What's what?

fitzroy-21 wrote:

You need to remember one thing though Floyd. They can buy the land, they can own the land, but they can NEVER take the land or remove it.

Sorry Fitzroy, can't say I agree with that line of thought ..... just thinking about the long game cultural dominance and/or erosion history can teach us and what any native Hawaiian would think about being landless in their own islands or for that matter any honest speaking AU Aboriginal would say ...... we haven't reconciled the dispossession of land yet and here we are flogging it off ....... while we are geographically in asian we are not an asian country ..... i'm not at all racist about this, i welcome investment but have very strong views about not flogging off ownership

Fair enough Floyd, this is the view of quite a few station managers etc through Qld and the NT, which made me rethink the line of thought of "their taking our land". This is also the view of a couple of traditional owners I spoke to in the NT.

Speaking of, there is large tracks of land through Kakadu and Arnhem that are off limits to everyday Australians. Not culturally sensitive or anything like that, we just aren't allowed there. How do you feel about that?

I want to respect other people and their culture whenever I encounter it even if I have personal opposing views so I'm okay with the question you ask, its not my role to question but to try to accept and understand as best as I can given the relative privileged up bring and life I lead here in AU .... that all sounds noble, not saying I don't mess up, I do, but as I said I try as best as can

And so it begins.

Interesting to see the sway the corporate media's power will hold this time round. Ditto for the cowed & chicken-shit, forelock-tugging ABC.

No doubt what horse they'll all be backin'.

Then there's this?? WTF!?

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/commen...

Does the lunar right hate Truffles THAT much? You bet you are, you bet I am.

Want to make a difference this election? Vote independent in the senate.

Vote Palmer United. You'll get paid a nickel or dime for your vote.

That doesn't even make sense, Truffle Butter. Hang on, why am I even surprised by that fact? Now if it DID make sense...well, as some foreign sheila once said, where there's hope, there's life.

Shatner'sBassoon wrote:

“Who do you trust to keep the economy strong, and protect family living standards?” M. Turdstill (quote).

Hmmm, whose family?

"Overwhelmingly, the main issue for the campaign will be who's got a plan to successfully transition our economy to a new one to produce better jobs, more jobs and better-paying jobs." Turdstill again.

Wait, is he referring to jobs for Australians?

Hmmm. Mal the Transition Vamp, the 'cherry' atop the dung heap? Or Beige Shorten (who?) and the LABOR TEAM?

I've heard the term 'better economic managers' bandied about...hmmmm.

Corporate media and the de-fanged ABC be damned. Do your online homework, comrades...this election is bloody important. Perhaps the most important one in decades. What kind of Australia do we want to 'transition' to?

interesting set of rankings....especially when you consider howard inherited a 100 billion dollar deficit and turned it into a 20 billion dollar surplus by 2007. that came about due to massive revenues from a hot economy. so how did australias ranking drop so much when its economy was going gangbusters.

The thing about the independents voting down the ABCC legislation and therefore giving Abbott/Turnbull the DD election trigger is that the Liberals don't understand why the independents would do that and put at risk their $200,000 pa salary ........ i.e. they don't understand why a politician would put principle before political and personal interest .............. says absolutely everything the electorate needs to know about the conservatives and why more not less independents in the senate would be a good thing for ordinary folk.

as you say floyd, it really is a credit to the independents, and a stain on that dirty greens senate deal aimed to reduce the independents. geez even that preference fluke, ricky muir, V8 bogan man, who the political class wrote off, has contributed more than the established parties and their career politicians

what amazes me is, most of the independents lean more right than left, and LNP still couldn't get the abcc thing through, a total unwillingness to negotiate on their behalf, a cynic would say pure gaming of the system, I hope it backfires, I'll even put up with a shorton everything PM to see turdball suffer in his own manipulations

but dont worry folks, turdball is onto it, it's all about the economy, because it's a couple of union goons holding the economy back, not the billions lost to tax evasion

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/apr/20/tax-report-reveals...

