All Things Religion Thread

Interesting read.

Links together the perfect storm of conspiracy theorists, COVID and the internet, together with the apparent human need to try to make sense of the world through a belief system that can spin a good yarn.
And in a world where politics and the media are failing in their role, it's no wonder.
Good to see that the author understands that it's not a "left" or "right" thing.

https://www.crikey.com.au/2020/09/04/qanon-conspiracy-theory-future-of-p...

Andy, Its wrong to lump everything together then write it off as fantasy. The book of many books (The Bible) started with Moses and a face to face with God and ended with John on a prison island called Patmos. Lots of insight about future events there.
Why do people get anxious and drift toward wacky conspiracy like anti vacc and 5G, and why does Trump live a crazy distorted outlook but is kind of right in a way about political corruption.....I think its because God puts something in the air. For many years before Jesus came the Greek philosophers were obsessed with "Logos"..They could feel it in the air that Logos "THE WORD" is coming..and then He came.."And The word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory the only begotten of the Father , full of grace and truth"...John 1:14
So even non believers in God were "feelin it" something in the air..something coming..something big was going to happen and it did...the Word, the speaking , visible walking talking one of God came to visit and turned the whole world on its head...My keys that everyone thought stupid were just that ..keys to help unlock Revelation especially 13...nobody knows how it will pan out exactly but you can feel something coming, unless your a corpse...Paul says best..." For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known...
1 Corinthians 13:12.....which means... the New Living Translation explains it pretty well. "Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.".
..Fake empires copying Christianity for power and gain , corrupt pollies and business people even in Australia selling us to China the Dragon for their own gain.
We see the global banks trying to make us cashless, if they succeed it will probably be converted to a one world crypto. Then they will have full control over humanity and only tech can deliver your finances which are then open to increases in charges and manipulation as there is no cash to compete...and who will run this new order to achieve an artificial promise of peace and security?...these are some of the the "Glass darkly" questions that some of us are already thinking about....anyone, Christian or not can start to see pieces coming together, a shift in the globe, something in the air, something on the brink of a change. My thoughts are it will be bad for us who love freedom but persevere and God will fix it after the times of testing have passed.... Jesus again...
He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
And in the morning, ‘It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times....Jesus... Matt 16: 2 & 3

pffft, fairytales!

Andy , yes a very interesting read , especially when you see that it was written end of Sept....some people just need to believe in something that they feel reassures them , I have quite a few friends who now follow QAnon........and they are all sorta left wing Hipster/Byron Bay types......
Quote from your article...."What’s interesting is the way QAnon has flourished in Australia in the absence of a charismatic Trump-like figure, drawing in hippyish sorts who might’ve once ostensibly been on the political left."
I am actually seeing a big increase in people turning to QAnon, as a way of explanation of what's wrong with our current system , and they are just about all Lefties........hmmmmmm??

then....."Because Q offers what regular life doesn’t. It’s a really good story. It has heroes and villains. It helps people make sense of a world that is surreal, nonsensical and often increasingly grim. It’s no surprise that The Atlantic’s Adrienne LaFrance, in one of the seminal pieces of writing on QAnon, calls it a new American religion.

When adherents fall down the QAnon rabbithole, they’re often so feverishly drawn into that parallel universe they let their offline relationships wither and die. Q gives them all the purpose and hope they need. They’re patriots, citizen journalists, internet sleuths piecing together the fragments of a great, terrible secret, helping to save the world from a terrible evil.

Mainstream politics, the media, institutions that are meant to give people hope, meaning, clarity and solace, have failed to do that. Their message is far less compelling. And as long as that continues to be true, QAnon will be here to stay."

So without any proof at all people have faith in QAnon , I have faith in God based on facts.....but if you don't search for facts, the truth........well we now have a movement /religion based on well nothing?

