The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
southernraw wrote:It's an easy way to degrade an argument when someone is showing genuine empathy for a minority group and is trying to push for constructive ideas that might benefit that group. Calling that person woke straight away undermines the goodwill that someone is showing and also kills off any momentum towards solutions. Lazy is an understatement. It's a sad sign of the times and it's the easiest way for individuals to withdraw and silence a discussion on a topic that they'll be loud and opinionated about but have little actual knowledge of.
And good to see the trash got taken out this morning. Good riddance.
it would seem giggles has been given a reprieve , I saw the red circles and thought the same but stu has had a change of heart , to be honest it would have been a bit rough but hopefully he gets the message .
southernraw wrote:It's an easy way to degrade an argument when someone is showing genuine empathy for a minority group and is trying to push for constructive ideas that might benefit that group. Calling that person woke straight away undermines the goodwill that someone is showing and also kills off any momentum towards solutions. Lazy is an understatement. It's a sad sign of the times and it's the easiest way for individuals to withdraw and silence a discussion on a topic that they'll be loud and opinionated about but have little actual knowledge of.
And good to see the trash got taken out this morning. Good riddance.
True. But by the very same token, some people who reject typically woke answers, but do so from a sound intellectual position, rightfully bristle at being called racist or homophobe or transphobe or whatever.
The progressive left are often blithely ignorant of that.
As I get older I increasingly value collective responses over individual needs. The rise of the individual is closely traced to neoliberal values and the degradation of cultural values. We're a co-operative species, never in our history have individuals survived leave alone flourished, so we do away with co-operation and shared projects to our detriment.
Feels to me like some people want to keep fracturing culture and society into ever smaller constituent parts. On one hand people feel the need to do it to 'help minorities'. On the other hand it's just what Big Tech and the neolibs want us to do. Distil us down to individual units.
The other way? Treat all people fairly. Don't put anyone into a silo. If you believe in the nation state then let that be the lowest divisible category.
Religion thread get canned?
Back pages now Goofy.
goofyfoot wrote:Religion thread get canned?
It's there, just not prominent on the homepage.
No, just not on the home page. Too much woke Vs anti-woke activity. Too many people Woking it into a frenzy. So much woke it became a joke.
Ya woking me?
stunet wrote:southernraw wrote:It's an easy way to degrade an argument when someone is showing genuine empathy for a minority group and is trying to push for constructive ideas that might benefit that group. Calling that person woke straight away undermines the goodwill that someone is showing and also kills off any momentum towards solutions. Lazy is an understatement. It's a sad sign of the times and it's the easiest way for individuals to withdraw and silence a discussion on a topic that they'll be loud and opinionated about but have little actual knowledge of.
And good to see the trash got taken out this morning. Good riddance.True. But by the very same token, some people who reject typically woke answers, but do so from a sound intellectual position, rightfully bristle at being called racist or homophobe or transphobe or whatever.
The progressive left are often blithely ignorant of that.
As I get older I increasingly value collective responses over individual needs. The rise of the individual is closely traced to neoliberal values and the degradation of cultural values. We're a co-operative species, never in our history have individuals survived leave alone flourished, so we do away with co-operation and shared projects to our detriment.
Feels to me like some people want to keep fracturing culture and society into ever smaller constituent parts. On one hand people feel the need to do it to 'help minorities'. On the other hand it's just what Big Tech and the neolibs want us to do. Distil us down to individual units.
The other way? Treat all people fairly. Don't put anyone into a silo. If you believe in the nation state then let that be the lowest divisible category.
Yup pretty wise words there and guilty on many fronts. I guess when we get affronted with a negative rejecttion of what we believe are good intentions, we can tend to bristle and a resultant retaliatory attack results. I guess thats the key. Managing those bloody emotions...the monsters that they can be.
I'm totally cool with being an Ewok.
stunet wrote:I'm totally cool with being an Ewok.
Is that when you use electronic means to establish your position on woke? As in “ his social media is E-woke”.
Or is it being short and fury and involved in rebellion.
Island Bay wrote:What do you suggest instead, Stu? Yes, it's a bit annoying, but in its defence nobody is in doubt what you mean.
Yep with just one word you can get the jist of things that otherwise would need a whole paragraph to explain.
;)
- probly depends on whether you're spreading 'woke' disinformation
... or just making shit up (even if its 'information based' of course)
;);)
https://m.
