I love Bali

What I don’t get is how many have to hold such extreme and definite views about everything. It’s a significant part of our divergent society. Not many things are certain. Life is mostly about probabilities. If this was the book thread I would recommend Kahnemans Thinking Fast and Slow.
Ease up people. Try not to jump to conclusions about climate change either way based on one photo of a waterfall at Uluwatu. The poster baited the post with the question in the first place and he certainly caught some fish in here and probably doesn’t even know it!

Roystein wrote:

What I don’t get is how many have to hold such extreme and definite views about everything. It’s a significant part of our divergent society. Not many things are certain. Life is mostly about probabilities. If this was the book thread I would recommend Kahnemans Thinking Fast and Slow.
Ease up people. Try not to jump to conclusions about climate change either way based on one photo of a waterfall at Uluwatu. The poster baited the post with the question in the first place and he certainly caught some fish in here and probably doesn’t even know it!

Or you can strip it back to basics.

It’s Bali, it’s the wet season it rains a lot some years and can vary year to year.

The picture of the waterfall is in essence a culmination of many factors, rice paddies that use to hold water are now drained and been built upon., hence greater run-off.

The mass expansion of infrastructure and population base comes with hazards, the greatest one by far is the veneering of more hard surfaces over a great proportion of the island as the sprawl expands and takes in areas that use to absorb water which would normally slowly percolate down through the soil profile.

The more hard surfaced roads and buildings, that now capture water in roof and roadside gutters and fed to streets and culverts at a faster rate than it can flow to the sea simply exacerbate the problem.

Increased visitors and population are driving the whole process. AW

AlfredWallace wrote:

Roystein wrote:

What I don’t get is how many have to hold such extreme and definite views about everything. It’s a significant part of our divergent society. Not many things are certain. Life is mostly about probabilities. If this was the book thread I would recommend Kahnemans Thinking Fast and Slow.
Ease up people. Try not to jump to conclusions about climate change either way based on one photo of a waterfall at Uluwatu. The poster baited the post with the question in the first place and he certainly caught some fish in here and probably doesn’t even know it!

Or you can strip it back to basics.

It’s Bali, it’s the wet season it rains a lot some years and can vary year to year.

The picture of the waterfall is in essence a culmination of many factors, rice paddies that use to hold water are now drained and been built upon., hence greater run-off.

The mass expansion of infrastructure and population base comes with hazards, the greatest one by far is the veneering of more hard surfaces over a great proportion of the island as the sprawl expands and takes in areas that use to absorb water which would normally slowly percolate down through the soil profile.

The more hard surfaced roads and buildings, that now capture water in roof and roadside gutters and fed to streets and culverts at a faster rate than it can flow to the sea simply exacerbate the problem.

Increased visitors and population are driving the whole process. AW

100% agree.

Some real good points there AW they concrete everything in some areas of Indo, then often no gutters, poor drainage systems and often clogged up with rubbish.

Six months of dry silted up drains with rubbish, then bang a good down fall, lots of water with no where to go.

You often see mud slides on Indo news too, they strip areas of vegetation in the dry season all is fine for six months, then a big rain event happens in the wet season and half the hillside slides away into a valley with houses, houses that aren't built to any real building codes either.

Nice post Roystein, and reasoned follow up comments from AW and Indo.
My main concern with the waterfall clip is not the waterfall but the massive scar on the cliff from the development work. Now that's fked up.

Oh yeah that Ullus project is so fucked up, just when you think they cant fuck things up more than they have, they do that crazy shit...so sad.

My first visit to surf in Bali was 1989. As I watch from afar, this once beautiful tranquil idyll has ‘pressure’ applied from all angles and to such an extent it’s hard to see how it will cope in the next five decades.

Examples exist globally in famed tourist destinations where the main driver of problems both social and environmental is population expansion be it local and transient ( holiday makers) . Paradise found, often becomes paradise lost.

Humans, we are a marauding lot.

Good points also Indo regarding the build up of crap in drainage systems during the dry. Out of mind out of sight.