What actual historical facts are there that any god existed, the Bible is a book used to control feeble minds, and often in not a very nice way.
Here’s a question about religion. When the clergy/ office bearers of church groups have historically committed violent or sexual crimes against community members and the institution has protected these men/women why aren’t these churches regarded the same as outlaw motorcycle gangs. And why don’t we have legislation to protect the public from these organisations. It would appear that some of the largest institutions of god, especially in this country should be regarded in the same manner.
Heaven and Hell are here on earth now, and sometimes churches have caused there constituents to live there lives in Hell.

Organised religion has a lot to answer for over the course of time. And they don’t seem to be getting any better.

That’s what actual history shows.

soggydog....here's a question for you , "can you prove God does not exist, or do you have faith that God does not exist?"

we have been discussing the facts of the Bible and proof that Jesus did exist.....go back and have a read......and yes man has committed crimes in the name of God.......but that is man's weakness , o Gods!

If god existed surely he would look after his own people and answer their prayers.

Surely there would have been studies looking at the rates of sickness/illness/life span etc comparing the followers of different religions to see if any are benefiting more than others or non religious people?

Which would be some kind of evidence to favour that religion.

If its been done which you would expect it has, then obviously there is no results that point to one religion showing these people rarely die of disease and life long healthy life.

Also the thing i never get about religion/God is if there really was a god, why bother allowing there to be a dark side & satan & hell?, why not just be nice and skip all the test and just give everyone a nice afterlife?

It can proven that Jesus was a man, proving he was the son of god is another matter entirely.
I just walked outside and yelled into the sky” hey God, I’m having an internet discussion about your existence, where are you, send me a sign.” Nothing.
Now you try and we’ll compare notes. No making up bullshit now.

ID, the Catholic Church has actually admitted that they invented the concept of hell. Some would say as a control mechanism. Others would disagree.

Edit. I did a little fact check. Old Testament, no hell. New Testament and musings of theologians of many religions, various forms of fire and brimstone.
The Catholic version was more that Hell is the state of mind where there is the absence of god.

Indo.....If god existed surely he would look after his own people and answer their prayers..........in my case he has and does.....but God is loving but also wrathful....

As humans we have a very limited concept of a God that created everything ,as how the hell (pardon the pun) would we ever be able to apply our limited inrellect to understand the Creator? We just cannot comprehend God's power....that is why we are given God's law to abide by with the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels....
In the Old testament , God has no problem ,when man starts becoming decadent and worships other Gods....he just wipes man out!

Soggy......ID, the Catholic Church has actually admitted that they invented the concept of hell. Some would say as a control mechanism. Others would disagree.!

the catholic Church is and middleman for God , with it's own interpretations , a lot of Born again Christians see the Catholic Church as an instrument of the devil!

And Mr Jehovah... whats he all about..a Cult some say ?

Jehovah is really just another name for god (quick google) Hebrew name.

It's like the word Allah, most associated it with Islam, but all it means in Arabic is God, lots of Christian also refer to god as Allah.

But yeah those Jehovah witness crew are borderline cult like.

Udo....there are so many different cults in Christianity...who have taken parts of the Bible to create their own version of Christianity.

brutus, care to expand on your concept of faith based facts (your last para @ 9.40)? I find your use of the word "facts" misleading, you surely mean you have unquestioning faith, whatever that means to you, in a doctrine which allows you to accept it as fact when none of can be proven scientifically or any other way.

it's interesting that Islam /Jews/Christians all believe in the same God...but have their own interpretations , of how to worship God!

I asked a question of soggy before , that if you don't believe in God , you must have faith that there is no God......so where does that faith come from?

"it's interesting that Islam /Jews/Christians all believe in the same God...but have their own interpretations , of how to worship God!"

Is it more correct to say all three religions, as do all major eastern and western spiritual belief systems share the same basic tenets?

And it yet to the best of my knowledge it is only buddhism that tells followers to question the teachings and any teacher to ensure they are right for you i.e. questioning the teachings/teacher forms a part of the teachings and is fundamentally encouraged.

Buddhism requires no god. it is not a theistic religion.