&pp=ygUeZ3JlYXQgc291dGhlcm4gbGFuZCBhYm9yaWdpbmFs The irony is, that word managed to wipe away a discussion about what was a brilliant paper.
Accused of being woke and Amerucan, was actually an academic paper based on sit down with an indigenous fella.As in first hand account.
Go figure.
yeh, she cray cray, hey? cute that she looks like ricky gervais' Derek in the thumbnail though ^.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-29/fact-check-mabo-decision-high-cou...
("Private property held under freehold title, such as your house and backyard, has already had any native title extinguished under Australian law.
Native title claims can only be made on Crown land, though this land may be covered by a pastoral lease or other interests that are deemed by law to prevail over native title.
But even in the case of pastoral leases, the High Court's 1996 Wik decision found that the rights of pastoralists and native title holders can co-exist, and that when they are in conflict, the rights of the leaseholder prevail over those of the native title holder.")
Urgh...that videos a little too much before my second morning coffee.
udo wrote:
64% of oz agree with pauline, the n.t. election is proof(?).
Netive titje means that b4 any development it MUST be given approval by the aboriginal owners
So the developers do a deal and have the ok and it's confidential??
There are "deals" done where neighbouring mobs contest the validity of the "process" and it creates division and animosity.
Fnp canberra ruleing elite are demanding $$$ % of profits for the mob only,
This is not closeing the gap it is divisive and devious.
stunet wrote:ashsam wrote:southernraw wrote:@ashsam this is worth a read to get a different perspective.
https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/amet.13223lol ;) American??
Wokeness at it's best not surprised ;)https://anthrosource.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/amet.13194
Just don't say 'woke'. It's the dumbest of dumb epithets. It's always painted the speaker as an idiot, and frankly, it's testing my patience.
Hi stu this woke word and meaning allways baffled me? untill a few years ago and it is coz of swellnut that i eventually figured it out.
And a week ago i saw it explained in a brilliant way...here it is...
Quote: "wokeness":-refers to a contempory ideology rooted in critical theory, race, and identity politics, often infused with elements of marxism, which emphasises a hierarchial view of victimhood and collective identity.
This ideology tends to prioritize group identities over individual agency, leading to an over emphasis on identity categories such as race, gender, and sexual orientation.
Critics argue that "wokeness" fosters a culture of victimhood, promotes intollerance towards differing points of view (commonly known as "cancel culture") and undermines the principles of meritocracy.
Furthermore it is often associted with policies and practices that prioritize diversity over qualifications, potentially leading to reverse discrimination and the devaluation of excellence and achievement."...unquote.
Don't know who said it, however you being in the media now you know it's meaning, relevance please inform your colleagues and peers.
P.S. good on u stu for swellnet and it's free speach platform and the civil discourse of all topics that you try to mediate,
Cheers.
Yeah nah. Native Title wasn’t an issue voters were concerned about.
Crime, housing crisis, health system and domestic violence amongst others were the issues.
Didn’t read or hear anything about Native Title
;)
https://m.
seeds wrote:Yeah nah. Native Title wasn’t an issue voters were concerned about.
Crime, housing crisis, health system and domestic violence amongst others were the issues.
Didn’t read or hear anything about Native Title
Wrong seeds, native title was a big part of it and i mentioned d.v. about13mnths back on this forum and recieved an abusive denial of said statement by a current swellnutter who now says nothing when it's mentioned.
The fnp ruleing elite have been in denial about d.v. it's the voice of 12mnths campaign that woke ppl up to the institutionlised corruption of othe"aboriginal industrial corporation"and the secrecy of it's shenanikens.
Oh and 64% of pop agree with me...no offence meant the voice reffo proves it.
Jelly Flater wrote:;)
Jelly will watch later, however the title refering to changeing ones mind happened to me 30yrs ago.....
I was on a construction site in vicco about 1985? and the wharfies were on strike, patrick stevedores, and jeff kennet was premier, i hated him personally and the liberals.
I believed labor was for workers and libs bad.
One day hutted up (rain) and in paper an interview with jeff about the long ongoing wharf picket and he said how the day b4 he was approached by patrick who was peeved off with m.u.a. as was jeff and he asked for the premier to order the riot police to forcibly break the picket line.