I really cannot believe all this is coming out, combined with the panama papers, and the Australian public can't muster more than a "hey that's a bit wrong"

floyd complained the public weren't protesting Abbott's budget, well in my eyes this shit is way worse and there's barely a murmur in oz.

is it because most of us are too entrenched in the system with our own little dodgy negative gearing and the like tax practices?....I think so

corbyn is right, every politician should have to make all their dealings transparent

and, as the CEDA guy said (a baby boomer) in one generation he has become 5 times more wealthy than his father, yet all this 'wealth' is starting to appear unsustainable as now we are putting it all on credit for future generations to pay.

something (someone's) got to give

hey sypkan, I said maybe 2 years ago on one of these forums we asleep Straylans need a large dose of French nationalism about us before we take shit like tax evasion by multi-nationals with the seriousness it deserves. Stu and a couple of others agreed but that was it ........ doze on.

........ but here we are having an election on "unions holding the economy to ransom" ....... what, are we back in the time-warp again? ........

I reckon Labor ought to drag out every anti union ad they can find that the conservatives have created since 1666 BC and put them together into an election ad to show the hollowness and hypocrisy of their pathetic little argument ............ its all just an extension of that "communist threat" the neocons used in Menzies' time ........... no policy just scare campaigns.

Faced with the same ole shit Hawke laughed all this off very effectively saying he thought the reds were under the beds ....... humour is the way to go coz us Stralyans love a good piss take.

BRING BACK KEATING

happyasS wrote:

interesting set of rankings....especially when you consider howard inherited a 100 billion dollar deficit and turned it into a 20 billion dollar surplus by 2007. that came about due to massive revenues from a hot economy. so how did australias ranking drop so much when its economy was going gangbusters.

Amazing, huh? Being the LNP have got 'economic management' in their DNA or something. Reckon they got that out of their stool sample.

Seen this no doubt ?

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/hey-big-spender-ho...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/15/peter-costellos-fiv...

Though we must take into account that analysis came from that notorious hot-bed of leftist conspiracy, the IMF.

Erm.

Ahhhh, the Howard/Costello glory daze! Oh, to be relaxed and comfortably numb again. Waiter, I say boy, bring me my Pimms, you know how I like it (with no penalty rates).

Some reading for the bury the head in the sand, but leave your arse hanging out brigade:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-27/verrender-think-whitlam-ruined-our...

And about the LNP economic fairy-tales?

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/1359493/the-truth-about-howards...

https://www.themonthly.com.au/issue/2007/october/1274939034/andrew-charl...

The second one is a doozy!

to me labor and liberal are a bit of yin and yang.....one saves while the other one spends....the reality is the country needs both.

the main problem I see is not which party is in power but rather lack of vision and leadership on a range of issues. the narrative in Australia is too much about economics and the dollar. all other measures of a successful society have fallen by the wayside. individuals are as much to blame, and politicians have no cards to play anymore because of it. we live in such a tight world economy where countries play eachother for % points. tiny poofteenths of margins. politicians are forced to tow the line or get booted. our prime ministers only get single terms these days. jesus, talk about cutthroat.

"One saves while the other one spends". Huh? What does this even mean?

And who's who in THAT zoo?

If you wish to use economic management as a criteria then have a look at
http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/bp1/html/bp1_bst10-04.htm
Then you can see from the historical list of governments:
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliam...

Just don't argue with the unions.

Ha ha. Care to explain what those tables mean, Truffle Butter? Sorry, what you think they mean?

Help us out, comrade.

tonybarber wrote:

If you wish to use economic management as a criteria then have a look at
http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/bp1/html/bp1_bst10-04.htm
Then you can see from the historical list of governments:
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliam...

Just don't argue with the unions.

Now that was illuminating Tones .............

You see Tones no side of politics has it right or wrong all of the time and anyone that thinks that believes in the tooth fairy.

In fact Tones all this talk of the economy, we spend you save, always better or worse, blah blah misses the point .... still awake Tones? ........ its about your values, about the fire in your guts about what sort of country you want not only for you but for the next guy ........ its about figuring that out and then the policies will flow and from that budgets and the economy ....... putting the economy first fucks up the debate.

As I said earlier Labor or Liberal don't matter, its all shit only the depth changes, under Turnbull its still very deep coz he did a deal to get the job with the ultra right ......... so Tones, WAKE UP, what do you stand for?

