of, for example, Indonesia's current policies in West Papua.
Tonybarber raises interesting points. My experience in this space has been mostly based in SE Asia, which has shown that much of the fighting is cloaked in Islamic cloth and speech but stems ultimately from politics and power, and from long-standing ethnic and feudal tensions. I do believe a big element of what is happening with ISIS in the Middle East is driven by those same things. I'm basing that purely on reading, and I mostly read reports/stories from Middle Eastern writers. There is a stark difference in the content of reporting between writers of different nationalities: Syrian journalists see what is happening in the home country radically differently from a Western reporter driven to understand the foreign element of the conflict.
The building of a new nation, like you said, is very interesting. I wonder that if, like other groups such as Jemaah Islamiyah, the whole thing will collapse should their leaders be killed. VICE did a great documentary earlier last year on the functioning of the Islamic State and how life is conducted beneath it. It seemed orderly enough, though clearly oppressive. I haven't found anything in more recent months about what life is life under the caliphate (though it probably exists, just not in English). I can only hope that the state apparatus as deteriorated and that its appeal as 'the perfect state ruled by God' loses it sheen. I think you'd see less foreigners attracted to it in that case, though those motivated by violence would probably still go.
It's the foreign element that is most interesting, and the modern bits and pieces that surround it too (i.e social media). Foreign fighters are not at all uncommon during war: during the fighting in Afghanistan in the late 70's/early 80s, many fighters came from around the world to join, some with Islamic sympathies, others with nationalist/communist/anarchist bents. I wonder how differently that war would have panned out if today's media saturation and social media capabilities had existed?
The idea that people will bring their problems to Australia is a scary thought, and reasonable enough too. It scares me. What scares me, personally, much more is the thought of innocent people whose lives have been caught up between multiple warring parties fighting their fights, for whatever reasons, in the neighborhoods of ordinary people. I read a short quote from an elderly farmer, who reminded so much of my own granddad, from Syria the other day which I think is a useful reminder for those times when you forget that you do not need to be fighting a war to be affected by it - that for every person with a gun there are hundreds of ordinary people who become trapped in the violence of others (photo is in the first link). it's the thought of Australians collectively turning their back on people like the bloke below that scares me the most :
Ayman*, 82, (left) and his wife Yasmine*, 67, pose for a portrait in Nizip refugee camp, Turkey, on 4 December 2012. They fled their home in a rural area near Aleppo in August 2012 after their 70-year-old neighbour and his son, a shepherd, were brutally killed. Their home stands on 10,000 square meters of land covered with olive trees, grapes, nuts and fruits. Breaking into tears, Ayman described how nearby farms came under attack and homes were looted them and set on fire. "It is unbelievable that any human being can do this to another," he said.
"There is no place that compares to home," Ayman added. "But on the day we crossed the border, 19 people from our village were killed. Here, at least we feel safe. At least we haven't heard the noise of shelling for two months now. At home we lived like kings and queens. Now, we are refugees. What I miss most is my farm. I miss the olive trees. I don't even know if my house is still standing."
The most important thing Ayman was able to bring with him from Syria is his wife. "She's the best woman that I've met in my life," he says. "Even if I were to go back 55 years, I would choose you again."
See here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/unhcr/8493896547
http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/15555/what-do-you-miss-most-syrian-...
stunet wrote:That was what some of the French public did, what about the followers of Marine Le Pen? What about the Far Right? What about the government and intelligence agencies, do you know what they did? i.e what the political response was? I'd venture that you don't. So how do you know nothing happened in response.
It appeared you and others missed what I was trying to say earlier - granted it was brief and slightly cryptic. It would be a grave mistake for the Far Right to start ramping up the anti-Islam rhetoric and dog whisting their politics of hate. It will only alienate more people and contribute to the problem that no Western government can turn away from. You cannot kill an idea and closing your borders will do nothing (border defence ia a whole 'nother issue, and I defer to strict evaluations but it's a digression in this argument).
