What's what?

@Blowin,

Sounds better than jobs and growth.

@Ralph,

My old man ran a state government department, and all during his tenure (and the director before him), it made a healthy profit, so I don't subscribe to theory that Big Govt = Inefficient. I've seen that it's more complex than that.

Mike Baird recently sold that govt department and now the NSW public will be worse off for it. 

Agree with you on schooling.

Yeh the over-crowding is terrible. Sometimes (not often!) the traffic slows down for a kilometre outside town and the surf? Shit there were FOUR other people in the water the other day. Shocking!
I think those pushing for serious immigration reductions are demonstrating a form of nimbyism hiding, as it usually does, behind a facade of environmentalism. It can also easily then become an excuse for not doing anything about the root causes of our environmental problems. Greed and poor governance.

The demographics suggest that global population will level out within the lifetime of those still at school. Australia, with even reasonable environmental management, can cope more easily with a significant population increase over that time than most other nations. Of course we can continue to shirk our responsibilities as we have on climate change and further add to our growing international reputation for greed and backward looking policy.

Assertion with no evidence BB.
Both of your premises.

Muslims, check. China and Chinese, check. Indians, check. Indigenous Australians being divisive, check. Immigration of any type, check. Bad, bad, bad, check.

Glorious rosy mono-culture (a type of one nation), check.

Hey True Blue (not you, TBB!), don't say you've gone, check.

Nothing to see here, check.

Maaaaaate.

BB what's wrong with nimby-ism?

Freeride the entire debate has been evidence free! Last time I looked the median UN projection showed stabilisation around the turn of the century. Look it up if you disagree. The predictions have moved around a bit and depend on various assumptions so you can argue against it.

As for Australia's maximum sustainable population, that too depends on a lot of assumptions about resource use but given we can support the current population with appalling environmental management and spectacularly wasteful resource use, I would argue that with good management Australia could support somewhere around double the current level.

Andy, the problem with nimbyism is that it just shifts the problem, usually onto those who are less advantaged.

I tell you what is not evidence free and environmentalism "hiding behind nimby-ism".

Just down the road from me is a path that runs beside a paddock with a creek at the bottom. There are reeds and bushes beside the path.
Little family of fairy wrens , maybe 2 or 3 of them live there.
Reed warblers live in the reeds.

That paddock is about to be turned into housing estate, the path into a road.
One day very soon the reed warblers and the wrens will be bulldozed out of existence.
Gone like they never existed.

No-one will shed a tear, no one will give a fuck. Certainly not the wealthy white flight escapees from Sydney and Melbourne building their dream McMansions and getting out of the crush of Sydney. They won't ever have known they existed.

They'll think they are in paradise. Hell, some of them will probably be vegans thinking they are doing their bit to save the environment.

Times that by a thousand, ten thousand, all over Australia.

All the good management in the world and other meaningless corpo-speak won't change that.

Keep ratcheting up the population at double the rate of the long term average and simple maths takes over. On every level.

NIMBYism is thinking globally acting locally. It’s local custodianship.

What else is there ? It’s the only relevant and righteous action people can take.

It always comes down to personal responsibility.

How’s how BB tried to shift blame for inaction on environmental issues on those who oppose the continued degradation of Australia through rampant population growth .....you’ve got to watch these sly bastards .

The demographics stated that Australia’s population would be 25M in 2040.

They were wrong by 20 years. Got the timeframe wrong by 70 percent.

And you still have faith in demographics and statistics.

That’s the incontrovertible truth , Freeride.

Quoting flawed and suspect research and demographics only stands up if you close your eyes to the world around you.

Blindboy, have you heard of The Farm at Byron Bay?

Kind of a theme park disguised as a restaurant and cafe and whatnot, 80 acres on
Ewingsdale Road, owned by Tom Lane who made his fortune through the Oroton fashion empire.
The place gets punters in by the multiple busload.

Anyway, Tom Lane has bought a prime development place across the road from me, across the road from a whole suburb of retirees, pensioners, average Joes.