The Jews were supposed to become Christians but dropped the ball. It was the next progression for them and what they were waiting for but missed it. The bible says they will all be Christians eventually, after a special modern times event.
Islam is a modern creation and a very new religion. It borrows from the bible and alters it to give it some credibility but has a mission statement of its own.
Buddhism is loved by those who don't want anyone watching what they get up to.
Practiced heavily in Hollywood.

"Buddhism is loved by those who don't want anyone watching what they get up to.
Practiced heavily in Hollywood."

Quite a few catholic priests and marist brothers with the same mindset

We've been over this subject...The Roman catholic (World) church is NOT the Christian church.
It has its own thing going on...Still has the old pagan "Queen of heaven cult" and a different gospel to Jesus, counterfeit holy father, richest city in the world and 63 acres, Jesuits who have infiltrated every corner of the earth. Murdered the bible translators who were trying to put it in English after Vatican locked it up in Latin so nobody could read it. Burned Christians at the stake for not submitting to the Vatican and the pope. They aren't nice and.....
I don't really think they believe in God either.

Hey Optimist, do you tithe?

"The Jews were supposed to become Christians but dropped the ball. It was the next progression for them and what they were waiting for but missed it. The bible says they will all be Christians eventually, after a special modern times event...."

An old Jewish mate of mine used to laugh heavily at the fundamental right-wing christians in the US for supporting Israel only because according to their belief on judgement day when Christ reappears on earth all the Jews will convert to christians and thereby be saved. Boy did old mate laugh at that.

"Buddhism is loved by those who don't want anyone watching what they get up to.
Practiced heavily in Hollywood"

.....mmmm, buddhism also believes in karma while christians believe their sins can be forgiven not matter how, you know base ....

.

I see you dug up the old Jimmy shagger vid....I suppose at least he liked girls.
Karma ? a mindless force that gets you back.....but not a God who is watching.
The Jews will become Christians before Christs second advent. It was a promise by God that they would be grafted back into the tree.
...and Adam 12.....I tithe if I'm in a place or church where I believe its benefiting the needy or building something of worth . Much of my life has been 100% commitment of my finances and time not 10% and I have established two charities personally now run by others which help people globally. Giving can be regular or seasonal as long as it brings forth fruit acceptable to God. We remember that Jesus had nothing.

Jimmy get forgiven if he repents before god?

..... I remember a TV interview with one of those convicted pedophile priests from Ballarat, convicted of raping over 30 children. When asked about forgiveness he replied oh god is my judge and I will seek forgiveness from him.

You believe in forgiveness optimist?

Jimmy got caught shagging prostitutes. If he's genuine he will be OK but should never preach again. True humility would make him volunteer as the church cleaner..If hes still preaching I doubt he will make it.
but that priest who rapes kids isn't genuine and won't make it...those guys are just dark...don't believe a word they say.

Optimist, I'm not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that religion is used as a convenient cover for a multitude of wrong doings.

Also as you are no doubt aware, it isn't only the catholics that have amassed vast fortunes in the name of religion. Personally I reckon the main reason that has kept christianity alive is because it has been turned into a very profitable franchise.

Just watched Social Dilemma and there seems to be a similarity between the social platforms and organised religion. The public/ parishioners think they are getting one thing when in fact those behind the scenes are raking in a fortune

By the way I got a laugh from your Advance Australia Fair modification, now how do we get it sung at the next grand final?

@Optimist

"Its wrong to lump everything together then write it off as fantasy"

Not entirely sure what you mean - That's not what the author is saying and that's not what I'm saying.
The point is that in this case, a budding belief system in conjunction with other issues is causing real problems.

To quote the article, "much like evangelical Christianity, QAnon tries to offer sense and cohesion during a seemingly apocalyptic time".

Hence the relevance to this thread.

I'd be keen to hear your clarification.

.... and what about Frank Houston Optimist and all those involved in the coverup? They worthy of god’s forgiveness?

George Carlin apparently wasn't worthy.