This is no bull, and jeff immediately refused and said it is not for a govt to instruct it's police to take sides in a peacefull protest, or words to that effect and patrick must resolve through the industrial courtss etc...true story.
My opinion of him changed from contempt to respect, i still voted labour at elections though, ha!
Then covid happened and despot dan ordered his riot mob to fire rubber bullets as the crowd was leaving and the voice reffo labor debacle.
Never vote labor again nothing but a bunch of fakes and orwellian attitude and everyone i know who were labor...not no more.
Give us some proof Native Title was a big part of it. Any links?
sameaswas wrote:udo wrote:64% of oz agree with pauline, the n.t. election is proof(?).
Netive titje means that b4 any development it MUST be given approval by the aboriginal owners
So the developers do a deal and have the ok and it's confidential??
There are "deals" done where neighbouring mobs contest the validity of the "process" and it creates division and animosity.
Fnp canberra ruleing elite are demanding $$$ % of profits for the mob only,This is not closeing the gap it is divisive and devious.
I"m guessing the swellnutter you mentioned above might be me @sameaswas? The reason i haven't gone down that road is it takes away from what i've said all along is the bigger issue of what came before the DV, that being the trauma. This thread was created to discuss if, what and how to make reparations for that past trauma. That's where my interest in the topic lays.
I actually agree with some of this particular post. Money will create division. Throwing money at a problem will never fix it and can only create more problems.
What i'm interested in, and what was a key part of the whole Voice campaign, was the education sector and finding a way that is more suitable and valid to teach young indigenous kids. Currently the only real option is the education system that we all went through, that caters to a Western ideology, and assumes the kids learning through it are from that Western outlook. But it's clearly not the case with young aboriginal kids and it clearly isn't working. The trauma i mentioned above is interwoven throughout the daily, monthly and yearly learnings and it can only build up another layer of resentment and alienation.
Anyway, cheers. Hope that clears up my perspective and where i'm coming from on it.
southernraw wrote:sameaswas wrote:udo wrote:64% of oz agree with pauline, the n.t. election is proof(?).
Netive titje means that b4 any development it MUST be given approval by the aboriginal owners
So the developers do a deal and have the ok and it's confidential??
There are "deals" done where neighbouring mobs contest the validity of the "process" and it creates division and animosity.
Fnp canberra ruleing elite are demanding $$$ % of profits for the mob only,This is not closeing the gap it is divisive and devious.
Currently the only real option is the education system that we all went through, that caters to a Western ideology, and assumes the kids learning through it are from that Western outlook. But it's clearly not the case with young aboriginal kids and it clearly isn't working.
Western ideology?
Then why is it that those from many Asian countries (generally India, & Chinese) are actually the most successful in education systems in pretty much all western countries.
It's not that they are genetically smarter it's that they have a culture where they value education highly and have high levels of discipline and work ethic.
You will see the same pattern in low incarceration rates and low rates of fatherlessness in these communities, even among recent immigrants with lower incomes etc
The whole tiger mum thing is real, im married to one.
Sorry Indo. With all due respect, i don't see any point discussing anything with you on this topic. I thought we'd already reached that agreement? In your words....'there's no point going over and over this'.
So might just leave it at that.
Maybe spend more time with your tiger mum than you do online.
Indo
I’d say that is, in essence, the western ideology.
They are racing right along with us these days with the same ideals.
And your comments are highly racist.
- noinfo peter on the prowl again ;)
https://m.
&pp=ygUUR2VuZXRpY2FsbHkgcmVhdHJkZWQ%3D I'm trying to be polite and respectful on these forums to all but fark me, this 'gerbil' as so eloquently and perfectly put by JF just keeps asking for it.
Getting in ahead of it here.
Southernraw: If you don't want to reply then don't reply. It really is as simple as that.
Seeds: Not sure why the leap to calling someone racist - it should be the very last resort. Also not sure how you've deduced him to be racist from that statement. The elements that ID pointed out are differences between one culture and another, and the same thing can be said via statistics. Are they racist?
JF: Stop the nonsense trolling videos.
Jelly Flater wrote:- noinfo peter on the prowl again ;)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fb9dV_DP5NI&pp=ygUUR2VuZXRpY2FsbHkgcmVhdHJ...
haha and this. Exactly!!
Yeah fair enough Stu, however, like i said, it was in his words 'no point us going over the same old ground' ...which makes me wonder why he dropped in ...to go over the same old ground, if not to just bombard another thread with his wisdom.
