Australia - you're standing in it
Considering the Chinese Communist Party has only existed about as long as TV , when the cultural revolution tried to expunge the past in almost every possible way, yet they regularly lay claim to being a culture thousands of years old ,then I find their version of the truth to be quite underwhelming also.
"But imagine if Chinese civilisation has been in continuous existence for over 5000 years and has a population of 1.4b.
If these countries each have different interpretations of the world and its history, and have different worldviews, whose is most likely to be correct, on the correct side of history, and more accurate? Whose is most likely on the most shaky ground?"
I take your point GSCO.
But wouldn't it more accurate to state we are getting the world view from the CCP, which has only been in existence since 1949?
And has already attempted disastrous rewriting/rewiring of Chinese Cultural History (Cultural Revolution).
So it's 250 years versus 70 odd years.
Does that modify your position?
Interesting post gsco. Not sure that any one worldview is any more “correct” than another in the eyes of the individual and their lived experience, just a different interpretation.
gsco wrote:Imagine if everything you think you know about covid (and the world) has come from reading about it online...from growing up and living in Australia, from inside the American-UK echo chamber, proudly brought to you by the American-UK online media, American big tech and American-UK lies machine, which blanket smothers everything we in Australia know and have ever learnt about the world...
Imagine one's worldview if that was the case... Would it be accurate? Would it be biased? Would it just be what America/UK wants you to believe since it's just in their strategic, political, economic, military etc interests...
Now imagine if you grew up and lived in say Russia, or Iran, or China, or Saudi Arabia, or India, or Indonesia, or any Eastern European country...or...and everything you thought you knew about the world came from within their education systems and echo chambers. Imagine your worldview then... Would it be different to the current worldview you cling to and hold on to right now?
Imagine if nothing you know about the world is actually real or factual, but instead just what America wants you to believe, and that the overwhelming majority of the world's population actually believes something completely different to you, has a completely different interpretation of history to you, and has a completely different worldview than you? Whose beliefs and worldviews are correct?
Imagine if the US as a country/nation has only been around for about 250 years, and has a population of 330m...
But imagine if Chinese civilisation has been in continuous existence for over 5000 years and has a population of 1.4b.
If these countries each have different interpretations of the world and its history, and have different worldviews, whose is most likely to be correct, on the correct side of history, and more accurate? Whose is most likely on the most shaky ground?
Imagine if everything we think we know is just an UK-American illusion?
Do you really think you know anything at all about what's going on in the world?
Good comment.
China has lifted the vast majority of their huge population out of poverty, where could be argued the USA has put a lot of their population into poverty in the last generation or two.
CCP not real nice, but neither is USA, especially under Trump.
Julian Assange can vouch for that.
Know people who have spent a lot of time working in China, it seems the reality on the ground is vastly different than the image the western media push.
Now the richest country on earth, like it or not they are a world power on the rise where's USA seems to be on decline, both economically and socially....
Interesting times ...
https://m.
&t=532s
Freeride, well you could use the same argument for any major era of UK-US history, say the industrial revolution era, or the current online big tech internet AI era...or for any major political-economic ideological era in the US, say the current neoliberal capitalist era...
My point is people above are discussing say covid or China.
But what if everything they believe about covid or China has just come from just reading about it in the US-UK online media...? (Of course this is true...)
Is anything they think about these topics actually real or accurate...? (Of course it's not real or accurate, it's just what the US online media is saying...)
The Chinese don't believe for a second that covid started in China... But we all believe that it did since that's just what we're spammed by the US online media.
What if covid didn't actually start in China...? What if covid isn't even real in the sense that it's just another coronavirus along with all the others that have circulated for the past few hundred thousand years, and it's not really that deadly - it's just very highly scrutinised...?
On say China, what if everything we know about say Xinjian just came from us reading about in the US online media...? (Of course it does...). What if there is no genocide, or concentration camps, forced labour, re-education camps etc...?
In Australia, we all have to go to school and learn the Aus-US-UK curriculum, including learning English - and we don't learn the Iranian curriculum or become Muslim. What if the same is true in China - that you have to go to school and when you go to school in China you just learn the Chinese curriculum, Mandarin Chinese, Chinese society and culture... (Of course this is true). So what if the US is saying there are all these forced re-education camps in Xinjiang but this is a complete illusion, it's just that people, including Muslim Uighurs, have to go to school in China and learn Chinese curriculum, language, culture...?
Also, in Australia we kind of have to work to make a living and survive. What if it's the same in China...? (Of course it is...). So what if by "forced labour camps" that the US is spamming, it's just that Uighurs also have to go to work to make a living and survive and feed themselves, like anyone else in this world...?