Urban alienation is a very real thing across all developed countries, many people - particularly male youths - feel lost irrespective of their race or creed. Start firing up the Far Right with their anti-Islam talk and the political face of Islam starts to look very appealing to those seeking a cause, something to inject meaning into their life. Not those youths coming across the borders but those already here.
That's why I called it damage mitigation. The tinder is among us, and the Far Right will be the spark to light it up.
Stu, I'll think you'll find that terrorism of this nature desires a backlash...it's what the perpetrators want. Think about it...bomb Syria - more justification for further terrorism. Push far right/anti-Islam politics in the West - more recruits for IS. It's win/win.
Far Right ....please show me which / where far right are chopping heads off ? Or even killing peoples of same religion ?
I doubt this is a left or right issue.
tonybarber wrote:Far Right ....please show me which / where far right are chopping heads off ? Or even killing peoples of same religion ?
That's an odd comment. If it's in reply to my post I didn't say or insinuate that was happening but was thinking of the best response so there's less bloodshed.
tonybarber wrote:Far Right ....please show me which / where far right are chopping heads off ? Or even killing peoples of same religion ?
I doubt this is a left or right issue.
I agree. The terms right and left are, for me, of little use in organizing groups anymore. For example, Robert Spencer is one of the biggest anti-Islam advocates on the planet and his recent conference barred entry to speakers who were openly anti-marriage equality. It's hard to situate events like that on any right/left spectrum.
If you go looking for acts of graphic violence you will always find something. Russia is home to some extremely violent anti-immigration, particularly anti-Muslim, violence. The famous Dagestan beheading videos were acted out by what you might call far-right anti-immigration/Islam nationalist groups, which were intended to strike fear into migrants from the Caucus. It featured all the hallmarks of the videos of the ISIS beheading videos with less production values. These kind of acts received little attention at the time, thought are pretty well known about the web.
What Stunet was referring to is real. Take a cursory tour of the regular haunts of anti-immigration types and you will find open threats directed towards people of color, people of different backgrounds, and Muslims. For a project I am working on I have been lurking about on the UPF Facebook page and I've read scores of direct threats of violence against 'any Muslims f*$ks' and the like, that if it were made by a Muslim against the West would make people squeamish. Enough people harbor fantasies about 'saving Australia' and 'taking back our shores', that it makes me pretty concerned.
If you revisit footage of the Cronulla riots you can see quite clearly what ordinary white Australian men will do when given a social license by media personalities and a mob behind them. I'll never forget the footage of a mob of blokes storming the train and aggressively beating two innocent people with dark complexions hiding on a train, only retreating after being strongly whacked with police batons. How far away was that act from being a case of a racist mob of Australian men beating people to death based on the color of their skin? I'm of the opinion such mob violence in Australia could be easily happen again should the fans be flamed by the likes of Hanson, Jones, Wilders and Bolt. Add groups with paramilitary-aspirations like the UPF to the mix, then god knows what could happen.
stu…I thought you said the 'the Far Right will be the spark to light it up.' This tends to imply a left / right issue ?? My thoughts are is that this is not a left / right issue. Truthfully, I am still trying to understand this. But what I seem to notice is that there seems to be (note seems) little effort of the Muslims to counter this. IS would have to be well organised, feed and armed. Granted its complex but geeez no one can turn a blind eye to it. One key point - you do not have to be 'far right' to distrust or dislike the Muslim religion and laws associated with it.
you don't have to be far right, but coincidentally it's mainly the moderates to far rights that are loudest about this stuff. as daddandan pointed out lefty anarchists can and will sign up for these conflicts but they are the minority.