Tom Lane wants to make the place into THE wedding and reception place on the North Coast with endless weddings catering for hundreds of people at a time, not to mention nighttime receptions/parties.
The place has no parking and the prevailing southerly will carry every sound across the adjacent residential neighbourhood.
Rob, the disability pensioner across my back fence, is already talking of selling up.

If objecting to unwanted development like this is nimby-ism, I'm ok with that.

" It’s local custodianship."

Thank you.

Blindboy- Standing proudly for the Fake Left.

Instrumental in supporting neoliberalism and rampant overdevelopment by defending open borders . Even employs the language of the White Shoe brigade.

Perpetuating the lie that we have a responsibility to absorb millions of Chinese and Indians because they’ve outbred the sustainability of their own countries. China has just rescinded the one child policy.....looks like we will need to take millions and millions more Chinese to accomodate their relentless expansion.

God who would have thought that a bunch of surfers would have turned into such a bunch of selfish, narrow minded nimbys? Oh yeh, that's right, they were always there, hiding their precious "secret spots", blasting anyone who arrived in the area 5 minutes after them as blowins, the epitome of the settler mentality " we got here first (well not really but never mind, reality is so inconvenient) so fuck off!" Smug self-righteous prats with no real interest beyond self-interest. See ya boys, 'cos that's what you are, a bunch of overgrown fucking adolescents.

No ones blasting anyone for turning up late.

What I’m saying is that we don’t have to destroy our country to satisfy the desires of others after they’ve fucked their country.

And anyone is welcome at a secret spot .....if they can keep their mouth shut.

For a fella who considers himself a cut above the rest , you’re not very nuanced are you , BB ?

Straighten up & fly white!

Right?

And then there’s Facto where it’s less about a lack of nuance and more about the continued refusal to believe 2+2 =4.

Despite the fact that virtually half the Aussie population was born overseas , he still thinks the attempt to preserve our remaining culture is racist.

Despite the fact that our population growth is exponentially greater than any other developed country and on the least hospitable continent, that the concern about population growth is racist.

No one ever said that thinking was his strong point.

Epic tantrum BB.

You said concern about population growth had no basis in environmental concern- that any concern was a facade.

You got a couple of clear real world examples where that was not the case and then threw your toys out of the cot in response.

Mate you must wonder sometimes why your arguments here are not persuasive?

Doesn't BB love a good tanty when his ideals are picked to pieces?!

You can almost set your watch by it.

They'd be a lot more persuasive if they were logical, coherent and consistent.
And didn't rely on his self-confessed appeals to emotion.

Blowie, I'm sure this isn't news to anyone, even the immigration glommers on here, the ones that have a stronger point of argument gathered round questions of the environment at least, well, stronger entirely relative to you...

because...

your scurrying arguments, your colourful responses, your grand over-arching vision as it were, doesn't even cut that mild mustard.

All roads lead back to you know where for you, don't they?

Why is this?

Actually, who really gives a shite.

Your online persona here is a grubby archetype that needs constant skewering. It's a cultural cancer, always lurking, sometimes in remission, but full-blown since the mid 90s and early 2000s. And our body politic has suffered. It is suffering. My optimism is that it's not terminal. Cancer can be beaten!

Anyway, a (deceptively?) simple question...

"preserve our remaining culture"

what does this mean?

Hey True Blue*?

*Not you, TBB

So gents you all just given some perfect examples of what BB just said

" but given we can support the current population with appalling environmental management and spectacularly wasteful resource use"

Please play nice...........you smug self-righteous prats with no real interest beyond self-interest. Smile

" but given we can support the current population with appalling environmental management and spectacularly wasteful resource use"

Well, when you put it like that, maybe I'll reconsider my position.

There is no doubt increasing population growth is bad news if not planned which is exactly whats happening throw in the fact NSW never has moved on from the Rum Corps corruption model and Queensland voted in Joh (no need to say any more) the East Coast has / is paradise being raped shame really.