Anyway, no worries. Let the protected one at it. No skin off my back.
“You will see the same pattern in low incarceration rates and low rates of fatherlessness in these communities, even among recent immigrants with lower incomes etc”
Sounds pretty racist to me. Implying?
Sounds like what I heard growing up.
Useless …. Good for nothing. Don’t want to work. Belong in jail.
seeds wrote:Indo
I’d say that is, in essence, the western ideology.
They are racing right along with us these days with the same ideals.
And your comments are highly racist.
The point is thats it's not a western ideology, and its not an Asian or Eastern ideology either, i mean valuing education isn't really an ideology.
And just because you dont like certain points doesn't make them racist, the stats showing differences in achievements of different groups or incarceration rates or rates of fatherliness etc are very real.
Many will debate this is about income etc giving a social advantage to some extent this can be true, and is a little bit chicken or egg.
But we also do see that certain immigrant groups that settle in developed countries still achieve at high levels even when they come from very poor disadvantaged backgrounds in the country they left. (of course we are talking generally speaking or overall)
Much of this and things like cultures not being equal has all been talked about by many great minds people like Jordan Peterson or Konstan kitin etc
Anyway i will try to leave it there and step away from this conversation as just wanted to make the point.
;)
https://m.
https://m.
southernraw wrote:sameaswas wrote:udo wrote:64% of oz agree with pauline, the n.t. election is proof(?).
Netive titje means that b4 any development it MUST be given approval by the aboriginal owners
So the developers do a deal and have the ok and it's confidential??
There are "deals" done where neighbouring mobs contest the validity of the "process" and it creates division and animosity.
Fnp canberra ruleing elite are demanding $$$ % of profits for the mob only,This is not closeing the gap it is divisive and devious.
I"m guessing the swellnutter you mentioned above might be me @sameaswas? The reason i haven't gone down that road is it takes away from what i've said all along is the bigger issue of what came before the DV, that being the trauma. This thread was created to discuss if, what and how to make reparations for that past trauma. That's where my interest in the topic lays.
I actually agree with some of this particular post. Money will create division. Throwing money at a problem will never fix it and can only create more problems.
What i'm interested in, and what was a key part of the whole Voice campaign, was the education sector and finding a way that is more suitable and valid to teach young indigenous kids. Currently the only real option is the education system that we all went through, that caters to a Western ideology, and assumes the kids learning through it are from that Western outlook. But it's clearly not the case with young aboriginal kids and it clearly isn't working. The trauma i mentioned above is interwoven throughout the daily, monthly and yearly learnings and it can only build up another layer of resentment and alienation.
Anyway, cheers. Hope that clears up my perspective and where i'm coming from on it.
Thanks southern i agree with your sentiments, education as jacinta price talks about, past present and future.
We want an answer to why and how we came to such state and wheres damoney gone?
The whole system needs a shake up especially the old canberra tent city angry bitter warped and twisted mob...please retire, they are the problem not the solution.
sameaswas wrote:southernraw wrote:sameaswas wrote:udo wrote:64% of oz agree with pauline, the n.t. election is proof(?).
Netive titje means that b4 any development it MUST be given approval by the aboriginal owners
So the developers do a deal and have the ok and it's confidential??
There are "deals" done where neighbouring mobs contest the validity of the "process" and it creates division and animosity.
Fnp canberra ruleing elite are demanding $$$ % of profits for the mob only,This is not closeing the gap it is divisive and devious.
I"m guessing the swellnutter you mentioned above might be me @sameaswas? The reason i haven't gone down that road is it takes away from what i've said all along is the bigger issue of what came before the DV, that being the trauma. This thread was created to discuss if, what and how to make reparations for that past trauma. That's where my interest in the topic lays.
I actually agree with some of this particular post. Money will create division. Throwing money at a problem will never fix it and can only create more problems.
What i'm interested in, and what was a key part of the whole Voice campaign, was the education sector and finding a way that is more suitable and valid to teach young indigenous kids. Currently the only real option is the education system that we all went through, that caters to a Western ideology, and assumes the kids learning through it are from that Western outlook. But it's clearly not the case with young aboriginal kids and it clearly isn't working. The trauma i mentioned above is interwoven throughout the daily, monthly and yearly learnings and it can only build up another layer of resentment and alienation.