Guy, the whole point is that nobody is worthy, yet God offers forgiveness anyway.

Yet the bible also teaches that we can deduce where someone's at by the "fruit" they produce - if someone has accepted the offer if forgiveness, then they should find themselves undergoing a slow reformation of character. Habitual patterns of evil behaviour then suggest that they are not forgiven.

I met Frank a few times...didn't like him...smelt a rat...The people who cover that sort of thing up have to answer for themselves.
and Andy..Qanon looks nonsense and a diversion.
A millstone is a very very big stone pushed around on a pole usually by an ox to grind flour...Read on...
Who Is the Greatest?
At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.
Jesus Warns of Offenses
“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes.

crickey I'm being tag teamed by the god squad troika ....... I think I wasn't worthy that time I ordered a 7'7" Gash step up, well Browny at least initially treated me that way until I whipped out my well used 7'4", that had him smiling and diving into a stack of dusty boxes thrown in the corner to check what blank he had used on the 7'4"

I would like an answer on Frank Houston and his conspiring family from optimist if he can muster up the moral fortitude to answer the direct question ..... okay Optimist, what about Brian, allegedly accused of covering up the sins of his father, you know the head dude at Hillsong, he got something to answer for?

My point about this forgiveness thingie, confession for catholics, is it allows people to say and do what they like and in the eyes of like-minded "faithful" all is forgiven .... it excuses the worse in human nature and yet is proffered as a tenet of christian faith (there's that all encompassing word again) ... and yet optimist had the poor grace to dismiss buddhism and the nature of karma as mindless!

Nonsense and a diversion - that's what I'm getting at.

The point is, QAnon offers what regular life doesn’t - a good story complete with heroes and villains.
It helps people make sense of a world that is surreal, generally impossible to control and often increasingly threatening
It’s no surprise that some top commentators call it a new American religion.

I wonder if it will continue on now that Trump is gone?

what do you think Andy?

I don't know about QAnon specifically but it seems to me that conspiracy theories and choosing your own reality as influenced by post-modernism and pop psychology is only just getting started.

To me, Trump was absolutely a symptom not a cause of existing issues.

Guy imagine Brian finding out his old man was molesting young men.
Not something you'd want to advertise...If he covered for him he will have to answer for it...personally I'm not a Hillsong fan but won't judge...and you should already know what I think of Roman Catholicism and I wont answer it again.
I quoted Jesus for you as I thought He said it best, but I'll shorten it down for you just so you get it........" Mess with kids...go drown yourself. "...Jesus.

Optimist, my real point was about the christian notion of god's forgiveness to clean the slate on past wrongs ...... a related issue not yet discussed is how at least in the catholic church they have otherwise innocent young children confess their (so-called) sins to a priest establishing dangerous power imbalances and guilt in innocents for no good reason ... get them young and you have them for life!

".... imagine Brian finding out his old man was molesting young men.
Not something you'd want to advertise.."

Now the law in this area has and is constantly evolving but I remember in the mid 90's calling a meeting with a christian bishop whose diocese ran an aged care facility. The purpose of the meeting was to inform the bishop of the sexual assault of aged care residents by a staff member and giving him a week to provide me evidence he had reported it to the police. Brian Houston as the head of the Hillsong church had spiritual, moral and legal responsibilities to report any alleged sexual abuse within his church, sad as a task like that would have been. The fact that he is alleged to have covered up the details and not report it to police suggests he isn't fit to head up a church.

I am going to put this to all the people above questioning the existence of God.......

If you say there is no God , you have faith that there is no God...where did you get your faith from and what were the facts that used to arrive at your opinion , that there is no God?"

If you believe there is no God well that's your religion based on your faith!

So Guy are you judging all Christians by the Hillsong group...Houston?

Would be like me saying "all white people are pedophiles , because all the people you mentioned here such as priests etc...all seem to be white?"

I don't believe in god because clearly the (lack of) evidence indicates there is no god.
Its not my faith or religion. its just simple science.

extraordinarily claims require extraordinary evidence.

prove it.