Blackers, I’m with you, that scar on the cliff at Uluwatu is just a mere facsimile of what’s happening all over that island, sad to say the least.

Indo & Blackers, it has been great engaging with you both all year, thoroughly enjoyable.
Hope those renovations go well Indo.
Blackers, hope you get waves and you get to listen to some good music.
Merry Xmas to you and yours. AW

I agree with the sentiment regarding development in Bali. Mother Earth be crying inside. There is still beauty to be found but it’s hard when progress changes what it looks like so quickly. Bali would have to be a case study in rampant development. I still find myself wanting to go back. My first trip was in 2001 and now even that seems like paradise lost compared to now. But you have to park that lens to enjoy what it still has to offer.

Roystein wrote:

I agree with the sentiment regarding development in Bali. Mother Earth be crying inside. There is still beauty to be found but it’s hard when progress changes what it looks like so quickly. Bali would have to be a case study in rampant development. I still find myself wanting to go back. My first trip was in 2001 and now even that seems like paradise lost compared to now. But you have to park that lens to enjoy what it still has to offer.

Roystein. Hi mate.

Wholeheartedly agree brother. Your initial post was spot on, us humans or maybe us Australians are the yeah, nah folks, we flap at the mouth first, then deduce the facts later, for a more calmed response. Merry Xmas, pal. AW

indo-dreaming wrote:

Oh yeah that Ullus project is so fucked up, just when you think they cant fuck things up more than they have, they do that crazy shit...so sad.

yep

the ideas... (with the new blowins in town it seems) are next level crazy...

and plain sad

https://thebalisun.com/world-famous-bali-surf-break-under-threat-due-to-...

sypkan wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

Oh yeah that Ullus project is so fucked up, just when you think they cant fuck things up more than they have, they do that crazy shit...so sad.

yep

the ideas... (with the new blowins in town it seems) are next level crazy...

and plain sad

https://thebalisun.com/world-famous-bali-surf-break-under-threat-due-to-...

Sypkan. Hi mate. Hope ya well.

Crazy stuff indeed. I don’t know about you, but I have this mental picture of places I’ve visited, visit and about to visit.
Just when you think, yep, this looks good, hasn’t gone too far regarding development, then all of a sudden some unworthy and blatantly stupid idea gets put forward for planning permission.
We need to take a step backwards these days, more than we need to take steps forward, otherwise hard infrastructure versus natural biota will be so heavily skewed that the planet will have very places of solace and environmental harmony left for us all to enjoy. No life on a dead planet. Just my thoughts. Merry Xmas mate. AW

Edit. Can Russians build anything in Bali without the gross use of massive concrete structures like their original homeland ?
It’s like the Stalinisation of Bali.
For what it’s worth 5% of all the energy used on earth today goes into making concrete, let alone the embodied energy used in the extractive industries to get the raw materials out of the ground.
How about a bit of mandate in Bali that structures are built somewhat commensurate with the original style, instead of raising temperatures in may prove to keep them static.

sypkan wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

Oh yeah that Ullus project is so fucked up, just when you think they cant fuck things up more than they have, they do that crazy shit...so sad.

yep

the ideas... (with the new blowins in town it seems) are next level crazy...

and plain sad

https://thebalisun.com/world-famous-bali-surf-break-under-threat-due-to-...

Yep the floating restaurant reaches new levels of stupidity.

If it is not destroyed by swell I would be surprised, and if Keramas break is wrecked, forget it, no one will be going there. Also lots of ghosts on that coast.

Haven't surfed keramas since about 2006, was lucky enough to get some time there before it opened up late 90's early 00's
Maybe memory has it wrong but reckon it was better back then, not as sectiony....
Didn't that divert Creek for Kommune?

agree aw, the russos love their concrete

but then again, seems the euros do too... with the 'mediterranean' style now dominating the island...

but the russos love the full concrete box, I was surprised when I saw a pic. of that parq development that got shut down in ubud, I pictured some array of buildings amongst the rice fields... but nah, just a multi story concrete box...

shut down until 'correct permits' are obtained... (it was built in a rice field - there is no correct permit)

translation: the corruption money originally paid, needs to go up another level of governance or it will remain closed

(half answers your question)

apparently there are building codes in place where development should fit in with local style and architecture

but...

