Guerilla War Carnage

Shocking...
How the hell do you realistically deal with this in the longer term?
Is this what's in store for Australia, sooner or later?
Have we found the limits of multiculturalism?

By the way, I think the heading is off-target and flatters these murderers - I see guerrilla warfare as "irregular warfare against a more traditional military" as opposed to shooting unarmed civilians.

AndyM wrote:

Shocking...
How the hell do you realistically deal with this in the longer term?
Is this what's in store for Australia, sooner or later?
Have we found the limits of multiculturalism?

Off course it will happen in Australia its not if but when could be next week could be ten to twenty years away but it will happen, you can stop some planned attacks but you can't stop them all, there is so many ways to take out a shit load of people all you need is the will to do it and not care about your own life, and there seems there is many who are wiling to give up their life in the name of what they believe.

I don't think its about multiculturalism at all, its more about our involvement in conflicts in the middle east and what we seem appear to them to stand for as westerners or western society in general, like it or not us westerners are arrogant following the USA in thinking we are some sort of global police sticking our noses in everyone else's business we are just asking to be fucked over and sooner or latter we will be.

I can't say I'm up to date with French foreign policy and military involvement but I don't see the French as being involved in Middle East (and beyond) conflicts anywhere near the extent of Australia (I believe Australia is making its own bed, so to speak) which leads me to think it's "what we stand for" as infidel westerners the has lead to these latest attacks in France.
In other words, if you get attacked like this and you're not one of the bullies like the U.S. and Australia, where does that leave you?
Circle the wagons and shut the doors?
When I ask if we've found the limits of multiculturalism, I'm really asking if the differences between the "Australian way of life" and muslims is just too profound.
This has been brewing in France for a long time, there's a huge rift between Arabs and the rest of France, at least from what I saw in the south.

Phillipines

China

Thailand

Canada

India

Croatia

Austria

Italy

Did I forget any ?

These are countries that have been attacked by Islamic terrorists that inconveniently didn't participate in any Middle East shit stirring.

Indonesia

Most of Indo is Islamic

Blowin wrote:

Phillipines

China

Thailand

Canada

India

Croatia

Austria

Italy

Did I forget any ?

These are countries that have been attacked by Islamic terrorists that inconveniently didn't participate in any Middle East shit stirring.

What point are you making Blowin?
Are you agreeing with me that you don't have to follow the U.S. to get attacked?
What's with your use of the word "inconveniently"?

Barenakedislam.com

Udo, everything on that site may be 100% true, but I can't take it seriously!

Just out of interest, I certainly don't have a soft spot for Islam but I'm loathe to see the rise of the far-right and rabid nationalism.

AndyM wrote:

Blowin wrote:

Phillipines

China

Thailand

Canada

India

Croatia

Austria

Italy

Did I forget any ?

These are countries that have been attacked by Islamic terrorists that inconveniently didn't participate in any Middle East shit stirring.

What point are you making Blowin?
Are you agreeing with me that you don't have to follow the U.S. to get attacked?
What's with your use of the word "inconveniently"?

We know they will obviously attack anyone they don't agree with but our involvement in middle east affairs will/has no doubt increased our risk of an attack, I'm personally surprised it hasn't already really happened and this can only come back to the fact we have very tight border control and counter terrorism measures, but its still a matter of time.

Im not a huge fan of any religion and Islam is one of my least favourites but to be fair labelling the whole of Islam with one brush is extremely naive, for a start there is a huge difference between Shia and Sunni with Shia generally being the more radical form although off course that doesn't make them all terrorist or supporters of ISIS.

And to ISIS Sunni muslims are also the enemy and their lives are also under threat many are killed even executed because they are Sunni and not Shia.

Here an interesting read http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/4-questions-ISIS-re...

BTW. Just for the record Indonesia is 99%+ Sunni with only 1 million being Shia in of a 250 million population.

The 85% thing is actually for the world, 85% of muslims in the world are Sunni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

Agreed.

But when "they" appear to be a loose and disparate bunch of groups all around the world, how do you deal with that?
Like a Hydra but they've barely got the same body.

indo-dreaming wrote:

AndyM wrote:

Blowin wrote:

Phillipines

China

Thailand

Canada

India

Croatia

Austria

Italy

Did I forget any ?