Brutus - all / any of your Sins confessed and a clean run into 2021 ?

Brutus - all / any of your Sins confessed and a clean run into 2021 ?

Guy...brutus, care to expand on your concept of faith based facts (your last para @ 9.40)? I find your use of the word "facts" misleading, you surely mean you have unquestioning faith, whatever that means to you, in a doctrine which allows you to accept it as fact when none of can be proven scientifically or any other way.

The facts that I use as a basis to my faith are all included in a Case For Christ , where an atheist , who just happens to be an investigative Journalist , sets out to prove that Jesus did not exist and was certainly not the son of a non existent God.
Lee Strobel then sets out on a quest , to answer all the skeptical questions that non believers offer as proof there is no God/Jesus .
Every question you could ever ask is answered , as he goes around the planet interviewing all the academics who have spent their lives studying all manners of proof...from the Greek 3000 original Gospels that still exist, to Forensic scientists who actually proved the death of Christ , to the 500 witness's who saw Christ after his death.......imagine every question you have is already answered....
As I have previously said .......go and watch the movie "a case for Christ" ......if you really wants some facts on God/Jesus.....

Bonza....."I don't believe in god because clearly the (lack of) evidence indicates there is no god.
Its not my faith or religion. its just simple science.

extraordinarily claims require extraordinary evidence.

prove it."

Western society is based on the Bible ,so after thousands of years of believing now you ask me to prove God exists...I ask you prove to me that God doesn't exist?

Udo....."Brutus - all / any of your Sins confessed and a clean run into 2021 ?"

I would like to think that 2021 will hopefully be as good as 2020....I had a bit of a miracle this year , as in April it was looking like I would struggling to be alive for Xmas as for the 3rd time I got cancer back , with no real treatment available , by July the tumors disappeared and here I am trying to make sense of a crazy secular world , and get my life/business and the eternal question..."Why am I here, and for whom ?"
Every day is a blessing , and things that I thought were important , are now just thoughts of a past life....it's actually really exciting the new adventure and we will see what actions I can take to make myself a better person and help others in need.....
The hardest thing about being a Christian is to "love your enemies" and to be honest with yourself !

“...If you say there is no God , you have faith that there is no God...where did you get your faith from and what were the facts that used to arrive at your opinion , that there is no God?"

You, me, no-one can prove a god’s existence but what separates you from me (and others) is your (unquestioning) faith (that word again) - that your Christian god exists, his teachings are the only ones to follow and (sadly for us all) you need to blubber on about them endlessly to convert others.

Now all this a distraction after we finish with the Christian notions of faith and forgiveness I really want to move onto this relatively new Christian notion of reward - no no not heaven that’s assumed but of earthly riches that these new wave religions preach.

Guy I agree 100%, cover ups are immoral and illegal, certainly not worthy of leadership.... I don't know the full story of how Brian responded...I have no association with that church but I have run into some of the leaders over the years and the ones I met seemed nice. Personally I think Brian's a bit of a chicken and only tough inside his 4 walls. Old Freddie Nile was hardcore...like him or not he spat out in public what he believed...My favorite was when the gays were carrying his head on a platter at the Mardi Gras..very biblical that... I am non denom and have travelled and lived / church fellow-shipped on most of the central, mid and north east coast in NSW and QLD before each town grew too big for me to enjoy. I have been in so many different churches old school and new and nearly all were full of welcoming and loving people, I especially like a good scone from a sweet old lady who treats you like she was ya dear old mum.

you want me to prove that god is not real because you cant prove that he is?

brutus - have a think about how silly that logic is. apply to it all the crazy ideas out there that you don't' believe in.

btw - a case for christ is summarised nicely here
https://theconversation.com/the-case-for-christ-whats-the-evidence-for-t...

that fact is brutus the only proof you have for the existence of god is your love for him or whatever it is. that's cool mate and i'm happy for you. but its not how realists work.