What's what?

We fly as one Rabbit. I hope your wrong about the tiges.

My money is on the crows whomping them by 10 goals but I'm also pretty biased.

Fly away...

Gaz, not sure about 10 goals but the Crows will be hard to beat. Hope it's a thriller either way. I'm neutral but the Tigers are everyone's second favorite aren't they? Mine anyway. Great team song when sung with gusto at a packed MCG. Good luck to ya anyway.........

Yeh i hope its a closey too. Both sides are well overdue for a flag, tigers probably more so. Good to know it'll go somewhere deserved either way.

This was featured and discussed on The Greun last night if you didn't see it.

Last night's full program is on iview now for those interested in the panel's discussion of the clip and as it relates to Australia.

Australia has seriously lost its shit part 3, also known as "martial law for for your own good"

http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/mining/tony-abbott-says-defence-...

Just when you're positive that he couldn't prove himself to be even more of a fuckwit....

I was about to say the guy is seriously unhinged but we already knew that.

I doubt he'll ever get back to the top job but he's still potentially a very dangerous man.

Also, for those who say that we should get rid of the states, I would say that this sort of thing (federal demands for access to whatever) is a very strong argument in favour of federalism as a means to disperse power, especially if you've got a pack of heathens running the show in Canberra.

This is a fascinating interview with Malcolm Fraser.

It touches on Tony Abbott as a dangerous politician, Fraser's belief that the Libs can be classified as far right, Fraser's resignation from the Liberal party and heaps more.

https://theconversation.com/malcolm-fraser-we-have-lost-our-way-3734

Re' the states, andy..... I second that.

After ruining Kevin Rudd Abbott is now resorting to outright terrorism now that he finds himself placed in the same position. It would be laughable if there weren't other people in the party that support him still.

There is only one thing worse than a current politician and that is a former politician.

Why do you say that ID?

I'm guessing because our politicians are the best sellouts money can buy? It's pretty hard to disagree with you when there are so many examples:

- Peter Reith now working as a political lobbyist for G4S Custodial Services (runs Manus Island) and Bechtel Infrastructure (accused of war profiteering in Kuwait and Iraq)

- Anna Bligh, now CEO of the Banker's Association

- former NSW roads minister Duncan Gay, who has joined the advisory board of MU Group, which bids for NSW government transport contracts.

- Bob Carr, who walked into a 500k p.a. gig with Macquarie Bank after politics.

The examples are endless.

I was just thinking that, once they're freed of party shackles, it's interesting to hear what some ex-pollies have to say.

Paul Keating - neoliberalism has run into a dead end

Malcolm Fraser - the Liberals are no longer liberal and haven't been for decades and have moved so far from the liberal centre that they can now be considered "extreme right"

Pretty easy to write these guys off as as being hypocrites or bitter or whatever but very telling comments nonetheless.

i think he was referring specifically to m. fraser -- a right wing asshole of the lowest order while he wielded power. yet afterwards , when it matters not one hoot, he takes a more balanced and humane view.

They just always seem to pop up after they are not prime ministers and always have their two cents worth and yes often say or suggest the exact opposite of what they use to stand for or just seem to want to stir up trouble and just seem to want attention and can say whatever they like now as their in no way accountable.

Im thinking more recently, Tony abbott, Kevin Rudd, Mark latham and Jeff Kent but I'm sure there is many others...wasn't a fan of Gillard but respect how she seems to have just got on with life. (i think she wrote a book our something, but that a bit different than popping up in the media all the time saying how things should be done)

Obviously the media are also to blame.

Fraser was before my time, but from what I can work out, he was indeed right-wing on economic matters but a small 'l' liberal with regards to being pro-immigration and pro-multiculturalism.
He was also a committed conservationist, and while in power ending sand mining on Fraser Island, proclaiming Kakadu National Park, prohibiting oil exploration and drilling on the Great Barrier Reef, and declaring the first stage of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park.

So it sounds like there are heaps worse pollies out there, especially ex-pollies.

Fraser sounds like he was always reasonably humane and I think his point that the Liberals are no longer liberal, basically at all, still stands. Indo I don't think Fraser, at least, has changed his views in that regard.