These are countries that have been attacked by Islamic terrorists that inconveniently didn't participate in any Middle East shit stirring.

What point are you making Blowin?
Are you agreeing with me that you don't have to follow the U.S. to get attacked?
What's with your use of the word "inconveniently"?

We know they will obviously attack anyone they don't agree with but our involvement in middle east affairs will/has no doubt increased our risk of an attack, I'm personally surprised it hasn't already really happened and this can only come back to the fact we have very tight border control and counter terrorism measures, but its still a matter of time.

Agree in full.

I forgot about Indonesia.

ISIS is Sunni.

It shows how far to the left a lot of political conversation has drifted when commentators discussing France say that they hope that the 'Extreme Right doesn't react too harshly ".

The country is literally under attack.

It might not be a squadron of Stuka dive bombers but it was a co ordinated, pre meditated attack that is sanctioned by and organised at the behest of a standing army.

Is it shameful nationalism to defend your country ?

Maybe if a few more fighting age Syrian males defended their homeland then the flood of immigrants to Europe would be curtailed .

Blowin wrote:

It shows how far to the left a lot of political conversation has drifted when commentators discussing France say that they hope that the 'Extreme Right doesn't react too harshly ".

Because in the past the extreme right has taken an open slather approach to retribution, something that only confuses and exacerbates the issue.

It's not a matter of poltical leanings but damage mitigation.

Stu , That means very little in the way of defence , if u were commenting on American politics I would agree . But I can't see any particular side of politics standing out when it came to your own borders defence .
Andy M , are conveniately or inadvertently overlooking the Frenchies' past in Northern /central African colonies when discussing that they are by far less involved than Australia .
This has become a thorn in their countries side in the way that it has opened them up to dual citizens that still hold a grudge against their past colonisers . Of which I'm sure that many of those incarcerated would be in this category . It has been fortunate for the Middle Eastern radicals that other similar religious nationals have sided and fought their cause ( if you could call it that ) . The English are not in much of a different boat , with perhaps the adding of some from more the western side of the sub continents .
Of all the people , it's strange how the Germans have evaded some of this backlash , perhaps their economic status has entrained some of its opponents to kneel before the alter of excess ?!
That or they once " reverse colonised will be the " new affable target " ! ?!

"Andy M , are conveniately or inadvertently overlooking the Frenchies' past in Northern /central African colonies when discussing that they are by far less involved than Australia ."
Southey that's clearly where it all started, I was looking for reasons why ISIS (if it was specifically them) would do it right now.
I read that the gunmen in the music venue were saying something like "this is what you get for interfering in Syria" so despite not hearing much about what the French are doing in Syria, seems like they're involved.

Stu, what do you mean by damage mitigation? Do you see this as being totally un-winable for the French and the only option is to minimise the effects?

No, I simply mean let cooler heads prevail. 

Andy , as far as I know there is no footage of said terrorists this time round . But cast your mind back to the footage of the Off duty English soldier being cut up on the streets of an English town . Those men weren't of Middle eastern decent , but acting in its name . " all with a cockney accent " . This maybe different , but the majority incarcerated in France would most likely be not , but again be of more a Northern/Central African lineage . Idealiogical support need not be geographical .
Stu , calm heads would re evaluate ones exposure to immigration from such combative zones . Sometimes humanitarian intakes don't be accepted as well by the recipients as the welcomers ! There are no easy answers except for stricter policies . Communal Globalisation will remain a myth , until all conflicts worldwide cease . Which we know even if left alone /not interfered with , will NEVER happen .

As a confirmed lefty, I'm coming on board pretty quick with "re-evaluating ones exposure".

All created by our government. Specifically John Howard. .
I voted Rudd for one reason. A complete withdrawl of troops. But it was all to late. Our decision to go into Iraq and murder it's murdering leader was the beginning of ISIS... ISIS would not exist if not for that. USA has not seen shit either. Now what?? The only hope is a GOD APPROACH.. Create schools hospitals and infrastructure in the conflict zones. Stop spending on arms and spend on the education and health of the masses.. The refugees headed for EU are all wearing a boot up the arse by the entire Islamic state. They don't want them and at the same time they see a soft invasion of the EU.. GOD HELP US ALL. While we are ruled by fools..