I think the left/right thing is outdated, and as stephen fry said the other day, the modern left movement is disappointing to say the least, the way they shut down contemporary debates with PCness. they're losing their own traditional supporters with their over tbe topness about what we can and cannot say, which is why I bag them too.
but when it comes to nationalism the left/right thing seems unwavering. I hate to harp on about Israel but prior to 9/11 there was almost a peace deal thanks to clinton (and arafat) bush gets voted in and walks away from the deal, wants nothing to do with it. right leader in israel, it's all over. years of negotiations wasted, and the whole situation has been heading backwards ever since. everyone is an expert with an opinion post 9/11, but it's been a long road to here. just before 9/11 Israel was flattening Palestinian houses with tanks so the 'settlers' could build houses. just like the recent attacks, osama and co. said god was on their side to make it such a success. I'm agnostic about god, but karma is my fill in until I see otherwise. god or karma works in mysterious ways, but there sure seems to be evidence of something going on.
tonybarber wrote:stu…I thought you said the 'the Far Right will be the spark to light it up.' This tends to imply a left / right issue ?? My thoughts are is that this is not a left / right issue. Truthfully, I am still trying to understand this. But what I seem to notice is that there seems to be (note seems) little effort of the Muslims to counter this. IS would have to be well organised, feed and armed. Granted its complex but geeez no one can turn a blind eye to it. One key point - you do not have to be 'far right' to distrust or dislike the Muslim religion and laws associated with it.
True, there's an equally valid secular, left, enlightenment criticism of some versions of Islam as they are practised today.
tonybarber wrote:But what I seem to notice is that there seems to be (note seems) little effort of the Muslims to counter this. IS would have to be well organised, feed and armed. Granted its complex but geeez no one can turn a blind eye to it. One key point - you do not have to be 'far right' to distrust or dislike the Muslim religion and laws associated with it.
I can understand how it seems like that. But it's far from the case. Muslim leaders across the world are routinely directing their followers away from violence. This is done through peak bodies such as MUI (the Indonesian peak body Muslim organisation) declaring ISIS to be 'haram', through Muslim personalities and celebrities, down to individual kyai in mosques, pesantren, madrasas and so on. They can only do so much, and the people paying attention to these organisations are likely on their side as it is.
Australia has multiple groups working in this regard, again from the top to the bottom and back again. There are Islamic farming groups directing misled youth towards agricultural pursuits, skateboarding classes and all the usual youth-crime oriented programs that have been about for decades. The reason you're not likely seeing it is because it is not directed at you. Like much civil society and community sector programs, if you are not either a consumer of the program or part of the group that is funding it, you probably do not know it exists. Added to that is that most of the Muslim world speaks English as a second, third or fourth language. So unless you are reading Arabic, Farsi, Malay, Indonesian etc. you are unlikely to recognize it when you see it.
On top of that, there is the issue of ownership. Most Muslims do not feel that it is their place to call out ISIS. They consider it as abhorrent as the rest of us, and they feel as connected to that issue as us as well. When Cronulla happened many of us were ashamed of what people did in the name of Australians, but I didn't feel that I was somehow responsible for denouncing it, for apologizing on their behalf. That responsibility was forced upon me by my friends who were not Australian, much in the way many non-Muslims immediately turn to ordinary Australian Muslims whenever there has been an attack and expect them to do something about it, as if they somehow have more control over it than the anglo-Australian behind the deep fryer.
As for ISIS being well armed and fed, that is only sporadically so. Reading some of the reports coming from within the Islamic State's territories show that there are frequent food shortages, blackouts, health and sanitation issues and so on. Quite a number of wannabe ISIS members have hastily returned to their homeland after seeing the conditions that they would be expected to live in those areas. Much of their money has come from oil sales and from proceeds of crime such as looting and the selling of antiquities. That won't last forever. Plenty of people have theories about where they get their weapons from, with most fingers pointing at the USA and their decades of mismanaged wars in the region leaving behind stockpiles of easily stolen weapons. It's a pretty big dirty old mess, the roots of which go back for longer than I have been alive.
Totally agree on your last point though: having an informed opinion against any religion does not make you right wing at all. Having an uninformed opinion against something, though, generally makes you a bigot (not you, of course!).
Bear witness to the Sorry March and national reconciliation if you'd like an idea how people could respond to display solidarity.