Again, regarding Taiwan and the South China Sea: If you have a look at the surrounding waters/ocean of China, well it's just the South China Sea and East China Sea between China and Taiwan-Japan. So if the Chinese navy wants to practice, where else can it go to do it? The criticism of China's navy in these areas is no different to the say Australian navy being criticised for practicing in waters off Australia...
Everything we think we know about covid, China, etc, from the US-UK online media is a complete fabrication and illusion aimed at only aligning our hearts and minds to US policy objectives.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
The CCP deserve and should be called out for their bastardry.
Americans call it 'the Vietnam War', Vietnamese call it 'the American War'.
Same conflict, different points of view.
"Is anything they think about these topics actually real or accurate...? (Of course it's not real or accurate, it's just what the US online media is saying...)
The Chinese don't believe for a second that covid started in China... But we all believe that it did since that's just what we're spammed by the US online media."
Bullshit! FFS mate get out of your rabbit hole and have a look at the real world. The one in which the statistics on covid are wide open and every death and every case can be traced. The one in which there are multiple independent media sources across the world. I can watch NHK, and al-jazeera. I can read der Spiegel and The Jakarta Post. I can subscribe to Crikey and Schwartz media etc etc. But it's all controlled by the US and UK? Nah mate that is just your delusion. Yes you have to look at a variety of sources to find out what is happening and yes there are lots of things happening under high levels of secrecy but that does not mean that all media are unreliable. Thousands of investigative journalists put their lives on the line to produce the Panama and Pandora papers and you just brush off their work with a wave of your hand. Sad stuff.
blindboy wrote:"Is anything they think about these topics actually real or accurate...? (Of course it's not real or accurate, it's just what the US online media is saying...)
The Chinese don't believe for a second that covid started in China... But we all believe that it did since that's just what we're spammed by the US online media."
Bullshit! FFS mate get out of your rabbit hole and have a look at the real world. The one in which the statistics on covid are wide open and every death and every case can be traced. The one in which there are multiple independent media sources across the world. I can watch NHK, and al-jazeera. I can read der Spiegel and The Jakarta Post. I can subscribe to Crikey and Schwartz media etc etc. But it's all controlled by the US and UK? Nah mate that is just your delusion. Yes you have to look at a variety of sources to find out what is happening and yes there are lots of things happening under high levels of secrecy but that does not mean that all media are unreliable. Thousands of investigative journalists put their lives on the line to produce the Panama and Pandora papers and you just brush off their work with a wave of your hand. Sad stuff.
What if I can find an equal number of seemingly reputable studies and media articles from a large variety of seemingly reputable sources saying that the origins of covid are still completely up in the air and it may indeed be pointless still debating the idea and trying to get to the bottom of it...?
Alternatively, what if covid is just another variant/strain of coronaviruses that have circulated in the population for hundreds of thousands of years and this one is just very heavily scrutinised because it did in fact start in China, all started by the Trump administration as part of its war on China, and that even in very recent history there has been a large number of other coronavirus strains/variants that would have shown the same case/hospitalisation/death numbers etc if they were also scrutinised as heavily as covid...? So what if the world's response to this covid is completely arbitrary?
Are we being led by the US to war with China based upon US-UK fabrication and lies like we were with seemingly every other post WW2 US led war? Are you happy with and do you believe the premises upon which the US is seemingly trying to lead the world into war with China? Are you happy to follow the US into war with China?
Thucydides trap. The rising power faces off with the dominant power.
It's well to remember leading up to WW1 Germany had greater population, greater industrial output than Great Britain. GB saw them off (called in old alliances, went bankrupt in the process, but saw them off).
I would suggest gsco you've been immersed in their culture and so will have a strongly positive view of them, as many academics and business leaders in Australia/US do. This is not to put the people, or their long history down; there is great wisdom there and stuff like Qi Gong is really quite amazing. I have similar views of Japan, being sent there as a young student, and am very positive toward almost every thing Japanese. Especially Zen's train stories.
The Chinese have also been very clever, with defined long term strategic planning to dominate the world (it beats the election cycle, "go red/blue!"). I have linked their military strategy here before. Historically, they have an idea that payback is due for the Century of Humiliation - and so we should be wary of this. It wasn't me who wrote the 'Hun Speech', or delved into the Opium trade or gunboat diplomacy - I am a different soul to those who did that - and I'm damned if myself or children are paying for that. Furthermore, it was a collapse of dynasty within that lent to that tragic situation as well. The US elite has been incentivised really well by fat offshoring profits, and Dalio's thought provoking articles must be seen in this context. We would do well to remember that the US was mired in Depression and massively underutilised economically prior to 1941; I think they can unify and surprise to the upside.