I may be biased, but it seems to me the original aussie investors tried to fit in a bit more, and did things a bit more tastefully - maybe because we enjoy a similar style of indoor / outdoor living - or maybe the aussies were just more modest and not as corrupt...

anyway, it's all concrete box villas (and even apartment complexes) with Ibiza on steroids beach clubs now

even the aussies seem to have jumped on the band wagon

I was late to the keramas party - totally missed the 'gold'

but first few times I went there was pre komune, and agree, it seemed less sectiony

pretty sure swellnet or stab ran an article on it

AlfredWallace wrote:

sypkan wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

Oh yeah that Ullus project is so fucked up, just when you think they cant fuck things up more than they have, they do that crazy shit...so sad.

yep

the ideas... (with the new blowins in town it seems) are next level crazy...

and plain sad

https://thebalisun.com/world-famous-bali-surf-break-under-threat-due-to-...

Sypkan. Hi mate. Hope ya well.

Crazy stuff indeed. I don’t know about you, but I have this mental picture of places I’ve visited, visit and about to visit.
Just when you think, yep, this looks good, hasn’t gone too far regarding development, then all of a sudden some unworthy and blatantly stupid idea gets put forward for planning permission.
We need to take a step backwards these days, more than we need to take steps forward, otherwise hard infrastructure versus natural biota will be so heavily skewed that the planet will have very places of solace and environmental harmony left for us all to enjoy. No life on a dead planet. Just my thoughts. Merry Xmas mate. AW

Edit. Can Russians build anything in Bali without the gross use of massive concrete structures like their original homeland ?
It’s like the Stalinisation of Bali.
For what it’s worth 5% of all the energy used on earth today goes into making concrete, let alone the embodied energy used in the extractive industries to get the raw materials out of the ground.
How about a bit of mandate in Bali that structures are built somewhat commensurate with the original style, instead of raising temperatures in may prove to keep them static.

Agreed AW, the future is to take a step backwards.
Shame there's no measure to add "less" to GDP.

sypkan wrote:

agree aw, the russos love their concrete

but then again, seems the euros do too... with the 'mediterranean' style now dominating the island...

but the russos love the full concrete box, I was surprised when I saw a pic. of that parq development that got shut down in ubud, I pictured some array of buildings amongst the rice fields... but nah, just a multi story concrete box...

shut down until 'correct permits' are obtained... (it was built in a rice field - there is no correct permit)

translation: the corruption money originally paid, needs to go up another level of governance or it will remain closed

(half answers your question)

apparently there are building codes in place where development should fit in with local style and architecture

but...

I may be biased, but it seems to me the original aussie investors tried to fit in a bit more, and did things a bit more tastefully - maybe because we enjoy a similar style if indoor / outdoor living - or maybe the aussies were just more modest and not as corrupt...

anyway, it's all concrete box villas (and even apartment complexes) with Ibiza on steroids beach clubs now

even the aussies seem to have jumped on the band wagon

Sypkan. Hi.

The Euros are all about bricks and mortar or stone and mortar, veneered with render or bagging, still hot boxes on hot days, at least not concrete monoliths.