I reckon this would have eventuated regardless of Middle East provocation.

Western countries took advantage of unrest to enact action that would mask economic imperialism.

Islamic leaders desire the expansionism that this unrest provides an opportune justification for.

Thailand, Phillipines, China etc are the initial flash points for this expansionism.

freeride76 wrote:

ISIS is Sunni.

Actually your right i always thought they were Shia, wasn't very good example to use Indonesian then.

Fuck Sunni or Shia they fight hate and kill each other, a infidels we have no hope.

stunet wrote:

Blowin wrote:

It shows how far to the left a lot of political conversation has drifted when commentators discussing France say that they hope that the 'Extreme Right doesn't react too harshly ".

Because in the past the extreme right has taken an open slather approach to retribution, something that only confuses and exacerbates the issue.

It's not a matter of poltical leanings but damage mitigation.

Well the French response to Muslims murdering cartoonists was to tweet hollow platitudes and parade with placards.

I wouldn't call that too extreme .

You think that exacerbated the situation?

pretty obvious when Hollande says , France's response will be merciless , and that the attacks are a declaration of war." , get ready for a full scale intervention into Syria/ISIL , ground troops and all .

there is a big chance that the Kurds will be now recognized and brought in is allies , we can arm them , and then go to war with ISIL , and destroy them in their homeland.

I didn't know ISIL had a homeland. I thought they were trying to create one?

Blowin wrote:

I reckon this would have eventuated regardless of Middle East provocation.

Western countries took advantage of unrest to enact action that would mask economic imperialism.

Islamic leaders desire the expansionism that this unrest provides an opportune justification for.

Thailand, Phillipines, China etc are the initial flash points for this expansionism.

I think you're on the money on all counts there Blowin.

ISIL have created a caliphate which encompasses part of Iraq and Syria , we know who they are , where they are , and what their goals are , in destroying western civilization .

So lets go and get them and wipe them out!

I don't think it's that easy as witnessed by a taste of it in Sydney with the murder of Curtis Cheng. By its own very nature its constantly morphing and changing, like trying to put out spot fires. Sure the Caliphate is the raging bushfire but the tinders are blowing far and wide.

I agree Zen, that the tinders are blowing far and wide , as there is global problem with marginalized minorities everywhere , Australia being one of the perpetrators in regards to Indigenous/Refugees/immigration , which ends up becoming racism , which in turn destabilizes our young culture.

But , when you have a group of radicals like IS , and they seem to be going from strength to strength ,this creates a false sense of security and validation of radical views .

the fact that ISIL have claimed responsibility , and want war , well we spend trillions of $'s pa on arms and new tech weapons, what for??

lets get boots on the ground, back up with every tech weapon and dismantle ISIL , and not give them a platform to sell/promote their hate and death policies to the western world.

AndyM wrote:

Agreed.

When "they" appear to be a loose and disparate bunch of groups all around the world, how do you deal with that?
Like a Hydra but they've barely got the same body.

The concept that I struggle with here, is we're talking about "radicals" and "hate and death policies" - I think with a bit of reflection, those terms can easily describe Western imperialism and policies.
Problem is, in reality it's pretty much pointless to delve into it and it becomes us vs. them because they're going to do what they're going to do, regardless of our political or social persuasion.

Problem is, in reality it's pretty much pointless to delve into it and it becomes us vs. them because they're going to do what they're going to do, regardless of our political or social persuasion

So the only answer is not to give them a homeland , and destroy the ISIL Caliphate !

It's a cut throat world out there Sharkman!

AndyM wrote:

It's a cut throat world out there Sharkman!

Is that an intended pun?

prothero wrote:

Our culture has made mistakes for sure, hands up who voted to go into Vietnam, Afgaanistan, Iraq. Syria is now fucked up and thanks to posts on this site I am a bit more aware of some of the dirty politics behind this particular shit fight. Take out ISIS ? im not opposed to that, but as sharkman says the tinders are blowing far and wide. I understand that some inmates in prisons in Oz are finding ISIS a worthy band wagon to jump on. Then on the outside they have guys holding meetings of hundreds of people saying they want 'Sharia law, Jews should be destroyed and the Oz government is treating Muslim people unfairly'....Do we give them what they want and have parallel communities in Oz ? or do we say No and face potential negative consequences ?.......but then we called all show some flexibility and negotiate......but can you negotiate with those who advocate terror ?

have no doubt about the history of the ME and the interference of western colonial powers in the region have been partly to cause the current destabilization of the ME.