4.05 update .... momentum is building for the much needed RC into banks ........ hey sheepster still reckon Bilbo has no chance?

happyasS wrote:

to me labor and liberal are a bit of yin and yang.....one saves while the other one spends....the reality is the country needs both.

the main problem I see is not which party is in power but rather lack of vision and leadership on a range of issues. the narrative in Australia is too much about economics and the dollar. all other measures of a successful society have fallen by the wayside. individuals are as much to blame, and politicians have no cards to play anymore because of it. we live in such a tight world economy where countries play eachother for % points. tiny poofteenths of margins. politicians are forced to tow the line or get booted. our prime ministers only get single terms these days. jesus, talk about cutthroat.

Happy if you're saying what I think you're trying to say with that first sentence, then you're way off track.

That myth is history. The coalition are the kings of spending on the middle (and upper) class in the form of tax breaks and the like.

Can't argue with the rest of what you're saying, it's well-trodden ground .
Suffice to say, the young kids are going to have a real tough time of it in the future both financially and socially, best of luck to them.

And Antonio Barbareno, I'm not real bright and I'm a bit pressed for time, you'll have to help me with those graphs as well.

you might be right andy....im sure I saw some charts once somewhere that pointed to liberals being better at balancing the books.....that is not entirely the same as saying "spending" I suppose...so maybe that's where ive misinterpreted.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/02/13/myth-of-coalition-govts-howard-the-b...

Happy, I'm not saying that the Labor party are necessarily great financial managers but we need to look at the myth that the Coalition are the great book-balancers and assess the facts.

It would be a shame (and a mistake) to vote for them purely on that belief.

Check out the link, the IMF are pretty unbiased as far as I'm concerned.

Wowee. That link above is hammering the same myth-busting stuff I posted just above that. And that the Shatnerd did as well. Must be all too much reading for the time and link averse.

Therein lies part of the problem. 3 word slogan, anyone?

you do understand the word bias, don't you?

Stephen Koukoulas
Stephen Koukoulas is a Research Fellow at Per Capita, a progressive think tank. Between October 2010 and July 2011, he was economic policy advisor to the Prime Minister Julia Gillard. He has spent three years heading Global Research for TD Securities in London and spent two decade covering the Australian economy for Treasury, Citibank and TD Securities.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stephen-koukoulas/2836682?pfm=ms

I'm not saying the myth of liberals being better for the economy is true, because abbott and turnball have well and truly crushed that, but most of those links mean little, it's just either side giving their version of events

So you guys name call and belittle TB who in my opinion is usually polite and respectful in return? He provided two Oz goverment links which were non-partisan showing historical election results dating back to federation and our countries economic performance over the last four decades in black and white. Call it our nations P&L for want of a better term. Nothing more.

You guys provide links from such esteemed websites and publications such as news.com.au or the Illawarra Mercury, the increasingly, rather than neutral, one sided ABC or a left leaning sponsored think tank. What were you expecting them to write? As long as it supported your argument.

I notice and Floyd in particular, nobody has mentioned that Turnbull wants to wind back tax concessions for high earners and lower the tax thhreshold way lower than Labor had planned. No mention of that? Sure, political grandstanding in an election year, but we didn't see that with Rudd/Gillard did we? They all bloody well do it. Negative gearing? No party will touch that. RC into the banking sector? Guarantee if Labor were in power right now you wouldn't hear boo. Whimpers and sniping about boat people and off-shore processing? No real policy alternatives forthcoming there except from the Greens and they're pretty quiet on that too. Privatisation of government assets? Per-lease, both have been selling the family China to the Japs and China for three generations now, only who ever is in oppostion at the time wins the right to bleat about it. And so on and so on.......

I have a question that I've asked before and never received an answer to:-

As an Australian how has your lot in life or those around you been affected when either party was in power? Have you prospered more under one or the other?

For the record, I am not a privately-schooled silver spooner. I'm a working class shit kicker who's been working non-stop since I was fourteen. I am fortunate enough to come from stock who knew what it was like to be poor and the way out of that was to work hard and count your pennies.

Gives me the shits sometimes, fucking Aussies, get out (and away from the coast) and see what real poor people have. 4/5's of fuck all.