Lastly, that fellow Stalin seems to run a country efficiently, I hear rumours of camps but surely the new International Man cannot be capable of such stuff? I guess we will only find out later (in Stalin's case, after Barbarossa started. The Ukranians welcomed the Germans with flowers, for example.)
If we decide not to go to war with China on UK/US propaganda, will war - or tribute - come to us?
As it stands I cannot see a war with China happening any time soon. The worst case for Australia, given the way it has behaved, is getting drawn into a proxy war somewhere like the Solomons. China has nothing to gain from a large scale war. It would struggle to invade Taiwan even if no other nations militarily supported it. The logistics are horrendous and would leave China vulnerable to a significant Indian incursion.
My view is that Australia needs to establish a much more independent foreign policy as the US is a waning power and increasingly politically unstable. The Republican Party has now committed to undermining the fundamental democratic processes by extending the gerrymander and further restricting voting rights in the areas of swing states that traditionally support the Democrats. The Democrats do not appear to have the leadership or courage to prevent this. That might change, but if it does not the US runs the risk of becoming virtually a single party state with the Republicans controlling both houses and the Presidency while being committed to maintaining their anti-democratic manipulation of the system through the appointment of local electoral officials and judges at all levels. All this is based on material readily available in relatively mainstream media. Don't shoot the messenger!
cool as, I'm just trying to make sense of what's going on in the world around me, and I value learning off everyone's opinions here.
velocityjohnno you said "I would suggest gsco you've been immersed in their culture and so will have a strongly positive view of them"
and above andy-mac said "Know people who have spent a lot of time working in China, it seems the reality on the ground is vastly different than the image the western media push"
yes I have a bit of a bipolar argument constantly going on in my head from growing up in the UK-US-Aus worldview and education, but spending a decent amount of the past decade or so living a pretty stock-standard daily life in China, learning Mandarin, watching Chinese tv and news, having lengthy conversations with my partner's extended Chinese family and hence getting engrossed in the Chinese worldview and perspective of current affairs and history.
On many (most?) issues these perspectives and worldviews are diametrically opposed to each other, but both seem as valid and correct as the other...
But I definitely can say that there is a massive disconnect between what the western media is saying about China and my personal experience inside the country. They're not the two same countries, governments or peoples.
gsco, I was fortunate enough to get to know a Chinese couple posted here to work in the consulate and learnt a lot from them. What impressed me most was learning how the economic progress of China was founded on the commitment to education and sheer hard work of ordinary people. I also saw this in many of the Chinese international students I taught. But say anything positive about China or the Chinese people and you tend to get labelled as an apologist. The one dimensional world view in which everything is black or white is common.
its not the chinese people or country.
Its the CCP. 2 very different things.
those who label some apologists for defending "china or chinese people" are no different to those who call people racists for criticising the CCP. both are dumb.
There's just something very weird happening in our media in terms of the constant very disrespectful bombardment of China bashing, abuse and hate. I genuinely can't really make out what's behind it.
It's also very lopsided and one-directional: directed by the West towards China. Internally, the Chinese media largely makes no mention specifically of the West at all, and seems to largely just very neutrally and factually report global events as they happen. (The funny and intentionally provocative Global Times website is of course a different story.)
I can't tell if the Western media's relentless attacking of China is because we've shifted towards a war footing against China with the US lies machine trying to influence our hearts and minds, or if it's just media sensationalism trying to get us frantically clicking on articles, or if it's driven by the US's eternal attempt to install Western style democracy, culture and capitalism across the globe for the benefit of the wealthy US elite...etc.
The West and Western media may fancy itself as some kind of benevolent global police "trying to hold China to account" for what it perceives as human rights abuses or other issues - like Xinjiang, Tibet, Taiwan, the South China Sea, Hong Kong, etc - but the hypocrisy of this makes me vomit in my mouth and my experience is that basically none of what the West is claiming as happening in China is actually true, at least in the out-of-context and sensationalised way it's being reported - it's more like the WMDs Iraq supposedly had... It would be a mistake to follow the US into war against China upon these premises.
I also don't understand the LNP's and Dutton's relentless attacking and disrespecting of China, and the beating up of potentially going to war against China. Is he aware of what he's actually saying and of the damage it's doing the Australia's relationship with China? Is he purposely, intentionally trying to completely burn our bridges and destroy our relationship with China?
The Western media and Dutton seem to be ignoring that China is just sitting there watching and taking note of everything that is happening and being said. In terms of our relationship with China, nothing positive is going to come out of the West's and Western media's relentless disrespectful bombarding and attacking of China. Have the lessons of history been forgotten?