Or alternatively witness the protests over the Mohamad cartoons in Australia and throughout the world as an example of how people can unite to express solidarity...though maybe not the most helpful example for your argument.
I think you'll find that after the Cronulla incident there was a Boxing Day sale rush of apologists attempting to simultaneously climb each other's shoulders in order to decry the loudest their thoughts on Australia's "shameful " behaviour .
The comments and opinion sections of the media were flooded for weeks.
As a History graduate (including Middle Eastern) I tend to take the longer view. I'd suggest going further back than colonialism when trying to interpret reasons for attacks like the tragic ones in Paris.
So I searched for a visual interpretation of this longer history that would be readily understandable, and found this:
Great..... here we go again...... Not gonna try to have a logical discussion, coz the first casualty of war is the truth......
Well at least the melodrama is unharmed.
Well this is true, stu........
Well, this little corner of the internet seems like an island of sanity amongst a sea of madness.
happyasS wrote:Sheepdog wrote:And when a ship bringing back this poison to Australia is hijacked by extremists, or when a dodgy dockworker with connections pockets a heap of crap for "dirty bombs" ( and it will happen), Flannery, Finkel, and all the other hardcore pro nuclear pro "end of the world from global warming" fucktards AND their braindead followers, AND the cretins who want to spend hours being elite on threads arguing crap over word definitions who wipe their hands over the imminent nuclear future will run and hide like rats down their fucking holes........
.....overly dramatic....but entertaining nonetheless
Sheepster, consider yourself, one of the family...
Dandan....maybe have a look at what the grand mufti stated re the Paris events. This does not sound to me as a leader trying to direct his followers away from violence. He tends to blame the current policies and attempts by authorities to manage this. What I'm suggesting is 'dob in a jihadi'. i believe the French are proposing to ban mosques in France which preach hatred. I suggest that Muslims must take the lead against ISIS. You mention 'ownership'. Where do you think support for ISIS would come from ?
Btw, Cronulla has nothing to do with what happened in Paris.
TB, still here?! Still spreading your particularly antiquated disease. I personally blame you for Cronulla and Paris.
Here's a book for ya. No, it's not the Qur'an, King James Bible, or your biographical "Who am I?" from 2001. But it may help us all if you pay heed:
https://bookofbadarguments.com/
Hang on, if you're not an idiot or idiot savant, TB, but the mastermind troll of all trolls, then this book IS your bible/operational manual!
Maybe all who engage with you in a serious manner should have a read instead!
Please, shats.... Can I have some more?
9/11 hijacker Hijacker Satam al Suqami's passport, slightly charred, was found in the
World Trade Centre rubble within hours of the hijackings... it's a miracle!!!! Think about it... We all saw the planes hit the twin towers.... Miracle I tells ya!!!!!
But wait!!!!!! There's more!!!!!
14 years later, a paris bomber detonates himself with a bomb vest.... Within minutes a PASSPORT is found nearby....... In tact...... It's a miracle x 2!!!!!!!! This news floods the world via every form of media...... Within hours, the hardcore right and European governments turn their focus on those pesky people escaping the war.... What a lucky break!!!!! And lets face it, all ground based suicide bombers wearing bomb vests always take their passport.... I'm sure he needed it... Probably to show the angels at the gates of paradise, even if it does help the French police get on the trail of the terror cell........
Yes those passports are made of tough stuff..... Perhaps it should be used in threading wetsuits... A shark wouldnt have a chance.......
we asked for more, and we got it!
Sheepy is on to it.
They were CIA plants Sheepy !
It's a false flag attack!
Maybe it never even happened and it's a plot between Murdoch and Jeb Bush to get us to vote liberal !
Maybe they'll pull a rubber mask off one of the terrorists to reveal Rebekah Brooks !
Nothing wrong in miracles boys, but sarcasm aside TB has a point... the Islamic community does need to take ownership and work with the godless ones to sort the shit out.