I haven't been commenting on political matters here for a while zen as I have other things going on in my life but I'd like to respond to your question:- "As an Australian how has your lot in life or those around you been affected when either party was in power?"

I'm recovering right now from surgery I had yesterday to remove an egg sized tumour from my thigh. I noticed a lump there about 18 months ago but figured it would go away in time. So by the middle of last year it was getting bigger and uncomfortable so I went to my doctor. He sent me for a scan immediately.

The guy doing the ultrasound said it was probably a knot in my muscle so I wasn't too concerned. I made a few nervous jokes doing the Arnie Swartzenagger impersonation "IT'S NOT A TUMOUR".
When I went back to the doctor to get the results the first thing he said was "It's a tumour".

So I got on the waiting list to get the thing removed.

At this stage all the scans and appointments had cost me nothing. These are the type of scans the current government wanted to remove from the Medicare schedule payments and potentially cost hundreds of dollars. That cost may have affected my decision to go ahead with the scan?

So I had to wait several months for to get into surgery in the public system, didn't get to choose my surgeon (I don't know any so didn't bother me) but it's done now it looks like the tumour is benign thankfully.

My point to this rant is that on several occasions in my life the Medicare system that Labor introduced and has defended from continual attack by successive Coalition governments has had a positive impact on my life by allowing me to preserve my health into middle age and my treatments have not been dictated by the size of my bank balance.

For this reason alone I urge any undecided voters to think carefully before you risk the the Coalition with your vote. If your life circumstances change, whether though a health crises, you lose your job or have your pay and conditions cut, care for the environment or are concerned seeing policies which discriminate against minorities in our society put the Coalition last when you vote.

Zen, fired up big time. Regardless of anyones opinions and rhetoric, the great thing is that you yourself decide where you put your vote. This in itself is a win because you have been true to yourself and made a stand for what you think is the best outcome for you and others. Trying to change others is like trying to catch the wind, fruitless, especially if it seems that all they do is make wind themselves!!!!!
Good for the turbines anyway. Lighten up, for gods sake it's not that feecking important, but your state of mind and being is!!!!!

Thanks Yorkes, i appreciate you taking time to answer.

And if memory serves me correctly, when I did ask that same question a long time ago, you did provide an answer but you were the only one.

Despite what people think, I'm not a dyed in the wool conservative. I distrust politicians on all levels from both sides. I have been the beneficiary of Australias wonderful healthcare system as well.

I just wrote a couple of big paragraphs in my own elementary way trying to address your points on wages, environment, minorities etc and just deleted it. Basically I think the track record Australia has is pretty good when you compare it to the rest of the world, not perfect but streets ahead of other countries and behind in some others. Neither party can pat themselves on the back and take full credit for what Australia has become. Nor do I think it's a fight between light and dark, good and evil, us versus them. Australia is awesome and beautiful and still lucky. Basically, I think politics reflects human nature and I think it is within a humans nature to want what is best for them and their kids.

As soon as people resort to name calling to discredit someone though, you've lost me in an argument hence what prompted me to post above and why I usually stay out of it anyway.

Anyway, surf crappy back to work. Have a good one Yorkes.

All good Dave. Nice to see you drop by.

Fair point York and of course your outcome. Credit needs to go to Whitlam's government for that. If you remember some states did already have free medical but it was not national - thats what Whitlam did. As costs were rising both Labor and LNP introduced rebates and levies for higher income earners. You can add to this the PBS system (brought in earlier) which is essential for most on critical medical issues. Truthfully, I am in a worse health situation than yourself. At this stage, the government has put more of the drugs I need on PBS. I am not aware of any 'risks' that LNP plan. I would have thought that during the Howard years we would have seen major changes to Medicare - I am not aware of any.

Hello Zen,

Personally, I have greatly benefited from both sides of politics and that is how it should be because politics in this country, regardless of who was in power, was played in the middle ground until Abbott/Turnbull.

I could go into great detail about how Hawke/Keating and Howard made my life a whole lot easier but is some ways that would be distasteful.