I just don't get any of it. It doesn't seem wise. Going to war with China is definitely not wise.
gsco, cheers for all your comments, I think you bring some really good perspectives to the table here.
I think this is a bit beyond just the media; I think that there is a Defence element at play on both sides. Also to be pointed out, the machinations of governments on both sides are not the same as the people of both sides, but I think we all know this.
Here's an excellent example of a historian (UWA alumni) quantifying actual expansion; interesting to me as a History grad with interest in maritime history as he has made a decent attempt to quantify events and found conclusions from this approach. Overall, it speaks of a very long term policy of expansion:
gsco i think that analysis is highly one sided and dismisses the nefarious influential activities the CCP has been undertaking to compromise, corrupt and infiltrate our institutions, democracy and sovereignty over the recent decade in Australia
quality investigative journalism that I don't consider to be biased or agenda driven have highlighted this over recent years.
The CCP have acted like total bullies and against trade conventions and have demanded we kowtow to their demands.
I do agree that Dutton and co language of late has been over the top and political driven.
it took years for our democratic leaders to even acknowledge the above. now the libs have seen a political opportunity no doubt given the nearing of the election and the electorate being firmly in favour of rejecting the CCP's bullying.
Yet there's no acknowledgement of the CCP undiplomatic tantrums towards australia from the "CCP apologists". nevertheless - jets need to be cooled but we should as a nation reject the bullying and demands from the CCP.
Thanks velocityjohnno. I've actually previously watched that. There's a lot wrong with it:
1. It's from the perspective of the Western worldview.
2. It's simply more analysis aimed at building a case of discrediting China.
3. It's more discussion of potential war with China and paranoia of China's rise.
4. ...
5. It does the usual trick of shifting the focus:
It assumes and quickly overlooks an "already accepted" idea that the South China Sea territory is disputed, and thus tricks us into shifting the focus of the issue to China's assertiveness in the "disputed" area. But China does not for one second believe that the area is disputed, and if you read Chinese history books written in Chinese you'll see why.
The same trick happens with the origins of covid: the narrative assumes and immediately overlooks that it is "well accepted" that covid started in China and we are tricked by the focus of the issue being shifted to say China just won't allow the West to come in and "prove" it. But where covid started is up in the air.
The same trick happens with the Taiwan situation: The accepted and quickly overlooked assumption is that Taiwan is a separate and independent democratic country to China and we get tricked into the focus being shifted to Taiwan needs defending from China trying to take it back. But nearly every country in the world diplomatically recognises that Taiwan is part of China, including Australia. And China is not trying to invade Taiwan - it's actually the other way around: the US is trying to get its fingers into and control over Taiwan for strategic geographic, economic, technological and military etc interests.
It's just a standard warfare like propaganda tactic of diversions and distractions, of pulling he wool over one's eyes.
Seriously, every time I see some Western analysts with their Western worldview sit there and try to build a case discrediting China and making it look like China is doing something wrong in the world, I just vomit in my mouth again...
bonza wrote:gsco i think that analysis is highly one sided and dismisses the nefarious influential activities the CCP has been undertaking to compromise, corrupt and infiltrate our institutions, democracy and sovereignty over the recent decade in Australia
quality investigative journalism that I don't consider to be biased or agenda driven have highlighted this over recent years.
I can only repeat something you said: you read that in the Western media...
bonza wrote:The CCP have acted like total bullies and against trade conventions and have demanded we kowtow to their demands.
You also read this in the Western media. I think you'll find that the US and Aus started the dispute.
bonza wrote:I do agree that Dutton and co language of late has been over the top and political driven.
it took years for our democratic leaders to even acknowledge the above. now the libs have seen a political opportunity no doubt given the nearing of the election and the electorate being firmly in favour of rejecting the CCP's bullying.
Yet there's no acknowledgement of the CCP undiplomatic tantrums towards australia from the "CCP apologists". nevertheless - jets need to be cooled but we should as a nation reject the bullying and demands from the CCP.
If Dutton had his way we'd already be at war with China and there'd be a big hole in the ground where Australia used to be.
South China Sea is not disputed?
In July 2016, the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague issued its ruling on a claim brought against China by the Philippines under UNCLOS, ruling in favor of the Philippines on almost every count. While China is a signatory to the treaty, which established the tribunal, it refuses to accept the court’s authority.
It sounds disputed to me.
Or should we just blithely accept China's assertiveness over it's neighbours?
And Taiwan being a democratic country is "an assumption"?
I don't quite follow your logic here GSCO.