Anyway, cheers. Hope that clears up my perspective and where i'm coming from on it.Thanks southern i agree with your sentiments, education as jacinta price talks about, past present and future.
We want an answer to why and how we came to such state and wheres damoney gone?
The whole system needs a shake up especially the old canberra tent city angry bitter warped and twisted mob...please retire, they are the problem not the solution.
haha i see what you did there
Clearly we are not on the same page, not even reading from the same book.
Wishing you well all the same. You probably need it more than most.
southernraw wrote:sameaswas wrote:southernraw wrote:sameaswas wrote:udo wrote:64% of oz agree with pauline, the n.t. election is proof(?).
Wow...true to form insult and put down in last sentence.
Netive titje means that b4 any development it MUST be given approval by the aboriginal owners
So the developers do a deal and have the ok and it's confidential??
There are "deals" done where neighbouring mobs contest the validity of the "process" and it creates division and animosity.
Fnp canberra ruleing elite are demanding $$$ % of profits for the mob only,This is not closeing the gap it is divisive and devious.
I"m guessing the swellnutter you mentioned above might be me @sameaswas? The reason i haven't gone down that road is it takes away from what i've said all along is the bigger issue of what came before the DV, that being the trauma. This thread was created to discuss if, what and how to make reparations for that past trauma. That's where my interest in the topic lays.
I actually agree with some of this particular post. Money will create division. Throwing money at a problem will never fix it and can only create more problems.
What i'm interested in, and what was a key part of the whole Voice campaign, was the education sector and finding a way that is more suitable and valid to teach young indigenous kids. Currently the only real option is the education system that we all went through, that caters to a Western ideology, and assumes the kids learning through it are from that Western outlook. But it's clearly not the case with young aboriginal kids and it clearly isn't working. The trauma i mentioned above is interwoven throughout the daily, monthly and yearly learnings and it can only build up another layer of resentment and alienation.
Anyway, cheers. Hope that clears up my perspective and where i'm coming from on it.Thanks southern i agree with your sentiments, education as jacinta price talks about, past present and future.
We want an answer to why and how we came to such state and wheres damoney gone?
The whole system needs a shake up especially the old canberra tent city angry bitter warped and twisted mob...please retire, they are the problem not the solution.
haha i see what you did there
Clearly we are not on the same page, not even reading from the same book.
Wishing you well all the same. You probably need it more than most.
sameaswas wrote:southernraw wrote:sameaswas wrote:southernraw wrote:sameaswas wrote:udo wrote:64% of oz agree with pauline, the n.t. election is proof(?).
Wow...true to form insult and put down in last sentence.
Netive titje means that b4 any development it MUST be given approval by the aboriginal owners
So the developers do a deal and have the ok and it's confidential??
There are "deals" done where neighbouring mobs contest the validity of the "process" and it creates division and animosity.
Fnp canberra ruleing elite are demanding $$$ % of profits for the mob only,This is not closeing the gap it is divisive and devious.
I"m guessing the swellnutter you mentioned above might be me @sameaswas? The reason i haven't gone down that road is it takes away from what i've said all along is the bigger issue of what came before the DV, that being the trauma. This thread was created to discuss if, what and how to make reparations for that past trauma. That's where my interest in the topic lays.
I actually agree with some of this particular post. Money will create division. Throwing money at a problem will never fix it and can only create more problems.
What i'm interested in, and what was a key part of the whole Voice campaign, was the education sector and finding a way that is more suitable and valid to teach young indigenous kids. Currently the only real option is the education system that we all went through, that caters to a Western ideology, and assumes the kids learning through it are from that Western outlook. But it's clearly not the case with young aboriginal kids and it clearly isn't working. The trauma i mentioned above is interwoven throughout the daily, monthly and yearly learnings and it can only build up another layer of resentment and alienation.
Anyway, cheers. Hope that clears up my perspective and where i'm coming from on it.Thanks southern i agree with your sentiments, education as jacinta price talks about, past present and future.
We want an answer to why and how we came to such state and wheres damoney gone?
The whole system needs a shake up especially the old canberra tent city angry bitter warped and twisted mob...please retire, they are the problem not the solution.
haha i see what you did there
Clearly we are not on the same page, not even reading from the same book.
Wishing you well all the same. You probably need it more than most.
yes...and??
southernraw wrote:sameaswas wrote:southernraw wrote:sameaswas wrote:southernraw wrote:sameaswas wrote:udo wrote:64% of oz agree with pauline, the n.t. election is proof(?).