If only there was anything deceptive about your simplicity, Facto.

Interesting read in my favourite paper today, i will cut and paste for those without a subscription.

Greens’ leader Richard Di Natale yesterday outlined his party’s promise to shut down the coal industry by 2030. He is living in a complete dreamworld if he thinks Australia can be out of coal by 2030 and not face massive economic dislocation and lower living standards.

Without this export income, we become unable to import at the current rate, including the inputs for his beloved renewable energy. And without coal, state and federal governments will be less able to provide services and help the less well-off.

Let’s go through some salient facts about coal in Australia. We are the largest producer of high-quality coal in the world, with three-quarters of our coal production exported, mainly to Asia. The amount of coal produced and exported has been increasing strongly in recent years, rising from about 60 megatonnes of exports a decade ago to 100mt today.

Coal is Australia’s highest export earner, just above iron ore. (Of course, iron ore makes no sense without coal.) In 2017-18, coal exports amounted to $66 billion. This figure is expected to be higher this financial year. The international prices of both coking and thermal coal have been rising since 2015, indicating ongoing strength in demand, particularly from Asia.

Coalmining in Australia directly employs more than 80,000 workers in high-paying jobs. There are at least as many indirect jobs created, including at export ports.

Coalmining is most prevalent in Queensland and NSW. Coal royalties are important to both state governments, particularly Queensland. This financial year, Queensland will earn more than $5bn in coal royalties. Were it not for these, the Queensland government would be in deep fiscal trouble.

Coal is also important in supporting the federal budget through the flow of company tax receipts.

This year’s budget papers noted that if the coking coal price were to remain elevated at current levels (compared with Treasury’s assumption of a fall in the price), an extra $600 million would be added to tax receipts next financial year and a further $1bn in the following one.

While the start of the Adani mine in the Galilee Basin has been unforgivably delayed, two new coalmines have been approved in Queensland since 2015. Because the high-quality coal from Adani will replace high-emitting brown coal burnt in India to generate electricity, the net effect on world emissions would be positive. And it would provide the basis for large numbers of Indians being able to access electricity for the first time.

Here’s the real kicker: even if Australia gets out of coal, it doesn’t mean the world’s use of coal will fall — it will just be sourced from inferior ore bodies in different countries.

JUDITH SLOANCONTRIBUTING ECONOMICS EDITOR
Judith Sloan is an economist and company director. She holds degrees from the University of Melbourne and the London School of Economics. She has held a number of government appointments, including Commissioner... Read more

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/politics/coal-hard-facts-undermi...

I reckon you should change your signature on here to "I think i have a crush on Judith Sloan", Indo.

More realistic. Word on the street is she likes a 'bit of rough'. Working class Tory! You're in, cowboy!

Big cultural touchstone coming up on the 25th April, Blowin'.

More querying, self and otherwise, is coming...as always.

I dunno if ducking & weaving is true blue or un-Australian?

It’s just a day for me, mate.

A good day . It’d be over and done and harmless if the SJW fucksticks like you just extended the courtesy of respecting Australians partaking in their culture like you do for other cultures.

But you’ve got to inflict your bullshit on others . It’s what fucksticks do I suppose. I’m not even sure I can even remember what your objection is , no doubt you’ll tell everyone.

Then you’ll go to your Anzac Day party like everyone else.

What's 'social justice' got to do with the grand mythos/pathos and anzackery of the day?

Party on, dude...if that's your thing.

As an aside, reading Frederick Manning's The Middle Parts of Fortune on my flight.

Worthy.

So, if there are no coal sales and no related tax receipts/ royalties, where is the government going to get the money to buy back water, (water that may or may not actually exist) for the environment.

One shareholder, the UK-based EF Realisation Fund, told the London stock exchange that EAA (Eastern Australia Agriculture) “was able to negotiate a price for the water entitlements to the highest level ever paid and in August 2017 it completed the largest ever sale of water entitlements in the Murray-Darling basin”

Thanks Barnaby

Damn Greens just don’t think things through enough.

https://www.michaelwest.com.au/tandou-can-do-double-standards-in-water-p...