"His response to Bolt’s goading also showed another truth of our time: if you’re still calling on Muslims to denounce terror, you’re not listening to them. There’s not even a need to call on media-approved moderate Muslims to speak out. Even extremists will do it unprompted. Islamic State stands ostracised not only by hundreds of fatwas and countless statements, but also by other terrorist organisations.
“People of the region of Arab and Islamic countries who are living under the brutality of ISIS are the most aware and sympathetic of what hit the French nation last night,” Hezbollah head Sayyad Nasrallah said in a speech after the Paris attack. “We offer our deep condolences, solidarity, sympathy, moral and humanitarian stand to those innocent who are invaded by [their] barbaric criminal management.”
The catalogue of critics includes even the spiritual mentor of Islamic State’s own founder. “The kidnapping and murder of relief workers and neutral journalists have distorted the image of jihad. They make the mujahedeen look like murderers who spill blood blindly.” So said Abu Muhammad al-Maqdisi, perhaps the world’s leading theological architect of religious terrorism. ISIS then is the ne plus ultra, extreme among extremists, condemned even by the condemned."
Stu, sorry mate.
I just follow the Aussie media Fairfax etc and aren't seeing anything .
Surely the sympathetic Fairfax media would be presenting these Missives of remorse from Australia's Islamic membership ?
Letters to the editor ?
Then there is the response from the grand mufti......
Maybe you could point me towards the massive public protests that have been undertaken amongst our Muslim community.
You know the sort of spontaneous displays of solidarity that would arise under virtually any other circumstance in Australian society.
A bit of a foil to the " behead all infidels" crowd would be nice.
Look at the turn out at the anti - rascism rallies in Oz.
I suppose that all the showing of support from Muslim Australia is in your face cause it's happening in your neighbourhood and they're just so commonplace that they're not newsworthy......am I right ?
Cause I haven't seen one.
It will take a while but I commend this article for background on ISIS:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wan...
It's a well balanced article that looks at the peculiar collision of ideology and religion that this group represents, and goes some way to explaining why it resonates with many across the globe. If you want to understand the attraction of Sharia and the Kalifah a little more deeply the author interviews returnees and frustrated emigrees. There's some info on how it differs from Al Qaeda, and the inherent difficulty for muslims themselves face in "countering the narrative".
Anyway, take half an hour if you've got it.
I'm looking for another article that I read which explains why the groups has been able to achieve such success militarily, and transitioned to performing as a "state" so effectively. I will post it when I get it, but it outlines the somewhat unholy union between the religiously fanatical part of ISIS and the former military / police / security and intelligence elements of the former Baath regime. (yep, those guys that lost their jobs in 2003, joined the insurgency in 2006) Funnily enough those are the guys you don't hear about, who keep themselves off twitter and youtube, but are waiting for the self-destruction of the religious nutcases.
David Kilcullen's article "Blood Year" in the Monthly Quarterly Essay (can't find a full text link online except for the paywalled sites) was a really sound strategic assessment, and Waleed Aly's reply in the same publication breaks down the tendency to view Iraq / Syria as a single problem set.
Regarding Muslim condemnation and rejection of ISIS and terrorism....
http://www.lettertobaghdadi.com/
you mean like this?
Blowin thinks mainstream media would play or air moderate muslims condemning the attacks.... bahahahahahahahahaha......
bahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa.....
bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.........
Why do that? i mean, even one of the most hardcore muslim countries are calling it an attack against humanity.....
Blowin wrote:Stu, sorry mate. I just follow the Aussie media Fairfax etc and aren't seeing anything . Surely the sympathetic Fairfax media would be presenting these Missives of remorse from Australia's Islamic membership ? Letters to the editor ? Then there is the response from the grand mufti...... Maybe you could point me towards the massive public protests that have been undertaken amongst our Muslim community. You know the sort of spontaneous displays of solidarity that would arise under virtually any other circumstance in Australian society. A bit of a foil to the " behead all infidels" crowd would be nice. Look at the turn out at the anti - rascism rallies in Oz. I suppose that all the showing of support from Muslim Australia is in your face cause it's happening in your neighbourhood and they're just so commonplace that they're not newsworthy......am I right ? Cause I haven't seen one.