Wow...true to form insult and put down in last sentence.
Netive titje means that b4 any development it MUST be given approval by the aboriginal owners
So the developers do a deal and have the ok and it's confidential??
There are "deals" done where neighbouring mobs contest the validity of the "process" and it creates division and animosity.
Fnp canberra ruleing elite are demanding $$$ % of profits for the mob only,This is not closeing the gap it is divisive and devious.
I"m guessing the swellnutter you mentioned above might be me @sameaswas? The reason i haven't gone down that road is it takes away from what i've said all along is the bigger issue of what came before the DV, that being the trauma. This thread was created to discuss if, what and how to make reparations for that past trauma. That's where my interest in the topic lays.
I actually agree with some of this particular post. Money will create division. Throwing money at a problem will never fix it and can only create more problems.
What i'm interested in, and what was a key part of the whole Voice campaign, was the education sector and finding a way that is more suitable and valid to teach young indigenous kids. Currently the only real option is the education system that we all went through, that caters to a Western ideology, and assumes the kids learning through it are from that Western outlook. But it's clearly not the case with young aboriginal kids and it clearly isn't working. The trauma i mentioned above is interwoven throughout the daily, monthly and yearly learnings and it can only build up another layer of resentment and alienation.
Anyway, cheers. Hope that clears up my perspective and where i'm coming from on it.Thanks southern i agree with your sentiments, education as jacinta price talks about, past present and future.
We want an answer to why and how we came to such state and wheres damoney gone?
The whole system needs a shake up especially the old canberra tent city angry bitter warped and twisted mob...please retire, they are the problem not the solution.
haha i see what you did there
Clearly we are not on the same page, not even reading from the same book.
Wishing you well all the same. You probably need it more than most.yes...and??
Apologies had one typed ut lost it....computer say no!
I remember...it was " to be expected, a put down and insult, naughty you.
I don't really understand your motivations @sameaswas.
To be honest, i think you're actually just here to stir the pot more than anything. Why, i'm not sure.
Anyway if you are actually serious, putting this line "specially the old canberra tent city angry bitter warped and twisted mob...please retire, they are the problem not the solution" is not going to endear yourself into any respectful debate with me. Which i'm sure you know.
So actually, naughty you. tut tut.
No respectable discussion from this end. either.
I simply don’t understand this reiteration of the same old ,,,,,,, blah,,,,, blah,,,,,,blah, find a job , stop drinking alcohol etc.
Look inside yourself and understand why these people are in this predicament.
Stop looking at it through rose coloured glasses. Drives me nuts.
But if you want to write reams of dialogue, go ahead, I’ll bore you with info and get RSI in my right arm and an elevated retina. Couldn’t be bothered really. AW
AlfredWallace wrote:No respectable discussion from this end. either.
I simply don’t understand this reiteration of the same old ,,,,,,, blah,,,,, blah,,,,,,blah, find a job , stop drinking alcohol etc.
Look inside yourself and understand why these people are in this predicament.
Stop looking at it through rose coloured glasses. Drives me nuts.
But if you want to write reams of dialogue, go ahead, I’ll bore you with info and get RSI in my right arm and an elevated retina. Couldn’t be bothered really. AW
Alfred i am not saying that, get a job etc.
We have had 40+yrs of the tent city activists running the show and it's worse than ever.
The 2 colleges being built for fnp in remote communities brilliant idea there was 3 planned and given approval by the previous govt and labor canned one when they took over...?
The biggest employer in the cntry is govt (or second?) and that includes n.g.o's .the last thing these ppl want is an audit on monies allocated to all things related to the fnp.
And how many swellnutters or their partners are on this fnp gravy train? and claim the high moral ground?
And me a troll? talk about the pot calling the kettle black...oops!
Southern i want change and improvement, out with the old "activists" and some new.
https://m.
Hey @sameaswas.
I understand your sentiments are in the right place, but where we differ is in the cause and effect argument. We're dealing with the effects without confronting the cause and dealing with that first.
You're creating, whether naively or purposefully a circular argument, in which the only solution is still a top down Westminster approach that keeps indigenous affairs as on a leash so to speak. 200years and in some ways things couldn't be worse.