Corruption still drives everything on Bali as you know.
I guy I know was riding a motorbike with his wife on the back, copper asked him to pull over, he refused because he a party substance in his boardies pocket, he wanted no trouble, pleaded to his lady to pull an Oz $50 out , passed it over and off the copper zoomed. That easy.
I sure it’s been that way for a long time with planning, bigger coin involved obviously.
From afar it does appear to be getting better, I know a couple of places I visit in Sumatra, the Head of the district pulls no punches when it comes to maintaining Indonesian building integrity. AW

It’s not just Bali that’s getting developed . When I was in west sumba a few months ago , accommodation was either a homestay for $35 AUD night including 3 very basic meals , very hard to find one that wasn’t booked out with euro backpackers . The other was high end ranging from $200 to $750 AUD per night. If you don’t stay somewhere that has a decent boat then it’s a bit of a hassle . Amed has also been discovered by the “ beautiful people “ with high end resorts/clubs . Lembongan is going mental with development as is ceningan . This is s new glamping place on ceningan, $400 a night is a discounted price apparently . https://www.arnabali.com/

further to the above, saw a fb photo of 'mick's place' last week...

reduced to rubble on the ground

dunno if his lease is up or what...

but guaranteed a multi story box is on it's way

sypkan wrote:

further to the above, saw a fb photo of 'mick's place' last week...

reduced to rubble on the ground

dunno if his lease is up or what...

but guaranteed a multi story box is on it's way

He sold up , building down at Rote , I heard Chinese brought his old place but not 100% sure.

The rampant, unsustainable tourist development is spreading far and wide in Indonesia. I’m in Katiet at the moment and I’m gobsmacked by the changes that have occurred since I was last here a year ago: more surfers (some from landlocked European countries!?) more white concrete villas, more land clearing, more swampland being filled with earth carved from hillsides in the jungle and even longterm plans to build a road right around the peninsula. It’s heartbreaking. A local guy said it’s going to become more and more like Bali. Overhearing conversations in the HTs resort restaurant, it seems the Canggu and Bukit crowd are heading this way more often. Time to move on methinks…

Euros love Indo at this time of year, good thing is most cant surf that well.

One quake and a reef lift down at HT's area and that wave could be gone, same with Maccas.

It's not just surfing areas or even tourist areas, it's all over Indo i met my wife 20 years's ago and did a novelty guided bike ride thorough the rice paddies and villages not far from her house, where i rode is now a concrete jungle huge shopping centres and house's that in Australia would be worth million's, and to get to the rice paddies and villages now you have to drive much further

It all sucks, but you just have to enjoy what you can, even in Bali there is still places and area's that are more like the old Bali of say 20 years ago or so.

Same with elsewhere in Indo, there is still special spots, it does suck though when you are in the middle of nowhere and its crowded, especially B grade waves, but then other days it can be perfect and empty.

I also think you have to remember how lucky we are to be born in a developed country and lucky enough to be able to travel the world and surf, even if we whinge about development and crowds, instead of being born as one of the poorer locals, trying to get by and put a meal on the table or put kids through school.

I remember the first Christmas at my wife's families house when i was dating her, there was a Christmas tree with boxes wrapped under the tree, and id already gone and brought her mum and brother & sister gifts not for Christmas as such more just spoiling her brother with a playstation etc and already given them too them.

And I didnt have anything wrapped up to put under the tree, and i was kind of stressing thinking shit i better get something i guess, but the reality was those boxes under the tree were empty, just boxes just for decoration, there was. no unwrapping of gifts at Christmas because they and others didn't (or dont) have that disposable income to give gifts.

AndyM wrote:

AlfredWallace wrote:

sypkan wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

Oh yeah that Ullus project is so fucked up, just when you think they cant fuck things up more than they have, they do that crazy shit...so sad.

yep

the ideas... (with the new blowins in town it seems) are next level crazy...

and plain sad

https://thebalisun.com/world-famous-bali-surf-break-under-threat-due-to-...

Sypkan. Hi mate. Hope ya well.

Crazy stuff indeed. I don’t know about you, but I have this mental picture of places I’ve visited, visit and about to visit.
Just when you think, yep, this looks good, hasn’t gone too far regarding development, then all of a sudden some unworthy and blatantly stupid idea gets put forward for planning permission.
We need to take a step backwards these days, more than we need to take steps forward, otherwise hard infrastructure versus natural biota will be so heavily skewed that the planet will have very places of solace and environmental harmony left for us all to enjoy. No life on a dead planet. Just my thoughts. Merry Xmas mate. AW

Edit. Can Russians build anything in Bali without the gross use of massive concrete structures like their original homeland ?
It’s like the Stalinisation of Bali.
For what it’s worth 5% of all the energy used on earth today goes into making concrete, let alone the embodied energy used in the extractive industries to get the raw materials out of the ground.
How about a bit of mandate in Bali that structures are built somewhat commensurate with the original style, instead of raising temperatures in may prove to keep them static.