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/apr/17/questions-over-co...

Exactly

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2019/04/migrants-sharpen-attack-unfair-...

“Unbelievably, the open borders nutters at the Labor Party want to increase the number of elderly parental visas per migrant household – because having four elderly people draining Australian taxpayers, crushing infrastructure, and exacerbating the ageing of the population is somehow preferable to two.

Rather than trying to ‘fix’ the structural Budget deficit by cutting back spending on welfare and other important community programs, politicians should first tackle wasteful and illogical programs like elderly parent visas.”

Australia’s welfare safety net which is a proud backbone of our society does not provide a living wage , yet migrants- who no one asked to come here - are saying that BOTH sets of parents should be allowed in Australia at Australian’s expense.

Get fucked !

Story doing the rounds today that Barnyard, against departmental advice and bereft of all transparency, has bought back once in every rare flood (10 plus years) water flows across land owned by a company established by none other than Angus Taylor the current liberal energy minister. Advice now says that's $50 million wasted on non existent water.

Circles within circles but nothing to see here until we get a Federal ICAC.

MOBster Legal said: Guy, this is a non political forum topic...report to the office.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/angus-taylor-defamation-journalists

Nothing suss is implied about Barnyard's water buybacks here,there or everywhere.
https://coffscoastoutlook.com.au/well-well-well-tender-free-water-deal-n...

Water buyback Story is on The Project right Now!

The Tiny Mind Collective

Well here we all are and we all agree,
There is nothing worse than a refugee.
Migrants are better but still not quite good,
So we accept fewer than we really should.
The problems we think are environmental,
But our thinking is totally compartmental.
There's not enough water and it rarely rains,
But the real problem is our tiny brains.
Our policy you see is totally rotten,
We waste too much water growing cotton
Connecting the dots is beyond our wit,
When in every river we dump our shit.
Our planning is so poor our cities sprawl,
While our carbon emissions rise not fall.
And why should we care since she'll be right mate,
Unless of course we have left it too late.
But we know very well where to place the blame,
Since fault in such cases is always the same.
It's the last lot of migrants coming ashore,
Never the ones who came so long before.
It's an old story the settler mentality,
But it always reveals the same venality.
Convenient fictions and exploitation,
The founding features of our settler nation.

My point is barnyard has been running water against departmental advice and with no transparency on the use of taxpayers money. Only a federal ICAC will stop ministers of all political colours making such questionable decisions. Doesn’t matter who you vote for barnyard has been making questionable decisions.

We need a federal ICAC with the powers to look back for the last 6 years.

I like your poem BB. No bites from any "Tiny Minds" yet.

Hahaha, you've really nailed your colours to the mast with that latest signature, Indo.

You're on the SS Minnow!

... there was an episode of Gillian’s Island where a mini Japanese sub visited the mooroned campers and the Japanese captain thought the war was still going ... indo to a tee

Ginger was hot, but Mary was the one you'd take home to meet mum.

yep Zens on that one!

@Factum

Notice a pattern.

Often have university degrees, but generally have lived and experienced the topics they are passionate about, something becoming more and more rare in this day and age, all are not scared to tell it how it is even if people don't like to hear it.

BTW. Id assume many people would label many of these people as right wing, but doesn't really fit the cliche view of older white male stereotype, funny enough only Dick fits that stereotype, only other white person is Lauren, with most funny enough being women of ethnic backgrounds.

Rita Panahi= Iranian background but born in USA, however family moved back to Iran when she was 2 or 3 lived in Iran until she was about 8 fled to Australia as a refugee, comes from a muslim family but is an atheist, controversial Journalists.