I think you have to take a step back from comparing what 'they' get compared to 'us' and see a bigger picture drawn out over a bigger time frame and look at how we can address the same systemic problems that are in place that have kept a divide in place.
When i talk about education i'm talking about the proposition during the Voice referendum of a central body run by the indigenous leaders that was to cater for indigenous kids in a way that is different to the current model that enforces our way onto them. That's probably where we differ but i get you want to see good results for all regardless, and i respect that.
Maybe i'm too idealistic and your way of seeing things is more pragmatic, but i see unfairness and inequality in this space, and it's something that i feel at the very least needs to be acknowledged.
Thanks.
btw i wish i could find it but there was a great doco i watched once on taking kids from government schooling and putting them through a more traditional way of learning through their own culture and incorporating the English schooling into their learning this way. It was super successful, and anything that brings these young kids back closer to their cultural roots seems to be a huge success. I think eliminating that alienation and tying them back their sense of belonging is a huge psychological factor. There was also a program where young troubled indigenous kids were taken out bush and taken back to their traditional roots. Again, hugely successful. So the proof is there. Wish i could find where i saw it. I'll try.
If you havent seen the movie 'In my blood it runs' ..i think that's the title, it's a great watch and i'd highly recommend finding a way to watch it for a different perspective. It goes down that road a little bit too.
Just looked up the movie. Heres a link to it if you've got Netflix @sameaswas
https://www.netflix.com/search?q=in%20my%20blood%20it%20runs&jbv=81465127
@sameaswas wrote "Southern i want change and improvement, out with the old "activists" and some "
Me and you both mate, but unfortunately 64% of Australians voted against that change, yourself included.
Uni assignment i did a few years ago. This is my take on things. I'm sure this will ruffle many feathers. I hope so.
Love Blue Diamond x
The Necessity of Reparation for Historic Injustices
Introduction – Compensatory Justice
Disparities between the standards of living of humans on this planet have long been a part of our history on this planet. From the wealthy nations of the West to the developing and undeveloped nations on this globe, the diversity in the quality of life when viewed from a moral standpoint are without a doubt grossly unfair.
In this paper I will look at why historic injustices do require some form of reparation. I take a strong stance that we are more obliged to solve current injustices than to provide reparation for every act of injustice in the past. In doing this I will first investigate the historic injustice of the Aboriginal people of Australia and I will look at the argument that they are entitled to some form of reparation and why.
I will incoroporate some interesting views from Jeremy Waldron, Robert Nozick and others which will help me slowly build to my conclusion that reparation should be in the form of Non Indigenous Australians surrendering some of our priveleges as a form of reparation.
Historic Injustices to Indigenous Australians:
Australia the continent was well inhabited for many years long before white settlement. It is commonly known that in 1788 Australia was colonised as a country under the rule of the British Empire, with total contempt for the fact that it was already inhabited by a native indigenous race of people.
The way the original inhabitants have been treated, including forced assimilation, execution, stolen families and not even allowed to be recognised as citizens for a large part of white Australia’s history are also well known facts. (Poole, 1999,pp114-142)
There exists now a situation where there is a large divide between Aboriginal and non Aboriginal Australian’s that can be traced back to the moment Australia was invaded by English settlers and the brutal and unfair treatment that has followed.
So at this point now, in 2013 what is the just and fair way to make amends for past actions?
I would argue that a moderate to large amount of reparation is overdue for this nation of people, the Aboriginal people. But there are many challenges to this view point especially that of how much reparation, and what sort of compensation.
Past injustices or present suffering?
One of the questions raised in an issue like this is whether it is better to provide compensation or reparation for past deeds, which have already been done in a previous generation and cannot be changed, or whether it is better to now provide assistance to those who are suffering in their current situations and consider that as a form of moral duty.
To understand this we need to delve a little deeper into this issue and hear some differing viewpoints.
Firstly we need to understand what the best way to provide reparation. How do we judge what is the best way of giving back and how much? Jeremy Waldron states “The historic record has a fragility that consists, …in the sheer contingency of what happened in the past” (Waldron,1992,p5 )
This is saying that we can’t trace every single injustice back to the original act therefore reparation for every act would be almost impossible because it would ultimately be guess work.