Agreed AW, the future is to take a step backwards.
Shame there's no measure to add "less" to GDP.

AndyM. Hi fella .

Good point.
I’ve become very unsure and dumbfounded by humans in ‘developing’ countries, the lack of the innate ability to foresee problems that lay ahead of us before we commit to any form of natural destruction and loss.

(Big Yellow Taxi- Joni Mitchell), she nudged and reminded us, but we didn’t listen.

What will we be like 50-100 years from now. Why have we lost this vision? Why don’t we follow or behave like ours and other countries indigenous forebears who valued, nurtured and savoured their lands ? When did this disconnection occur ?

I’m very interested in the drivers of this diversion away from sensibility .
Was it a slow genetically driven process, borne out of competition for basics like food, water and shelter and later did it become competition for territories and ultimately perceived ‘wealth’ even way back then.

My theory is that humans have evolved into way more leisurely critters than hundreds of years ago, with a no holds barred type mentality, where you sink coin into a development , disregard the environmental outcomes, which it appears easier to do in developing countries, you hear people say, oh, it’s only a small parcel of land taken from a natural system.
Problem is, it’s a catalytic effect, every man and his dog wants a piece of the pie.
Precedents become entrenched and before you know it, whole ecosystems are being corrupted and removed.
We only have to look at two recent examples at home here , that wheat grain fucker who cleared all that vegetation and it’s systems in QLD , an area reportedly the size of Sydney Airport and one in southern NSW where the developers just helped themselves to an entire forest so as to expand ‘their’ horizons.

What kind of people has our societies produced that act in this manner ?
And why are our governments not held accountable, I get sick of repeating myself.

It’s becoming extremely disappointing living in a country that has such a ‘blaze’ approach to its living systems. Enough is enough. AW

“Also think we just have to be happy that we are born lucky enough to be able to travel the world and surf, and whinge about development and crowds, instead of being born as one of the poorer locals, trying to get by and put a meal on the table or put kids through school”
So true Indo. Being surrounded by so much poverty puts things in perspective. I think we have a lot to learn from people who have so little but give so much and are seemingly happy with their lives. I hope you and your family have a merry xmas mate.

overthefalls wrote:

“Also think we just have to be happy that we are born lucky enough to be able to travel the world and surf, and whinge about development and crowds, instead of being born as one of the poorer locals, trying to get by and put a meal on the table or put kids through school”
So true Indo. Being surrounded by so much poverty puts things in perspective. I think we have a lot to learn from people who have so little but give so much and are seemingly happy with their lives. I hope you and your family have a merry xmas mate.

Overthefalls. Good feedback. We are lucky folk in a very lucky country that’s for sure.
Still doesn’t resolve this endless global clearing of natural systems, it will be the demise of all of us at some stage, our mere existence was chance at best.

I’ve often wondered what it would be like to be married to a woman from a different culture in a less developed country especially SE Asia, always interested me as to how they think about the land, culture and the natural environment.
Maybe IndoDreaming would shed some light on that. Merry Xmas mate. AW

AlfredWallace wrote:

overthefalls wrote:

“Also think we just have to be happy that we are born lucky enough to be able to travel the world and surf, and whinge about development and crowds, instead of being born as one of the poorer locals, trying to get by and put a meal on the table or put kids through school”
So true Indo. Being surrounded by so much poverty puts things in perspective. I think we have a lot to learn from people who have so little but give so much and are seemingly happy with their lives. I hope you and your family have a merry xmas mate.

Overthefalls. Good feedback. We are lucky folk in a very lucky country that’s for sure.
Still doesn’t resolve this endless global clearing of natural systems, it will be the demise of all of us at some stage, our mere existence was chance at best.