John Howard's former media adviser says "it would be wrong to characterise these as the words of a former conservative 'destroyer' now seeking redemption through progressive utterances".

Still, it's just a little bit of a shame *sarcasm* that people like Keating couldn't have had their epiphanies when it mattered.

Fraser was way before my time too...i only skipped to the refugee bit of the interview, because he always has something to say on this issue and many view him as some guru on the issue because he had to deal with the Vietnam refugee thing.

I was pleasantly surprised to see the question asked.

"How do you deal with the argument about the folk left in the refugee camps who don’t have the resources to pay? How does one deal with that?"

But I guess he is still a politician at heart and didn't actually answer the question.

thanks andy for clarifying things. i was pretty young -- 15 when fraser lost the election. i was not politically aware. my info and attitude came from my GF's older brother and his friends. they were riled-up ratbag uni students.
i once met mal. went into his office when he was PM.

He might have been a lot more moderate than the current mob in some respects but his time-honoured right wing economic policies such as reducing real wages certainly wouldn't have endeared him to many.
How'd you manage getting into his office chook?

The "gas shortage" is the biggest load of crap I've heard since Saddam's WMD's... There is no gas shortage.. Never was a gas shortage.. Are we as a collective going to continue to swallow this bullshit? Are the majority of Australians really that fuckn stupid? SERIOUSLY.

We've had the mad monk suggesting to SEND IN THE ARMY to enforce coal seam gas.
Today we have Senator economic girly boy threatening economic sanctions on the states.

Meanwhile, the coalition are up to their noses in gas. But Labor go along with the "gas shortage" charade...
It's freakn mind boggling how pathetic Australia has become.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-30/nationals-president-anthony-compan...

But you declare that voting for labour is as untenable as voting for LNP and you get howled down.

Funny old world.

@sheepdog

Its a dated article but it likely to still reflect the degree to which political influence is "bought".

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/csg-industry-hires-wellconnected-staffers-2015...

Click on each CSG mining company to see the names of the parties / political influence

@sheepdog there's never been a better time to kill off the states. Kill off the Westminister system too. The states have made themselves redundant.

This whole gas shortage thing is a joke it just looks the industry is trying to maintain the illusion of scarcity to pump up prices as the gold/diamond industries do.

Pretty clever innovation, can't see the vegans being thrilled about it though.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/science/animals/scientists-come-up-wit...

.

New Zealand is offering to take 150 of our refugees on Manus how generous of them, i wonder if this is part of or on top of their annual 750 refugee intake (yes seven hundred and fifty)

ha ha what a joke 750

https://www.immigration.govt.nz/about-us/what-we-do/our-strategies-and-p...

it was pointed out tonight on tv that all those refugees up at manus are stateless just like Minister Frydenberg's mum was when she and her family fled Europe. also heard our PM taking in emotive terms how the minister's family fled persecution during one of the darkest days of humanity .... any contradiction there?

its still 150 more boat people than we're willing to take.

unless Indo you were talking about the "skilled refugee" programme.... in which case, yes, we kick NZ's arse at flying in skilled refugees.

Indo
NZ is a small country and cant absorb as many as your generous country.
NZ does not follow uncle Sam into battle like oz does so by default you should help clean up the mess more.
Don't forget though OZ has only resettled a small fraction of Syrians it said was going too.
It's old news NZ offered to take all the refugees off Nauru and Manus
That mess is in our back yard of sorts too, so too not let us take them is just inhumane.

Re gas shortage
My understanding is that OZ has plenty
It's just been pre-sold overseas that's all.
The investors who spent ten of billions building the infrastructure want a return.
Regulate the coal seam industry better and drill some more holes.

Re gas shortage.
That is my understanding too. Investors spent billions developing gas fields on the basis that they could earn a return on their investment by contracting to export the gas. The Australian government of the day signed off on this. Government moving the goalposts now would result in increased sovereign risk resulting in less development going forward. Australia just needs to develop new gas deposits in order to satisfy domestic demand.

Ha ha..there is no way you can paint it as a positive 750? come on at least round it up to 1,000 New Zealand isn't a huge place but all it's land is useable unlike Australia where 70% of its land mass is classified as arid, semi arid, or desert.