Blowin,
After every terorism incident the Muslim community walk around on tenterhooks, anxiety is heightened as they fear indiscriminate attacks. It's not imagined either, the stats bear it out. In this context perhaps even you could understand why they wouldn't wish to make themselves an obvious target? Honestly, I also wish they would make a bigger show of it, though my principles run against it. After all Christians aren't called out for every nutty thing the Westboro church does or when a pro-lifer with a gun pulls the trigger, but pragmatically it makes sense, though as mentioned it's a confusing and terrifying time so you can understand - or at least I can understand - why they wouldn't gather in the streets.
Anyway, for your benefit here's a short round up of articles starting with a couple of righteous Moosies in Toowoomba:
"Toowoomba Muslims condemn Paris terror attacks" - News Corp
"ISIS are no friend to Muslim'" - News.com
""Not in my name" - Muslims speak out against Paris attacks" - Telegraph.co.uk
"How Muslims around the world condemned the Paris attacks" - Washington Post
"Muslims Worldwide Denounce ISIS Terrorism." - Haaretz
What do you actually expect Blowin?
I spoke to one of my friends today, a student and head of the Indonesian Student Society and somewhat of a spokesperson for Muslims in my area, and what he had to say more or less echoed what Stunet has said above. In the past he has condemned such attacks and all it has done is opened the floodgates of rage and bigotry from the obsessive Bolt readers of the world. He still receives phone calls from an old Granny about how he better not be planning to build a mosque in Hobart. When he speaks up, he says, he makes himself a target. He is tired of being a target, and just wants to be able to get on with his PhD, thankful to be living in a safe part of the world and not be expected to apologize for the actions of people who have as much to do with you as they do him.
Where you will see Muslims is with the rest of Australians at anti-racism rallies, laying flowers after the Sydney incident etc. You know you have seen this. We have all seen this.
I imagine this feels safer, more inclusive, more 'right' for lack of a better word, than holding a 'Muslim only' march against terrorism.
Dandandan ,
don't want to harp on it but it has parallels . Basicly in the 18th century even the gentrified didn't have much in the way of well organised societies , what happened back then was attrocious by todays standards . But not that far from the norm for that period it was still nearing the end of barbaric times.
The parallels to this topic is you have one culture that is trying to " enlighten " everyone to modern civilised living . another that wants to retreat or in their case slow this movement forward of society and the modern rights of women in particular .
Sypkan and others have mentioned the shift in things since 9/11 , but in reality it was long before then . The african region with the slow spread of Islam south started encroaching on European's colonies that had reaped great reward for their endeavours of milking away modern minerals etc from the less developed and less organised natives .
So many attacks / issues were starting there well before Afghanistan . Lockerby ? was an early plane attack , an American consulate in Africa ...... the list is very long , its only with modern weapons that things have really started escalating . The Balkans themselves could have its own library of constant tensions going back hundreds / a thousand years.
My main point is really it should be the left that shoiuld be leading the charge to oppose such idealogy . As if anything the IS approach is furthest from the lefts core values .
When is someone going to address , how these guys are funding their war in Syria / Iraq etc .... I haven't seen that many new Toyota's since i was up in the Pilbara .
Obviously spoils of war have helped , but if they have gained an income from Oil ..... Whos' buying it ??? you have to have a market to sell to ..... who's going to put their hand up for that ? Will toyota start exploring where their cars are being traded through to the IS army ?
I only thought about this the other day , and remembered some conspiracy nut advocating that the TEPCO melt downs ( Japan ) were infact a targeted explosion by an Israeli state company , as the Japanese had supposed supplied spent Iranium or even knowledge to the Iranian Nuclear campaign .