Taiwan, it’s polity and it’s people, declare themselves a sovereign democratic nation. Taiwan has never been unified with China.
This is not imposition of Western thought, it’s acceptance of a stated national decision by the citizens of Taiwan.
China’s thoughts on the issue hold no sway over the fact. The world only ever recognised Taiwan as a Chinese province at Chinese insistence and this holds true today.
It seems a bit ironic that it’s yourself who started discussion on this topic of conditioned thinking and yet you’re now regurgitating Chinese propaganda as evidence of US propaganda.
Ask the Taiwanese what they want….it’s their home.
And they say they’re not Chinese.
Freeride:
- Taiwan: the pertinent word was "separate" from China. Taiwan does do a relatively good job of maintaining a democratically elected government.
- South China Sea: conveniently disputed in our Western eyes but not in China's. To simplify things, China has been active in the area for over 5000 years. Is it not comical for the West to come along only relatively recently, create its own international laws in its favour and its own legal institutions to enforce those laws, and suddenly decide to try to tell China what to do in the area and basically take control of the area? Sounds a bit like how the UK claimed Australia, does it not...?
Blowin: I agree and wish Taiwan was given the full independence its people want. But that's not the world we live in. And it's not primarily what the US is aiming at, regardless of what it tries to convince us. US is aiming at China containment.
Yes gsco. i did read it the western media and I have formed my opinions around that. you are forming your views through your exposure to the Chinese media - which is controlled by a communist party.
at some point you gotta trust something otherwise you'll just go mad e.g. covid thread. i like to think i have enough critical thinking ability to determine right from wrong / truth vs false.
"If Dutton had his way we'd already be at war with China and there'd be a big hole in the ground where Australia used to be."
that is way over the top. dutton is playing to the home crowd. you really think he wants to go to war with china. come on. as you say - we would be a big steaming hole
Bonza yes of course he doesn't want to go to war, but if he's just playing to the home crown then he's opportunistically using the China issue for political gain with seemingly little to no regard for the actual long-term interests of Australia. But I guess that's just how politics works.
"Is it not comical for the West to come along only relatively recently, create its own international laws in its favour and its own legal institutions to enforce those laws, and suddenly decide to try to tell China what to do in the area and basically take control of the area?"
Aren't Indonesia, Phillipines, Vietnam, Japan etc etc parties to the dispute?
This dispute isn't a figment of western imagination, these are Chinese neighbours.
How do you think this dispute over the South China Sea looks to a Vietnamese fisherman?
China is a signatory to the Court of Arbitration.
gsco wrote:Bonza yes of course he doesn't want to go to war, but if he's just playing to the home crown then he's opportunistically using the China issue for political gain with seemingly little to no regard for the actual long-term interests of Australia. But I guess that's just how politics works.
yes and played by all as you pointed out earlier referencing the Global times. I guess the difference is that Australia means bugger all to the CCP so there is no long term damage to CCP interests apart from ensuring chinese expats keep their allegiances in check through witnessing the wrath of china when insulted. My opinion is Dutton favours his personal interest over Australia's long term interest but not sure how that is relevant to the argument of the CCP's shitfuckery within Australia.
Freeride. Yes the West is very proficient at creating a China threat in the eyes of many stakeholders and gaining their support for the West's strategic interests. Is that not the main US policy objective right now?
The West have done well at creating a picture of being some kind of benevolent country trying to stop the illegal Chinese aggression and assertion in the area for the benefit of all of humanity. Why can I not stop thinking about Team America...
Do you see China trying to stake some claim and legal or military authority over say the Mediterranean in Europe's backyard, or the Gulf of Mexico or the Caribbean Sea in the US's backyard?
What exactly is the West trying to do right there in China's backyard? Is it not just strategic China containment objectives and getting its fingers into the mineral and commodity resources under the ground in the region?
I think you'd have to ask the neighbouring countries if they regard the SCS as part of their territorial waters, not 5000 years ago, but right now. The 9 dash line is a relatively recent phenomenon.
But let's try to see this from the Chinese perspective (and I'll try): the entirety of the SCS should belong to China to
a) ensure safe maritime navigation for the volumes of trade China plies it's way in the world with
b) ensure that a hostile naval power cannot blockade the Chinese coast (also: belt and road to overcome this)
c) ensure that hostile naval powers cannot pick China apart as in the Century of Humiliation
The building of China's navy will allow China to project power into the 2nd and 3rd ring, thus keeping the 1st ring safe for maritime navigation for trade to and from China.