NZ hasn't increased their refugee intake in over 30 years.

Happy we take in over 13,000 refugees a year through various resettlement programs.

As it should be our intake from boat arrivals is zero, because we don't give processing priority to those that arrive by boat, having resources to travel and pay people smugglers doesn't and shouldn't buy an advantage over other less fortunate refugees, we treat refugees under the one system where money can not buy advantage.

The exception to this is refugees who are reunited with family.

To think or say we are responsible for refugees because we get involved in militarily conflict is ignorant, if we just said screw you guys ISIS can do as they wish much more people would become refugees and much more innocent people would be killed.

PS. Im not sure if plane arrivals come under our intake quota, but it should noted those that arrive by plane are only eligible for a temporary protection visa, this is temporary and can not be upgraded to permanent residency or to become a citizen, this is in part a reason why those with money and passports still try to arrival via boat.

Indo you do talk some faeces
Grossly innacurate statements like "all NZ's land is usable" points to the fact you know very little about NZ's agricultural capabilities. Last time I looked the South Island was covered in a vast alpine rejoin that is growing fuck all but rocks. The north island is semi arable in parts and only grows what it does by using more fertiliser per capita than any other country in the world.
Uneducated generalisations do your arguments no favours.
Just about every river in the whole north island is too polluted to safely swim in.
Rapid intensification of the dairy industry to feed the global demand has fucked our waterways.
When you say you are not responsible for refugees from battle zones your country follows the US of muthfuckin A into blindly I couldn't agree less. For example--
iraq and it's non existent WMD's
Mmmmm
Etc etc
Blah blah it's all been said before on other forums

Please don't fall for the gas shortage ruse.

It's cut from the same cloth as the objection to the mining tax by the miners, even down to the same laughable moaning about sovereignty.

These are the same transnational corporations that helped script the Trade agreements the remove our sovereignty .

The energy companies lied to gain access to the gas in the first place stating that they'd never need to access gas they didn't extract themselves. Now they're poaching the East coast domestic gas and looking around for the next big thing to rape.

That being the coal seam gas.

Please don't fall for their lies. You are being played like a harp.

ISIS emerged from political and social vacuums created after the illegal Gulf wars - wars that Australia participated in.

ISIS emerged from the middle east unrest created between different religions and ethnicity's call them what you will but the middle east has been a basket case of conflict for thousands of years and most likely will until this world cease to exist, you cut off one head of the beast and another two spring up, USA only created ISIS in the fact they cut off one of the beast head..

If another westerner didn't step a foot in the middle east tomorrow the region would continue to be a basket case and it would continue to produce a high number of refugees.

Inzider what every you want to argue about NZ there is no way to defend a quota of 750 refugee a year an intake that hasn't risen in over 30 year.

NZ can also have a completely different approach to the issue of border control and refugees and put their hand up to help resettle refugees from Manus etc as Australia acts as a buffer to NZ, from West Java its about 2,000km to Australia in contrast if a refugee boat wanted to get to NZ from West Java it would need to travel about 8,000km past 5,000km of Australian coast (and then return), it's possible and might have happened once or twice but they are never going to flooded, they could take every refugee we have in offshore detention tomorrow and it would still not create a pull factor for them. (although it would most likely would result in an influx of boats for us, possibly a big reason why its unlikely to happen)

Same goes with NZ approach to military involvement, I'm far from knowledgeable in this area but I'm sure their location and size is a big factor in not really needing to worry about defending their country.

Which is in contrast to Australia which is pretty much on the door step of China, North Korea India, Indonesia and other unpredictable and possible volatile countries, again NZ has us as a buffer and a big brother to protect them, while we always need to suck up USA butt because if anything did happen we couldn't defend ourselves and need the USA.

If NZ was sitting where Xmas island was their approach to refugees and military would be completely different.

Sounds reasonable.

ISIS emerged from the chaos left after the gulf wars. The Arab spring didn't cause ISIS but its a fact that ISIS took advantage of those power vacuums also.