There is a line in The Thin Red Line .... "I see a different world" that makes the hair on the back of my neck rise every time I think of it, its doing it now. I'm also thinking about the great words of President Kennedy and Martin Luther King ........ you see Zen, at my core I believe politics should be about values, about ideals about making the place better for citizens and people in general and less about budget surpluses and deficits.

So to me, I ask who are the politicians who will make my life and the life of my neighbour better? So I want a community with properly funded education and healthcare and safety nets and I want equity in taxation and wages and I want politicians who help those things. I am not a complete socialist because equally I believe in reward for effort.

......... so when I look at Labor and Liberal and I listen to what they say typically I value what Labor have to say more but I am increasingly disillusioned with all mainstream parties including the greens because of such things as political donations, lack of transparency and the role lobbyists play overriding the voice of the electorate.

Floydo, I totally concur with everything you're saying, especially the last bit. Truth be known, I don't know where I stand these days. The problem is I can't hear what either of them are saying. It's like an endless bout of shadow boxing, neither ever seem to land a punch and they just keep dancing in circles.

I'm probably the hardest vote to buy- The disillusioned optimist.

zenagain wrote:

So you guys name call and belittle TB who in my opinion is usually polite and respectful in return? He provided two Oz goverment links which were non-partisan showing historical election results dating back to federation and our countries economic performance over the last four decades in black and white. Call it our nations P&L for want of a better term. Nothing more.

You guys provide links from such esteemed websites and publications such as news.com.au or the Illawarra Mercury, the increasingly, rather than neutral, one sided ABC or a left leaning sponsored think tank. What were you expecting them to write? As long as it supported your argument.

I notice and Floyd in particular, nobody has mentioned that Turnbull wants to wind back tax concessions for high earners and lower the tax thhreshold way lower than Labor had planned. No mention of that? Sure, political grandstanding in an election year, but we didn't see that with Rudd/Gillard did we? They all bloody well do it. Negative gearing? No party will touch that. RC into the banking sector? Guarantee if Labor were in power right now you wouldn't hear boo. Whimpers and sniping about boat people and off-shore processing? No real policy alternatives forthcoming there except from the Greens and they're pretty quiet on that too. Privatisation of government assets? Per-lease, both have been selling the family China to the Japs and China for three generations now, only who ever is in oppostion at the time wins the right to bleat about it. And so on and so on.......

I have a question that I've asked before and never received an answer to:-

As an Australian how has your lot in life or those around you been affected when either party was in power? Have you prospered more under one or the other?

For the record, I am not a privately-schooled silver spooner. I'm a working class shit kicker who's been working non-stop since I was fourteen. I am fortunate enough to come from stock who knew what it was like to be poor and the way out of that was to work hard and count your pennies.

Gives me the shits sometimes, fucking Aussies, get out (and away from the coast) and see what real poor people have. 4/5's of fuck all.

Let me guess, (not very) Zen, you jotted that response out in a white-hot blaze? I've got a bit under the skin, huh? Let me also guess, you didn't read any of our postings in full?

Come on, you're being very un-Zen, dude.

Remember, the "emotions are not skilled workers".

Thanks for your mini-biography too, but really, comrade, not necessary. I assume it was included to bolster some authenticity, that you know what you're on about, that you're not a rusted-on cheerleader, "I know what it's really like in the trenches 'cos I've been there" etc etc etc

Having said that, with what you provided, you sound like your cliched self-loathing, downward-envying, "pulled yourself up by the boot-straps" 'working class Tory'. Were you one of the Howard & Costello era's 'aspirationals' by any chance?

Anyway, I like your question. It's revealing.

"As an Australian how has your lot in life or those around you been affected when either party was in power? Have you prospered more under one or the other?"

When you say "those around you", you mean family and friends I take it?

How's this re-wording of the question...How has Australia, the community as a whole, been affected when either party was in power? Who has prospered or been punished more under one or the other?

Took some stuff out. 'I', 'me' and 'mine' isn't the focus. Also added the word 'punished'.

Actually, this points up the differences, however minute, between both parties, the LNP coalition and the Labor party, between 'left and right', between both their ideological underpinnings. Because there are ideological underpinnings, and thus differences, even now.

At its most base, it is collectivism vs individualism, the rights of community vs the rights of the individual. Remember, this is at base. Very simple and simplistic.