The Chinese method of world/regional dominance was quite benign, to give them credit. Military adventurism, not so much. Regional areas were asked to pay tribute, and their young and bright taken to Beijing to be educated, to return and govern, with a sympathetic eye to China. In return, they could have their role in the system of trade, and profit if they wished. A great example of this is the Okinawa chain, before the Japanese Satsuma clan decided maritime invasion was the way to go.
Taiwan: I believe the remains of the Kuomintang, the Chinese nationalist party, fled to Taiwan when their war against the Communists seemed lost. For this reason, there are old scores to be settled; if a 'rival' government of China still exists somewhere, the war is yet to be won.
Two forms of media, two different viewpoints. I find I go back to Mahan every single time. Or Mackinder, for that matter.
"Do you see China trying to stake some claim and legal or military authority over say the Mediterranean in Europe's backyard, or the Gulf of Mexico or the Caribbean Sea in the US's backyard?"
Belt and Road Initiative much?
South Central America
Africa and
the Pacific.
same strategy. different ( smarter) methods.
cash baby cash
gsco wrote:Bonza yes of course he doesn't want to go to war, but if he's just playing to the home crown then he's opportunistically using the China issue for political gain with seemingly little to no regard for the actual long-term interests of Australia. But I guess that's just how politics works.
Dutton is a brainless spud who’s China thrashings are more for his own interest than Australia’s . Though ironically enough his thrashings have indeed benefited Australia as has Scummocchio’s similar behaviour. Very much so.
China showed its true colours in response. Gone was the Sheep’s clothing under which the China apologists hide. Australia needs to detach from China in a big way, lest we become even more inveigled into collection of tributary states. We are already a vassal of the US, we don’t need the Chinese government thinking that the security of their resources in Australia is more valuable than the sovereign security of the Australian people.
sorry mate, you lost me.
Isn't Vietnam a Communist country and putative ally of China?
Or are they now part of this western policy objective?
To my research, Vietnam considers their access to South China Sea an existential issue that threatens their sovereignty.
Do you not think China's neighbours have concerns related to Chinese expansion in the South China Sea outside of western interests?
Those disputes between the bordering country stakeholders of the South China Sea have existed for all of time.
Isn't it opportunistically convenient that now the West is willing to come along and side with some of them and try to force out a longtime opponent and the largest player... Of course they're all scrambling to be part of it.
You said: "Or are they now part of this western policy objective?
Yes they currently very much are.
How fluid the diplomatic relations between nations can be as interests align and misalign over time...
You said: "Isn't Vietnam a Communist country and putative ally of China? Neither Vietnam or China are communist...
Really?
How would you categorise them then?
Damn western media.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/10/5/malays...
https://thediplomat.com/tag/malaysia-south-china-sea-policy/
https://asean.org/declaration-on-the-conduct-of-parties-in-the-south-chi... This is from 2012, and includes specific reference to:
HEREBY DECLARE the following:
1. The Parties reaffirm their commitment to the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, the Treaty of Amity and Cooperation in Southeast Asia, the Five Principles of Peaceful Coexistence, and other universally recognized principles of international law which shall serve as the basic norms governing state-to-state relations;
2. The Parties are committed to exploring ways for building trust and confidence in accordance with the above-mentioned principles and on the basis of equality and mutual respect;
3. The Parties reaffirm their respect for and commitment to the freedom of navigation in and overflight above the South China Sea as provided for by the universally recognized principles of international law, including the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea;
4. The Parties concerned undertake to resolve their territorial and jurisdictional disputes by peaceful means, without resorting to the threat or use of force, through friendly consultations and negotiations by sovereign states directly concerned, in accordance with universally recognized principles of international law, including the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea;
5. The Parties undertake to exercise self-restraint in the conduct of activities that would complicate or escalate disputes and affect peace and stability including, among others, refraining from action of inhabiting on the presently uninhabited islands, reefs, shoals, cays, and other features and to handle their differences in a constructive manner
You’ve been stooged gcso.
roughly the same way as wiki: mixed economies with capitalist and socialist elements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Vietnam: "Since the mid-1980s, through the Đổi Mới reform period, Vietnam has made a shift from a highly centralized command economy to a mixed economy."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_China: "The economy of the People's Republic of China is a developing market-oriented mixed economy...the economy also consists of a large domestic private sector and openness to foreign businesses"
I'd more accurately categorise China as a nondemocratic capitalist economy where state owned enterprises directly compete in the market with private companies, with varying degrees of success.
I have no direct personal experience in the Vietnamese economy.
gsco wrote:Those disputes between the bordering country stakeholders of the South China Sea have existed for all of time.
I think you’re missing that the catalyst for action has been the militarisation, against the agreement made in 2012, of reclaimed atolls in the spratleys, paracels, and the coercive use of power to enforce non-legal baseline claims.