Yes the middle east is a basket case so what business has the west meddling there? The Arabs are pretty clever getting the West to fight their tribal wars. Your argument completely disregards the role the Saudis (apparent US ally) has in sponsoring worldwide and ME terrorism and their ongoing fight with Iran ( a much more liberal and democratic Arab state but labeled the "bad dudes" by the US & Israel.

NZ has an independent (American free) foreign policy which in my eyes is infinately better than being the subservient lackey for American follies. Name one war that the yanks have been in since Vietnam that was the right call, just doesn't happen, the yanks have the willingness and capacity to shoot themselves in the foot each and every time.

If there are so many "bad dudes" on our doorstep surely a strong independent foreign policy matched with open trade and positive foreign affairs/ relations coupled with well targeted aid would be so much better than being an American super suck-hole.

I think this current Manus situation is interesting.

About a year ago refugees and advocates wanted the detention centre closed down, and it was ruled to be closed down hence why its being closed, but now they are camped up inside and dot want to leave :D

During the week refugees and advocates have been saying PNG is to dangerous and they will not move to new facilities, despite the fact most have been mingling and spending time in town for the past year since manus was ruled an open centre.

Then today it's been reported PNG locals are even helping the refugees who wont leave and providing them with food and water and allowing them access to electricity in the next door offices.

Meanwhile what is rarely reported is just like how 80% of refugees on Nauru live in the community, refugees on manus are also free to live in the community and 34 refugees actually do live in the community some even have been reported to be in relationships with locals.

77 refugees have already moved to a new centre, IMHO these people should be rewarded and gain any future resettlement priority.

And of the 587 who refuse to budge from the old centre, of no surprise there is 140 that have been rejected as being refugees.

Ive read a few articles today but most figures taken from this article https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/world/oceania/what-do-refugee-advocates...

Manus refugees stateless (bad stateless)
Josh Frydenberg's mum stateless (good)

So its all good at Manus island. Only a couple of hundred people not being catered for , and they are mostly men , so nothing to see here!

All refugees on Manus are catered for, its whether they choose to want to be housed and feed or not, doing so quietly though would bring little to no publicity or attention to the causes of refugee and refugee advocates.

Refusing to budge and saying they are in danger if they move though, gets media attention and gets the crazy gullible left jumping up and down with the aim to put pressure on the government to bring them here.

All kind of pointless but all to be expected.

Pretty simple really
Send them to NZ
Don't let them get on a plane to OZ via visa restrictions
Game over

Insider. That sounds far too logical and simple to work inside this nuthouse.

For a start New Zealand only offered to take 150 people combined on Manus and Nauru i believe we still have over a thousand refugees and asylum seekers.

So even if Australia said ok lets do it, it's far from game over.

Two there is currently over 13,000 refugees in Indonesia wanting to get to Australia, waiting for some kind of sign to get back on a boat and try again, a green light and trigger effect could be caused from change of policy or resettlement of refugees from detention centres.

Yes sure in small numbers we can turn boats back, but in larger numbers it would be almost logistically impossible and only one or two would need to slip to far to turn back and we would be back at square one, needing to put people in detention, nobody wants that, and it would also be a political disaster.

Yes the USA deal comes with the same risk, hence why its been reported border control boats and staff numbers have been vamped up in our northern waters.

Im sure its also the reason why we have only seen 25 refugees resettled so far, and i wouldn't expect to see a whole lot resettled fast or at once, it will be a trickle that goes over years, and the uncertainty around it I'm sure is intentional, even if behind the scenes Trump has given a figure it wont be released, I'm sure the conversation reported in media between Australia and Trump and uncertainty around the issue was even intentional, its actually the perfect time to do it with Trump in power because I'm sure even refugees know how unpredictable he is and that it's no certainty that he will keep accepting our refugees.

BTW. Yes i know its almost a cliche the backdoor thing, but it is a risk, and let's say liberals said yeah okay lets do it, then a few years latter it was reported refugees had ended up in Australia via NZ, you can guarantee it would be used as weapon in politics, especially because labor also got the same offer from NZ so they could say, we didn't do it because of the risk, you guys screwed up and you said these people would never get to Australia, ad now they have.

So yes there is a political aspect to it too.

Its 100% to do with politics ... another Little Winston legacy.