Government, the State, and the role they play and how they even see their role differentiates both parties. Again, at base. Their policies reflect this.

I'd contend these differences are probably getting stronger than they've been in a generation. The gulf between is getting wider as the gulf between the have-mores and have-nots gets wider.

Small government, privatization of State services, selling State assets (who owns them ultimately?), de-regulation. Hmmmmmm.

For me, an easy test when comparing two policies is to decide which one does the most good for the most people. And especially those good people that need that good help the most. Note I say people. Corporations aren't people. People are not merely economic units, and/or consumers, and/or clients, and/or commodities either. Unlike Thatcher, I believe there is such a thing called 'society'. Community exists.

I tend to judge a Federal policy's value based on the effect it will have on the entire Australian community.

I'd like to believe it is why the 2014 budget was roundly rejected by the Australian community. It negatively effected more members of the community that it benefited. The community of citizens. People.

As for TB, well, he throws his little non-sequitur troll bombs, and then just toddles off. He is either 'special' or an A grade level troll genius. You be the judge, comrades.

Seeing he won't explain whatever he thought those figures showed, maybe you can, Zen? While you're there maybe you can chuck some light on his parting wisdom "Just don't argue with the unions" too?

Anyways, yeah, well, that's just, like, my opinion, man.

Cheers comrade.

@zen, I'll add two things to my earlier comments, on reflection.

One ......... politics was played in the middle ground by both parties until the preselection of Liberal candidates started in Howard's time that pretty much saw the exclusion of true "liberals" from the Liberal Party. Since Howard the Liberal Party has truly moved to the right. It increasingly resembles a conservative party with elements of ultra conservatism. This shift saw for example Abbott's 2014 budget, much of which remains on the legislative agenda under Turnbull, and now a hamstrung Prime Minister beholden to the known 30 ultra conservative politicians in the Liberal Party. Turnbull a man who once stood for tough action of climate change and gay marriage how a shell of his former self all because of the deals he did with the ultra right to get the job.

For previously stated reasons this shift to the right pretty means I can never agree with that side of politics.

Two ...... Tony Barber. The master of the aside defending coal, Abbott Point, nuclear power over solar and lobby groups and pouring water on the NSW ICAC hearings exposing corruption in the NSW Liberal Party.. Don't mind opposing views at all, there is more common ground on all this probably than any of us think, but as the Turk points out he is mostly an annoying little prig.

TT, I, me, we, the royal we, you- how collective of you compadre, first to man the tongs at the company sausage sizzle I'm guessing?.

And sorry, you're confusing me with a downward looking Howard Costtello aspirational. The only direction I was looking at back then was the next part of the world I'd take myself to. You might say it helped to shape/skew my world view.

I didn't have to pull myself up by the bootstraps, my oldies put in the hard yards for that. They were poor, not me. Self-loathing? Ha, only if I wasn't so fond of myself. I actually love work and even moreso now that I work for me. It 's a bit scary knowing that a few people depend on me for their livelihood but I'm doing my best.

You can re-word my question anyway you like and as I haven't lived in Oz for over a decade I'm open to the answer. Personally, my union experience has not been a good one, when I needed them the most I was left with the sound of criickets chirping. You say companies aren't people, that's so true but last time I was in Oz I met a few people who actually worked for some of them. They had nice cars, new-fangled smart TV's, some were even so well off they could choose NOT to eat meat. Can you believe that? And generally they seemed to enjoy each others company.

And I'm sure you could agree, that rug really tied the room together.

PS Tell me how you've been punished? I'm intrigued.

Zen,

Tony Barber's two links unfortunately contributed nothing to the discussion - no offence to the guy but I'm not going to print them both out, put them side by side to reconcile them and wade through the data.

My link to the Crikey article was indeed the first thing I could cherry-pick to prop up my side of the argument. If Happy comes to a discussion with the "feeling" that the Coalition is the better financial manager, what do you expect.

FFS, these clowns are (mis)managing the country, at least have something to back up an opinion with.

I'm glad as hell some people picked out the bias in it, shows we're not all asleep.