Or is that the US again?
.
Well, back in the day the Brits, the French, Spanish, Dutch and Portuguese competed for territories… Allegiances formed, enemies and loyalties and intentions constantly switched and swayed back and forth…
Amongst all the debauchery, thievery, murder and conquest there was another side of the world where different empires ruled and fell and rose again.
After the west invaded China in the time of the opium wars the country of China was severely diminished socially and economically as a result.
Through numerous and repeated incidents of western colonial intervention the Portuguese got Macau, Dutch and Spanish had colonies in Taiwan… English and French rule dictated trade at major ports etc. The process of expansion under the guise of trade through military conquests came at a huge cost to the indigenous inhabitants of all countries whether it be Africa, Asia or … dear ol straya ;);)
So now a bit of white mans guilt may be kicking in ;);) All these white ol strayan fellas on their surfing website reckon they know what’s in store ahead…
Wonder how many have sat with Chinese people… How many have shared meals together, conversed and laughed and had a wonderful time together as humans…
Coz we don’t know what China is. Trust me. It’s not the CCP. Just like Australia is not the NLP. All this posturing and bickering and political bullshit is exactly just that. Don’t support or get invested emotionally in either side. The Chinese people don’t want war, we don’t want war. The common theme is two extremely unstable leaders at the head of two separate corrupt entities.
China has a rich traditional culture with values we here in this country share. Different cultures, different language, same basic strengths…
We are maybe a bit scared for what our kids and grandkids may face.
Are we responsible for the historical carnage of the past. No.
If you were Chinese would you feel aggrieved and possibly develop patriotism when reflecting on the seemingly brutal past events involving invading forces whether they be western or, even Japanese, for example.
Do some real searching into the historical facts of China and the west and the rich and long relationship - good and bad. Try understand the Chinese perspective…
If you were now on the cusp of getting the upper hand will u play it? Should you?
How come the west, with its track record of incessant and often unnecessary military expansion and conquest, is crying out bout fairness and ‘protecting interests’ etc?
We can dish it out but don’t like to even perceive a threat, let alone confront it.
Forget the historical stuff … How did the modern stuff pan out ;) Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan etc the list goes on.
Is it our turn to be on the receiving end? Do we deserve it? It’s tough when we can’t quite manipulate everything to our liking. And what if an emerging superpower wants to protect its interests. I mean, we do that!
So, in the meantime… hit yum cha ;) maybe read some Chinese literature before they were ruled by CCP cockheads. Try a traditional Chinese martial art even ;);)
Or just believe the bullshit we are fed no different to how it’s done to the Chinese people. Two sides of the same coin.
Maybe we forgot we rely on China and they rely on us. Maybe we know the west has set quite an example over time when it comes to power and intent. Maybe they will have a bigger gun one day and we’re used to being the one with the big gun ;);)
We don’t know. That’s the only thing we can all farkn agree on. Great insights gsco. Go meet some Australian Chinese fellas ;);) There are quite a few here;) There are also nice people in China.
Sometimes friends become enemies and then become greater friends. Australia may be able to achieve this. It’s difficult with the US involved but it’s also nice if u think somebody has your back.
Anti China rhetoric is like happily waving a flag of support wif sco mos farked up face on it. Don’t believe our state sanctioned propaganda. It’s no different to the CCP.
The west is only trying to clean up a mess it has been contributing to for a while and when you make rules but break them yourself it’s hard to call others out on it.
Blowin wrote:Australia needs to detach from China in a big way, lest we become even more inveigled into collection of tributary states. We are already a vassal of the US, we don’t need the Chinese government thinking that the security of their resources in Australia is more valuable than the sovereign security of the Australian people.
I 100% agree with you in the sense that my actual opinion is Australia should detach from the whole US-China dispute altogether and be neutral.
We're wading into a massive pile of shit we don't have the boots for.
We should sit silently on the sidelines here instead of trying to be some big global player.
In the scheme of things we're complete nobodies and should recognise that.
We should know our place before we embarrassingly get put back in it.
gsco wrote:Blowin wrote:Australia needs to detach from China in a big way, lest we become even more inveigled into collection of tributary states. We are already a vassal of the US, we don’t need the Chinese government thinking that the security of their resources in Australia is more valuable than the sovereign security of the Australian people.
I 100% agree with you in the sense that my actual opinion is Australia should detach from the whole US-China dispute altogether and be neutral.
We're wading into a massive pile of shit we don't have the boots for.
We should sit silently on the sidelines here instead of trying to be some big global player.
In the scheme of things we're complete nobodies and should recognise that.