But , for the first time there is actually a target , a homeland/base , surely this latest incident gives the west a moral reason to go to war with ISIL , and this means troops on the ground.

If ISIL can be defeated and exterminated , surely there will be less people drawn towards what ISIL stands for ?

The West has no business in the Middle East, now or ever.

Arabs are tribal and they have tribal homelands that go back in history centuries before the West drew false lines on a map that closely resembles the countries we know now.

What is happening now reflects the past and shows the future unless the West learns quickly.

Europe was divided on ethnic grounds long ago but only after long and brutal fighting, like what we saw in Bosnia some 20 years ago. This is what is happening in the Middle East right now. Ethnic and religious divisions fighting over the spoils.

A very close friend travelled throughout the Middle East before all these troubles started back in the 1970s and he put it to me this way, Arabs are gentle people but some of their leaders are in the dark ages when it comes to thinking through the consequences of their values/actions. At the time I thought he was wrong, now I understand.

The West should get the fuck out and stay out. Defend Israel, accept refugees, fund humanitarian aid in places like Lebanon but that's it. It also should truly accept the Arabs already living in the West and treat them with respect and offer the disaffected young hope with proper education and jobs.

interesting you talk about drawing lines on maps floyd then mention defending israel.

while defending Israel might be non negotiable for some, the west's overzealous defending of Israel's actions could be seen as the bulk of the problem.

but people don't like to talk about that

Israel is the elephant in the room , and just trying to say leave the arabs to deal with their own crap , just tries to simplifies a very complex situation.

the ME /oil fields was the engine room for the wests economies for the last 50 years , we left a mess with all those lines being put on maps and nations created , and people divided. we turned those camel riders into some of the richest people in the world , who now have money and power not seen for a couple of millennium.

so we can't just abandon the ME , we are players on a global stage , lets start cleaning up the mess!

"It also should truly accept the Arabs already living in the West and treat them with respect and offer the disaffected young hope with proper education and jobs."
Floyd, as Prothero said, it has to work both ways.
I can accept being in Egypt and having my girlfriend spat at and hissed at on a daily basis (yes she was totally covered including a head scarf) but when the Arabs in southern France do the same thing and local white females are feeling very intimidated walking around (this was in Nice, I expect this is common everywhere), clearly there's a problem.
And Israel is totally culpable perpetuating problems in the M.E.

The vast vast majority of Arabs living in the West are law abiding decent people just wanting to get on with their lives but the tiniest minority do give the rest a bad wrap.

I accept Israel was also a country created by drawing lines on a map and yes much of their actions (land grabs and sledge hammer military reactions to Arab unrest) is also a problem. Obama has started the process of winding back the West's unequivocal support but there is more to do.

But with a history of the WW2 genocide what are the Israelis to do? with their backs to the sea surrounded by Arab hostile nations many lead by total nut cases its a complex issue that of Israel's military actions.

That friend of mine said a chilling thing once ... he said Israel has nuclear weapons and if the Jews can't live in Israel no-one else will. Think about it.

I rhink the world has ro draw a line in the desert sands and say enough is enough. Israel stops their slow invasion of palestine, and gives up the occupied territories in Iidexchange for the calling of a truce and an asking of gunuine goodwill from all moderate Muslims to slow this race to the bottom

then the world has a chance to work together to stop this unwinable war.

until the USA acknowledges the findings of the world's demicratic court, ie. the UN, which overwhelmingly votes in favour of the above this 'war' will never end, because the west's actions seem unfair and uncredibly bias to this little agnostic white boy, so one can only imagine how unfair it seems to any reasonably devout muslim from any number of countries surrounded by America's wars.

even many Israeli's think their radical countrymen are out of line, radicals and terrorists are on both sides, you have to sort out your own allies before you can expect behavioral improvements from your enemies