Lauren Southern= The odd sheep of the lot really, Canadian right wing uni student type background, probably the most right wing of the lot, but she is too good not to like, very in your face, not religious. (her movie/docco Borderless about people trafficking/refuges in Europe should be good, our next month)

Jacinta Price and Anthony Dillion = both indigenous mix backgrounds, both tell it how it is, instead of what people want to hear

Debra Soh.= Canadian of Japanese heritage, bringing science and common sense to a topic where it is generally completely missing

Armin Navabi = Iranin born was a pretty full on muslim now is an atheist.

Brigitte Gabriel =Lebanese born gone through pretty crazy shit, living in a bomb shelter through ten years of war, knows Islam better than most muslims

Dick Smith = Experienced business man, philanthropist, adventurist, activist, not much to dislike about old Dick.

BTW. I could probably add Greenpeace co-founder Patrick Moore to that list for his views on climate change, I've been watching a few of his videos the last few days and pretty convincing.

"...all are not scared to tell it how it is..."

Not quite. They're telling YOU what YOU already believe. You've sought out people who articulate your feelings. There's nothing objective or absolute about what any of them say.

In some cases this is true, but in other cases its not true at all, many of my views have changed over time because of the things ive learnt from these people or sometimes you dont really have a strong view either way because you really dont know much about the issue, but then you learn more from someone and you develop more knowledge and develop a view.

Often on a topic there is a common narrative or even two different common narratives and sometimes you are like...hmmm...it just doesn't add up...then you read or hear a view and it's like shit, now that makes sense.

Against Dept advice Joyce paid record $80m price for MP Taylor's Cotton Farms.
For imaginary overflow mid drought that Govt can't use as it's outside of Property.
Taylors farms retain all usable river/water & value + bag $80m record Govt handout.
Our public Asset water deal went down in the Cayman Islands.
Taylor who signed off on said companies, says it has nothing to do with him.
https://10daily.com.au/shows/theproject/exclusive/a190418jmb/hamish-inve...

Great Barrier Reef Foundation $1/2b record handout is looking like peanuts...
Here's what Snowy's grandson is gonna sell back to us next...smell that overflow.

Perhaps ID, but my antennae start twitching whenever I hear someone say a commentator is dropping "truth bombs" or "telling it like it is".

No, they're not. The commentator is merely placing another entrant in the contest of ideas.

Also, I'm very wary - and what I'm gonna say applies equally to myself - when older people adopt conservative ideas. I've spent a lot of time reading, thinking, and self-reflecting on this over the last few years, and I think anyone in the position should test their argument more vigorously than usual as there's a tendency to change your beliefs as you age. Thing is, those changes aren't based on reason or evidence, they're a product of age, just the same as wrinkles and grey hair.

If you accept those newfound beliefs without testing them against that criteria then the chances are you're also not basing your decision on reason or evidence.

I agree.

Continuous reassessment.

I think it's only natural that we change our views as we age because it's very unlikely for us to get things correct the first time, especially as when we are young we don't have the life experience or understanding of life or maturity to develop views or beliefs that will stick with us all our life.

Our views when young are also often not formed on reason or facts or much thought, we often just blindly follow the crowd or our friends or what's perceived as cool or are often easily influenced by the views of others like a musician or someone else we say look up too, or even just take the opposite views of people like our parents, sadly for some as they go through life either through stubbornness or habit they don't reassess their views.

Personally i hate the words conservative and progressive, i just think they are totally misused and have misleading connotations.

Conservative /tradational/ no change= viewed in a negative light, when really some things don't need change because things have been fine tuned and work fine.

Progressive/change= always viewed in a positive light, any change is good, when really it's not and is often a step backwards or makes more problems than the change was made to solve.

Off-course the flip side is often change is needed and often it is a good thing too.

I will give you an example, in more traditional societies like Indonesia older people are much more respected and the children are expected to look after their parents as they age, this generally works very well and it connects all generations of family together.

In the west we naturally consider our society more progressive, but many of us are very disconnected from the elders of our society, even to an extent where for some it's easiest to just put their parents in a retirement home and instead of respected we even view old age in a negative light.