I’ve often wondered what it would be like to be married to a woman from a different culture in a less developed country especially SE Asia, always interested me as to how they think about the land, culture and the natural environment.
Maybe IndoDreaming would shed some light on that. Merry Xmas mate. AW

I can shed some light AW. I was married to a woman from a south-east Asian country where I worked for several years. She didn’t place any value on the natural environment and judging by the environmental destruction I witnessed there, neither did most of her compatriots. Illustrative of this is when we moved to Australia, we were looking for some land on which to build a home. I chose a block with virgin forest while she preferred a clear-felled block. Of course she got her own way but I ended up revegetating the block with thousands of local rainforest trees. Our marriage didn’t last but at least my jungle is thriving!

hope you're having the good time @overtf, here's a re-phrasing of a question a mate posed from an african holiday: "If the wifi drops out while you're at HTs with a beer, waiting for the Right tide.. is that a first world problem, or third world problem?"

overthefalls wrote:

AlfredWallace wrote:

overthefalls wrote:

“Also think we just have to be happy that we are born lucky enough to be able to travel the world and surf, and whinge about development and crowds, instead of being born as one of the poorer locals, trying to get by and put a meal on the table or put kids through school”
So true Indo. Being surrounded by so much poverty puts things in perspective. I think we have a lot to learn from people who have so little but give so much and are seemingly happy with their lives. I hope you and your family have a merry xmas mate.

Overthefalls. Good feedback. We are lucky folk in a very lucky country that’s for sure.
Still doesn’t resolve this endless global clearing of natural systems, it will be the demise of all of us at some stage, our mere existence was chance at best.

I’ve often wondered what it would be like to be married to a woman from a different culture in a less developed country especially SE Asia, always interested me as to how they think about the land, culture and the natural environment.
Maybe IndoDreaming would shed some light on that. Merry Xmas mate. AW

I can shed some light AW. I was married to a woman from a south-east Asian country where I worked for several years. She didn’t place any value on the natural environment and judging by the environmental destruction I witnessed there, neither did most of her compatriots. Illustrative of this is when we moved to Australia, we were looking for some land on which to build a home. I chose a block with virgin forest while she preferred a clear-felled block. Of course she got her own way but I ended up revegetating the block with thousands of local rainforest trees. Our marriage didn’t last but at least my jungle is thriving!

Overthefalls. Thanks, very interesting indeed.

Glad to hear your jungle survived, I’d value that more than a marriage any day.

I’m married to the biological world, have been since I was four years old. I stared out the classroom window and dreamt of what’s out there. Couldn’t wait to go outside. Some of us are like that.
Had a Chinese client in Melbourne years ago, he had the mentality that everything is for the taking, chop everything down , dig up all minerals, kill all animals of value for food. Money and wealth is more important than anything.
Hence we only worked at his place once.

In reality, you can’t really blame third world countries for rape and pillaging of their forests , digging up vast quantities of minerals, etc, They’ve watched us do it for decades and see the wealth generated and say, I want a piece of that as well, thank you. AW

basesix wrote:

hope you're having the good time @overtf, here's a re-phrasing of a question a mate posed from an african holiday: "If the wifi drops out while you're at HTs with a beer, waiting for the Right tide.. is that a first world problem, or third world problem?"

Basesix. I’d say it’s ’your own problem’.
FWIW at Lances Right the power use to drop out daily, when last there, a new cable was been erected right above ya head on our road to the other side of the island, watching the locals install it was hilarious, safety, no problem mister !!AW

haha, four blokes on each other's shoulders?
(couldn't agree more, AW, the gall of the developed world telling off SE Asia and Sth America for development and deforestation and depriving us of the planet's remaining lungs.. and taking habitat from reclusive creatures, while we let mammals and amphibians go extinct daily. developed world governments and gazillionaires need to share our gains from our deforesting and damage, and pay them for their forests preservation. Be better than funding militaries.)