Regardless of how out there , it did make you think . Mind you the same guy even said that the earthquake itself was triggered by a deep sea explosion , and when the resulting Tsunami failed to completely cripple the Japanese Nuclear infrastructure they switched to plan B and triggered earlier planted bombs which were instrinsic to the Israeli security company that was in control of the contracts .
Or is just simple that the IS war machine is very clever and always have their newest trucks in shot when spreading their Propaganda images .
Weird yes ?!?
And the real reason, besides the root cause of Bush/Howard/Blair invading Saddams Iraq for WMS (which were never there and Blair recently apologized), oh and them got saddam killed, and put in a puppet shiite reigime that went around slaughtering sunnis, which in turn gave birth to a sunni resistance, which morphed into Isis, who the USA traine to take down ASSAD in Syria???/ The real reason???? here.... Note the dates on the links....
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/08/201285133440424621.html
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/aug/30/syria-c...
Also, at least the French president had the balls to call what has happened "an act of war", and not terrorism..... Hats off to the man..... Seriously, hats off....... Because that's exactly what it is.... France started bombing Syria about 6 weeks ago..... And as we all know when you enter a brawl, you might cop a whack....
France commences bombing syria weeks ago;
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09/27/middleeast/syria-france-isis-bombing/
Lastly, here's a handful of countries not involved in this dirty 2 faced war.. I could list dozens;
Switzerland - 0 attacks on Syria, 0 terrorist bombings..
China - 0 attacks on Syria, 0 terrorist bombings..
Argentina - 0 attacks on Syria, 0 terrorist bombings..
Brazil - 0 attacks on Syria, 0 terrorist bombings..
South Africa - 0 attacks on Syria, 0 terrorist bombings..
Ghana - 0 attacks on Syria, 0 terrorist bombings..
Fiji - 0 attacks on Syria, 0 terrorist bombings..
Something in that for all of us......
Toowoomba - the progressive seat of Australia!
Blowin wrote:......Maybe you could point me towards the massive public protests that have been undertaken amongst our Muslim community....
.....know the sort of spontaneous displays of solidarity that would arise under virtually any other circumstance in Australian society......
cmon blowin that's very unfair.....first of all the attacks happened in France, so why should Australian muslims conduct themselves any different to ordinary Australians in the circumstances. should they hold some special memorial that only muslims attend?
second of all, and more importantly, where is the national "aussie" outcry everytime ISIS kills at a pop hundreds of muslims in their own countries. there are maybe very very small pockets of people that get interested, but it pales in comparison to the outcry and mourning over what has happened in france.
Here's one more for you Blowin! This time it's Jed Smith riding shotgun with the White Coats, the bearded blokes - Muslims - feeding homeless people in Sydney.
"The reticence of the Australian government and broader public to get behind Islam in this country is something he understands. Though he’s as baffled as anyone why Islam has been used to justify violence around the world.
“I don’t blame mainstream Australians for hating Islam. If you sit on your a*** watching TV and the Australian media all day, what else are you going to think?” he says, asking me, “You know Pauline Hanson? Well, I agree with her. She says get out of your glass house. Go and see the world. I agree. Come into the Mosque. See it for yourself. There is no threat,” he says."
This article ties in with what i was saying about the seperation of " old school " beliefs ,
and modern thinkers .
" http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wan... "
Its probably not for the " time poor " out there though .
southey wrote:This article ties in with what i was saying about the seperation of " old school " beliefs ,
and modern thinkers .
" http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wan... "Its probably not for the " time poor " out there though .
Interesting.....Our media portrays ISIS as a bunch of nutbars, and the atrocities and hits on 'soft targets' seem to back this up.
However they control a significant bit of dirt, they are ignoring the borders made up by the west and 'For certain true believers—the kind who long for epic good-versus-evil battles—visions of apocalyptic bloodbaths fulfill a deep psychological need.'.....how could a young disgruntled Muslim who feels he is being shafted by the whites not be impressed ?
Deepest Sympathies to the French , Have Relies in Paris.....Any organisations that support violence and death here should be shut down. locked up or booted out.