In this statement he has an objection from Robert Nozick who believes it is in fact possible to address this problem by “changing the present so that it resembles how the past would have looked had the injustice not taken place” (McKenzie, 2013)
This would be a way to ultimately provide maximum reparation, but is it the correct approach? I believe this is a fairly radical approach, although it does have some merits in the fact it would be working in a positive way for indigenous people, I don’t think it is entirely the right way to deal with these issues but it is on the right track.
Waldron argues that it is based on too many unknowns. “The status of counterfactual reasoning about the exercising of human reasoning of human freedom is unclear”(Waldron 1993,p10)
Which leaves the question somewhat open about the sort of reparation that is required, but provides one clear answer to the key question. Both agree that yes, reparation to some extent is required. But how much and in what form?
Another philosopher who leans more towards Waldron’s views is Kymlicka. He is somewhat more straightforward in his assessment that property rights in particular for Aboriginals would create “massive unfairness” and also he maintains the argument “Aboriginal rights must be grounded in concerns about equality and contemporary disadvantage. (McKenzie, 2013) I agree with both these views but I don’t think they provide any active solutions.
The Solution?
So if its not handing back all of Australia’s land to the original inhabitants that is the most appropriate way to deal with past injustices, then what is?
I look at the current country I grew up in, as a white Australian. I ask myself why I never had Aboriginal friends growing up, no understanding of Aboriginal culture and why my basic understanding of Indigenous Australians is mostly 200 years old. I look at our flag, a symbol of a nation that stole a country from its original inhabitants, with no recognition of the Indigenous people at all on it. I see that Australia considered Indigenous people as less than people until only 40 years ago and I see the way that Indigenous Australians live a completely separate life to the way of life I know as an Australian. I see that the only indigenous politician I am aware of is a former Olympian and it is because of this fact of her sporting status that I know this. I see no collective power or representation of Indigenous Australians and I see non Indigenous Australians,( a culture built on a history of stealing a land and mistreating its people) still taking, taking as much out of this land as they can, with little to no regard of sharing or giving to the original inhabitants. I see a government that says lots of words about ‘closing the gap’ and bringing the living standards of non- indigenous and indigenous Australians closer together, but apart from nice words, there is no conviction, no follow through, just assimilation , and all that still remains are injustices.
As stated by Sparrow, “Continuity gives rise to responsibility on part of present generations of Australians for our history”.(McKenzie,2013). Although deeds happened in the past beyond our control, what we do now to either ignore, or rectify these issues will reflect on us in history. So if we choose to do nothing, we are contributing to the history of the mistreatment of non- indigenous Australians. And this is simply unacceptable in my opinion.
Conclusion
So what is fair? I believe that the way forward is a surrendering of some of our privileges as non- indigenous Australians. The simple fact is it was morally wrong without a doubt what has happened in the past. And it is also morally wrong without a doubt to ignore these facts and not offer some form of reparation in the present. But how much?
I think that going back to Robert Nozick’s argument is a start. I think Nozick is wrong to make the present resemble the past in every aspect. But I do think that it would be reasonable to restore some aspects of the way things should be. The things that happened in the past were out of our control and we can’t go back to changing the way things were. But we could change the way things are.
For some examples. Why not give at least 50% of political power to indigenous people? It surely would be a fair thing to do considering this is their country. Media control. 50 percent. Industry. Realestate. The list goes on. Why do we not acknowledge the indigenous people on our flag, or better still use their flag? Why is Australia still a part of the Commonwealth when it serves little purpose to any of us and serves as a constant reminder to Indigenous Australians that they are still controlled by the original invaders. These to me are fairly simple reparations that would have minimal impact on Australia as a whole. Perhaps, it would alter the way we live but I think it is our responsibility, morally to forfeit some of our privileges for the greater good. Basically a little bit goes a long way.
In closing, it is a fact that a huge injustice occurred to the Indigenous population and suffering continues to this day. There is no easy solution to such a burden of pain. I believe the only solutions are for the non- Indigenous population to take responsibility and sacrifice our own way of life to bring about an overall equality. Sacrifice is not an easy word. But it all comes down to right and wrong. We are in a position to give, in this current generation. What are we so scared to lose, that was never ours in the first place??
Bibliography
McKenzie,C.”Prof” (2013), Lecture, Historic Injustices and Indigenous Rights, Macquarie University
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28
References
Poole, R. (1999). Nation and Identity.Routledge, London, pp.114-142
Waldron,J. (1992). ‘Superseding Historic Injustice’. Ethics, 103 (1), 4-28