I'm aware that there's plenty of evidence such as debt as a % of GDP which shows that the Coalition may well get a financial hospital pass from Labor more often than not, but there's a lot more to it than stats or an IMF graph in isolation. But at least some people may begin to actually question.

Personally, I do believe that the Howard government was a wasteful shocker but I'm sure it can be shown (from a certain perspective) where I'm wrong.

Zen considering what Happy said a while back "the narrative in Australia is too much about economics and the dollar. all other measures of a successful society have fallen by the wayside", which is something I passionately agree with, I'm surprised that you're impressed by shiny trinkets such as "nice" cars and new TVs, I really wouldn't have guessed that was your thing.

Zen I see you as the kind of dude that abides.

Gents, the data provided in :
http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/bp1/html/bp1_bst10-04.htm
And
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliam...
These Are not opinion articles as per many others. For those that see that economic results matters in government, the data shows the following. Let me be clear here, I do not suggest that economic management is the only criteria I would suggest but the aim was purely to put some facts there.
Looking at 1982-1985 period with a deficit, Labor was in government.
Looking at the 1991-1996 period with a deficit, Labor was in government.
Looking at 2008-2012 period with a deficit, Labor was in.
I would suggest that Howard period was a surplus period but maybe for too long.
Likewise, Rudd had the GFC. Did he manage that well, you were here.

zenagain wrote:

PS Tell me how you've been punished? I'm intrigued.

Whooosh. You're not batting on Doggo's team, are ya Zen?

Let's look at this again.

"As an Australian how has your lot in life or those around you been affected when either party was in power? Have you prospered more under one or the other?"

When you say "those around you", you mean family and friends I take it?

How's this re-wording of the question...How has Australia, the community as a whole, been affected when either party was in power? Who has prospered or been punished more under one or the other?

Took some stuff out. 'I', 'me' and 'mine' isn't the focus. Also added the word 'punished'."

Collectivism vs individualism, right there in the question.

Plenty of people punished. But then, how do you define punished?

Gina with the mining tax?

Or worker #1778 at the local 7-11? Who works weekends? Until he gets sacked after asking about discrepancies in his pay? Then can't get any unemployment benefits for an extended prescribed period of time?

And no, that ain't me. And that's the point. It ain't about me.

The dude does abide Andy and so do i.

Yes, I unashamedly am impressed by shiny trinkets, I just bought my wife a German car, doesn't make me a Nazi though. I'm also impressed by sunrises, sleek rails, the smell of my wifes hair, kids laughing, fireworks and the fact we can freely have this conversation.

I agree there is an imbalance between those that have the most and those that have the least and that divide appears to be growing. What political party has the wantons to close that gap? Lotta talk, not much action and TB's graphs illustrate that. Everytime (as illustrated) those that profess to reign it in, tend to stumble, the majority vote them out and it's back to the beginning. Brings me back my point about human nature, is everybody that stupid as some would have us believe or are there greater forces at play? This is a very complicated case Maude, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous.

even leading economists know that GDP ain't everything.....

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/01/11/porter/XQHHPo1gDtuOjgNDOt...

and yet this "thing" called the Social Progress Index, says that Australia is right up there.

http://www.socialprogressimperative.org/data/spi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Social_Progress_Index

does AUS have its own "wellbeing" index?.....its all well and good to compare yourself to others but absolutes do matter.

Or the super-duper mining resources tax TT? Ka-ching!

Sure, the poor fella at the 7/11. No avenues there for digging himself out of oppression.

I admire you TT seriously, no man left behind and all that. You can be my wingman anyday. Just make sure you take out a loan to buy a bigger wagon. I'm calling shotgun.

FFS just how many times does this need to be said.

Don't believe me look up any article on the Howard/Costello years, check the ABS statistics and lookup the treasury papers and budgets ..................

The Howard surpluses came from selling off everything he could get his hands on + being in government during the period of the biggest tax take in Australian history + spending next to nothing on nation building infrastructure.

And what did Howard do with these funds? Again don't believe me, check it out for yourself, google searching middle tax welfare will be a good start ...... and those ongoing policy commitments go along way to explaining our current budget problems.

FFS ...... history will judge Howard as an opportunist politician with a very poor grasp of economics.