We should know our place before we embarrassingly get put back in it.
Our 9 submarines will change the balance some time around 2050 though....
We will be somebody then!
Seriously though, Australia is playing a dangerous game big noting ourselves against China. Likely Trump will be president again in 2024, and I doubt he would come to our help if needed, unlikely Biden administration would help for that matter ..
China might want to prove their new military might using Australia as an example...
Unlikely maybe, but if a small kid is a smart arse long enough having a go at the big kid bully, eventually the bully may give the little kid a bloody nose...
Mega phone diplomacy probably not best strategy for Australia's national interest.
blindboy wrote:"Is anything they think about these topics actually real or accurate...? (Of course it's not real or accurate, it's just what the US online media is saying...)
The Chinese don't believe for a second that covid started in China... But we all believe that it did since that's just what we're spammed by the US online media."
Bullshit! FFS mate get out of your rabbit hole and have a look at the real world. The one in which the statistics on covid are wide open and every death and every case can be traced. The one in which there are multiple independent media sources across the world. I can watch NHK, and al-jazeera. I can read der Spiegel and The Jakarta Post. I can subscribe to Crikey and Schwartz media etc etc. But it's all controlled by the US and UK? Nah mate that is just your delusion. Yes you have to look at a variety of sources to find out what is happening and yes there are lots of things happening under high levels of secrecy but that does not mean that all media are unreliable. Thousands of investigative journalists put their lives on the line to produce the Panama and Pandora papers and you just brush off their work with a wave of your hand. Sad stuff.
100% Blind Boy one of your better post (the next one sucked though)
I mean the world is in no way controlled by the USA media, the media landscape is more global and diverse than anytime in history both mainstream media or independent.
But it's different in China where the government severely restricts online media and its own media, I mean FFS even Google is blocked, hence why Chinese people believe conspiracy theories of Covid starting in the USA when there is no evidence to support this and all the evidence to support it starting in China.
andy-mac wrote:Likely Trump will be president again in 2024
You really think so?
I think his chances are really low, but hope im wrong, love the entertainment factor.
Jelly Flater wrote:Well, back in the day the Brits, the French, Spanish, Dutch ….
Anti China rhetoric is like happily waving a flag of support wif sco mos farked up face on it. Don’t believe our state sanctioned propaganda. It’s no different to the CCP.
The west is only trying to clean up a mess it has been contributing to for a while and when you make rules but break them yourself it’s hard to call others out on it.
Nice post Jelly.
indo-dreaming wrote:andy-mac wrote:Likely Trump will be president again in 2024
You really think so?
I think his chances are really low, but hope im wrong, love the entertainment factor.
I hope I am wrong, but it seems that the GOP is getting everything in place to ensure they win next election. Do not claim solid understanding, but some of the things I've read regarding their supreme Court appointments and electoral law changes appear to be dangerous to their democracy....
Again hope I am wrong, as for all its problems, I still see the USA as the best world role model ...
In terms of China, Australia needs to move on quickly from its current position of outright hostility. It is not so long ago that we had a positive relationship with China generated by our mutually beneficial trading relationship. This was deliberately undermined by the Morrison government for their short term political benefit but to the detriment of many hard working Australians. I imagine groundswell could tell a few stories about the impact of that on the cray fishing industry! Then there is wine, barley etc etc. Equally significantly where we once had some very small influence on China, at least to the extent that they listened to what we had to say even if it was ignored
now our influence is less than zero and China has shown it will act against our interests if the cost to them is small. The only positive in this is that there is still hope the relationship has not been irreparably damaged and that, with a change of government and a change in the rhetoric, it can be rebuilt. Occupying the high moral ground is worth the cost if it produces some effect. There is no hope of that in our current circumstances.
Street runs both ways.
Australia made sensible decisions on Huawei and foreign interference laws.
China reacted with wolf-warrior diplomacy and naked economic coercion.
Yes, downscaling the rhetoric would be helpful first step.
GSCO the way you back China is disturbing to the the point of treason I ask this
question are you a westerner a Chinese sympathiser maybe of Chinese heritage
or just take all the benefits Australia provides suck out all the good of this country
but have zero western values and decency. Whatever you are im not impressed.
Focus on modern history folks (post early 1900,s) as that has the most relevance.
Chairman Mao Tse Tung who only died in 1976 was responsible for the direct death and famine that wiped out as many as 50 MILLION or more of his own people.
No comparison in the West.
The Chinese Communist Party are an evil bunch of bastards with NO scruples.
We should all be giving them as much grief as possible.
Fuck them and anyone who supports them! GGRRRRRRRRRRRR!
The "I can't believe it's not politics" thread.